Can't understand the hangup here..

[Andover1]

The concept that you can't have a strong running game with Golson at QB is again "silly". The best rushing season in the last decade of ND was with Golson at QB....a fact that's somehow being overlooked here.

The success or failure of the run game will have more to do with the strength and mentality of the OL and the RB than it will with the QB selction. If the OL plays with the same mentality that they did in 2012, or in the 2014 Stanford, FSU, or LSU games...the run game will be strong (with Golson or Zaire)
The knee/hand injury of Martin plus his position switch, the size/quality of Hegarty, the injury of Lombard, and inexperience/development of Elmer all limited and hurt the OL in 2014, as did the general mentality of the OL...they need to get back to the consistency and mentality they had in 2012 (and showed occasionally in 2014)....and the good news for ND is that on paper that looks very probable

Somehow, Golson's erratic/poor performances in some of the late season 2014 games are being counted...but his strong/efficient performances in other 2014 games and 2012 games are being dismessed.... very "silly"

Additionally, many fans are completely sold on a QB who opperated an offense successfully/efficiently for 2 quarters (but even in that was VERY far from perfect, and had a turnover on downs)

This constant desire to move on from an experienced, proven, talented QB...just to see if the next QB is a Luck/Winston/Manziel combo is EXTREMELY "SILLY" especially when you have an offense packed with experience and talent, most notably in the passing game

Lastly, the concept of improving the run game by "forcing" the team to run...bc you go to a QB who is less developed as a passer...is completely backwards
You want to have a powerful, successful run game in addition to having a QB who's an incredibly developed, capable, and willing passer (see Ohio State with Barrett/Jones instead of Miller)





I want the best QB to start
The best QB is whoever shows in spring/fall camp, practice, and then games that he is the best
This should include all areas (passing, running, knowledge, leadership, etc.) but they're not all eighted equally and a QB's job, first and foremost, is to pass the ball

Whoever wins the job is my QB...but I'm definitely hoping that the QB with the signifcant game experience and developed passing tools (not to mention signifcant athletic/running ability) ends up being the one who steps up and claims the job...as I think that's where the ceiling for this team is the highest




This thread has impressed me with it's lack of real basis in fact and willingness to jump to very "silly" conclusions

 

[perseverare]

being fans is not an empiricle science.

But you seem to fail to realize that your contentions are no more factual than any other contentions.

The thread put forth opinions and it prompted discussions from any perspective; and usually opinion is anything but factual.

Example: Fans might conclude that MZ started vs LSU because the staff felt MZ gave ND the best chance for victory; that he could execute their game plan better than EG. One might form an opinion that EG's play based on his body of work contributed to that decision. But such conclusions, inspite of the actual happening, does not mean either of those contentions are "fact".

 

[Andover1]

Originally posted by perseverare:
being fans is not an empiricle science.

But you seem to fail to realize that your contentions are no more factual than any other contentions.

The thread put forth opinions and it prompted discussions from any perspective; and usually opinion is anything but factual.

Example: Fans might conclude that MZ started vs LSU because the staff felt MZ gave ND the best chance for victory; that he could execute their game plan better than EG. One might form an opinion that EG's play based on his body of work contributed to that decision. But such conclusions, inspite of the actual happening, does not mean either of those contentions are "fact".

All opinions are NOT made equal, because all opinions (unfortunately) aren't based in facts. When a person starts tossing out opinions that fly in the face off all comments and assessments made by those closest to a situation...they're not as valid or acceptable as opinions made utilizing those facts and all other facts available

Opinions like:
"We can't have a great run game with Golson, we'll be pass happy" are in fact very "silly" because the best rushing offense ND has had in over a decade came with Golson at the helm...so clearly he can facilitate a great rushing offense
Or
"Zaire showed me all I need to see, he's great!" is a "silly" opinion, because he only played 2 really good quarters of football
(so far) and actually passed for LESS THAN 100 YARDS IN THE ENTIRE LSU GAME...that's simply nowhere near proven
Or
"Zaire started the LSU game because of his body of work" is a "silly" opinion because Kelly made it VERY clear that he was starting Zaire because of the style of play they needed to protect and injured defense from a power-run oriented offense, and that the decision had no barring on the 2015 starting QB
Or
"Zaire has shown better passing skills than Golson" is a "silly" opinion, when every pro scout watching the film has said that Golson clearly has more arm strength, more accuracy, better touch, and a better deep ball...and every ND "insider" has said he's far ahead in the competition this spring because of his superior passing skills and polish (at the moment)
Or
"Golson isn't a mentally tough QB, who can win when the games are tough" is a "silly" opinion because Golson has 8 wins by 1 TD or less. Read me a list of the QBs who have more than 8 of those and are starting in 2015...and I'm sure you'll see for yourself that they're few and far between, and almost all top 2015 QBs
Or
Etc., etc., etc.

As I've said, you're welcome to your opinion...but the uninformed, unintelligent, and "silly" nature of most of the opinions expressed so far in this thread are nothing short of amussing.
There are tons of reasons to like Zaire, as he's a very talented and promising young QB prospect...but that doesn't make the reasoning in this thread any less "silly"...

 

[perseverare]

wasted effort: you will never get it.

You may need to move to a "more perfect board" , worthy of your devine insights".

(btw: you both mis read and mis-quoted to such an extent that the entire meaning of a sentence was distorted)




This post was edited on 4/1 7:54 AM by perseverare

 

[IowaIrish1]

We can all have the argument without tearing down EG or past guys like Rees. Rip on BK all we want, but try to keep the thoughts on players civil. I've done it in the past also, but do regret those words.


I think one reason many fans are a fan of MZ is his ability to be a tough runner and looks to be able to handle 10-12 set runs a game. Also, he seems to have a contagious positive personality.

 

[Andover1]

Originally posted by perseverare:
wasted effort: you will never get it.

You may need to move to a "more perfect board" , worthy of your devine insights". (btw: you both mis read and mis-quoted to such an extent that the entire meaning of a sentence was distorted)



This post was edited on 4/1 7:54 AM by perseverare

I would like to hear you "explain it", while basing the argument in fact...and not ignoring the majority of the important facts (like the best ND rushing attack in a decade came with Golson at QB)

If your argument is "I like the way Zaire carries himself more" or "I want to switch back to the offense that Holtz ran and I think Zaire will do that" then those are at least opinions that you can stand behind (whether or not they're strong opinions)

A lot of the opinions expressed so far in this thread simply don't stand up to basic, verifiable facts

 

[perseverare]

^

The issue is that many feel that the QB "auditions" in 'practice' may favor one guy over another; however there is one guy where there is far more info to form an evaluation of under game conditions. MZ nor DK have neither advantage/burden.

Also, many are convinced that the style of play will be affected by 'who' the QB is. One thinking is EG brings the "pass 1st" offense and the other is that MZ brings a more fundamental power based offense. I think that is the passion of the discussion.

ND has enough talent that regardless of the QB, the offense should be effective and proficient enough to score pts per game > 30.

The fear seems to be 'if nothing changes, then nothing changes'.

 

[onlyonenow]

just ignore perse. He is like the blind man that thinks he can see.

 

[Andover1]

Originally posted by perseverare:
^

The issue is that many feel that the QB "auditions" in 'practice' may favor one guy over another; however there is one guy where there is far more info to form an evaluation of under game conditions. MZ nor DK have neither advantage/burden.

Also, many are convinced that the style of play will be affected by 'who' the QB is. One thinking is EG brings the "pass 1st" offense and the other is that MZ brings a more fundamental power based offense. I think that is the passion of the discussion.

ND has enough talent that regardless of the QB, the offense should be effective and proficient enough to score pts per game > 30.

The fear seems to be 'if nothing changes, then nothing changes'.

So right now you're trying to use 2 years of extensive game experience as a negative in starting Golson?
You realize that no coach at any level of football would ever even consider that opinion for 1 second, right??

You then go on to argue that Zaire doesn't have much starting experience or "in game proof" and isn't the better "practice auditioner" (which really boils down to be the better QB day in and day out, with the team, in practice) but you still want to start him...based on...???
You really put such a heavy weight on 2 good quarters in a bowl game (against a team that had no film on Zaire) that you think it outweighs extensive game experience and the better QB in all the practices?

As for the "we can't run the ball effectively/powefully" without Zaire...did you watch 2012?
That was the first season we averaged 200+ rushing yards a game in well over a decade...remind me, who was the QB? Do you think that QB suddenly changed and now disables the run game, or that other differences in the run game and the team at large (OL, RB, TE, reliability of defense, etc.) from 2012 are likely major contributing factors??

If people just thought as your suggesting:
"Well Clausen turned the ball over a lot Year 1 and Year 2, the team was super young then and now it's experienced...but that doesn't matter, let's pull him!"
We would then have replaced a QB who went on to throw 28 TD / 4 INT, had a Comp % of near 70%, and averaged over 300 yards per game.
The other factors in the team matter a lot

Again, there is nothing wrong with wanting Zaire to win the QB competition this spring and fall...but you need to express some opinions that are actually based in fact
Almost all of the opinions expressed in this thread so far don't fall into that category...and are extremely "silly"

 

[john0gaunt]

Welcome to the board Andover. Some complain it has gotten much worse in the last few months, I'm not so sure.

One note of caution, I've been reading the posters here for a while and it's likely the guy you're arguing with is a trojan fan. If you notice, his ND comment always include a negative component and he often compares positively to trojans.

If that's the case, you're feeding a troll.

Go Irish!

 

[perseverare]

What happens is points you make get lost due to the narcissistic presentation. The fact is there are no facts for emotional opinion: you are no more correct nor authoritative than any other poster. There, there is a fact for you.

And you continue to have reading comprehension issues. If you are too busy thinking of what you are going to say then you will not take consideration of what is accurately actually be conveyed.



Seems any topic suffers the same fate: a poster will eventually appear that claims to have the ultimate truth and all other opinions are "silly".


How silly is that?



So, done here; you have the floor for the last word(s).

This post was edited on 4/1 1:08 PM by perseverare

 

[onlyonenow]

perse you are worth this much effort. (0) In other words that even you can understand, very little.