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Can't understand the hangup here..

I

irishcatman

Posts Like A Champion
Dec 5, 2004
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This is what drives me nuts about BK, for some reason he's tied to this Everette Golson ship and it's a flop...He should've benched EG during the UNC game forever..The kid just isn't mentally tough enough to win a championship..Did BK watch how MZ gutted out that win against LSU??

For crying out loud once and for all DUMP GOLSON give the reins to MZ and put Kizer as the backup..at 6'4" the guy has a rocket arm AND can run..and he's got to have a higher football IQ than EG..

There problem solved..
 
EG was, like TR, Kelly's student from the start. EG was tutored by Kelly while MZ was working with Lefleur. I don't think that MZ was ever thought to be the "future". MZ is slowly impressing the staff, but he is climbing an uphill road The problem facing the staff is win now and still plan to have two experienced QB's in 2016.

We read about the 'improvements' , "new attitudes" "focus on fundamentals" ; but like a prize fighter, once the hit is taken, most likely you get what you had gotten.

So who's your guy when the going gets tough?
 
Originally posted by irishcatman:
This is what drives me nuts about BK, for some reason he's tied to this Everette Golson ship and it's a flop...He should've benched EG during the UNC game forever..The kid just isn't mentally tough enough to win a championship..Did BK watch how MZ gutted out that win against LSU??

For crying out loud once and for all DUMP GOLSON give the reins to MZ and put Kizer as the backup..at 6'4" the guy has a rocket arm AND can run..and he's got to have a higher football IQ than EG..

There problem solved..
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The UNC game would have been a bit early to bench him, but Arizona State would probably have been my limit, and USC would have certainly shown me more than enough. Guy can make some great plays, but he can make even more bad plays.
 
a poster on another irish board said that he got to watch the team practice the other day in live drills wearing pads and he said that except for a couple of bad throws that golson by far looked better throwing sharp crisp accurate passes most of the day while mz really struggled. he said mz over threw players and basically just missed on a lot of throws
 
^ some guys are great practice players; MZ is NOT one of those guys.
The thing is, remember when TR put on a few pounds and there was talk of improved arm strength and yada yada ....
Then the games began and ? Was anyone suprised, He was a Sr! He was what he was! Great heart but lesser physical talents. After a 4 year audition, EG is a known commodity. He has a v good passing arm, is an ordinsry runner, is not a great leader, he has at times tuned out his HC and other staff, he "mailed it in" against the traditional rival..... Giving up on games and teammates is like the 'unforgivable sin' in football. BUT, I am not in the locker and only the players know who they trust.

Your the HC: are you 'all in with EG' ; and then what about '16? Have you lost MZ? Where is your experienced #2?

This is the 5% question!
 
Originally posted by coolirish9:

a poster on another irish board said that he got to watch the team practice the other day in live drills wearing pads and he said that except for a couple of bad throws that golson by far looked better throwing sharp crisp accurate passes most of the day while mz really struggled. he said mz over threw players and basically just missed on a lot of throws
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What coolirish said is the bottom line. I have heard many who have watched practices and they all say that Golson wins hands down. But how do we get that to translate into games?
 
Having coached Prep school tennis teams for many years,there were kids that really brought it in practice but in a match game setting folded their tents. It appeared that the game became too fast for them and they just unraveled !!!! Out of the relaxed atmosphere of a practice session and into the frying pan with many decisions to be made !!!!

I just like the composure of MZ when he is on the hot seat. EG seems to get his butt burned too often !!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Originally posted by irishcatman:
This is what drives me nuts about BK, for some reason he's tied to this Everette Golson ship and it's a flop...
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Lot's of people said the same thing about BK and Tommy Rees.

Go Irish! Beat UK!
 
I would bet Sanford will watch and re-watch every actual game snap that EG has taken before making a decision; the question who makes ultimate the decision is the big question?

There is Kelly, Quinn (advisor) and the OC Sanford in the decision loop. You can bet the ultimate decision will be presented as if it were unanimous

If EG is named the starter and things revert to the things seen in the last part of '15 then what? Will harmony continue?


.




This post was edited on 3/28 4:11 PM by perseverare
 
Easy way to put it.

If EG is the starter, then 1/2 the board will be upset and will yell for MZ any and every time EG makes any misstep.

If MZ is the starter, then 1/2 the board will be upset and will yell for EG any and every time MZ makes any misstep
 
Remember the game is DEF , OFF and Special teams in no particular order. It's not Golson, Golson and Golson. .
The ultimate team game. Don't sell out Golson just yet. MZ is terrific but so is Golson. VS. FSU he was a Heisman Candidate . If they win that game who knows the outcome . VS. ASU . The gameplan was shit. The oline sucked and the DEF sucked at the end when ND Needed one more stop. VS Northwestern The RB fumbles or they win . They could have been 9-1 going into the Louisville game which BTW a FG kicker missed a chip shot. ... vs USC it was over .
Let the best man win but remember this they both QB for the team we all love so why crap on him ??? No hangup IMO. The only hangup BK has maybe his play calling duties that I wish he would relinquish.
 
time to do it on the field; w/o excuse. That does not necessarily mean a great record; but just play like a well coached discipline team that does not consistantly shoot itself in the foot.
 
Wow...knowing that EG looked great IN PRACTICE??? .... ((Golf clap))..the guy has zero football IQ and is just SOFT..
 
Originally posted by irishcatman:
Wow...knowing that EG looked great IN PRACTICE??? .... ((Golf clap))..the guy has zero football IQ and is just SOFT..
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zero ? and you know this how ?
 
Originally posted by echowaker:

Originally posted by irishcatman:
Wow...knowing that EG looked great IN PRACTICE??? .... ((Golf clap))..the guy has zero football IQ and is just SOFT..
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zero ? and you know this how ?
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Umm because I watched him play last season THAT'S HOW!!
 
This thread is silly and uninformed

At the moment it's likely that Golson is the best QB on our roster and will be the start in 2015, and rightly so.
He definitely has the potential to lead us to a BIG TIME 2015 season

Zaire has a lot of tools, and a love his personality, but he needs to do a lot of developing on his passing mechanics and understanding of the offense (outside of the zone-read and option)

Having both Golson and Zaire compete for the job (pushing each other), and ideally being able to make use of both of them during the 2015 season...is the ideal situation for ND
 
^ excuse me being verbose is not necessarily being informed. I suggest you take what you wish and leave the rest.
What we do not need is another judgemental opinionated voice that thinks that any idea contrary to his or her own is "silly"; I find such a narcissitic perspective "silly".

Agree or don't agree; but the poster has a right! That right is equal to yours and....
Over and over is clearly not a place.






This post was edited on 3/29 4:26 PM by perseverare
 
Golson is one of the more gifted QB's ND has had in a long time. Kelly's handling of him last year was terrible. He destroyed his confidence - by year end completely. Just very bad coaching. Period. People forget easily that Golson was away a year. With only his 1st year, Freshman year as experience. If Kelly can stay far away and just let someone work with him whose first response isn't to start yelling in his face, maybe something good can come from this. Zaire is not a solution. Bad arm, mechanics, unable to see the field and an attitude and ego that can destroy a locker room. His first instinct is to run - always, run. Thats why the real battle will be between Kizer and Wimbush for #2 and #1 in 2016. I've always been impressed with Kizer, but Wimbush is very similar. Interesting to see which one emerges.
 
Howard
I have no conviction as to MZ's cieling, however There have been QB's that look as you described: Billy Kilmer and Joe Kapp as examples.
Some QB's are just not eye candy.
From the years Golson has been at ND we know he is a great practice QB. In 2022 he was NOT great; in 2013 he was suspended; in 2014 in the 2nd half of the season he was awful.
No one should be convinced he is a great QB based on his play or during game observations. Who knows if he can rebound from 2014; it is yet to be seen.
 
In full disclosure I want MZ to start

But that said I have to ask, why is it okay to draw on the last half of last year when Golson didn't play well, but not mention the first half of last year when he played well above average?

Just seems like drawing on the negative while missing the positive.
 
IB

the 2nd half of the season was the more difficult part of the season. The second part of the season was gut check time. The second part of the season was the most recent part; it also included the USC debacle. The USC effort was one that will linger when thoughts about EG are conjured up.
He has to prove that that was an abberation. He needs to show his HC respect.
 
Every game is difficult. Some are just more difficult.

You choose to remember the second half of the season. That doesn't make it more important. Just easier for you to make your point.
 
and I guess you choose to believe that;
for me I still consider it a matter of "when the going got tough...."
If EG starts strong again...everyone will be waiting for the other shoe to drop; let him prove he can do it on the field.
 
Originally posted by perseverare:
^ excuse me being verbose is not necessarily being informed. I suggest you take what you wish and leave the rest.
What we do not need is another judgemental opinionated voice that thinks that any idea contrary to his or her own is "silly"; I find such a narcissitic perspective "silly".

Agree or don't agree; but the poster has a right! That right is equal to yours and.... Over and over is clearly not a place.



This post was edited on 3/29 4:26 PM by perseverare
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You have a right to post your opinion, as does everyone.

I have the right to point out that many/most of the opinions being expressed in this thread are either:


Not taking into account all the facts Cherry picking facts Simply not based logic nor what we've seen from practice and games
Some of the reasons I'm saying that this thread is "silly"...


It's "silly" to try to dismiss Golson's performance in 2012, leading the team to a 12-0 season and the NC game It's "silly" to try to dismiss Golson's first 6-8 games of this season, leading a young team to a great start It's "silly" to overlook the weakness that the defense was later in the season, forcing the offense (and especially the QB) to press, in attempts to compensate, which can lead to turnovers It's "silly" to assume that 1 really good half of competitive football is enough of a sample-size to base a MAJOR decision on It's "silly" to try to throw away massive experience and scheme fit, especially when the offense will be very experienced and you don't want to handcuff it with growing pains at the most important positionIt's "silly" to want a QB to play because his limited throwing tools will force the offense to be more run oriented (you want to be run oriented because the run game is such a strength, not because the passing game is a weakness)It's "silly" to assume that bowl games, where a new QB has a month to prep for a defense who has absolutely no film on him is a strong measuring stick to use for an entire season (see Trevor Knight at Oklahoma)etc. etc. etc.
We don't know who the best QB for 2015 is yet, because Golson and Zaire have barely started competing or the position...but a lot of the thought process being used in this thread is very "silly" and will likely lead to frustration when a starting QB is named with a far more complete thought process

That's me expressing my opinion


(also, Andover is definitely a place)
 
if he starts and wins; then that's good for all. But, what if things start to go as they did in '14.

As for the QB auditions, as been mentioned, some guys are great spring/practice guys; some are not. Sometimes it takes real combat to bring out the best/worst.
Some of us think that the USC debacle is just too hard to overlook. The sideline dis's of his HC; I just wonder about this staffs view of "leadership" and accountability? Is EG benefiting by the fact that there was significant staff turnover? Tableau Rasa?

The games will begin and we will all get the answers to all the questions. But to say it is "silly" to consider the '14' performance when evaluating the decision. Fool me once, twice? three times? At some point the going is going to get tough, lets see what happens then.

and
Wouldn't you like to be a fly on the wall when the meeting takes place to decide this matter? who is making the real decision and who will fans consider as the decision maker?
 
Originally posted by perseverare:
if he starts and wins; then that's good for all. But, what if things start to go as they did in '14.

As for the QB auditions, as been mentioned, some guys are great spring/practice guys; some are not. Sometimes it takes real combat to bring out the best/worst.
Some of us think that the USC debacle is just too hard to overlook. The sideline dis's of his HC; I just wonder about this staffs view of "leadership" and accountability? Is EG benefiting by the fact that there was significant staff turnover? Tableau Rasa?

The games will begin and we will all get the answers to all the questions. But to say it is "silly" to consider the '14' performance when evaluating the decision. Fool me once, twice? three times? At some point the going is going to get tough, lets see what happens then.

and
Wouldn't you like to be a fly on the wall when the meeting takes place to decide this matter? who is making the real decision and who will fans consider as the decision maker?
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The issue here is that you're thinking like a fan and not at all like a coach or a part of the team (very obviously)

Trying to say "I really don't like the way 1 game went...he shouldn't start" is a flat out "silly" argument, when you have a much more comprehensive body of work to look at. 1 game is just that, 1 game. Any coach who would weigh 1 game over a body of work would have been canned far before he made it to ND.

To say "what will happen when the going gets tough?" is also "silly", when they player you're using that logic to question is the player who's the battle tested, long-term proven winner with a 76% win percentage (highest of any ND QB in a while)...especially when 8 of those wins were games decided by a TD or less.

These are quite simply the "silly" arguments of someone looking at the situation from a very limited and unimportant viewpoint






I have no problem with someone wanting Zaire to be the starting QB

There is a lot to like about Zaire and I think he's going to be a phenomal player for us over the next 3 years. He brings a lot to the program and he should absolutely be allowed to compete for the starting job and there is a realistic chance that he could win it

That said, my only issue is with people using uninformed and "silly" arguments to bash one of the best college QBs ND has had recently (right up there with Quinn and Clausen)
 
Originally posted by Andover1:

Originally posted by perseverare:
if he starts and wins; then that's good for all. But, what if things start to go as they did in '14.

As for the QB auditions, as been mentioned, some guys are great spring/practice guys; some are not. Sometimes it takes real combat to bring out the best/worst.
Some of us think that the USC debacle is just too hard to overlook. The sideline dis's of his HC; I just wonder about this staffs view of "leadership" and accountability? Is EG benefiting by the fact that there was significant staff turnover? Tableau Rasa?

The games will begin and we will all get the answers to all the questions. But to say it is "silly" to consider the '14' performance when evaluating the decision. Fool me once, twice? three times? At some point the going is going to get tough, lets see what happens then.

and
Wouldn't you like to be a fly on the wall when the meeting takes place to decide this matter? who is making the real decision and who will fans consider as the decision maker?
Click to expand...
The issue here is that you're thinking like a fan and not at all like a coach or a part of the team (very obviously)

Trying to say "I really don't like the way 1 game went...he shouldn't start" is a flat out "silly" argument, when you have a much more comprehensive body of work to look at. 1 game is just that, 1 game. Any coach who would weigh 1 game over a body of work would have been canned far before he made it to ND.

To say "what will happen when the going gets tough?" is also "silly", when they player you're using that logic to question is the player who's the battle tested, long-term proven winner with a 76% win percentage (highest of any ND QB in a while)...especially when 8 of those wins were games decided by a TD or less.

These are quite simply the "silly" arguments of someone looking at the situation from a very limited and unimportant viewpoint






I have no problem with someone wanting Zaire to be the starting QB

There is a lot to like about Zaire and I think he's going to be a phenomal player for us over the next 3 years. He brings a lot to the program and he should absolutely be allowed to compete for the starting job and there is a realistic chance that he could win it

That said, my only issue is with people using uninformed and "silly" arguments to bash one of the best college QBs ND has had recently (right up there with Quinn and Clausen)
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Given the injury factor Joe Montana could have been qb vs USC and the Irish wouldnt have had a prayer .

FSU is a game where Golson engineered the most imporatnt scoring drive in 25 yrs @ ND and he did it with poise and skill .

Andover you do realize who you are debating with don't you ?

You are debating QB's with a guy who before the 2013 season stated that ---- T Rees would over throw receivers on deep balls all season because he has a weak arm and when he gets the snap from center he will throw it as far as he can right away to make up for his weak arm ..

Your also arguing w someone who said Golson and Zaire will play in the backfield together just like Paul Hornung did for the Packers .



Just an FYI Andover
 
Originally posted by Howard Hall 74:
Golson is one of the more gifted QB's ND has had in a long time. Kelly's handling of him last year was terrible. He destroyed his confidence - by year end completely. Just very bad coaching. Period. People forget easily that Golson was away a year. With only his 1st year, Freshman year as experience. If Kelly can stay far away and just let someone work with him whose first response isn't to start yelling in his face, maybe something good can come from this. Zaire is not a solution. Bad arm, mechanics, unable to see the field and an attitude and ego that can destroy a locker room. His first instinct is to run - always, run. Thats why the real battle will be between Kizer and Wimbush for #2 and #1 in 2016. I've always been impressed with Kizer, but Wimbush is very similar. Interesting to see which one emerges.
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Might be nitpicking, but remember, Golson was a redshirt freshman in 2012, which means he had a year of practice under his belt before starting. Kelly never really took the training wheels off that first season. Who am I to say whether that was by design or necessity. Then the guy gets himself kicked out of school for a year and in what should be his senior year turns the ball over at an alarming rate starting at the midpoint of the year. I just don't know why people think Golson is so great. Yes, he can certainly make some great plays, but half the time he seems to be totally baffled out there. You even saw that in the LSU game, where he tossed up a couple of very ill-advised passes.

Ultimately, I just can't understand out why ND's offense is so seemingly complicated that Peyton Manning, Aaron Rodgers, or Tom Brady would have a hard time figuring it out.
 
Here is my issue with the whole thing and yes I prefer Golson right now.

He is not going to be a NFL Qb. That is just my opinion. So I am not sure why BK keeps him in the pocket to pass. For one he is way too short to be in there. If he is really 6' 1'' or 6' 2'' then I am 6' 9''.

If you really think about Golson's best throws he makes they are 80-90% of the time when he is out of the pocket, usually scrambling. I just don't know why BK does not too more roll out passes. Look back at his year we went to the Championship game. That year he was on designed roll outs more. Now Alabama knew this and brought pressure to his right side to make him scramble to the left. But the point is he is more successful when he scrambles.

Wonder if that has to do with him being able to see the receivers better. Also how many passes did he have batted doen this year?

Maybe if we ran the ball more and more effective then we could play action to the roll out.
 
Wow this is just getting nuttier ands nuttier..First off anyone who says that MZ throws poorly just completely lost all credibility..That kid throws DARTS..l get it, some on here are just on the Golson bandwagon and always will be, and l like the kid too, l'm simply saying from all that l've seen of EG and by that l mean ON THE FIELD WHERE IT MATTERS, the kid isn't mentally tough and has a poor football IQ..MZ should be our starter, followed by DK..IMO...Don't forget how MZ completely outshone EG last spring football game..l'm telling you this kid has "IT"
 
If Kelly really wants to develop a string running game, then MZ will be the starter as he is much more capable to operating the running attack.

If Kelly wants to go back to the pass happy mode and not let the running game produce, then EG will start.

All depends on what operation Kelly wants to use.
 
I think its possible to have a strong running game independent of how is starting at QB. The nature of the running games would just be different.
 
this board was very passionate about a change in QB towards the end of the season and leading up to the bowl game; yet the idea of benching EG, based upon his actual game performances is decribed now as "silly". Things seem a bit schizo.

JMO: MZ and Kizer deserve real consideration; and the decision has to recognize/include the past perfomances by EG.
 
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