Defensive backs are the key to any great defense, especially if you want to pressure the QB.... We have been lacking serious talent and difference makers in the backfield. You need the DB's so you can leave them on an island more often than not thus we are able to use different pass rush schemes and blitzes. BVG is great at pressure schemes, the prob is we don't have anyone that can cover man to man. I love Redfield, he was a five star recruit. He isn't a five star safety. Russell was our best and he has played like 3/4 star. Safety play is terrible, if you can't cover you better lay some wood. You can't be avg. at both. This is the best BK has recruited DB's. Studstill is the best safety prospect we have recruited in a while. 3 stars is a joke, and he will prove it
BVG and our defense
- Thread starter JMAGICNOLE
- Start date
BVG's scheme leaves these kids vulnerable. If we don't have the athletes then why play this defense.
Or, better yet, if we don't have these athletes, go get them. I have been very UNDERwhlemed by BVG's recruiting.
He is a bad fit for ND. His best work as a coach was at Georgia but that was more than ten years ago.
One wonders what Kelly is thinking here?
Or, better yet, if we don't have these athletes, go get them. I have been very UNDERwhlemed by BVG's recruiting.
He is a bad fit for ND. His best work as a coach was at Georgia but that was more than ten years ago.
One wonders what Kelly is thinking here?
Why can't BVG and Kelly come up with a defense that fits the kind of players we have?
I think the midst of coaches now days is they decide what type of offense and defense they want to use … if they have the right personnel, great. If not, they "complain" and say they are lacking such and such at certain positions.
If you look at the great coaches over the years, the ones who actually win national titles, you'll see that, of course they go out and recruit studs, they change what they run over time to fit the kind of players they have on the team.
I think the midst of coaches now days is they decide what type of offense and defense they want to use … if they have the right personnel, great. If not, they "complain" and say they are lacking such and such at certain positions.
If you look at the great coaches over the years, the ones who actually win national titles, you'll see that, of course they go out and recruit studs, they change what they run over time to fit the kind of players they have on the team.
This is only true in high school ...very successful high school coaches. In high school the athletes you get you have no control over. So the good coaches have to be willing to adapt and adjust to the talent they are dealt.
D1 coaches have certain styles and can recruit to fit.
BVG scheme is too busy for the STUDENT athlete. Too complex.
But the worst part of all is tackling. Remove the schemes...the pre snap adjustments....all that non sense...
The simple form tackle. This is not taught or reaffirmed and our defensive woes begin right there.
5 star players if they are not taught and practiced properly in the most simple of fundamentals will only keep the score from being embarrassing.
These things are simple but it takes repetition. It takes having some live practices every so often even if that risks injury. Such is life unfortunately.
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That's goofy. So a team can be pure spread one season and pro-style the next?
More like coaches need to recruit players that fit in well with schemes and styles they coach.
seems that ND has yet to identify players that 'fit' the BVG system. And, since BVG is not known as a nationally prominant recruitor, then what?
Any great defense has to generate a pass rush with your front four. ND defense line has been solid against the run, but it generates almost no pass rush. No matter what kind of DB's you have if you can't get pressure on the QB it doesn't matter. Unless you have a corner combo like D. Denard and Tre Waynes, your defense has to have the ability to get the QB. Clemson's defensive backfield has less 4 star Db's than ND except for McKenzie. But their DB's aren't asked to play perfect man to man for the length of a play with no pass rush. That being said the biggest problem for ND is goal line efficiency and turnovers. No Defense can hold up when the offense scores quick and provides extra possessions for every opponent because turnovers. They are on the field the whole game. The only game I remember that ND may have controlled the time of possession is with Zaire against LSU and Texas.
I think ND has good enough athletes to play any scheme. They just need to get them to play better.
Has BVG defense changed much since UGA? I find it hard to believe that a UGA athlete is smarter then a ND one.. His defenses at UGA where too 10 every year
No he had better players at UGA. ND does not have elite defensive personnel. These Rivals and Scout ratings are BS. And are nothing but talking points for non football people..The difference between ND and Alabama in "Stars Ratings" is not that great.
The difference between ND and Alabamas defensive talent is as wide as Grand Canyon. Only Jaylon Smith and Sheldon Day would of started at Alabana this year. And they are gone.
But by all means lets continue discussing "the form tackle" because thats,surely the answer to all of ND'S defensive problems
The difference between ND and Alabamas defensive talent is as wide as Grand Canyon. Only Jaylon Smith and Sheldon Day would of started at Alabana this year. And they are gone.
But by all means lets continue discussing "the form tackle" because thats,surely the answer to all of ND'S defensive problems
That was a long time ago and a very different game played. I think the game has truly passed BVG with all the new spread offenses and uptempo offenses.
you see there is this stop that BVG made in the NFL since his Georgia days.
Moreover the college offense today is nothing like it was when he was at Georgia.
Given he is trying to employ a complex system like a whole bunch of formations....zone blitzes into all those different formations...into players who can't invest the time such as the pro athlete getting paid to dedicate that time....such is our defensive product. Seriously..I'm the MLB. We are set..in position to run a 3-4 but we aren't rushing the outside backers. We are running a zone blitz where I'm blitzing and day is backing into coverage. But if #12 goes in motion then I'm calling it out and Jaylon is picking up #12 now...day is straight up rushing and I am spying the QB. This is one tiny example here and you throw in another ten plus formations ...add all the quick pre snap adjustments..all the zone blitzing etc etc....and the fact these are students who can only dedicate a small amount of time into this and what you have is...............ND defense present day version
And to the one poster who likes to think we just get better players is the end all be all.....
It is a clear fact the Irish are lousy at fundamentals. The form tackle being one of them. That also happens to be the most important fundamental on the defensive side.
As I said ...You can have 5 star recruits every place but if they are lousy at the basics and have no idea what the **** they are doing they are only going to keep the losing score closer.
88nd is spot on in my opinion. Not only the complexity as described, but a level of complexity that changes weekly to align with the opposition tendencies. Thus the assessment that BVG's defense doesn't build on the prior week, but rather are complex enough to seem like starting anew. As for the OP, I personally think BVG's defensive schemes evolved a great deal at the pro level, and there is little similarity between his days at Georgia and today at ND.
Reading about the upcoming NFL draft, I saw this comment on Okwara:
" Because of his athleticism, many of the 3-4 teams will work him out as an outside linebacker. If he proves he can drop into coverage he may have a future in that type scheme. In a 4-3, he will need a year on the practice squad to develop his skills and get bigger and stronger." from http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/nfp-prospect-focus-sua-cravens-and-romeo-okwara
Maybe this is one reason Okwara was used to drop into pass coverage at times: opportunities for him to develop skills for the next level.
" Because of his athleticism, many of the 3-4 teams will work him out as an outside linebacker. If he proves he can drop into coverage he may have a future in that type scheme. In a 4-3, he will need a year on the practice squad to develop his skills and get bigger and stronger." from http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/nfp-prospect-focus-sua-cravens-and-romeo-okwara
Maybe this is one reason Okwara was used to drop into pass coverage at times: opportunities for him to develop skills for the next level.
I love Coach Kelly and BVG if Coach Kelly says. But if the BC guy was available, why didn't we grab him? #1 defense. Now Harbaugh has him. Damn.
As I stated only Jaylon Smith and Sheldon Day could of cracked the line up at Alabama. That means Alabama has better players at 9 of 11 position, ND's defense is complicated? Really? Alabamas defense was taught to Nick Saban when he was Bill Belichick's DC for the Cleveland Browns.
My guess is Alabama has a pretty complicated scheme, and they are teaching it to players with far less mental capacity then ND players, yet somehow they make it work. Why? Because they are bigger, stronger, faster and simply better players. Keep clinging to delusional star rankings and this fantasy about 1. Eyes Up 2. Head Across 3. Bend Your Knees 4. Shoot your hands 5. Run your feet and presto!!!!! Top 10 defense.
I've taught tackling every season for the last 20 years. the team with the better players win 90% of the time at every level. Want better defense, get better players. Want to win 12 games instead of 10. Get better players, want to make the Final Four get better players. ND has top 4 coaching, but it has Top 10-15 talent. Which BTW is a heck of lot better than the trash that was put on the field from 1997-2009
My guess is Alabama has a pretty complicated scheme, and they are teaching it to players with far less mental capacity then ND players, yet somehow they make it work. Why? Because they are bigger, stronger, faster and simply better players. Keep clinging to delusional star rankings and this fantasy about 1. Eyes Up 2. Head Across 3. Bend Your Knees 4. Shoot your hands 5. Run your feet and presto!!!!! Top 10 defense.
I've taught tackling every season for the last 20 years. the team with the better players win 90% of the time at every level. Want better defense, get better players. Want to win 12 games instead of 10. Get better players, want to make the Final Four get better players. ND has top 4 coaching, but it has Top 10-15 talent. Which BTW is a heck of lot better than the trash that was put on the field from 1997-2009
Agree. I would further break your comments down by saying the offense is a top 5. However, the defense is probably a top 25 based on the overall recruitment ability not results. Too me the book is still out on BVG.
Backing this in to only better material is ignorant. Sure talent is never bad. But if you think BVG is top 4 is pretty astounding.
I unlike you haven't chose to back my opinion into only a certain problem. They are problem(S).
Player to coaching..the defense is problematic throughout.
Moreover if you think his schemes are so simple then please explain why Schmidt was spoken of as being the guy because he gets the defense.
So in other words this school which has tremendous academic standards has only one middle linebacker who gets the schemes. Something seem amiss with that? As in having to use the least athletic linebacker because nobody else gets it. We heard that for two years. The irony here....because not just anyone can attend this university. Yet the schemes are so complex only one guy has the coaches confidence to make the proper adjustments. Just one. This is a business of putting your best foot forward I.e. playing the best athletes. If your athletes aren't getting system it certainly can't be a lack between the ears at this school.
You give BVG entirely way too much credit here. Sorry.
Sorry, but I have to disagree. Not to downplay player development, but lets look at all the past NC winners in the last decade. The one common denominator is they all have back to back top five rated classes prior to their NC's (per those rankings you call BS). Just like Lou said regarding taking low ranked players (he was specially targeting Willinghams recruiting), "you can find a diamond in the rough now and then, but you won't make a living on it". So I hate to say it but the ratings are not BS. Sure, not all of them five starts will become all americans. But I promise if you take 100 5 star players, and 100 3 star players I can guarantee that the ratio of all americans will be 5-1 respectively, at least.
But I do agree with your point the talent gap in defense is huge between ND and Alabama. I think some of that can fall on BVG's shoulders. We have whiffed on more DLineman in the last 5 years than I can remember.
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What i know is BVG was a successful DC with the Georgia Bulldogs, a DC for the Atlanta Falcons, a position coach under Rex Ryan, a DC at Auburn and a DC at ND. And you are not. No one ever said Joe Schmidt was the ONLY guy who understood the defense, So that is a lie, If Jaylon Smith and Sheldon Day did not understand the defense how did they become All Americans?
You have no idea if the scheme is too complex. Because you have no idea what the ND scheme is. Alabama and Ohio State play better defense, because Alabama and Ohio State have better defensive players. It is NEVER about X's & O's it is ALWAYS about the JIMMY & JOE's. That is the first thing anyone who has ever been around this game for 5 minutes will tell you,
dumb . we are the irish and the ones who support the irish. without the support no one care.
Hello head ...meet wall. You must have spent time playing in the leather helmet days. Seriously.
Simply incredible the point buzzes right past you.
Day and Smith have never called out the pre snap adjustments. Smith might have a little but day has not. No. That was one and only Joe Schmidt. Getting everyone aligned pre snap etc.
Do you remember last year one of the excuses for the defense falling apart was because Joe was out and he got everyone in the proper position pre snap. Say what you want about that excuse but that was fact...excuse from the coaches. Again...the least athletic mlb playing because nobody is quite getting BVG defense.
The whole Joe Schmidt thing will confound ND fans an media for years. I doubt this discussion fades away too quickly.
The post was directed to the op who is obviously [to me ] a FSU fan I deduced this from his name "Magicnole" and his use of "you" then" we" when referring to the Irish.If this was "dumb" so be it.
apologize for that I did not interpret that way . my mistake
And you clearly have never coached or played a snap of football leather helmet or not. Nyles Morgan struggled with his role. So ONE player struggling with his understanding means the entire defense is too complicated? If one student out of 11 fails an exam, does that mean the exam was too difficult or does it mean that one student needs to study and prepare harder?
From all accounts Jarrett Grace knew this defense and all the checks that went along with it, So if Schmidt can figure it out, and Grace can figure it out, why couldn't Morgan. It is DIVISION 1 FOOTBALL BABY!!!!!!!! You do not dumb things down to accommodate a few stragglers. You tell them to get up to speed or get the hell off the field. Unfortunately Morgan was the only option in 2014. Hopefully recruiting more depth gives BVG and Brian Kelly, more and better options.
"An eloquent and confident speaker, Redfield has carried 18-credit academic course loads at Notre Dame per semester, most notably learning Mandarin Chinese. When asked whether VanGorder's defense or Chinese was more difficult, he paused."
"That's a pretty good question," he responded. "I would say consistently being successful in that scheme is harder than learning Chinese.
Unlike your program Max has been coached from an early age by many current and former NFL players. In addition he played for, Bob Johnson, the CA legendary High School HC who put not 1 but two sons into the NFL as QB's. Do you think he might know a little about football? Both of those sons also coached Max and are on their father's staff....
Max had among the best HS coaching in the country. So, if he's struggling....
In addition, this defense would be a hell of a lot better if the guys were coached by alabama's football staff. That's a fact.
We continue to have zero identity on either side of the ball and underachieving special teams....
That's called piss poor coaching...
Florida...often agree with your observations, but not this time. Morgan wasn't the only player having trouble grasping the intricacies of BVG's defense. We heard time and time again about our DB's and safeties in particular being in the wrong position causing blown coverage's. There were also comments from coaches or analysts about linebackers and linemen making errors, ending up in the wrong position based on the dictates of the scheme, etc... Kelly himself indicated after the prior season that he would work with BVG to simplify the defense, etc... Way too many examples and comments from coaches and analysts to ignore the reality. I've posted a link before, but an article in the Buffalo newspaper on Dec 24th about the complexities of Rex Ryan's defense and the difficulty of mastering it, with many quotes from senior Polian, offers a good insight into BVG's scheme, which is similar. Yes, we need the talent and yes we need to greatly improve fundamentals, but strongly of the opinion that our defensive players are not able to master the complexities and thus don't play with speed and instinct. I played the game, but not of the opinion that one has to have played or coached to know the game and to have legitimate opinions to share here.
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