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Styles and Colzie

4-4-3 said:
Yes, and I understand you as well. But ND is already fishing in a limited pool. You can increase recruits and grad transfers in theory, but that doesn't mean ND will get better quality than it's getting now. Nor will it stop those of better quality from transferring the moment they're not playing.

If people start moving around in great quantity, to the extent ND does not permit itself to partake in that process, it will, as a direct result, be hurt. It won't be able to maintain itself as a premium program, much as would be the case with an MLB team that couldn't sign free agents. And to the extent that many franchises can't keep up with their big-market counterparts, that's already the case.

ND is not set up for the way CFB looks to be going.
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Well, you’re definitely taking a pessimistic viewpoint, I guess.

But on the bright side, this year we lost a bunch of backups to transfer, while gaining two starters - Coan and Madden. So at least the few we brought in were high quality players.
 
NDDadx3 said:
Very thoughtful but also overly pessimistic … the head coach is not developing QBs and where BK is meddling with QBs he’s destroying g them … his record with 5* … Crist, Kiel, Jurkovec and his record with 4* starting QBs like Golson, Zaire, Kizer, Wimbush all flamed out … his only trophy is Book and in the biggest games we we could not score. ND has better advantages to disadvantages ratio than all but a handful of schools. I believe ND makes the jump to the NIL world and the NIL world itself is just being defined. There will be some adjustments and growing pains over next few years but we were heading in that direction already … Kelly reputation with QBs and receivers is what we are now forced to dig out of … it’s not a Freeman problem.
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Was Jurkovich a 5 star???
 
Drinking The Green Koolaid said:
You can absolutely develop a QB. Maybe some QBs are born to play the position, but certainly not all of them are. You can work with a kid and develop a quick release. Dan Marino was probably born with a quick release, but that is also something that can be taught. So can the proper arm slot. Accuracy. Arm strength. All those skills can be developed through drills. Maybe those are things you consider "technical fixes," but I consider them to be part of developing a QB. And those are just the mechanical aspects of playing the position. Understanding receiver routes and reading a defense are mental skills that can be developed with good coaching.

You cite Jalen Hurts. I honestly wasn't all that impressed with him at Bama. I thought he was good, but he wasn't great. It didn't surprise me when Tua beat him out. Then Hurts transfers to OU (apparently with Saban's encouragement) and plays for a coach who has a reputation for developing QBs--Lincoln Riley--and he elevated his game.

And look at Trever Lawrence. There is no question he has natural ability to play the position, but look what has happened to him in the NFL. Did he suddenly get bad, or is he not getting good coaching?

As for Coan, I give Rees more credit for his development than Kelly.

I agree with you that being a great QB is more of a God given talent than a skill that can be taught, but I am not willing to completely disregard the value of good coaching.

I played QB in HS, but we played more of a single wing offense, long before the advent of today's pass happy game. It was three yards and a cloud of dust in those days. I didn't line up under center very often. I doubt I threw the ball more than 7 or 8 times in an entire game.
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You would think that our wide receivers would want to stay one year under Reese to see how he opens up the offense. But still, you have to run the routes, the quarterback has to have time to throw the ball, and the receiver needs to catch one is within his radius.
 
Drinking The Green Koolaid said:
Interesting post. To play devil's advocate, while Kelly was perhaps not a QB killer, neither was he a QB developer. From my perspective, none of the QBs you list seemed to improve to any great degree under Kelly's tutelage. The "ball of clay" he was given to mold seemed to keep its same shape while those guys were at ND. Everett Golson, for example, is a guy that I had very high hopes for. NFL caliber arm, nimble and very good in the pocket. In my view Golson was every bit as good as Johnny Manziel, though Johnny Touchdown certainly had EG beat in the swagger department. EG had some great games--his best game might have been the controversial loss to FSU--but I really thought he could have been something special. That just didn't happen under Kelly. Part of that, of course, may have been EG's own fault with his academic indiscretions, which undoubtedly stagnated his development. When he fell apart at the end of the 2014 season, I saw that as a crisis of confidence, not a lack of talent. What did Kelly do to restore EG's confidence? Nothing to not much, as far I could tell. I don't think that happens with Lincoln Riley or some other coach with a talent for developing QBs.

While Golson, Wimbush, Crist and Zaire didn't really flash after they transferred to other schools, I don't really find that surprising. They had limited development under Kelly, and then when they transferred to other schools they had to learn a new system and work with all new coaches. It would have been a lot to expect to see them suddenly turn into the reincarnation of Joe Montana in the space of one season. Unless those new coaches were miracle workers, I don't find it surprising that the skills they learned under Kelly didn't translate well at new schools.

I guess we will soon find out with Marcus Freeman whether Tommy Rees, who is now being given a pretty free hand to run the offense, is going to be able to do things with Freeman that he just wasn't able to do under Kelly.
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Tommy Rees learned all of his QB development from Kelly. This just isn't a new sheriff in town situation.
4-4-3 said:
But let me ask you -- what exactly is DEVELOPING a QB? I played 3 years of HS football and 2 in college, and I NEVER SAW ONE QB "GET DEVELOPED." Sure, there were technical fixes and foot fault corrections, but the guys EITHER HAD IT OR THEY DIDN'T. OR -- there was some degree of talent, but limited.
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Okay then did all of Mike Leach's quarterbacks have it while Kelly's never do? Was one just born lucky with his lesser talented players?
 
Drinking The Green Koolaid said:
You can absolutely develop a QB. Maybe some QBs are born to play the position, but certainly not all of them are. You can work with a kid and develop a quick release. Dan Marino was probably born with a quick release, but that is also something that can be taught. So can the proper arm slot. Accuracy. Arm strength. All those skills can be developed through drills. Maybe those are things you consider "technical fixes," but I consider them to be part of developing a QB. And those are just the mechanical aspects of playing the position. Understanding receiver routes and reading a defense are mental skills that can be developed with good coaching.

You cite Jalen Hurts. I honestly wasn't all that impressed with him at Bama. I thought he was good, but he wasn't great. It didn't surprise me when Tua beat him out. Then Hurts transfers to OU (apparently with Saban's encouragement) and plays for a coach who has a reputation for developing QBs--Lincoln Riley--and he elevated his game.

And look at Trever Lawrence. There is no question he has natural ability to play the position, but look what has happened to him in the NFL. Did he suddenly get bad, or is he not getting good coaching?

As for Coan, I give Rees more credit for his development than Kelly.

I agree with you that being a great QB is more of a God given talent than a skill that can be taught, but I am not willing to completely disregard the value of good coaching.

I played QB in HS, but we played more of a single wing offense, long before the advent of today's pass happy game. It was three yards and a cloud of dust in those days. I didn't line up under center very often. I doubt I threw the ball more than 7 or 8 times in an entire game.
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Okay, so you PLAYED the position. Single wing. I loved the single wing, and think it should still be used. We actually ran the ND box-shift in HS. Our coach had learned it from Rockne. Directly. Anyway, you're KNOWLEDGEABLE. Excellent.

But to your point if not your experience – if you’re talking COACHING TWEAKS AND ADJUSTMENTS, that’s one thing. But “developing” someone suggests increasing their awareness level of the position, outright. That somehow with the right holistic TUTELAGE or TRANSFORMATIVE GURU, a player can somehow become someone he otherwise NEVER would have become.

To me that’s HOLLYWOOD, and I simply don’t buy it. For one thing, there are other factors – which I’ll touch on later.

But first, I’d argue that the best that a coach can do is to show a player BETTER TECHNIQUE and then make sure he PRACTICES THAT TECHNIQUE. But then it’s up to the player to INCORPORATE IT into his actual game-time execution to the extent that he’s capable. And if the player can’t do that, there’s NO AMOUNT OF COACHING qua “development” that will make a difference.

So, if you’re going to even call any of that “development, it must also be acknowledged that it’s not going to work equally with everyone.

Second, even if there’s improvement, HOW MATERIAL DOES IT WIND UP BEING? Did Golson being Golson as coached by Kelly et al. or Book, likewise, cost ND an NC because of a lack of TECHNIQUE? Were their other gifts so nullified by what they couldn’t do at a specifically Manziel or Lawrence level? To me, they simply weren’t those two INNATELY SUPERIOR players. In fact, how exactly would one even begin to “develop” Ian Book to a Trevor Lawrence level?

As for Hurts and Lawrence themselves, I’d offer this:

  • Hurts’ stats at Bama and OU are not that different. In fact, they’re equally good. At OU, he produced more offense, period – and that included rushing. But where was the ABSOLUTE SEA-CHANGE? He was older and more experienced at OU and may have put up similar numbers had he the opportunity to play his final season at Bama. But it isn’t as though he was totally REMINTED at OU. He had the INNATE ability to “take” Bama to the finals in 16 and to win an NC in 17. Yet, the “new and improved” Jalen Hurts couldn’t do it at OU. So, in the end, at which school was he the “better” QB? It isn’t so cut and dried.
  • Lawrence simply hasn’t made a smooth transition to the NFL, suggesting that things that worked for him in college aren’t automatically replicative in the NFL. I don’t think he’s forgotten how to play QB, and I don’t think Meyer, now gone, forgot how to coach. What it looks like is Meyer wasn’t a good fit for the League and wasn’t capable of figuring out how to maximize Lawrence’s abilities while minimizing his weaknesses. But at this stage, I don’t see anyone having to come in and “develop” Lawrence. What’s needed, assuming he has the requisite ability to excel at the pro level, is merely some ADJUSTING.
Then there are those OTHER FACTORS I mentioned. Line play, receiver quality, opponent strength, game conditions, etc. Some work in your favor at times, some don’t. But they all reflect a QB’s overall performance – meaning that it isn’t just the result of whether or not he was adequately “developed.” Book’s taking off and running, for which he was so incessantly criticized, was actually THE BEST WAY TO BEAT CERTAIN TEAMS. An asset and NOT a liability.

Then there’s Coan, who with an adequate line in ND’s opening games, would have wound up with a completion percentage 5 points higher, while ND would have gone undefeated and would now be in the playoffs. It’s not like in baseball where there’s only the batter, the pitcher, and the ball in flight. A QB’s performance is based on multiple variables, MOST OF WHICH he has little or no control over.

If one is going to argue that if Kelly wasn’t a QB destroyer he also wasn’t a QB developer, I’d like to see evidence of something he or Rees or anyone on this or former staffs could have done where “developing” ND QB’s better – given the actual athletes involved -- would have even won additional games, let alone an NC.

I think the QB play has been pretty darn good and that people place too much emphasis on QB negatives when, in fact, there are numerous other factors that are easily as responsible for ND not winning it all.

You can only go so far with your ACTUAL TALENT. If there’s been a QB problem at ND, it’s due to the LACK of TOP-RATE TALENT. And as I wrote previously, the last moderately successful ND QB in the pros graduated in 1986. That's a very long DROUGHT.
 
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mbd11 said:
Well, you’re definitely taking a pessimistic viewpoint, I guess.

But on the bright side, this year we lost a bunch of backups to transfer, while gaining two starters - Coan and Madden. So at least the few we brought in were high quality players.
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Yes, this year, it worked out. It also worked out with Gilman and Skowronek. But the reason I'm pessimistic -- should it become a GREATER NUMBERS game -- is that I don't see ND agreeing to the NECESSARY RATE OF TRAFFIC.

Other teams will be able to recoup their losses at a greater rate. They'll be MORE ACTIVE buyers.

Like you said originally, look at the numbers. The bigger this gets, the more it hurts ND.
 
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tbonesays said:
Tommy Rees learned all of his QB development from Kelly. This just isn't a new sheriff in town situation.

Okay then did all of Mike Leach's quarterbacks have it while Kelly's never do? Was one just born lucky with his lesser talented players?
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Mike Leach is a different animal from Brian Kelly. He plays a much more wide open game and -- I SUSPECT -- he focuses on recruiting kids who can handle that. Basically, it's a NO-FEAR-OFFENSE.

Kelly is much more conservative and controlling. But that's how he WINS GAMES. And he wins more regularly than Leach.

Kelly's also not in the business of DEVELOPING QB's FOR ITS OWN SAKE. Who is? But it's not the reason ND hasn't won an NC. There are a host of contributing reasons.

But to suggest it's because Kelly doesn't "develop" QB's is as RED a HERRING as you'll find.
 
4-4-3 said:
Mike Leach is a different animal from Brian Kelly. He plays a much more wide open game and -- I SUSPECT -- he focuses on recruiting kids who can handle that. Basically, it's a NO-FEAR-OFFENSE.

Kelly is much more conservative and controlling. But that's how he WINS GAMES. And he wins more regularly than Leach.

Kelly's also not in the business of DEVELOPING QB's FOR ITS OWN SAKE. Who is? But it's not the reason ND hasn't won an NC. There are a host of contributing reasons.

But to suggest it's because Kelly doesn't "develop" QB's is as RED a HERRING as you'll find.
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Kelly's sometimes conservative qbs were not high quality either. If we switch lanes to game managers we can name other coaches who built better conservative quarterbacks. And they are not all named Saban.
 
tbonesays said:
Kelly's sometimes conservative qbs were not high quality either. If we switch lanes to game managers we can name other coaches who built better conservative quarterbacks. And they are not all named Saban.
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Kelly's QB's were evidently the best he could get. ND isn't set up to attract the best skill position players. The Heisman hasn't gone to an ND player since Brown in 87, and ND's last QB to do reasonably well in the NFL, Beuerlein, graduated the year prior.

Is there a recent ND QB who even remotely resembles the kind of talent that in recent years has signed on at Bama, LSU, Georgia, OSU and OU. Even Cincy and Virginia have gotten better QB's.

All of these recruiting arguments boil down to one thing: ND ADMISSIONS AND ACADEMIC POLICIES RULE OUT TOO MANY POTENTIAL CANDIDATES.

As long as ND continues to try MIRACULOUSLY to achieve the ULTIMATE with less, we'll simply see more of this. There are no other MAGIC BULLETS to fix it. Not more aggressive recruiting or more so-called "development."

You either get the MAJORITY OF THE STUDS or you don't. Because, the percentages are on THEIR SIDE to go all the way. It's no different in any sport.

Look at the Yankees' 1998 and 2009 lineups and wonder NOT FOR ONE SECOND why they won WS's both those years, HANDILY.

Coaching MATTERS but will only take you so far as TALENT PERMITS.
 
4-4-3 said:
Okay, so you PLAYED the position. Single wing. I loved the single wing, and think it should still be used. We actually ran the ND box-shift in HS. Our coach had learned it from Rockne. Directly. Anyway, you're KNOWLEDGEABLE. Excellent.

But to your point if not your experience – if you’re talking COACHING TWEAKS AND ADJUSTMENTS, that’s one thing. But “developing” someone suggests increasing their awareness level of the position, outright. That somehow with the right holistic TUTELAGE or TRANSFORMATIVE GURU, a player can somehow become someone he otherwise NEVER would have become.

To me that’s HOLLYWOOD, and I simply don’t buy it. For one thing, there are other factors – which I’ll touch on later.

But first, I’d argue that the best that a coach can do is to show a player BETTER TECHNIQUE and then make sure he PRACTICES THAT TECHNIQUE. But then it’s up to the player to INCORPORATE IT into his actual game-time execution to the extent that he’s capable. And if the player can’t do that, there’s NO AMOUNT OF COACHING qua “development” that will make a difference.

So, if you’re going to even call any of that “development, it must also be acknowledged that it’s not going to work equally with everyone.

Second, even if there’s improvement, HOW MATERIAL DOES IT WIND UP BEING? Did Golson being Golson as coached by Kelly et al. or Book, likewise, cost ND an NC because of a lack of TECHNIQUE? Were their other gifts so nullified by what they couldn’t do at a specifically Manziel or Lawrence level? To me, they simply weren’t those two INNATELY SUPERIOR players. In fact, how exactly would one even begin to “develop” Ian Book to a Trevor Lawrence level?

As for Hurts and Lawrence themselves, I’d offer this:

  • Hurts’ stats at Bama and OU are not that different. In fact, they’re equally good. At OU, he produced more offense, period – and that included rushing. But where was the ABSOLUTE SEA-CHANGE? He was older and more experienced at OU and may have put up similar numbers had he the opportunity to play his final season at Bama. But it isn’t as though he was totally REMINTED at OU. He had the INNATE ability to “take” Bama to the finals in 16 and to win an NC in 17. Yet, the “new and improved” Jalen Hurts couldn’t do it at OU. So, in the end, at which school was he the “better” QB? It isn’t so cut and dried.
  • Lawrence simply hasn’t made a smooth transition to the NFL, suggesting that things that worked for him in college aren’t automatically replicative in the NFL. I don’t think he’s forgotten how to play QB, and I don’t think Meyer, now gone, forgot how to coach. What it looks like is Meyer wasn’t a good fit for the League and wasn’t capable of figuring out how to maximize Lawrence’s abilities while minimizing his weaknesses. But at this stage, I don’t see anyone having to come in and “develop” Lawrence. What’s needed, assuming he has the requisite ability to excel at the pro level, is merely some ADJUSTING.
Then there are those OTHER FACTORS I mentioned. Line play, receiver quality, opponent strength, game conditions, etc. Some work in your favor at times, some don’t. But they all reflect a QB’s overall performance – meaning that it isn’t just the result of whether or not he was adequately “developed.” Book’s taking off and running, for which he was so incessantly criticized, was actually THE BEST WAY TO BEAT CERTAIN TEAMS. An asset and NOT a liability.

Then there’s Coan, who with an adequate line in ND’s opening games, would have wound up with a completion percentage 5 points higher, while ND would have gone undefeated and would now be in the playoffs. It’s not like in baseball where there’s only the batter, the pitcher, and the ball in flight. A QB’s performance is based on multiple variables, MOST OF WHICH he has little or no control over.

If one is going to argue that if Kelly wasn’t a QB destroyer he also wasn’t a QB developer, I’d like to see evidence of something he or Rees or anyone on this or former staffs could have done where “developing” ND QB’s better – given the actual athletes involved -- would have even won additional games, let alone an NC.

I think the QB play has been pretty darn good and that people place too much emphasis on QB negatives when, in fact, there are numerous other factors that are easily as responsible for ND not winning it all.

You can only go so far with your ACTUAL TALENT. If there’s been a QB problem at ND, it’s due to the LACK of TOP-RATE TALENT. And as I wrote previously, the last moderately successful ND QB in the pros graduated in 1986. That's a very long DROUGHT.
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I never really understood why mechanics are such an important thing when it's more important that the quarterback can get the ball from his hand to the receiver, avoid the sack, have net games if he's flushed out of the pocket and can run the damn ball if required. Now Ft worth in mechanics may get a better thrown ball, and a deeper Ball, but in the end, there's too many intangibles that make a great quarterback. And if the mechanics are a little off, who cares as long as we win
 
shabak said:
I never really understood why mechanics are such an important thing when it's more important that the quarterback can get the ball from his hand to the receiver, avoid the sack, have net games if he's flushed out of the pocket and can run the damn ball if required. Now Ft worth in mechanics may get a better thrown ball, and a deeper Ball, but in the end, there's too many intangibles that make a great quarterback. And if the mechanics are a little off, who cares as long as we win
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Mechanics are what help a QB do the things you cite as essential, but in the end you're right that it also takes a certain brand of NATIVE SKILL. And not everyone's skill set is identical.

What I object to is the implication -- or even outright accusation -- that QB's came to ND under Brian Kelly and were somehow taught bad habits or HOW TO REGRESS. That there was some as yet pristine or even Platonic version of them that Brian Kelly either strangled in the crib or, if they were already displaying it, banished to the UNDERWORLD.

I see this as just more excuse-making by those who keep obsessively looking for "reasons" as to why an Ian Book simply didn't come out one Saturday and play like Justin Fields. Instead of just realizing that ND no longer gets the Justin Fields' of this world to play QB. No, rather than accept that, Kelly, Book and any and all who support them GET BASHED.

It's like there's been SOME CRIME COMMITTED and a GUILTY PARTY must be found. When the real "culprit," ND admissions and academic standards -- and the INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT RECRUITING GAUNTLET THEY POSE AS RESPECTS PREMIER PLAYERS -- is standing there fully visible to all.

And yet the whiny finger-pointing -- particularly at Kelly for not "developing QB'S" -- persists. Problem is, you can't turn JOE WALSH into MOZART as joyous a transformation as that might be.
 
Mitchel tinsley transfers to Penn state… he was one of the better wrs in the portal

Can’t lose styles or colzie and Austin needs to return
 
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As Freeman is building a reputatuon for himself he should focus on defensive recruiting which is his strength and also try to land a highly rated QB. If he proves himself as a HC, then the offensive recruits will eventually buy in. Under Kelly, Lea and Elkos defenses bailed our sometimes ineffective offense out in many games. Freeman should build and reinforce the D and over time the O will follow. Thats my opinion anyway.
 
IrishMike409 said:
Styles is going to be the our #1 WR. He’d be crazy to leave. Is there another top 15 program that he could go to and immediately be the #1 guy?
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Am worried about this transfer portal crap...he could bail on us...and given how his brother is going to O$U, I fear he could make a move there...I hope not, they are loaded so maybe he wouldn't...but any rumours of him and Colzie looking to bail have to be treated with some level risk they might....
 
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TorontoHrvat said:
Am worried about this transfer portal crap...he could bail on us...and given how his brother is going to O$U, I fear he could make a move there...I hope not, they are loaded so maybe he wouldn't...but any rumours of him and Colzie looking to bail have to be treated with some level risk they might....
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I agree w that. Well said.
 
Wasn't trying to scare anyone...just curious because since the rumblings of them leaving a month ago, I haven't heard anything. Just wanted to see if there was an update.
 
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4-4-3 said:
Mechanics are what help a QB do the things you cite as essential, but in the end you're right that it also takes a certain brand of NATIVE SKILL. And not everyone's skill set is identical.

What I object to is the implication -- or even outright accusation -- that QB's came to ND under Brian Kelly and were somehow taught bad habits or HOW TO REGRESS. That there was some as yet pristine or even Platonic version of them that Brian Kelly either strangled in the crib or, if they were already displaying it, banished to the UNDERWORLD.
I see this as just more excuse-making by those who keep obsessively looking for "reasons" as to why an Ian Book simply didn't come out one Saturday and play like Justin Fields. Instead of just realizing that ND no longer gets the Justin Fields' of this world to play QB. No, rather than accept that, Kelly, Book and any and all who support them GET BASHED.

It's like there's been SOME CRIME COMMITTED and a GUILTY PARTY must be found. When the real "culprit," ND admissions and academic standards -- and the INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT RECRUITING GAUNTLET THEY POSE AS RESPECTS PREMIER PLAYERS -- is standing there fully visible to all.

And yet the whiny finger-pointing -- particularly at Kelly for not "developing QB'S" -- persists. Problem is, you can't turn JOE WALSH into MOZART as joyous a transformation as that might be.
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Absolutely QB's need to be developed. Please explain Stetson Bennett. i can name a slew of 3 star QB's, but let's start with Bennett.
 
NDinNJ said:
Absolutely QB's need to be developed. Please explain Stetson Bennett. i can name a slew of 3 star QB's, but let's start with Bennett.
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Stetson is what we hoped book would be…. Very very similar skill set and talent. Bennet isn’t afraid of the moment and making the big passes. He might not be talented enough to beat bama, but he’ll give them a chance
 
Get Nasty said:
Stetson is what we hoped book would be…. Very very similar skill set and talent. Bennet isn’t afraid of the moment and making the big passes. He might not be talented enough to beat bama, but he’ll give them a chance
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I got Georgia by 10
 
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NDinNJ said:
Absolutely QB's need to be developed. Please explain Stetson Bennett. i can name a slew of 3 star QB's, but let's start with Bennett.
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For starters, he's got a great name for a QB, although it would be even better if played for Texas.
 
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NDinNJ said:
Absolutely QB's need to be developed. Please explain Stetson Bennett. i can name a slew of 3 star QB's, but let's start with Bennett.
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I can't. He seems like Baby Jesus to me.

Said at three he'd be Georgia's QB some day. Kid walks on water.

Plus, HE CAN PASS.

Last ND QB of this ilk was maybe Joe Theismann.
 
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