Styles and Colzie

[NDDadx3]

Was that the canary’s first chirp of buyer’s remorse regarding Freeman’s hiring? If so, it’s understandable. If not, it’s still a good question.

So much to consider here. And while much of it’s speculative, it’s still good food for thought even if it’s far too early to offer any conclusions. But that there are many loose ends that at some point may tie together is striking.

• Kelly had years of head coaching experience and a 72% won-lost record. Freeman in comparison is a relative novice with no CEO/head coaching experience. Maybe not all of the players prefer the new arrangement despite the enthusiasm and positive feedback for Freeman, overall. Will Freeman, a D guy, be any better at getting and developing Joe Burrows/Trevor Lawrence type QB’s? And if not, why would five-star WR’s come to ND? Or some already at ND stay? Seriously, how good a QB is Buchner -- or Pyne -- compared to some of the other talent out there?
• Neither NIL nor the portal look to be ND’s friend. ND is unlikely – to put it mildly – to become an NIL recruiter and with the portal, it will be much easier for players to leave ND then to get in. And who knows if this didn’t factor into Kelly’s decision? If there’s one thing we’ve always known about Kelly – and he just reemphasized it – he’s CALCULATING.
• NIL and the portal will work best for those teams whose barriers to entry – whether it’s recruits or transfers are the LOWEST. ND, because of academics, is HARDLY AN INCLUSIVE RECRUITER or ACCEPTER OF UNDERGRAD TRANSFERS. In fact, ND recruits more along the lines of CULLING A HERD. The pool of recruits may be x, but ND will only choose from x – y.
• I can’t imagine Kelly wanting to be TRAPPED in that kind of environment at the SUNSET of his career when he’s probably always felt he could win an NC with the right recruiting PIPELINE.
• With all of this in mind, would it have made more sense for ND to hire someone else to replace Kelly? We’ll never know until Freeman is three years into the experiment. As it is, I think he may be headed for the same kind of perfect storm that greeted Terry Brennan when in year 3, the extra recruits that had been given to Leahy his last three years were subtracted from Brennan’s yearly quota, going forward.
• And if CFB’s new landscape should prove as POSSIBLY PROBLEMATIC TO ND AS MY SCENARIO SUGGESTS, is there ANY coach out there who would be better able to handle what’s facing Freeman than Freeman? Possibly, but the die’s been cast. I see a steep hill ahead for ND football.

Very thoughtful but also overly pessimistic … the head coach is not developing QBs and where BK is meddling with QBs he’s destroying g them … his record with 5* … Crist, Kiel, Jurkovec and his record with 4* starting QBs like Golson, Zaire, Kizer, Wimbush all flamed out … his only trophy is Book and in the biggest games we we could not score. ND has better advantages to disadvantages ratio than all but a handful of schools. I believe ND makes the jump to the NIL world and the NIL world itself is just being defined. There will be some adjustments and growing pains over next few years but we were heading in that direction already … Kelly reputation with QBs and receivers is what we are now forced to dig out of … it’s not a Freeman problem.

 

[Get Nasty]

We've had a wr problem for a long time now. We haven't retained Del. I doubt he comes back.

We just signed the number 7 class in the country after a coaching change and not having a full staff. Damn impressive

It hasn't been a month. We haven't lost a player to transfer

Agree… that’s why next few weeks/months will be telling from coaching ability in bowl to keeping and building team and coaches

 

[pfluke1]

This is a toxic post . These rumors are coming from people who apparently have “sources” but don’t work for any media . I guess we will just see everyone walk away from the team January 2nd

 

[Get Nasty]

Was that the canary’s first chirp of buyer’s remorse regarding Freeman’s hiring? If so, it’s understandable. If not, it’s still a good question.

So much to consider here. And while much of it’s speculative, it’s still good food for thought even if it’s far too early to offer any conclusions. But that there are many loose ends that at some point may tie together is striking.

• Kelly had years of head coaching experience and a 72% won-lost record. Freeman in comparison is a relative novice with no CEO/head coaching experience. Maybe not all of the players prefer the new arrangement despite the enthusiasm and positive feedback for Freeman, overall. Will Freeman, a D guy, be any better at getting and developing Joe Burrows/Trevor Lawrence type QB’s? And if not, why would five-star WR’s come to ND? Or some already at ND stay? Seriously, how good a QB is Buchner -- or Pyne -- compared to some of the other talent out there?
• Neither NIL nor the portal look to be ND’s friend. ND is unlikely – to put it mildly – to become an NIL recruiter and with the portal, it will be much easier for players to leave ND then to get in. And who knows if this didn’t factor into Kelly’s decision? If there’s one thing we’ve always known about Kelly – and he just reemphasized it – he’s CALCULATING.
• NIL and the portal will work best for those teams whose barriers to entry – whether it’s recruits or transfers are the LOWEST. ND, because of academics, is HARDLY AN INCLUSIVE RECRUITER or ACCEPTER OF UNDERGRAD TRANSFERS. In fact, ND recruits more along the lines of CULLING A HERD. The pool of recruits may be x, but ND will only choose from x – y.
• I can’t imagine Kelly wanting to be TRAPPED in that kind of environment at the SUNSET of his career when he’s probably always felt he could win an NC with the right recruiting PIPELINE.
• With all of this in mind, would it have made more sense for ND to hire someone else to replace Kelly? We’ll never know until Freeman is three years into the experiment. As it is, I think he may be headed for the same kind of perfect storm that greeted Terry Brennan when in year 3, the extra recruits that had been given to Leahy his last three years were subtracted from Brennan’s yearly quota, going forward.
• And if CFB’s new landscape should prove as POSSIBLY PROBLEMATIC TO ND AS MY SCENARIO SUGGESTS, is there ANY coach out there who would be better able to handle what’s facing Freeman than Freeman? Possibly, but the die’s been cast. I see a steep hill ahead for ND football.

Good post and agree with most of it….

except Kelly has shown his true colors the last 2 weeks. Snake

nil should be be players fan. Best exposure in the country if done properly

transfers not so much

 

[tkirish]

Was that the canary’s first chirp of buyer’s remorse regarding Freeman’s hiring? If so, it’s understandable. If not, it’s still a good question.

So much to consider here. And while much of it’s speculative, it’s still good food for thought even if it’s far too early to offer any conclusions. But that there are many loose ends that at some point may tie together is striking.

• Kelly had years of head coaching experience and a 72% won-lost record. Freeman in comparison is a relative novice with no CEO/head coaching experience. Maybe not all of the players prefer the new arrangement despite the enthusiasm and positive feedback for Freeman, overall. Will Freeman, a D guy, be any better at getting and developing Joe Burrows/Trevor Lawrence type QB’s? And if not, why would five-star WR’s come to ND? Or some already at ND stay? Seriously, how good a QB is Buchner -- or Pyne -- compared to some of the other talent out there?
• Neither NIL nor the portal look to be ND’s friend. ND is unlikely – to put it mildly – to become an NIL recruiter and with the portal, it will be much easier for players to leave ND then to get in. And who knows if this didn’t factor into Kelly’s decision? If there’s one thing we’ve always known about Kelly – and he just reemphasized it – he’s CALCULATING.
• NIL and the portal will work best for those teams whose barriers to entry – whether it’s recruits or transfers are the LOWEST. ND, because of academics, is HARDLY AN INCLUSIVE RECRUITER or ACCEPTER OF UNDERGRAD TRANSFERS. In fact, ND recruits more along the lines of CULLING A HERD. The pool of recruits may be x, but ND will only choose from x – y.
• I can’t imagine Kelly wanting to be TRAPPED in that kind of environment at the SUNSET of his career when he’s probably always felt he could win an NC with the right recruiting PIPELINE.
• With all of this in mind, would it have made more sense for ND to hire someone else to replace Kelly? We’ll never know until Freeman is three years into the experiment. As it is, I think he may be headed for the same kind of perfect storm that greeted Terry Brennan when in year 3, the extra recruits that had been given to Leahy his last three years were subtracted from Brennan’s yearly quota, going forward.
• And if CFB’s new landscape should prove as POSSIBLY PROBLEMATIC TO ND AS MY SCENARIO SUGGESTS, is there ANY coach out there who would be better able to handle what’s facing Freeman than Freeman? Possibly, but the die’s been cast. I see a steep hill ahead for ND football.

Good post. First I would say that Kelly wasn’t exactly king of QB development.
Also up until and including 2016 , minus one great year, he was average at best. He could have easily been let go after 2016. You could argue, and I did , that keeping him wouldn’t change anything. Most fans believed that. Well, we turned out to be wrong. There is a caveat to that. If we are to give credit to Kelly for tuning things around, then we also must recognize the “ dumbing down” of the schedule. When the chance arose to face equal or better opponents, his teams didn’t fair that well in most games. So yes his experience was evident but in many “ big” or “ must win “ games, his experience did nothing.
Throughout his years at ND his recruiting was outside the top ten. He could never land elite players consistently. He did a good job at ND and deserves credit for bringing them back into the conversation.

Now will Freeman be good , great or lousy ? No one knows . I think he could be the next Lincoln Riley. He could be the next Tom Herman or Manny Diaz. We shall see.

Will the NIL affect how ND can recruit? I guess. I don’t know how much or if it will be more negative than positive. My guess is , it will be tough to land truly elite players since those players would probably go to schools where more money could be made.

With all that said, I’m not going to try an over analyze. Freeman is the new coach and I’ll be pulling for him like I have every coach they have had.

 

[Get Nasty]

This is a toxic post . These rumors are coming from people who apparently have “sources” but don’t work for any media . I guess we will just see everyone walk away from the team January 2nd

There’s way too much smoke for there not to be some serious concern about players looking or leaving. It’s all over and has been for a bit. It quieted down when freeman was hired. The flare has worn off

 

[Kontiki09]

We've had a wr problem for a long time now. We haven't retained Del. I doubt he comes back.

We just signed the number 7 class in the country after a coaching change and not having a full staff. Damn impressive

It hasn't been a month. We haven't lost a player to transfer

Recruiting period isn’t over. Likely we end up 10-15.

 

[Golson5]

There’s way too much smoke for there not to be some serious concern about players looking or leaving. It’s all over and has been for a bit. It quieted down when freeman was hired. The flare has worn off

We'll be fine

 

[Golson5]

Recruiting period isn’t over. Likely we end up 10-15.

No. Not enough out there for other teams.

We'll finish between 7 and no lower than 12. More likely 7 thru 10.

Recruiting isnt over for us either

 

[Get Nasty]

We'll be fine

I fully expect it to be fine as well….But I’m not good with fine … next year could be special if the right pieces come back and Buchner develops

 

[Golson5]

I fully expect it to be fine as well….But I’m not good with fine … next year could be special if the right pieces come back and Buchner develops

I expect both to happen.

Even if everyone comes back, our schedule will be brutal. We'll be a better team next with most likely a worse record

Winning at ohio in game 1 for Buchner is very unlikely. They will be loaded

 

[mbd11]

Was that the canary’s first chirp of buyer’s remorse regarding Freeman’s hiring? If so, it’s understandable. If not, it’s still a good question.

So much to consider here. And while much of it’s speculative, it’s still good food for thought even if it’s far too early to offer any conclusions. But that there are many loose ends that at some point may tie together is striking.

• Kelly had years of head coaching experience and a 72% won-lost record. Freeman in comparison is a relative novice with no CEO/head coaching experience. Maybe not all of the players prefer the new arrangement despite the enthusiasm and positive feedback for Freeman, overall. Will Freeman, a D guy, be any better at getting and developing Joe Burrows/Trevor Lawrence type QB’s? And if not, why would five-star WR’s come to ND? Or some already at ND stay? Seriously, how good a QB is Buchner -- or Pyne -- compared to some of the other talent out there?
• Neither NIL nor the portal look to be ND’s friend. ND is unlikely – to put it mildly – to become an NIL recruiter and with the portal, it will be much easier for players to leave ND then to get in. And who knows if this didn’t factor into Kelly’s decision? If there’s one thing we’ve always known about Kelly – and he just reemphasized it – he’s CALCULATING.
• NIL and the portal will work best for those teams whose barriers to entry – whether it’s recruits or transfers are the LOWEST. ND, because of academics, is HARDLY AN INCLUSIVE RECRUITER or ACCEPTER OF UNDERGRAD TRANSFERS. In fact, ND recruits more along the lines of CULLING A HERD. The pool of recruits may be x, but ND will only choose from x – y.
• I can’t imagine Kelly wanting to be TRAPPED in that kind of environment at the SUNSET of his career when he’s probably always felt he could win an NC with the right recruiting PIPELINE.
• With all of this in mind, would it have made more sense for ND to hire someone else to replace Kelly? We’ll never know until Freeman is three years into the experiment. As it is, I think he may be headed for the same kind of perfect storm that greeted Terry Brennan when in year 3, the extra recruits that had been given to Leahy his last three years were subtracted from Brennan’s yearly quota, going forward.
• And if CFB’s new landscape should prove as POSSIBLY PROBLEMATIC TO ND AS MY SCENARIO SUGGESTS, is there ANY coach out there who would be better able to handle what’s facing Freeman than Freeman? Possibly, but the die’s been cast. I see a steep hill ahead for ND football.

I agree the new transfer rules will likely be bad for ND football. We've already lost 11 players and gained 3 in the past year, by my last count. So with our tough admissions standards for transfers, it'll probably be a net loss every year from that.

So maybe what we need to do, is take bigger classes every year. Like instead of taking 22-25 commits, take 30/year, in anticipation of losing several to transfer every year.

 

[4-4-3]

Very thoughtful but also overly pessimistic … the head coach is not developing QBs and where BK is meddling with QBs he’s destroying g them … his record with 5* … Crist, Kiel, Jurkovec and his record with 4* starting QBs like Golson, Zaire, Kizer, Wimbush all flamed out … his only trophy is Book and in the biggest games we we could not score. ND has better advantages to disadvantages ratio than all but a handful of schools. I believe ND makes the jump to the NIL world and the NIL world itself is just being defined. There will be some adjustments and growing pains over next few years but we were heading in that direction already … Kelly reputation with QBs and receivers is what we are now forced to dig out of … it’s not a Freeman problem.

I’m only going to address your QB comments as I’ll cover the other points in my responses to other posts dealing with this overall topic.

While I’m far from a Kelly APOLOGIST, I don’t subscribe to the theory that he was a QB killer. I think it’s an overworked theme and largely inaccurate. Here are my thoughts:

• Crist wasn’t doing badly, but he got hurt and Rees won the final four games down the stretch in 10. Then Crist got yanked in the first game against USF the following season. Kelly lost confidence in him, while Rees wound up finishing, career-stats-wise, among ND’s top 5 QB’s. And I say that as someone who much preferred Crist to Rees. But Kelly certainly didn’t wreck Rees. And then, Crist did really poorly at Kansas under Weis. If Kelly wrecked Crist, did Weis help him?

• Golson played mostly well in 12, lost the 13 season due to his own foolishness and was doing fine in 14 until he flamed out over the last 4 games? Was that a Kelly flameout or was that Golson? And then when Golson moved on to FSU, he did about the same as he had at ND. In other words, he was playing at his CEILING.

• Hendrix simply didn’t have it at the ND level despite being awesome in HS, while Kiel and Jurkovec couldn’t unseat the people in front of them. Kelly repeatedly said that to him Book was the better option than Jurokvec. How was that destroying Jurkovec? Hasn’t he been tearing it up at BC? He hasn’t looked destroyed to me.

• Zaire never fully got untracked, so we don’t know what he might have done, but he didn’t do much as a transfer either, so how good a player was he really at the college level? We’ll never know.

• Wimbush was a hell of an athlete – maybe too much so – and did seem to regress as a passer, though my sense is that he passed “over his head” his first year. And he, too, did nothing as a transfer. Barely played after getting beaten out just as he had at ND by Book.

• As for Kizer, his drop-off in his final year was in no way MAJOR. Stats-wise it was negligible while playing on a poor team. It was his second full season, and often players experience that kind of drop-off and then come back strong in year three. But for Kizer, there wasn’t any year three.

What’s more telling to me is that regardless of who the QB was, ND played for the NC in 12, almost made the playoffs in 15 and did make them in 18 and 20. How does a team do that over a 9-year period with WRECKED QB’s?

And what about Jack Coan? Did Kelly wreck Coan? Coan played almost statistically identically the way he’d played his last healthy year at Wisconsin. Coan would have been the PERFECT EXAMPLE of Kelly taking a good QB and destroying him. But it didn’t happen. And I’d argue that it’s largely because Coan was the best downfield pocket passer Kelly had. Which is exactly why Kelly played him and continued to have confidence in him even through ups and downs. Just as he’d done with Golson in 12.

Kelly never went back to Crist, Zaire or Wimbush, but he did go back to Coan SEVERAL TIMES. Coan was his MEAL TICKET. The others, not at all.

To be blunt, NONE OF THESE GUYS were in the same league as Manziel, Lawrence, Burrow or recent QB’s at OSU, OU, Bama and Georgia. Has ND had a Kyler Murray, Baker Mayfield or Justin Fields? ND has simply not recruited a QB of that caliber – WHO ACTUALLY SHOWED HE HAD THE GOODS AS A COLLEGIAN – since Clausen. Who wasn’t as good as any of those guys just mentioned either. And who was the last ND QB to make it in the pros? STEVE BEUERLIEN who graduated in 1986. And while he had some good years as an NFL starter, he spent most of his career as Troy Aikman’s backup at Dallas.

Only four ND QB’s in my lifetime have made it big in pro ball: Daryle Lamonica, Joe Theismann and Joe Montana in the NFL and Tom Clements in the CFL. And I've been watching ND football since Ralph Guglielmi and Tom Carey were co-starter QB's in 1954. Carey didn't make it in the pros either while Guglielmi was a career backup with the Redskins and Giants.

As for Freeman, who I’m not trying to knock here, let’s see how well HE does with Buchner, Pyne, Agnelli and Powlus? To be honest, I’m not sold on Buchner as an accurate downfield passer. That may simply be a matter of small sample size, but if he can’t throw the ball with accuracy downfield, ND isn’t going that far with an offense where Buchner is a RUN-FIRST QB. He’s good, but he’s not that good, and a good DL will shut down those little read-option, off-tackle jaunts of his pretty fast.

Also, given the way he runs, he’s a prime candidate for a serious knee or shoulder injury. He plays tougher than his frame.

Bottom line, I don’t think Kelly DESTROYED any of his QB’s. They simply went as far as their abilities could take them. Kelly also didn’t destroy any QB’s at Cincy that I'm aware of, and I seriously doubt he’ll destroy any at LSU. There’s no way they’d have gone after him down there if that’s what they thought he would do. Kelly will be as good as the players he gets, and that includes his QB’s.

 

[4-4-3]

Good post and agree with most of it….

except Kelly has shown his true colors the last 2 weeks. Snake

nil should be be players fan. Best exposure in the country if done properly

transfers not so much

Thanks, not defending Kelly per se, though, frankly, I would prefer to have him during this NIL/portal transition than Freeman as I think it's an UNLUCKY way for the younger man to come under fire as a head coach for the first time. Experience can be extremely useful during momentous transitions, and we could very well be on the precipice of one.

Second, I don't worry so much about "character" or what people think Kelly may or may not be as I do about WINNING GAMES. We all have our price in life, and few look a gift horse in the mouth. Woody Hayes and Bear Bryant could be outright S.O.B's -- they were truly HARD MEN -- but no Buckeye or Bama fans have ever asked for any of their victories to be vacated.

(What a term THAT is).

Kelly KNEW he would never win an NC at ND. Why? Because he tried and failed on about four occasions. He gambled that he could beat a STACKED DECK and lost. For his next act, he will now see if he can do it where he's been promised a RECRUITING HARVEST MOON. My guess is -- he has a shot.

As for Freeman, he'll have a very difficult time matching Kelly's record since 2017. Maybe he can. But, so far, there's NO WAY TO KNOW EITHER WAY as, TO BE BRUTALLY HONEST, he's little more than ND's latest crapshoot. And as I see it, a totally 50/50 proposition in the absence of a head coaching TRACK RECORD.

The bowl game will be telling, especially without Kyren Williams. He's been a difference maker.

 

[4-4-3]

I agree the new transfer rules will likely be bad for ND football. We've already lost 11 players and gained 3 in the past year, by my last count. So with our tough admissions standards for transfers, it'll probably be a net loss every year from that.

So maybe what we need to do, is take bigger classes every year. Like instead of taking 22-25 commits, take 30/year, in anticipation of losing several to transfer every year.

I take your point, but I'm not sure the reasoning holds up.

Since only a starting 22 plus ST players get to play -- unless you're doing a lot of rotating -- it doesn't matter how many players you recruit. The ones who aren't playing can LEAVE TOWN at any time and go play somewhere else. You could recruit 30 or 100. There would be no difference.

Then there's the question of ND ATTRACTING 30 PLAYER classes in the first place. It's not happening now, and there are roster limits. Is this even an option under current guidelines?

The real danger I see here is not only ND losing players but losing them to teams that ND now regularly beats, such as Pitt, Syracuse, Purdue and others who will now get to stock up on ex-ND players as well as ones from A&M, Bama or FSU. 0r from anywhere really.

ND's starters will still be respectable and in some cases exceptional, but the DEPTH WILL SUFFER DRAMATICALLY if it's only players leaving. And with a lack of depth, the odds will tilt back in favor of 6-6 seasons or worse.

This is potentially a very serious problem unless something changes with the sport or with ND's approach to it.

 

[echowaker]

I’m only going to address your QB comments as I’ll cover the other points in my responses to other posts dealing with this overall topic.

While I’m far from a Kelly APOLOGIST, I don’t subscribe to the theory that he was a QB killer. I think it’s an overworked theme and largely inaccurate. Here are my thoughts:

• Crist wasn’t doing badly, but he got hurt and Rees won the final four games down the stretch in 10. Then Crist got yanked in the first game against USF the following season. Kelly lost confidence in him, while Rees wound up finishing, career-stats-wise, among ND’s top 5 QB’s. And I say that as someone who much preferred Crist to Rees. But Kelly certainly didn’t wreck Rees. And then, Crist did really poorly at Kansas under Weis. If Kelly wrecked Crist, did Weis help him?

• Golson played mostly well in 12, lost the 13 season due to his own foolishness and was doing fine in 14 until he flamed out over the last 4 games? Was that a Kelly flameout or was that Golson? And then when Golson moved on to FSU, he did about the same as he had at ND. In other words, he was playing at his CEILING.

• Hendrix simply didn’t have it at the ND level despite being awesome in HS, while Kiel and Jurkovec couldn’t unseat the people in front of them. Kelly repeatedly said that to him Book was the better option than Jurokvec. How was that destroying Jurkovec? Hasn’t he been tearing it up at BC? He hasn’t looked destroyed to me.

• Zaire never fully got untracked, so we don’t know what he might have done, but he didn’t do much as a transfer either, so how good a player was he really at the college level? We’ll never know.

• Wimbush was a hell of an athlete – maybe too much so – and did seem to regress as a passer, though my sense is that he passed “over his head” his first year. And he, too, did nothing as a transfer. Barely played after getting beaten out just as he had at ND by Book.

• As for Kizer, his drop-off in his final year was in no way MAJOR. Stats-wise it was negligible while playing on a poor team. It was his second full season, and often players experience that kind of drop-off and then come back strong in year three. But for Kizer, there wasn’t any year three.

What’s more telling to me is that regardless of who the QB was, ND played for the NC in 12, almost made the playoffs in 15 and did make them in 18 and 20. How does a team do that over a 9-year period with WRECKED QB’s?

And what about Jack Coan? Did Kelly wreck Coan? Coan played almost statistically identically the way he’d played his last healthy year at Wisconsin. Coan would have been the PERFECT EXAMPLE of Kelly taking a good QB and destroying him. But it didn’t happen. And I’d argue that it’s largely because Coan was the best downfield pocket passer Kelly had. Which is exactly why Kelly played him and continued to have confidence in him even through ups and downs. Just as he’d done with Golson in 12.

Kelly never went back to Crist, Zaire or Wimbush, but he did go back to Coan SEVERAL TIMES. Coan was his MEAL TICKET. The others, not at all.

To be blunt, NONE OF THESE GUYS were in the same league as Manziel, Lawrence, Burrow or recent QB’s at OSU, OU, Bama and Georgia. Has ND had a Kyler Murray, Baker Mayfield or Justin Fields? ND has simply not recruited a QB of that caliber – WHO ACTUALLY SHOWED HE HAD THE GOODS AS A COLLEGIAN – since Clausen. Who wasn’t as good as any of those guys just mentioned either. And who was the last ND QB to make it in the pros? STEVE BEUERLIEN who graduated in 1986. And while he had some good years as an NFL starter, he spent most of his career as Troy Aikman’s backup at Dallas.

Only four ND QB’s in my lifetime have made it big in pro ball: Daryle Lamonica, Joe Theismann and Joe Montana in the NFL and Tom Clements in the CFL. And I've been watching ND football since Ralph Guglielmi and Tom Carey were co-starter QB's in 1954. Carey didn't make it in the pros either while Guglielmi was a career backup with the Redskins and Giants.

As for Freeman, who I’m not trying to knock here, let’s see how well HE does with Buchner, Pyne, Agnelli and Powlus? To be honest, I’m not sold on Buchner as an accurate downfield passer. That may simply be a matter of small sample size, but if he can’t throw the ball with accuracy downfield, ND isn’t going that far with an offense where Buchner is a RUN-FIRST QB. He’s good, but he’s not that good, and a good DL will shut down those little read-option, off-tackle jaunts of his pretty fast.

Also, given the way he runs, he’s a prime candidate for a serious knee or shoulder injury. He plays tougher than his frame.

Bottom line, I don’t think Kelly DESTROYED any of his QB’s. They simply went as far as their abilities could take them. Kelly also didn’t destroy any QB’s at Cincy that I'm aware of, and I seriously doubt he’ll destroy any at LSU. There’s no way they’d have gone after him down there if that’s what they thought he would do. Kelly will be as good as the players he gets, and that includes his QB’s.

Rick Mirer says what about me ?

 

[Get Nasty]

I expect both to happen.

Even if everyone comes back, our schedule will be brutal. We'll be a better team next with most likely a worse record

Winning at ohio in game 1 for Buchner is very unlikely. They will be loaded

Loaded yes but inexperienced in some areas…. Stroud though will be tough to beat

 

[mbd11]

I take your point, but I'm not sure the reasoning holds up.

Since only a starting 22 plus ST players get to play -- unless you're doing a lot of rotating -- it doesn't matter how many players you recruit. The ones who aren't playing can LEAVE TOWN at any time and go play somewhere else. You could recruit 30 or 100. There would be no difference.

Then there's the question of ND ATTRACTING 30 PLAYER classes in the first place. It's not happening now, and there are roster limits. Is this even an option under current guidelines?

The real danger I see here is not only ND losing players but losing them to teams that ND now regularly beats, such as Pitt, Syracuse, Purdue and others who will now get to stock up on ex-ND players as well as ones from A&M, Bama or FSU. 0r from anywhere really.

ND's starters will still be respectable and in some cases exceptional, but the DEPTH WILL SUFFER DRAMATICALLY if it's only players leaving. And with a lack of depth, the odds will tilt back in favor of 6-6 seasons or worse.

This is potentially a very serious problem unless something changes with the sport or with ND's approach to it.

It's just basic numbers. If you lose 10 or 11 undergrad transfers each year and replace them with 3 grad transfers, then you're going to have to increase your number of recruits in each freshman class, in order to keep your scholarship numbers at/near the maximum of 85.

So you'd probably end up with a roster comprised of relatively more freshmen and fewer upperclassmen than in the past, when transferring wasn't so easy.

So we should probably also try to recruit several grad transfers each year, to balance that out with some more experienced players.

 

[Harpo Marxist]

I’m only going to address your QB comments as I’ll cover the other points in my responses to other posts dealing with this overall topic.

While I’m far from a Kelly APOLOGIST, I don’t subscribe to the theory that he was a QB killer. I think it’s an overworked theme and largely inaccurate. Here are my thoughts:

• Crist wasn’t doing badly, but he got hurt and Rees won the final four games down the stretch in 10. Then Crist got yanked in the first game against USF the following season. Kelly lost confidence in him, while Rees wound up finishing, career-stats-wise, among ND’s top 5 QB’s. And I say that as someone who much preferred Crist to Rees. But Kelly certainly didn’t wreck Rees. And then, Crist did really poorly at Kansas under Weis. If Kelly wrecked Crist, did Weis help him?

• Golson played mostly well in 12, lost the 13 season due to his own foolishness and was doing fine in 14 until he flamed out over the last 4 games? Was that a Kelly flameout or was that Golson? And then when Golson moved on to FSU, he did about the same as he had at ND. In other words, he was playing at his CEILING.

• Hendrix simply didn’t have it at the ND level despite being awesome in HS, while Kiel and Jurkovec couldn’t unseat the people in front of them. Kelly repeatedly said that to him Book was the better option than Jurokvec. How was that destroying Jurkovec? Hasn’t he been tearing it up at BC? He hasn’t looked destroyed to me.

• Zaire never fully got untracked, so we don’t know what he might have done, but he didn’t do much as a transfer either, so how good a player was he really at the college level? We’ll never know.

• Wimbush was a hell of an athlete – maybe too much so – and did seem to regress as a passer, though my sense is that he passed “over his head” his first year. And he, too, did nothing as a transfer. Barely played after getting beaten out just as he had at ND by Book.

• As for Kizer, his drop-off in his final year was in no way MAJOR. Stats-wise it was negligible while playing on a poor team. It was his second full season, and often players experience that kind of drop-off and then come back strong in year three. But for Kizer, there wasn’t any year three.

What’s more telling to me is that regardless of who the QB was, ND played for the NC in 12, almost made the playoffs in 15 and did make them in 18 and 20. How does a team do that over a 9-year period with WRECKED QB’s?

And what about Jack Coan? Did Kelly wreck Coan? Coan played almost statistically identically the way he’d played his last healthy year at Wisconsin. Coan would have been the PERFECT EXAMPLE of Kelly taking a good QB and destroying him. But it didn’t happen. And I’d argue that it’s largely because Coan was the best downfield pocket passer Kelly had. Which is exactly why Kelly played him and continued to have confidence in him even through ups and downs. Just as he’d done with Golson in 12.

Kelly never went back to Crist, Zaire or Wimbush, but he did go back to Coan SEVERAL TIMES. Coan was his MEAL TICKET. The others, not at all.

To be blunt, NONE OF THESE GUYS were in the same league as Manziel, Lawrence, Burrow or recent QB’s at OSU, OU, Bama and Georgia. Has ND had a Kyler Murray, Baker Mayfield or Justin Fields? ND has simply not recruited a QB of that caliber – WHO ACTUALLY SHOWED HE HAD THE GOODS AS A COLLEGIAN – since Clausen. Who wasn’t as good as any of those guys just mentioned either. And who was the last ND QB to make it in the pros? STEVE BEUERLIEN who graduated in 1986. And while he had some good years as an NFL starter, he spent most of his career as Troy Aikman’s backup at Dallas.

Only four ND QB’s in my lifetime have made it big in pro ball: Daryle Lamonica, Joe Theismann and Joe Montana in the NFL and Tom Clements in the CFL. And I've been watching ND football since Ralph Guglielmi and Tom Carey were co-starter QB's in 1954. Carey didn't make it in the pros either while Guglielmi was a career backup with the Redskins and Giants.

As for Freeman, who I’m not trying to knock here, let’s see how well HE does with Buchner, Pyne, Agnelli and Powlus? To be honest, I’m not sold on Buchner as an accurate downfield passer. That may simply be a matter of small sample size, but if he can’t throw the ball with accuracy downfield, ND isn’t going that far with an offense where Buchner is a RUN-FIRST QB. He’s good, but he’s not that good, and a good DL will shut down those little read-option, off-tackle jaunts of his pretty fast.

Also, given the way he runs, he’s a prime candidate for a serious knee or shoulder injury. He plays tougher than his frame.

Bottom line, I don’t think Kelly DESTROYED any of his QB’s. They simply went as far as their abilities could take them. Kelly also didn’t destroy any QB’s at Cincy that I'm aware of, and I seriously doubt he’ll destroy any at LSU. There’s no way they’d have gone after him down there if that’s what they thought he would do. Kelly will be as good as the players he gets, and that includes his QB’s.

Claussen was in the pros for 5 years.....and one could argue that he had a better pro career than Manziel.

 

[Golson5]

Loaded yes but inexperienced in some areas…. Stroud though will be tough to beat

Stroud Henderson Smith-Njigba. Will be s nightmare to slow them down

At ohio state and we don't get lucky like Michigan playing them in the cold n snow

 

[Johnnie82]

They were first to report Walkers decommit, and CJ Williams.

Everybody and their great aunt sadie knew about those 2 decomits.

 

[Drinking The Green Koolaid]

I’m only going to address your QB comments as I’ll cover the other points in my responses to other posts dealing with this overall topic.

While I’m far from a Kelly APOLOGIST, I don’t subscribe to the theory that he was a QB killer. I think it’s an overworked theme and largely inaccurate. Here are my thoughts:

• Crist wasn’t doing badly, but he got hurt and Rees won the final four games down the stretch in 10. Then Crist got yanked in the first game against USF the following season. Kelly lost confidence in him, while Rees wound up finishing, career-stats-wise, among ND’s top 5 QB’s. And I say that as someone who much preferred Crist to Rees. But Kelly certainly didn’t wreck Rees. And then, Crist did really poorly at Kansas under Weis. If Kelly wrecked Crist, did Weis help him?

• Golson played mostly well in 12, lost the 13 season due to his own foolishness and was doing fine in 14 until he flamed out over the last 4 games? Was that a Kelly flameout or was that Golson? And then when Golson moved on to FSU, he did about the same as he had at ND. In other words, he was playing at his CEILING.

• Hendrix simply didn’t have it at the ND level despite being awesome in HS, while Kiel and Jurkovec couldn’t unseat the people in front of them. Kelly repeatedly said that to him Book was the better option than Jurokvec. How was that destroying Jurkovec? Hasn’t he been tearing it up at BC? He hasn’t looked destroyed to me.

• Zaire never fully got untracked, so we don’t know what he might have done, but he didn’t do much as a transfer either, so how good a player was he really at the college level? We’ll never know.

• Wimbush was a hell of an athlete – maybe too much so – and did seem to regress as a passer, though my sense is that he passed “over his head” his first year. And he, too, did nothing as a transfer. Barely played after getting beaten out just as he had at ND by Book.

• As for Kizer, his drop-off in his final year was in no way MAJOR. Stats-wise it was negligible while playing on a poor team. It was his second full season, and often players experience that kind of drop-off and then come back strong in year three. But for Kizer, there wasn’t any year three.

What’s more telling to me is that regardless of who the QB was, ND played for the NC in 12, almost made the playoffs in 15 and did make them in 18 and 20. How does a team do that over a 9-year period with WRECKED QB’s?

And what about Jack Coan? Did Kelly wreck Coan? Coan played almost statistically identically the way he’d played his last healthy year at Wisconsin. Coan would have been the PERFECT EXAMPLE of Kelly taking a good QB and destroying him. But it didn’t happen. And I’d argue that it’s largely because Coan was the best downfield pocket passer Kelly had. Which is exactly why Kelly played him and continued to have confidence in him even through ups and downs. Just as he’d done with Golson in 12.

Kelly never went back to Crist, Zaire or Wimbush, but he did go back to Coan SEVERAL TIMES. Coan was his MEAL TICKET. The others, not at all.

To be blunt, NONE OF THESE GUYS were in the same league as Manziel, Lawrence, Burrow or recent QB’s at OSU, OU, Bama and Georgia. Has ND had a Kyler Murray, Baker Mayfield or Justin Fields? ND has simply not recruited a QB of that caliber – WHO ACTUALLY SHOWED HE HAD THE GOODS AS A COLLEGIAN – since Clausen. Who wasn’t as good as any of those guys just mentioned either. And who was the last ND QB to make it in the pros? STEVE BEUERLIEN who graduated in 1986. And while he had some good years as an NFL starter, he spent most of his career as Troy Aikman’s backup at Dallas.

Only four ND QB’s in my lifetime have made it big in pro ball: Daryle Lamonica, Joe Theismann and Joe Montana in the NFL and Tom Clements in the CFL. And I've been watching ND football since Ralph Guglielmi and Tom Carey were co-starter QB's in 1954. Carey didn't make it in the pros either while Guglielmi was a career backup with the Redskins and Giants.

As for Freeman, who I’m not trying to knock here, let’s see how well HE does with Buchner, Pyne, Agnelli and Powlus? To be honest, I’m not sold on Buchner as an accurate downfield passer. That may simply be a matter of small sample size, but if he can’t throw the ball with accuracy downfield, ND isn’t going that far with an offense where Buchner is a RUN-FIRST QB. He’s good, but he’s not that good, and a good DL will shut down those little read-option, off-tackle jaunts of his pretty fast.

Also, given the way he runs, he’s a prime candidate for a serious knee or shoulder injury. He plays tougher than his frame.

Bottom line, I don’t think Kelly DESTROYED any of his QB’s. They simply went as far as their abilities could take them. Kelly also didn’t destroy any QB’s at Cincy that I'm aware of, and I seriously doubt he’ll destroy any at LSU. There’s no way they’d have gone after him down there if that’s what they thought he would do. Kelly will be as good as the players he gets, and that includes his QB’s.

Interesting post. To play devil's advocate, while Kelly was perhaps not a QB killer, neither was he a QB developer. From my perspective, none of the QBs you list seemed to improve to any great degree under Kelly's tutelage. The "ball of clay" he was given to mold seemed to keep its same shape while those guys were at ND. Everett Golson, for example, is a guy that I had very high hopes for. NFL caliber arm, nimble and very good in the pocket. In my view Golson was every bit as good as Johnny Manziel, though Johnny Touchdown certainly had EG beat in the swagger department. EG had some great games--his best game might have been the controversial loss to FSU--but I really thought he could have been something special. That just didn't happen under Kelly. Part of that, of course, may have been EG's own fault with his academic indiscretions, which undoubtedly stagnated his development. When he fell apart at the end of the 2014 season, I saw that as a crisis of confidence, not a lack of talent. What did Kelly do to restore EG's confidence? Nothing to not much, as far I could tell. I don't think that happens with Lincoln Riley or some other coach with a talent for developing QBs.

While Golson, Wimbush, Crist and Zaire didn't really flash after they transferred to other schools, I don't really find that surprising. They had limited development under Kelly, and then when they transferred to other schools they had to learn a new system and work with all new coaches. It would have been a lot to expect to see them suddenly turn into the reincarnation of Joe Montana in the space of one season. Unless those new coaches were miracle workers, I don't find it surprising that the skills they learned under Kelly didn't translate well at new schools.

I guess we will soon find out with Marcus Freeman whether Tommy Rees, who is now being given a pretty free hand to run the offense, is going to be able to do things with Freeman that he just wasn't able to do under Kelly.

 

[VTND]

Was that the canary’s first chirp of buyer’s remorse regarding Freeman’s hiring? If so, it’s understandable. If not, it’s still a good question.

So much to consider here. And while much of it’s speculative, it’s still good food for thought even if it’s far too early to offer any conclusions. But that there are many loose ends that at some point may tie together is striking.

• Kelly had years of head coaching experience and a 72% won-lost record. Freeman in comparison is a relative novice with no CEO/head coaching experience. Maybe not all of the players prefer the new arrangement despite the enthusiasm and positive feedback for Freeman, overall. Will Freeman, a D guy, be any better at getting and developing Joe Burrows/Trevor Lawrence type QB’s? And if not, why would five-star WR’s come to ND? Or some already at ND stay? Seriously, how good a QB is Buchner -- or Pyne -- compared to some of the other talent out there?
• Neither NIL nor the portal look to be ND’s friend. ND is unlikely – to put it mildly – to become an NIL recruiter and with the portal, it will be much easier for players to leave ND then to get in. And who knows if this didn’t factor into Kelly’s decision? If there’s one thing we’ve always known about Kelly – and he just reemphasized it – he’s CALCULATING.
• NIL and the portal will work best for those teams whose barriers to entry – whether it’s recruits or transfers are the LOWEST. ND, because of academics, is HARDLY AN INCLUSIVE RECRUITER or ACCEPTER OF UNDERGRAD TRANSFERS. In fact, ND recruits more along the lines of CULLING A HERD. The pool of recruits may be x, but ND will only choose from x – y.
• I can’t imagine Kelly wanting to be TRAPPED in that kind of environment at the SUNSET of his career when he’s probably always felt he could win an NC with the right recruiting PIPELINE.
• With all of this in mind, would it have made more sense for ND to hire someone else to replace Kelly? We’ll never know until Freeman is three years into the experiment. As it is, I think he may be headed for the same kind of perfect storm that greeted Terry Brennan when in year 3, the extra recruits that had been given to Leahy his last three years were subtracted from Brennan’s yearly quota, going forward.
• And if CFB’s new landscape should prove as POSSIBLY PROBLEMATIC TO ND AS MY SCENARIO SUGGESTS, is there ANY coach out there who would be better able to handle what’s facing Freeman than Freeman? Possibly, but the die’s been cast. I see a steep hill ahead for ND football.

We get it, you wanted Luke Fickell. Freeman is largely responsible for the success at Cincinnati. If he hadn’t been the DC their, they wouldn’t even be close to sniffing the playoffs. Freeman is the right guy. Everybody needs to calm down. If both choose to leave then see ya! This would have been the case if That rat Kelly was the coach or not.

 

[4-4-3]

We get it, you wanted Luke Fickell. Freeman is largely responsible for the success at Cincinnati. If he hadn’t been the DC their, they wouldn’t even be close to sniffing the playoffs. Freeman is the right guy. Everybody needs to calm down. If both choose to leave then see ya! This would have been the case if That rat Kelly was the coach or not.

Freeman's record as a head coach -- 0-0. Fickell's record as a head coach -- 54-21 (.720). Kelly's record as a head coach -- 166 -62 (.728). I think it's a prudent bet that Fickell and Kelly will continue to do well. But there is absolutely NO WAY to know at this stage if Freeman 'is the right guy" or not. Zero track record.

You're confusing HOPE with CERTAINTY.

Let's see where we are 36 ND games from now. And more specifically, how closely on track Freeman is to matching Kelly's 54-9 over the last 5 years. Anyone who achieves THAT I'd say, yeah, that's "the right guy."

 

[bunkum]

Man, I would really not want to be lost, in a hurry and stop to ask 4-4-3 for directions.

 

[Zorich 88]

Luke and Marcus have the same record as the ND Head Coach 0-0-0

 

[4-4-3]

Interesting post. To play devil's advocate, while Kelly was perhaps not a QB killer, neither was he a QB developer. From my perspective, none of the QBs you list seemed to improve to any great degree under Kelly's tutelage. The "ball of clay" he was given to mold seemed to keep its same shape while those guys were at ND. Everett Golson, for example, is a guy that I had very high hopes for. NFL caliber arm, nimble and very good in the pocket. In my view Golson was every bit as good as Johnny Manziel, though Johnny Touchdown certainly had EG beat in the swagger department. EG had some great games--his best game might have been the controversial loss to FSU--but I really thought he could have been something special. That just didn't happen under Kelly. Part of that, of course, may have been EG's own fault with his academic indiscretions, which undoubtedly stagnated his development. When he fell apart at the end of the 2014 season, I saw that as a crisis of confidence, not a lack of talent. What did Kelly do to restore EG's confidence? Nothing to not much, as far I could tell. I don't think that happens with Lincoln Riley or some other coach with a talent for developing QBs.

While Golson, Wimbush, Crist and Zaire didn't really flash after they transferred to other schools, I don't really find that surprising. They had limited development under Kelly, and then when they transferred to other schools they had to learn a new system and work with all new coaches. It would have been a lot to expect to see them suddenly turn into the reincarnation of Joe Montana in the space of one season. Unless those new coaches were miracle workers, I don't find it surprising that the skills they learned under Kelly didn't translate well at new schools.

I guess we will soon find out with Marcus Freeman whether Tommy Rees, who is now being given a pretty free hand to run the offense, is going to be able to do things with Freeman that he just wasn't able to do under Kelly.

Fair points, but I'm sticking to my guns.

But let me ask you -- what exactly is DEVELOPING a QB? I played 3 years of HS football and 2 in college, and I NEVER SAW ONE QB "GET DEVELOPED." Sure, there were technical fixes and foot fault corrections, but the guys EITHER HAD IT OR THEY DIDN'T. OR -- there was some degree of talent, but limited.

Also, just because a guy is rated highly in HS doesn't mean that will carry over into college. Andrew Hendrix was a prime example of that and perhaps Crist as well. Reads, speed of the game, etc. Whereas some lower rated player, such as Rees actually finds he has greater where withal in the college game as he doesn't get rattled.

And if performing poorly after transferring to another school and learning a new system is such a disadvantage, how come it wasn't so overwhelmingly problematic for Coan? Even when forced to work under so-called QB-destroyer Brian Kelly! My guess is that Coan was a better QB to begin with than any of those ND QB's who transferred. A better overall (mind + body) functioning QB. As was Rees -- as boring as he seemed. Whereas the others, I don't think, could handle Kelly. Might they have been too FRAGILE? It's possible. Kelly's not warm and fuzzy.

Finally, do you honestly think Lawrence or Mayfield or Hurts or Watson had to be DEVELOPED? Those guys were GAME-READY from day one. Did you ever watch Jaylon Hurts as a ball carrier at Bama or Lawrence play as a freshman? They were MONEY IN THE BANK. And as good as he was, Hurts got beaten out. And to top it off, both he and Tua, the guy who supplanted him, are playing in the League. Was Ian Book or Wimbush ever going to be "developed" into one of THOSE TWO? I don't see how.

Again, I just don't think ND has gotten the very best talent at the position since Clausen and before that, since Mirer and Rice. And when I say talent, I don't just mean STAR RATINGS -- I mean guys who PROVED OUT.

One more item:

Holtz was credited with improving Tony Rice's passing fundamentals. Sounds plausible. They needed improving. Yet, Holtz has also been castigated for RUINING Rick Mirer as a drop-back passer. Yet, when Bill Walsh -- founder of the West Coast offense and QB WHISPERER EMERITUS -- was doing ND games in the early 90's, he ABSOLUETLY GUSHED ABOUT MIRER AND WHAT A GREAT PASSER HE WAS. Yet, Mirer flopped in the NFL.

My point is, a lot of this has MORE TO DO WITH THE QB than with the COLLEGE COACH. You either keep making the cut at the next level or you don't. So, I don't at all fault Brian Kelly for the team's QB play during his tenure. Besides, there's little to apologize for. Kelly won close to 74% of his games. Given ND's self-imposed limitations, how GREEDY are we supposed to be?

 

[4-4-3]

Claussen was in the pros for 5 years.....and one could argue that he had a better pro career than Manziel.

Manziel was better in college as he had more tools. Possibly the most exciting player of his time. Claussen was very good in college but had LEAD FEET.

Yes, neither did well in the pros, but in Manziel's case, I'd attribute that to his being a HEAD CASE, whereas Claussen simply couldn't get off his throws. Zero mobility as per NFL standards.

 

[4-4-3]

It's just basic numbers. If you lose 10 or 11 undergrad transfers each year and replace them with 3 grad transfers, then you're going to have to increase your number of recruits in each freshman class, in order to keep your scholarship numbers at/near the maximum of 85.

So you'd probably end up with a roster comprised of relatively more freshmen and fewer upperclassmen than in the past, when transferring wasn't so easy.

So we should probably also try to recruit several grad transfers each year, to balance that out with some more experienced players.

Yes, I follow you. But in the past, ND's second and third stringers basically stayed put giving the team greater depth. Now, those guys can CHECK OUT AT WILL and go play for, among others, Pitt, North Carolina or Miami.

At the same time, this is also going on at other schools, so that a greater balancing of talent is occurring throughout the sport FOR ALL WHO ARE PLAYING THIS GAME AT SCALE. In other words, it's a formula for GREATER PARITY for those schools which are both BUYERS and SELLERS, but for schools, such as ND which will most likely be SELLERS more than BUYERS, they'll wind up with FEWER PREMIUM PLAYERS BEYOND THEIR FIRST STRING.

For ND, this looks like a potential DEPTH-KILLER. And as such, if it causes the team's records to worsen, then it hurts recruiting OVERALL, and recruits start negatively selecting against ND as it isn't winning, and the whole thing starts to snowball.

(So, are you glad you took this job, Marcus?)

As for letting in two or three undergrad transfers a year, how would that work? Guys who aren't playing at FSU will decide to transfer to ND instead of, say, Georgia or even MSU where they don't have to be as concerned -- if at all -- with academics? I don't see it happening. ND is ALREADY NOT A DESTINATION FOR MANY OF THESE PLAYERS.

That's not about to change.

Besides, three transfers a year won't nearly be enough.

 

[4-4-3]

Rick Mirer says what about me ?

I don't know.

But if you'd like to discuss Rick Mirer, shoot.

 

[4-4-3]

Man, I would really not want to be in a lost, in a hurry and stop to ask 4-4-3 for directions.

Not true. You'd be safe with me. That's a different HORSE for a different COURSE. People stop me in New York for directions ALL THE TIME. And I get them there. PRONTO.

Where you need to worry, though, is in TOKYO. Because of the nature of the culture, the Japanese feel that if you ask them directions, they MUST get you there even if THEY DON'T KNOW where you're going. It's a case of FACE over PLACE, so people get sent on JOURNEYS.

But with me, that will NEVER happen. No worries.

 

[bunkum]

Not true. You'd be safe with me. That's a different HORSE for a different COURSE. People stop me in New York for directions ALL THE TIME. And I get them there. PRONTO.

Where you need to worry, though, is in TOKYO. Because of the nature of the culture, the Japanese feel that if you ask them directions, they MUST get you there even if THEY DON'T KNOW where you're going. It's a case of FACE over PLACE, so people get sent on JOURNEYS.

But with me, that will NEVER happen. No worries.

Thank you. I 🤔think.

 

[mbd11]

Yes, I follow you. But in the past, ND's second and third stringers basically stayed put giving the team greater depth. Now, those guys can CHECK OUT AT WILL and go play for, among others, Pitt, North Carolina or Miami.

At the same time, this is also going on at other schools, so that a greater balancing of talent is occurring throughout the sport FOR ALL WHO ARE PLAYING THIS GAME AT SCALE. In other words, it's a formula for GREATER PARITY for those schools which are both BUYERS and SELLERS, but for schools, such as ND which will most likely be SELLERS more than BUYERS, they'll wind up with FEWER PREMIUM PLAYERS BEYOND THEIR FIRST STRING.

For ND, this looks like a potential DEPTH-KILLER. And as such, if it causes the team's records to worsen, then it hurts recruiting OVERALL, and recruits start negatively selecting against ND as it isn't winning, and the whole thing starts to snowball.

(So, are you glad you took this job, Marcus?)

As for letting in two or three undergrad transfers a year, how would that work? Guys who aren't playing at FSU will decide to transfer to ND instead of, say, Georgia or even MSU where they don't have to be as concerned -- if at all -- with academics? I don't see it happening. ND is ALREADY NOT A DESTINATION FOR MANY OF THESE PLAYERS.

That's not about to change.

Besides, three transfers a year won't nearly be enough.

I agree that it'll hurt depth. It's already hurting us at WR. Which is why I suggested increasing the number of both freshman recruits and grad transfers to make up for transfer losses each year.

 

[mirer03]

If there’s a mass exodus at the wr position after promoting freeman to HC and giving Rees big raise jack probably made a big mistake. You made those moves fast to keep the team in tact. If they can’t even do that then what was the point?

Omg the sky is falling. This happens with coaching changes. Calm down.

 

[Drinking The Green Koolaid]

Fair points, but I'm sticking to my guns.

But let me ask you -- what exactly is DEVELOPING a QB? I played 3 years of HS football and 2 in college, and I NEVER SAW ONE QB "GET DEVELOPED." Sure, there were technical fixes and foot fault corrections, but the guys EITHER HAD IT OR THEY DIDN'T. OR -- there was some degree of talent, but limited.

Also, just because a guy is rated highly in HS doesn't mean that will carry over into college. Andrew Hendrix was a prime example of that and perhaps Crist as well. Reads, speed of the game, etc. Whereas some lower rated player, such as Rees actually finds he has greater where withal in the college game as he doesn't get rattled.

And if performing poorly after transferring to another school and learning a new system is such a disadvantage, how come it wasn't so overwhelmingly problematic for Coan? Even when forced to work under so-called QB-destroyer Brian Kelly! My guess is that Coan was a better QB to begin with than any of those ND QB's who transferred. A better overall (mind + body) functioning QB. As was Rees -- as boring as he seemed. Whereas the others, I don't think, could handle Kelly. Might they have been too FRAGILE? It's possible. Kelly's not warm and fuzzy.

Finally, do you honestly think Lawrence or Mayfield or Hurts or Watson had to be DEVELOPED? Those guys were GAME-READY from day one. Did you ever watch Jaylon Hurts as a ball carrier at Bama or Lawrence play as a freshman? They were MONEY IN THE BANK. And as good as he was, Hurts got beaten out. And to top it off, both he and Tua, the guy who supplanted him, are playing in the League. Was Ian Book or Wimbush ever going to be "developed" into one of THOSE TWO? I don't see how.

Again, I just don't think ND has gotten the very best talent at the position since Clausen and before that, since Mirer and Rice. And when I say talent, I don't just mean STAR RATINGS -- I mean guys who PROVED OUT.

One more item:

Holtz was credited with improving Tony Rice's passing fundamentals. Sounds plausible. They needed improving. Yet, Holtz has also been castigated for RUINING Rick Mirer as a drop-back passer. Yet, when Bill Walsh -- founder of the West Coast offense and QB WHISPERER EMERITUS -- was doing ND games in the early 90's, he ABSOLUETLY GUSHED ABOUT MIRER AND WHAT A GREAT PASSER HE WAS. Yet, Mirer flopped in the NFL.

My point is, a lot of this has MORE TO DO WITH THE QB than with the COLLEGE COACH. You either keep making the cut at the next level or you don't. So, I don't at all fault Brian Kelly for the team's QB play during his tenure. Besides, there's little to apologize for. Kelly won close to 74% of his games. Given ND's self-imposed limitations, how GREEDY are we supposed to be?

You can absolutely develop a QB. Maybe some QBs are born to play the position, but certainly not all of them are. You can work with a kid and develop a quick release. Dan Marino was probably born with a quick release, but that is also something that can be taught. So can the proper arm slot. Accuracy. Arm strength. All those skills can be developed through drills. Maybe those are things you consider "technical fixes," but I consider them to be part of developing a QB. And those are just the mechanical aspects of playing the position. Understanding receiver routes and reading a defense are mental skills that can be developed with good coaching.

You cite Jalen Hurts. I honestly wasn't all that impressed with him at Bama. I thought he was good, but he wasn't great. It didn't surprise me when Tua beat him out. Then Hurts transfers to OU (apparently with Saban's encouragement) and plays for a coach who has a reputation for developing QBs--Lincoln Riley--and he elevated his game.

And look at Trever Lawrence. There is no question he has natural ability to play the position, but look what has happened to him in the NFL. Did he suddenly get bad, or is he not getting good coaching?

As for Coan, I give Rees more credit for his development than Kelly.

I agree with you that being a great QB is more of a God given talent than a skill that can be taught, but I am not willing to completely disregard the value of good coaching.

I played QB in HS, but we played more of a single wing offense, long before the advent of today's pass happy game. It was three yards and a cloud of dust in those days. I didn't line up under center very often. I doubt I threw the ball more than 7 or 8 times in an entire game.

 

[Bumpdaddy]

You can absolutely develop a QB. Maybe some QBs are born to play the position, but certainly not all of them are. You can work with a kid and develop a quick release. Dan Marino was probably born with a quick release, but that is also something that can be taught. So can the proper arm slot. Accuracy. Arm strength. All those skills can be developed through drills. Maybe those are things you consider "technical fixes," but I consider them to be part of developing a QB. And those are just the mechanical aspects of playing the position. Understanding receiver routes and reading a defense are mental skills that can be developed with good coaching.

You cite Jalen Hurts. I honestly wasn't all that impressed with him at Bama. I thought he was good, but he wasn't great. It didn't surprise me when Tua beat him out. Then Hurts transfers to OU (apparently with Saban's encouragement) and plays for a coach who has a reputation for developing QBs--Lincoln Riley--and he elevated his game.

And look at Trever Lawrence. There is no question he has natural ability to play the position, but look what has happened to him in the NFL. Did he suddenly get bad, or is he not getting good coaching?

As for Coan, I give Rees more credit for his development than Kelly.

I agree with you that being a great QB is more of a God given talent than a skill that can be taught, but I am not willing to completely disregard the value of good coaching.

I played QB in HS, but we played more of a single wing offense, long before the advent of today's pass happy game. It was three yards and a cloud of dust in those days. I didn't line up under center very often. I doubt I threw the ball more than 7 or 8 times in an entire game.

Good post. The idea that QBs, or any position, can't or aren't developed is a ridiculous assertion and there have been several posters on this board who believe the same thing. It's a wonder how anyone who follows football can actually believe that. If Kyler Murray hadn't transferred from Texas A&M after struggling his 1st year he'd likely be playing in MLB. He almost certainly wouldn't have won the Heisman and been the #1 overall pick. There are a lot of other examples of QBs who struggle under 1 coach and then flourish under another. The idea that that happens by chance or is just a matter of the player suddenly figuring it out on his own is silly.

 

[bunkum]

Not many kudos about the ND class‘s very impressive 7th spot standing in the recruiting rankings. There are still commits and signings yet to come but ND may hold to a Top 10 finish. In such a chaotic past 4-6 weeks, ND fans should be encouraged by the staff efforts.

 

[Get Nasty]

Not many kudos about the ND class‘s very impressive 7th spot standing in the recruiting rankings. There are still commits and signings yet to come but ND may hold to a Top 10 finish. In such a chaotic past 4-6 weeks, ND fans should be encouraged by the staff efforts.

If we don’t lose a bunch of eta to transfer or nfl…. Those are recruits too

 

[mirer03]

I fully expect it to be fine as well….But I’m not good with fine … next year could be special if the right pieces come back and Buchner develops

And if fans don't freak out over the drastic change on offense.

 

[4-4-3]

I agree that it'll hurt depth. It's already hurting us at WR. Which is why I suggested increasing the number of both freshman recruits and grad transfers to make up for transfer losses each year.

Yes, and I understand you as well. But ND is already fishing in a limited pool. You can increase recruits and grad transfers in theory, but that doesn't mean ND will get better quality than it's getting now. Nor will it stop those of better quality from transferring the moment they're not playing.

If people start moving around in great quantity, to the extent ND does not permit itself to partake in that process, it will, as a direct result, be hurt. It won't be able to maintain itself as a premium program, much as would be the case with an MLB team that couldn't sign free agents. And to the extent that many franchises can't keep up with their big-market counterparts, that's already the case.

ND is not set up for the way CFB looks to be going.