Had she not had a history of mental health issues you could accept that connection on face value. She did, you can't.
Prince Shembo... SMDH
- Thread starter SALittleGiant513
- Start date
I realize YOU said that. But the main proponents (if that's the right word) of this story, like David Haugh and Melissa Hennenberger (sp?) accept that connection as simple fact, when it's anything but that.
Really? What kind of twisted part of the globe do you come from where half its inhabitants exhibit that type of cruelty?
I imagine they have done much more research into the issue the we have. I know they have done more researched then at least I have.
they may have done research into the matter; but if you start with a conclusion, then the research does not take you where it otherwise might lead you.
We know the young Lady had pre existing mental health problems.
We know something took place to upset her.
We can surmize that her reaction in light of her past troubles caused her to respond in a way that was extraordinary, extreme and dire.
We now know that due to her suicide we may never know much more than that.
Unless PS speaks more on the matter revealing previously unknown information no investigation or conjecture will ever rise to a level beyond 'subjective speculation'; usually motivated by some subjective bias.
The above sentence describes the 2 reporters mentioned.
Yay, the "board ops impersonator" is chiming in....
"If an ID gets banned, ALL the ID's from that IP address will be shucking corn!
You might want to learn to post with some degree of respect and civility. I have no reluctance to send you packing." 20perseverare,Saturday at 7:42 PM
"slow on the uptake? implying?
then if you lose this access ...
22perseverare,Saturday at 9:08 PM"
It would be good if we could access Lizzy Seeburg's statement. Here's what her aunt wrote on the other site after this recent shembo incident:
"As Lizzy Seeberg's aunt,
by SMCgrad79
and one who has actually seen her statement, I'd like to correct this widely repeated gross misrepresentation of the facts. The idea that "nothing happened" in Prince Shembo's room stems from DA Michael Dvorak's description of her complaint as a simple "touching of her breasts". Mr. Dvorak has two sons who graduated from Notre Dame, one of whom was running for mayor of South Bend at the time. He gave ND a huge gift with this misleading statement.
Dvorak doesn't reveal that Lizzy was surprised and uneasy when the other two students left the room and, in a polite attempt to follow them, told Shembo that she needed to use the restroom. When Shembo responds that there are no female bathrooms in the dorm, she says she'll use the male restroom instead. He insists that he'll get into trouble if she does so and that she will just "have to pee in the sink." This is the prelude to the assault (rather than a kiss, as you assert), which began with the forced removal of her shirt and bra and an attempt to remove her pants and ended when he abruptly threw her to the floor, yelling that he "could lose his scholarship for this". Lizzy describes being forcibly held down and attacked. Whether or not you believe her statement, it most definitely does not bear any resemblance to Mr. Dvorak's representation of what she alleged happened."
"In addition she wrote on shembo:
Not surprising considering his history
by SMCgrad79 (2015-05-29 22:22:30)
of violence. A bully throughout elementary school. Attended 3 middle schools - kicked out of the first two for violent episodes. Multiple suspensions throughout high school, the last for throwing a desk at a teacher. And then Lizzy Seeberg within two weeks of arriving at ND."
well^, it is a shame that justice was denied. But in order to get justice we needed Lizzy.
What could be done ? Does Lizzy's family have a suggestion, given the fact that the justice system was stymied?
No one is denying the trajic nature of what happened.
I actually believe the Aunt's account (just personal opinion)
But, who is it that ultimately let PS off the hook ?
What could be done ? Does Lizzy's family have a suggestion, given the fact that the justice system was stymied?
No one is denying the trajic nature of what happened.
I actually believe the Aunt's account (just personal opinion)
But, who is it that ultimately let PS off the hook ?
And here is a llnk that bares reading....
http://ndnation.com/boards/showpost.php?b=football;pid=39284;d=this
http://ndnation.com/boards/showpost.php?b=football;pid=39284;d=this
if there is any - any truth to the Shembo history described, while the justice system may have been thwarted by Lizzie's death, surely Shembo should have been placed on the 1st car, truck, train or plane out of town! Whoever was the decision maker to make that happen, that is where the failure took place.
so now we find more bogus findings.. Is the Aunt the Aunt or another poster with an agenda ...
see this is where the problem lies! or lies.
The incident is forever a mystery; but does anyone know if the information regards Shembo's past is in any way accurate? Surely that is subject to verification or confirmation?
see this is where the problem lies! or lies.
The incident is forever a mystery; but does anyone know if the information regards Shembo's past is in any way accurate? Surely that is subject to verification or confirmation?
Perse I don't think the justice system ever had much of a role in this. No witnesses, no evidence, conflicting stories. I have always believed that the police's laissez-faire attitude towards the case was driven by the belief that there would be no case to make, versus some nefarious other reasons.
This argument works both ways. When you contextualize it with the Winston matter. Rationalizing like this runs really close to victim shaming in some situations.
Either way the fact of the matter is that Shembo's incident while at ND doesn't affect that fact that his alleged criminal actions in this instance reflect poorly on himself and ND. As I stated in the OP, ND fans want to rail on other schools when their student athletes make terrible decisions and act a fool but its not like ND is immune from this phenomenon. ND may hold their players accountable more often then other schools do but doing so doesn't just make the fact that bad decisions are being made go away.
^ ND does not limit 'free wiil' so yup, things will happen; the difference is and it is NOT a small matter AND it is what sets ND apart AND it does give cred to ND fans towards their right to point the finger! That thing is just what you pount out: ACCOUNTABILiTY.
BTW: you keep bringing the JW compatison; I see no relationship here; other than a wrong doing.
BTW: you keep bringing the JW compatison; I see no relationship here; other than a wrong doing.
agree but if that comment about Shembo's pre ND troubles has any credibility, then someone screwed up before during and more during!
One thing we don't mention is the 2 potential creeps that left Lizzie alone as possible prey! Did they leave so Shem could be alone with her? What were they thinking? They probably will say little but ?
I agree. However, it would be nice to see the statement and that is my point. Plus, I was not aware of Shembo's pre ND background.
How dare you talk about cred/accountability.
"AND it is what sets ND apart AND it does give cred to ND fans towards their right to point the finger! That thing is just what you pount out: ACCOUNTABILiTY."
You falsely claimed to be a board op. Unreal....
You see no relationship yet you contextualized Shembo's situation with a comparison to JW in one of your first posts on the thread. Thus, we have continued a debate on how different the Shembo and JW matters really are. Because you think that accountability is so important and you have compared Shembo to JW with the implicit argument being that FSU didn't hold JW accountable and should have, its therefore relevant to discuss the reasons ND couldn't hold Shembo accountable according to you and the implications those reasons have on the JW situation.
If your kid gets caught drinking at a house party and the cops arrest him but you just pay the fine as a parent and let the matter go, while my kid also gets caught but instead of paying the fine I made my kid pay the fine himself and took away his car, can I point my finger at you and say you're a bad parent but I am not a bad parent?
If your kid gets caught drinking at a house party and the cops arrest him but you just pay the fine as a parent and let the matter go, while my kid also gets caught but instead of paying the fine I made my kid pay the fine himself and took away his car, can I point my finger at you and say you're a bad parent but I am not a bad parent?
never claimed nothing; you continue to have as a posted pounted out, reading comprehension issues.
What I said was I have no reservation pointing out any habitual violation of board rules. Emotions can run high and things can be said, but when it becomes a posters norm or style then the forum can do without that/them.
Also, why do we as ND fans need to point our fingers at other schools? Even if us pointing our fingers at other schools has some level of credibility, why is it necessary?
Right, people do it all the time and it is just a bad look. Its problematic to say "our team does it right, just look at all of team "X's" players getting in trouble" when ND has players doing stupid things, getting in trouble and making bad decisions just like a lot of other schools.
You are a flat out liar. Below is exactly what you wrote. Now tell me how you weren't implying you were a board op. My comprehension is spot on and you are grasping at straws. Tell me where my comprehension is off. On top of your obvious lying, your Kelly NFL GM remark is preposterous as is your suggesting to know aything about his organization/management skills... Combining lying, manipulation and less than intelligent thought is something you are good at....
Tell me more about my multiple IP handles liar.
"lemme tell you something; you 2 carry on trashing the board callously, but unlikethe previous version of this forum, the IP addresses are notated here. If an ID gets banned, ALL the ID's from that IP address will be shucking corn!
You might want to learn to post with some degree of respect and civility. I have no reluctance to send you packing."
20perseverare,Saturday at 7:42 PM
slow on the uptake? implying?
then if you lose this access ...
22 perseverare, Saturday at 9:08 PM
Sal:
last question:
what would be a worse situation?
a young person doing wrong with no consequences
a young person doing wrong with constructive, corrective and/or punitive consequences?
Perse I understand where you going but there are some issues....
1) You question looks at what happens after the fact. When ND fans say see our players are the right kind of guys and yours are not, the reaction to the bad act is relevant but the foundation of that mindset is that ND is bringing in "better quality" of people and is fostering an environment that is less likely to lead to its players doing wrong.
2) Your question assumes that the consequences are corrective and/or constructive. I would argue that they may be constructive to that player but they don't necessarily deter other players from making similar mistakes.
3) Whether a person is punished or not doesn't affect the fact that that the wrong was committed. It doesn't take the wrong away. It doesn't erase the wrong from having occurred.
If there is growth and/or rehabilitation that is a result of the consequences then the latter is better.
1) You question looks at what happens after the fact. When ND fans say see our players are the right kind of guys and yours are not, the reaction to the bad act is relevant but the foundation of that mindset is that ND is bringing in "better quality" of people and is fostering an environment that is less likely to lead to its players doing wrong.
2) Your question assumes that the consequences are corrective and/or constructive. I would argue that they may be constructive to that player but they don't necessarily deter other players from making similar mistakes.
3) Whether a person is punished or not doesn't affect the fact that that the wrong was committed. It doesn't take the wrong away. It doesn't erase the wrong from having occurred.
If there is growth and/or rehabilitation that is a result of the consequences then the latter is better.
Weasel perse is among the last people on this board that should be discussing ethics/morality. Do you notice how he avoided ND's preferential treatment towards Michael Floyd or ND's preferential treatment towards Rees? We are not without "exceptions" that some non alum seem hell bent on ignoring....
The lack of transparency/honest by some posters fuels ill will toward the school.. perse and Argus are poster children for it. Their willingness to manipulate and pump sunshine about unfortunate issue is a blight.
Nobody who knows what Floyd went through that spring and summer would ever say he got preferential treatment. 90% of players around the country would have just transferred someplace else.
How many games did he miss? That's is a major component of player discipline for serious off field transgressions. PS on another note the NCAA still has to weigh in on the academic problems. I am hoping we did enough, but if there are eligibility issues we could see wins vacated....
