Freeman is a message board hire

[Kontiki09]

You don't have a leg to stand on, dude. And why are you doing this? This is insane, you're the one that needs help here. There's no call for any of this. You guys are absolutely crucifying the all-time winning coach in ND history, who returned the ND to the top, who's 43-4 in the last four seasons.

This is like Soviet Russia, I'm not kidding. You guys are completely smearing every aspect of his existence. You're turning him into an un-person. Every podcast, including on this website, is dragging his name through the mud, and tearing his reputation to pieces. Aggressively, with viciousness, lying about him.... You guys are hyenas, there's no reason for this!

If you have any dignity or decency as a human being you will please, I beg of you, just STFU. I know you feel the pressure of the mob, and you don't dare go against it. But you could at least just not contribute to it yourself.....

Nobody in this thread is bashing MF at all. We're just not bashing BK, and that's the only thing you care about it, quite clearly. That everyone participate in this tribal execution of BK's legacy. Anyway, for the love of all that's decent.... restrain yourself. You're a grown man. Please let it die.... And encourage the rest of your little mob to do the same....

First, at no point have I lied about Brian Kelly. Ever. Go ahead and point out a single one of my lies. I'll wait.

Second, I'll "STFU" if you "STFU." Who are you dude....You Brian Kelly's knight in shining armor (like he needs you to protect him from the big bad posters on an ND message board, LMFAO)?

Third, please explain to me how presenting Brian Kelly's statistics against ranked opponents is "bashing BK." The facts are the facts, bud. Do you deny them? Either way, not my problem if they hurt your feelings.

Lastly, and here's how I know you're are an absolute troll. OUTSIDE OF REFERENCING BRIAN KELLY'S RECORD, AT NO POINT HAVE YOU COUNTERED ANY OF MY POSTS WITH FACTS, STATISTICS, OR EVEN LOGICAL REASONING OF YOUR OWN.

And in yet another hilarious twist of irony, you have the audacity to condemn our supposed name-calling and attacks, and yet, IN THE SAME POST, type out a tirade laced with sarcasm, name calling, and outright lies.

I tried to genuinely be nice to you, man. I really, honestly and truly tried. You're hopeless. I finally understand why you're this boards pariah. Congrats.

 

[savvyandsassier]

First, at no point have I lied about Brian Kelly. Ever. Go ahead and point out a single one of my lies. I'll wait.

Second, I'll "STFU" if you "STFU." Who are you dude....You Brian Kelly's knight in shining armor (like he needs you to protect him from the big bad posters on an ND message board, LMFAO)?

Third, please explain to me how presenting Brian Kelly's statistics against ranked opponents is "bashing BK." The facts are the facts, bud. Do you deny them? Either way, not my problem if they hurt your feelings.

Lastly, and here's how I know you're are an absolute troll. OUTSIDE OF REFERENCING BRIAN KELLY'S RECORD, AT NO POINT HAVE YOU COUNTERED ANY OF MY POSTS WITH FACTS, STATISTICS, OR EVEN LOGICAL REASONING OF YOUR OWN.

And in yet another hilarious twist of irony, you have the audacity to condemn our supposed name-calling and attacks, and yet, IN THE SAME POST, type out a tirade laced with sarcasm, name calling, and outright lies.

I tried to genuinely be nice to you, man. I really, honestly and truly tried. You're hopeless. I finally understand why you're this boards pariah. Congrats.

Save it, man. Just save it.

Like i said, I'm begging you to stop. You don't have a leg to stand on, and it's time for you to stop.

 

[Kontiki09]

Save it, man. Just save it.

Like i said, I'm begging you to stop. You don't have a leg to stand on, and it's time for you to stop.

Lol, pathetic, but It’s all good man. I’ll stop. I know it’s starting to get really embarrassing for you. Catch ya on the next super well thought out, and not emotionally reactive post of yours. Lmaoooo

 

[savvyandsassier]

Lol, pathetic, but It’s all good man. I’ll stop. I know it’s starting to get really embarrassing for you. Catch ya on the next super well thought out, and not emotionally reactive post of yours. Lmaoooo

Sounds good to me. Just zip it. Sew your mouth shut....

 

[4-4-3]

Since you're a stats guy, here are some stats for you (and Ms. Sassy):

Kelly: 30.7% of games against ranked teams, 40.4% win percentage against ranked teams. 16.7% win percentage against top 10 teams.

Weis: 21.0% of games against ranked teams, 7.7% win percentage against ranked teams. 0.0% win percentage against top teams.

Willingham: 47.2% of games against ranked teams, 47.1% win percentage against ranked teams, 33.3% win percentage against top 10 teams.

Davie: 31.7% of games against ranked teams, 26.3% win percentage against ranked teams, 0.0% win percentage against top 10 teams.

Holtz: 42.4% of games against ranked teams, 55.4% win percentage against ranked teams, 45.5% win percentage against top 10 teams.

Here's the point. Lou Holtz has proven that ND is capable of going into any top 10 matchup and having a 50% chance of winning. Holtz needs to be the standard. Period.

The larger, overall point, however, is that stats can be skewed any which way, and despite your best intentions to utilize facts objectively, they almost never are used in that manner. If they were, you would realize that while Kelly was absolutely and unequivocally an upgrade over Willingham, Davie, and Weis, he is nowhere near Holtz.

Here's the irony of all your posts. You and Savvy continually remind this entire board with pleonastic posts of Kelly's record these past 5 years, but outright refuse to discuss Kelly's abject failure in being prepared when it matters most. Cincy this year? Loss. Bama in 2012? Blowout loss. Clemson last year when they had their starting QB? Blowout loss. Miami? Blowout loss. The list goes on, and on, and on. And, what makes this better is that Kelly has had 12 years (YES..TWELVE YEARS. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, and 12 years) to win a NC. He didn't.

So, tell me. Would you rather have a 54-9 record, but know with absolute certainty that you will NEVER win a National Championship....or.....would you rather go out and hire a guy that can recruit with the best of them (yet another "stat" that is often left out in your arguments), that is beloved by everyone that meets him, that is humble and authentic, and that clearly loves his players?

To top this all off, the way Kelly left is absolutely despicable. Just read this ARTICLE for more evidence of his scumbaggery.

Kelly did some great things for ND, no question. I'm grateful for that. But, you guys have to stop sucking the farts out of his butthole. He's not THAT great, and he deserves every ounce of criticism he has received over the past few days.

Why so apoplectic?

Has Marcus Freeman been syndicated like a thoroughbred with people owning shares in him? It sure sounds like it. I haven't seen this many would-be grooms in a stable since Secretariat.

And my defending Kelly's record is what? Some monstrous sin?

So, you regret Kelly didn't win more big games. My condolences to you. He still put together a BODY OF WORK and became ND's all-time winning coach. You're not impressed by that? Well, sounds like you're a HARD GRADER. Just be sure to keep your pencil as sharp for Freeman. No use of the bell curve, please.

And where did I pit Kelly against Holtz? Still, to be honest, Holtz had a FREE HAND in recruiting for about FIVE YEARS, and that's when he really won big. Kelly had no such latitude and won almost as frequently over a similar stretch.

You'd rather have a coach right now with ZERO EXPERIENCE? Well, you have one -- and enjoy it for however long it lasts, however long that may be.

I'd rather still have Kelly, even if he's only the DEVIL I KNOW. And maybe BECAUSE of it as well.

 

[r2p2]

Then the board should be commended on it’s decision.

 

[Kontiki09]

Why so apoplectic?

Has Marcus Freeman been syndicated like a thoroughbred with people owning shares in him? It sure sounds like it. I haven't seen this many would-be grooms in a stable since Secretariat.

And my defending Kelly's record is what? Some monstrous sin?

So, you regret Kelly didn't win more big games. My condolences to you. He still put together a BODY OF WORK and became ND's all-time winning coach. You're not impressed by that? Well, sounds like you're a HARD GRADER. Just be sure to keep your pencil as sharp for Freeman. No use of the bell curve, please.

And where did I pit Kelly against Holtz? Still, to be honest, Holtz had a FREE HAND in recruiting for about FIVE YEARS, and that's when he really won big. Kelly had no such latitude and won almost as frequently over a similar stretch.

You'd rather have a coach right now with ZERO EXPERIENCE? Well, you have one -- and enjoy it for however long it lasts, however long that may be.

I'd rather still have Kelly, even if he's only the DEVIL I KNOW. And maybe BECAUSE of it as well.

Fair points. I think we can both agree Kelly did great things at ND (I said as much at the end of my post).

My overall point on Holtz was that he should be the standard. And it’s a little misleading to say Holtz had a free hand in recruiting for 5 years. That’s simply not true. He has a little leeway here and there, but it’s not like he was able to get anyone and everyone he wanted, regardless of academic or personal history.

And I’m not saying MF is going to be NDs savior, but let’s not act like Kelly was either. The fact is that he NEVER won a NC in 12 years, nor did he ever win a NY6 bowl game.

Im genuinely curious why you are advocating for Kelly so hard, given his proven 12 year track record in failing to win when it mattered most. Why do you think he didn’t win?

 

[4-4-3]

I'm just surprised, honestly surprised, that's there no buzz at all about any changes. At least among the fans. This was not a popular staff. Pretty much down the line. Elston finally earned some respect, with the way the DL has emerged these last few years. And I guess everyone wanted Lance Taylor as a hip young RB coach. But that's about it. And MF himself of course when he was DC.

And it's pure crickets. If I had a nickel for every time BK was bashed for hiring his cronies, unlike Nick Saban who would aggressively bring in top assistants on an annual basis.... I'd have a lot of nickels. And it's true BK really did do that, and that's what apparently worked for him. Staying in his comfort zone.

But maybe that's what MF's going to do. BK has been offed, so to speak, in essence, and MF will pretty much continue exactly with what BK has already laid down, with bare minimal changes made....

I think MF will be extremely conservative as he doesn't sound like he has too firm a grip yet on what to do. I'm not even sure he expected to be offered. Does he have the worldly-wisdom or GRAVITAS to go out and get the right assistants? Given his inexperience, it wouldn't be surprising if he doesn't.

My only concern is his going SOLELY the young & hip route though it may be his only frame of reference as older coaches might not wish to work for him. I mean, how would a David Cutliffe, for instance, report to a first-time 35 year old? This can be a problem when the top guy has no experience.

 

[Kontiki09]

I think MF will be extremely conservative as he doesn't sound like he has too firm a grip yet on what to do. I'm not even sure he expected to be offered. Does he have the worldly-wisdom or GRAVITAS to go out and get the right assistants? Given his inexperience, it wouldn't be surprising if he doesn't.

My only concern is his going SOLELY the young & hip route though it may be his only frame of reference as older coaches might not wish to work for him. I mean, how would a David Cutliffe, for instance, report to a first-time 35 year old? This can be a problem when the top guy has no experience.

good thing you weren’t on the hiring committee when Oklahoma brought on Riley, lol. Or when McVay was brought on to coach the Rams.

 

[savvyandsassier]

Why so apoplectic?

Has Marcus Freeman been syndicated like a thoroughbred with people owning shares in him? It sure sounds like it. I haven't seen this many would-be grooms in a stable since Secretariat.

And my defending Kelly's record is what? Some monstrous sin?

So, you regret Kelly didn't win more big games. My condolences to you. He still put together a BODY OF WORK and became ND's all-time winning coach. You're not impressed by that? Well, sounds like you're a HARD GRADER. Just be sure to keep your pencil as sharp for Freeman. No use of the bell curve, please.

And where did I pit Kelly against Holtz? Still, to be honest, Holtz had a FREE HAND in recruiting for about FIVE YEARS, and that's when he really won big. Kelly had no such latitude and won almost as frequently over a similar stretch.

You'd rather have a coach right now with ZERO EXPERIENCE? Well, you have one -- and enjoy it for however long it lasts, however long that may be.

I'd rather still have Kelly, even if he's only the DEVIL I KNOW. And maybe BECAUSE of it as well.

One last thought... Marcus Freeman HAS to be aware of this insane, ugly, hate-filled reaction all throughout ND's football culture toward the 3-time national COY-winning coach that hired him, and the coach who's blueprint he appears to be planning on closely hewing to....

And as you are speculating, a coach who's level of success MF will be very hard pressed to match... It's out of the frying pan into the fire.

So good luck to you Marcus Freeman, you can see what awaits you if you trip up....

 

[savvyandsassier]

I think MF will be extremely conservative as he doesn't sound like he has too firm a grip yet on what to do. I'm not even sure he expected to be offered. Does he have the worldly-wisdom or GRAVITAS to go out and get the right assistants? Given his inexperience, it wouldn't be surprising if he doesn't.

My only concern is his going SOLELY the young & hip route though it may be his only frame of reference as older coaches might not wish to work for him. I mean, how would a David Cutliffe, for instance, report to a first-time 35 year old? This can be a problem when the top guy has no experience.

I hear all that. Generally that's why hiring young, inexperienced coaches is considered such a risky venture.

 

[4-4-3]

Fair points. I think we can both agree Kelly did great things at ND (I said as much at the end of my post).

My overall point on Holtz was that he should be the standard. And it’s a little misleading to say Holtz had a free hand in recruiting for 5 years. That’s simply not true. He has a little leeway here and there, but it’s not like he was able to get anyone and everyone he wanted, regardless of academic or personal history.

And I’m not saying MF is going to be NDs savior, but let’s not act like Kelly was either. The fact is that he NEVER won a NC in 12 years, nor did he ever win a NY6 bowl game.

Im genuinely curious why you are advocating for Kelly so hard, given his proven 12 year track record in failing to win when it mattered most. Why do you think he didn’t win?

There's no bigger supporter of Lou Holtz or his legacy on this board than me.

As for a free hand, HE ABSOLUTELY HAD ONE. Rice, Zorich, Stonebreaker, others. Vinny Cerrato put together FOUR NUMBER ONE classes in a row. You can't do that without being able to go after just about ANYONE YOU WANT. Tony Brooks was the NATIONAL GATORADE PLAYER OF THE YEAR. And from OKLAHOMA. Seen many of them around ND lately?

I'm defending Kelly because UNREALISTIC ASSUMPTIONS AND PREDICTIONS about Freeman are flowing like CHEAP WINE, most notably the poll on the other board where roughly 95% voted that they'd rather have Freeman as coach, implying he's more capable. Whereas had that vote been taken before Kelly left, that percentage would have been viewed as HALLUCINATORY.

I'm also not in favor of hiring FIRST TIME COACHES or FIRST TIME ANYTHINGS into significantly higher positions. Experience COUNTS. Plus, I'm a hedger, like to keep my balance, don''t go ALL IN on anything and always stand ready for REVERSALS OF FORTUNE. I come out of a background of international trade and finance, and there are CERTAIN LESSONS I'VE LEARNED.

Meanwhile, what I feel I'm watching is the same kind of GUSHING afforded POP STARS. People want to see Freeman as a hero. I don't buy into HERO NARRATIVES. Especially premature ones.

Let's see him EARN IT.

 

[francade]

Savvy, at least your bloviating is funny. 😉

 

[4-4-3]

I hear all that. Generally that's why hiring young, inexperienced coaches is considered such a risky venture.

Right.

And, remember. ND didn't really have any choice. it did not wish to lose that class. If worse comes to worst, better to have gotten that class and the next one even if Freeman doesn't pan out and needs to be dumped after year three.

In some ways, you could even call it a HAIL MARY.

Some of which work while MOST do not.

 

[mva5580]

I never cease to be amazed at how willing people are on here to endlessly go back and forth and accomplish nothing lol. Let it go everyone. Some of you will get your craved I told you so’s in the future.

 

[4-4-3]

One last thought... Marcus Freeman HAS to be aware of this insane, ugly, hate-filled reaction all throughout ND's football culture toward the 3-time national COY-winning coach that hired him, and the coach who's blueprint he appears to be planning on closely hewing to....

And as you are speculating, a coach who's level of success MF will be very hard pressed to match... It's out of the frying pan into the fire.

So good luck to you Marcus Freeman, you can see what awaits you if you trip up....

I think you've NAILED IT.

This guy's mettle will be tested. And, like you say, I think he KNOWS it. But at least he's provided for his family. If nothing else, it's a financial win, and he'll always be able to get another job.

For him, a RISK WORTH TAKING.

 

[HooDatGuy]

Freemen

Right.

And, remember. ND didn't really have any choice. it did not wish to lose that class. If worse comes to worst, better to have gotten that class and the next one even if Freeman doesn't pan out and needs to be dumped after year three.

In some ways, you could even call it a HAIL MARY.

Some of which work while MOST do not.

So if you’re in Jack’s shoes would you have waited until January in the hopes you can get Fickell or some other more proven HC? Knowing that means likely losing Freemen, Rees and cratering the 2022 and 2023 classes?

It was an unenviable decision to make. I think he made the right one.

 

[Kontiki09]

Pleas

There's no bigger supporter of Lou Holtz or his legacy on this board than me.

As for a free hand, HE ABSOLUTELY HAD ONE. Rice, Zorich, Stonebreaker, others. Vinny Cerrato put together FOUR NUMBER ONE classes in a row. You can't do that without being able to go after just about ANYONE YOU WANT. Tony Brooks was the NATIONAL GATORADE PLAYER OF THE YEAR. And from OKLAHOMA. Seen many of them around ND lately?

I'm defending Kelly because UNREALISTIC ASSUMPTIONS AND PREDICTIONS about Freeman are flowing like CHEAP WINE, most notably the poll on the other board where roughly 95% voted that they'd rather have Freeman as coach, implying he's more capable. Whereas had that vote been taken before Kelly left, that percentage would have been viewed as HALLUCINATORY.

I'm also not in favor of hiring FIRST TIME COACHES or FIRST TIME ANYTHINGS into significantly higher positions. Experience COUNTS. Plus, I'm a hedger, like to keep my balance, don''t go ALL IN on anything and always stand ready for REVERSALS OF FORTUNE. I come out of a background of international trade and finance, and there are CERTAIN LESSONS I'VE LEARNED.

Meanwhile, what I feel I'm watching is the same kind of GUSHING afforded POP STARS. People want to see Freeman as a hero. I don't buy into HERO NARRATIVES. Especially premature ones.

Let's see him EARN IT.

And I’m an attorney for a multibillion dollar company with 2 additional degrees, so I can spot when someone is attempting to avoid a line of questioning. So I ask you again. WHY DO YOU THINK KELLY DIDNT WIN A NC OR ANY GAME WHEN IT MATTERED MOST?

 

[HooDatGuy]

I'm also not in favor of hiring FIRST TIME COACHES or FIRST TIME ANYTHINGS into significantly higher positions. Experience COUNTS. Plus, I'm a hedger, like to keep my balance, don''t go ALL IN on anything and always stand ready for REVERSALS OF FORTUNE. I come out of a background of international trade and finance, and there are CERTAIN LESSONS I'VE LEARNED.

And I’m an attorney for a multibillion dollar company with 2 additional degrees, so I can spot when someone is attempting to avoid a line of questioning.

It’s a credential off!

 

[Kontiki09]

It’s a credential off!

Lol right? Like it adds anything to an argument, Lmaoooo

 

[4-4-3]

Dude, you really need to stop trying to sit on the fence. It's very apparent to anyone with a brain that you don't like the MF hire.

You spend 2 paragraphs saying MF is "maybe a little too transparent," "almost naive bordering on innocent," and that you don't see "hard-steel leadership" (as if that's some metric that equates to success?), and that MF "seems too good to be true."

You then try and soften your stance by saying, "What that will translate into as a head football coach at ND I've no idea."

Bullshit. You absolutely have "an idea" of how MF's characteristics will translate as a HC at ND. I'm not really sure why you're trying to hide it, but either way, absolutely no one is buying your attempts to be objective. You're very clearly not, so stop it. It was fine for the first few 1,500 word essays you posted, but now it's just disingenuous.

I don't have any IDEA how he'll ACTUALLY DO. Nor does anyone. And, yes, I always LOOK AT BOTH SIDES and SELDOM make predictions.

But, no, I wouldn't have hired him as I didn't favor the percentages. But randomness doesn't always follow the percentages, and that's why I don't make predictions.

But I'm still ALLOWED to not like the hire and yet not CLAIM TO KNOW how it will turn out.

What you're calling DISINGENUOUS is my not PREDICTING THE GUY'S FAILURE. I'm sorry to FRUSTRATE YOU, but that's for others to speculate over.

 

[francade]

Lol, now taking the head coaching job at ND is classified as just a “risk worth taking”. Not the highest honor a coach in the college world can hope for? Or the greatest opportunity of his lifetime? Merely a risk worth taking. Lol, ok. I, for one, was never a Kelly hater, but to think that it’ll be unrealistic to match what he did is 100% conjecture. Kelly was coach here for 12 years, not just the last 5. He was a good coach & adhered to ND’s rules and won a lot of games & also lost a lot of the biggest games (most actually). And I give him credit for the those wins against good teams that get deemed not so big a game after we beat said team. But on the grandest of stages, we collapsed, sans the clemson game last year. So let’s stop cherry-picking his best & treat his tenure in its entirety. I think freeman is plenty capable of putting up Kelly’s winning percentage and go 0 for titles too. You’ve created a higher bar than the bar really is. I think Freeman flies over it. Pure conjecture I know, but not any different than yours.

 

[savvyandsassier]

Pleas

And I’m an attorney for a multibillion dollar company with 2 additional degrees, so I can spot when someone is attempting to avoid a line of questioning. So I ask you again. WHY DO YOU THINK KELLY DIDNT WIN A NC OR ANY GAME WHEN IT MATTERED MOST?

Really? You definitely don't carry yourself like one on this board. I've been around a couple lawyers on these boards, who I know they were what they said they we're, and they sure made a better impression than you do.

You seem like nothing more than the typical message board trash, if that. It's difficult to imagine that being true.

In any case, I will put you on ignore. And spare us both. Hopefully you'll heed my cry for a return to decency, after this auto da fe is finally completed.... Generally lawyers, any kind of lawyer, are not really the type to glory in these sort of tribalistic, vengeful bonfires. That's for the filthy peasants, not fancy attorneys....

 

[Kontiki09]

I don't have any IDEA how he'll ACTUALLY DO. Nor does anyone. And, yes, I always LOOK AT BOTH SIDES and SELDOM make predictions.

But, no, I wouldn't have hired him as I didn't favor the percentages. But randomness doesn't always follow the percentages, and that's why I don't make predictions.

But I'm still ALLOWED to not like the hire and yet not CLAIM TO KNOW how it will turn out.

What you're calling DISINGENUOUS is my not PREDICTING THE GUY'S FAILURE. I'm sorry to FRUSTRATE YOU, but that's for others to speculate over.

Answer my question. It’s really simple.

why do you think Kelly didn’t win a NC at ND, or any game when it mattered most?

 

[Kontiki09]

Really? You definitely don't carry yourself like one on this board. I've been around a couple lawyers on these boards, who I know they were what they said they we're, and they sure made a better impression than you do.

You seem like nothing more than the typical message board trash, if that. It's difficult to imagine that being true.

In any case, I will put you on ignore. And spare us both. Hopefully you'll heed my cry for a return to decency, after this auto da fe is finally completed.... Generally lawyers, any kind of lawyer, are not really the type to glory in these sort of tribalistic, vengeful bonfires. That's for the filthy peasants, not fancy attorneys....

Lmaoooooooo.

Sassy: “Kontiki, you’re absolute trash.”

Also Sassy: “Guys! How DARE you all hurl vicious attacks at someone else. Is there no decency anymore?”

this is the absolute best

 

[4-4-3]

Freemen

So if you’re in Jack’s shoes would you have waited until January in the hopes you can get Fickell or some other more proven HC? Knowing that means likely losing Freemen, Rees and cratering the 2022 and 2023 classes?

It was an unenviable decision to make. I think he made the right one.

I think he made the right decision for Jack. For ND long-term, I don't know. I would have interviewed other candidates.

But I don't believe ND felt it had that luxury. If players can just walk out whenever, they may now also feel they should get to decide through ACCLIMATION who the next coach is. it was certainly a factor IN THIS CASE.

But, personally, I still think the LONG-GAME as run by the ADULTS in the room is preferable. So, you have a couple of wobbly years, but you've got a good and experienced coach. Isn't that the ULTIMATE MISSION?

ND's betting on getting there via a LONGER SHOT. Who knows how Freeman will tun out? Right now, as a head coach, he's a BLANK SLATE. As was the case with Kelly, we know what FIckell can do.

Others don't think that matters.

 

[savvyandsassier]

Lol, now taking the head coaching job at ND is classified as just a “risk worth taking”. Not the highest honor a coach in the college world can hope for? Or the greatest opportunity of his lifetime? Merely a risk worth taking. Lol, ok. I, for one, was never a Kelly hater, but to think that it’ll be unrealistic to match what he did is 100% conjecture. Kelly was coach here for 12 years, not just the last 5. He was a good coach & adhered to ND’s rules and won a lot of games & also lost a lot of the biggest games (most actually). And I give him credit for the those wins against good teams that get deemed not so big a game after we beat said team. But on the grandest of stages, we collapsed, sans the clemson game last year. So let’s stop cherry-picking his best & treat his tenure in its entirety. I think freeman is plenty capable of putting up Kelly’s winning percentage and go 0 for titles too. You’ve created a higher bar than the bar really is. I think Freeman flies over it. Pure conjecture I know, but not any different than yours.

We're only talking about BK 2.O. Obviously. That's the run the team is currently on, and presumably was set to continue on. The team is 43-4 in the last four regular seasons. That's the number that counts. Unless you want to start going 7-5 and 8-4 again, which apparently your are ready to do if necessary...

God damn, I was sort of exaggerating when saying ND fans don't value winning, and they prefer nurturing their little cultish obsessions, and that will always come first. But this past week has demonstrated that that is a factual statement. It's not hyperbole.

The ND football culture is a twisted place, it really is. People always talk shit about ND fans, and they are not wrong...

 

[4-4-3]

Answer my question. It’s really simple.

why do you think Kelly didn’t win a NC at ND, or any game when it mattered most?

He lost to teams with better players and probably better coaches.

I think it was close to miraculous that ND as a program actually made it as far as THOSE GAMES.

They were never the better program.

 

[4-4-3]

Pleas

And I’m an attorney for a multibillion dollar company with 2 additional degrees, so I can spot when someone is attempting to avoid a line of questioning. So I ask you again. WHY DO YOU THINK KELLY DIDNT WIN A NC OR ANY GAME WHEN IT MATTERED MOST?

Congrats on those accomplishments. That's really FIRST-RATE. I'm not an attorney and only have one advanced degree.

But I'm by no means trying to avoid your cross-examination. counselor. See my response in another post.

 

[francade]

Savvy, that’s my point. Give freeman 11-12 years and I think he can match and eclipse what Kelly did here. You’re cherry-picking his best run as if the other stuff didn’t happen. It did. I appreciate that he took ND out of a malaise, but we didn’t win one title under him for over a decade. That bar can be reached easily I think. Not by just anyone either, but I think freeman has the pieces in place to improve on our position (which is a very good one, thanks, in part, to Kelly). Time will tell.

 

[HooDatGuy]

I think he made the right decision for Jack. For ND long-term, I don't know. I would have interviewed other candidates.

But I don't believe ND felt it had that luxury. If players can just walk out whenever, they may now also feel they should get to decide through ACCLIMATION who the next coach is. it was certainly a factor IN THIS CASE.

But, personally, I still think the LONG-GAME as run by the ADULTS in the room is preferable. So, you have a couple of wobbly years, but you've got a good and experienced coach. Isn't that the ULTIMATE MISSION?

ND's betting on getting there via a LONGER SHOT. Who knows how Freeman will tun out? Right now, as a head coach, he's a BLANK SLATE. As was the case with Kelly, we know what FIckell can do.

Others don't think that matters.

Well unlike when Kelly came in, Notre Dame is ready to win now. If you’re starting from scratch obviously you’re doing yourself a disservice to not interview and vet many coaches.

So the question posed to Jack was “are you willing to cripple the program by way of a couple lackluster classes in the hope that whoever you hire would be able to pull us out of that?”

If the answer to that question is yes and you’re deliberately leaving talented players on the table, you better be sure it works out.


I’m much more comfortable gambling on the idea that keeping the staff in tact and the talent coming in the door will lead to more success than starting over and building from scratch.

 

[Kontiki09]

He lost to teams with better players and probably better coaches.

I think it was close to miraculous that ND as a program actually made it as far as THOSE GAMES.

They were never the better program.

Ok, so let’s continue the logic here. If Kelly lost to better players and better coaches, is it Kelly’s fault or Notre Dame’s fault that he had neither of those things?

 

[Kontiki09]

Congrats on those accomplishments. That's really FIRST-RATE. I'm not an attorney and only have one advanced degree.

But I'm by no means trying to avoid your cross-examination. counselor. See my response in another post.

Hey thanks! Congrats on your international trade and finance accomplishments as well! Really glad I knew your background because it was really important to the discussion. Very considerate of you. Don’t forget us when you’re appointed to General Council at the WTO!

 

[francade]

“Ok, so let’s continue the logic here. If Kelly lost to better players and better coaches, is it Kelly’s fault or Notre Dame’s fault that he had neither of those things?”

The ND players weren’t 20-30 points worse than their opponents in those big games, not even close. And to say that we were “lucky” to get where we did because of Kelly is more bunk. We were just as good or better than every team we played under Kelly minus those big game losses. Kelly didn’t scheme us to wins w/ lesser talent.

 

[savvyandsassier]

Savvy, that’s my point. Give freeman 11-12 years and I think he can match and eclipse what Kelly did here. You’re cherry-picking his best run as if the other stuff didn’t happen. It did. I appreciate that he took ND out of a malaise, but we didn’t win one title under him for over a decade. That bar can be reached easily I think. Not by just anyone either, but I think freeman has the pieces in place to improve on our position (which is a very good one, thanks, in part, to Kelly). Time will tell.

I don't know what to tell you, dude. We've always got on fairly well, and I try to respect that. I like MF, he's obviously a star in the making. But I'm just not worried or thinking about what he's going to do in 12 years, I'm just not.

Can you understand that?

 

[Patrirish]

One last thought... Marcus Freeman HAS to be aware of this insane, ugly, hate-filled reaction all throughout ND's football culture toward the 3-time national COY-winning coach that hired him, and the coach who's blueprint he appears to be planning on closely hewing to....

And as you are speculating, a coach who's level of success MF will be very hard pressed to match... It's out of the frying pan into the fire.

So good luck to you Marcus Freeman, you can see what awaits you if you trip up....

Marcus Freeman couldn’t care less about this board.

Criticism is universal and not confined to ND.

Every coach knows that it comes with the job.

Just like every job, performance dictates the degree of criticism .

 

[francade]

We’re good, savvy. We don’t always see eye to eye but I find you to be a riot. I understand your concern, but come off the ledge. It’s gonna be a good thing. 👍

 

[Kontiki09]

“Ok, so let’s continue the logic here. If Kelly lost to better players and better coaches, is it Kelly’s fault or Notre Dame’s fault that he had neither of those things?”

The ND players weren’t 20-30 points worse than their opponents in those big games, not even close. And to say that we were “lucky” to get where we did because of Kelly is more bunk. We were just as good or better than every team we played under Kelly minus those big game losses. Kelly didn’t scheme us to wins w/ lesser talent.

Unless Ms. Sassy and The Finance Minister himself are prepared admit that ND cannot get the talent that other schools get, this is only the logical conclusion to reach. The secondary conclusion that follows, then, is that BK and his vaunted record is the best ND can ever do (including massive 20+ point blowouts) from now until ND changes their standards or gives the new coach “a free hand” like Lou.

I cannot, and will not, accept that viewpoint. It’s disrespectful to ND, NDs coaches, and most importantly, the student athletes.

that’s why I’m so apoplectic.

 

[Patrirish]

Savvy, that’s my point. Give freeman 11-12 years and I think he can match and eclipse what Kelly did here. You’re cherry-picking his best run as if the other stuff didn’t happen. It did. I appreciate that he took ND out of a malaise, but we didn’t win one title under him for over a decade. That bar can be reached easily I think. Not by just anyone either, but I think freeman has the pieces in place to improve on our position (which is a very good one, thanks, in part, to Kelly). Time will tell.

Francsde, You can’t predict Freeman’s performance in the Fiesta Bowl so how can you pretend to predict his performance over the next 12 years.

Please get a grip on reality !

 

[Kontiki09]

I don't know what to tell you, dude. We've always got on fairly well, and I try to respect that. I like MF, he's obviously a star in the making. But I'm just not worried or thinking about what he's going to do in 12 years, I'm just not.

Can you understand that?

Another really well thought out post. Solid stuff. Your contributions to this board are invaluable.