2020 Recruiting Update

[tbonesays]

this is the only place where half of the community is still convinced that there's not a correlation between recruiting ratings and on the field results. And it is incredibly ironic given just how much Notre Dame's recruiting results correlate with their on the field performance.

with such confidence we can wait for recruiting results to inch up as a new wave of HS students becomes accustomed to seeing ND as a 10 win team. And I largely agree. If Bob Weisingham had stretched into year 7 the recruiting would have dropped off accordingly.

 

[francade]

Fair enough, chase. As I said, if every team had their druthers, they would land every 5 star they can. It’d be a great case study though to try and figure out which % of 5 stars did not play up to their rankings and which 3 stars played above their rankings. The problem is there are only a small number of 5 stars every year opposed to 3 stars so the hit ratios will be skewed.

 

[TDIrish27]

the poster I was referring to was the one you were debating on the issue which is i i o.

There should just be a general consensus on this forum by now on the issue of talent and recruiting rankings. I see this same debate ad nauseam over an issue that was settled in the college football community seemingly eons ago in internet time

My comments weren't directed at you specifically, sorry that I wasn't more clear on that, but more generally to the nd community where this conversation (or something close to it) is happening over and over again.

this is the only place where half of the community is still convinced that there's not a correlation between recruiting ratings and on the field results. And it is incredibly ironic given just how much Notre Dame's recruiting results correlate with their on the field performance.

It's true most of the time-----Florida St has fallen off the map with a roster that included consistent recruiting rankings in the Top 10

Mack Browns classes at Texas were also usually in that group but at the end his teams struggled .

 

[SALittleGiant513]

Fair enough, chase. As I said, if every team had their druthers, they would land every 5 star they can. It’d be a great case study though to try and figure out which % of 5 stars did not play up to their rankings and which 3 stars played above their rankings. The problem is there are only a small number of 5 stars every year opposed to 3 stars so the hit ratios will be skewed.

They usually do reports before every draft. The percentages of hits for 5* is significantly better then 4* and 5* guys.

 

[tbonesays]

It's true most of the time-----Florida St has fallen off the map with a roster that included consistent recruiting rankings in the Top 10

Mack Browns classes at Texas were also usually in that group but at the end his teams struggled .

Miami, FSU, SC have all dominated the draft with mediocre W=L records.

 

[TDIrish27]

Miami, FSU, SC have all dominated the draft with mediocre W=L records.

Prior to last season when was the last mediocre USC W/L record ?

 

[SIhoosier26]

Prior to last season when was the last mediocre USC W/L record ?

Last season, 2015, 2012,

 

[GOUNUII]

Are you joking? OSU / Meyer went 33-5 in his last three years and won the Rose bowl and Cotton bowl.
he finished top three in Fp+ in 2016 and 2017 and finished top five in FP+ last year...and and went 23-3 in the big ten which is as competitive as ever during that time.

Can you tell me who his peers are besides dabo Swinney and Nick saban (2 legends) the last 3 years? Because it ends there.

Meyer's body of work gets him in the Top 3 Club.

But you would need to have watched him and his teams the last 3 years to understand. During that time, Saban and Dabo didn't come close to the humiliations downtrodden Purdue, Maryland, Iowa and MSU hung on Meyer. Nor did they have as many reasons to thank their players for saving them from even more inexcusable failure. Meyer was responsible in Columbus for playing the likes of Nebraska, Northwestern and PSU in nail biting 4th quarter squeakers where bad coaching/preparation got them into the mess and exceptional players bailed out the otherwise lifeless, unimaginative play of the loaded Buckeyes. Plus, the only 2 really good teams they played in that span were Oklahoma and Clemson. The Sooners owned the Bucks from start to finish in Columbus. A legit beat down not even remotely captured by the 31-16 final. And losing to Clemson 31-0? Do you know what an unprepared and lifeless team looks like? One that has no fight in it?

You can look at stats all you want. I know what I saw from the Buckeyes in 2016-18. And the opinions expressed here are not at all uncommon among those who saw Meyer and his teams when his head and heart were fully in the game.

GOUNUII

 

[TDIrish27]

Meyer's body of work gets him in the Top 3 Club.

But you would need to have watched him and his teams the last 3 years to understand. During that time, Saban and Dabo didn't come close to the humiliations downtrodden Purdue, Maryland, Iowa and MSU hung on Meyer. Nor did they have as many reasons to thank their players for saving them from even more inexcusable failure. Meyer was responsible in Columbus for playing the likes of Nebraska, Northwestern and PSU in nail biting 4th quarter squeakers where bad coaching/preparation got them into the mess and exceptional players bailed out the otherwise lifeless, unimaginative play of the loaded Buckeyes. Plus, the only 2 really good teams they played in that span were Oklahoma and Clemson. The Sooners owned the Bucks from start to finish in Columbus. A legit beat down not even remotely captured by the 31-16 final. And losing to Clemson 31-0? Do you know what an unprepared and lifeless team looks like? One that has no fight in it?

You can look at stats all you want. I know what I saw from the Buckeyes in 2016-18. And the opinions expressed here are not at all uncommon among those who saw Meyer and his teams when his head and heart were fully in the game.

GOUNUII

31-0 was followed by 34-0 Bama win vs Sparty if memory serves-----Big 10 hasn't scored in their last 2 Playoff games.

 

[SALittleGiant513]

Miami, FSU, SC have all dominated the draft with mediocre W=L records.

They have had shitty coaches. Also, the last 2-3 they have not dominated the draft.

 

[NDAFArly]

31-0 was followed by 34-0 Bama win vs Sparty if memory serves-----Big 10 hasn't scored in their last 2 Playoff games.

The B1G Hasn’t scored a single point in the CFP since 2014.

They got shutout 31-0 & 34-0 in 2015 & 2016.
They didn’t make the CFP in 2017 & 2018.
ND scored more points (3) in the 2018 CFP than the entire B1G combined has scored since 2014.

 

[NDIRISH53]

The B1G Hasn’t scored a single point in the CFP since 2014.

They got shutout 31-0 & 34-0 in 2015 & 2016.
They didn’t make the CFP in 2017 & 2018.
ND scored more points (3) in the 2018 CFP than the entire B1G combined has scored since 2014.

Which makes it laughable for Ohio state fans to scream “30-3!” “We should have been in over ND!”

Don’t lose by 30 to Purdue and you’re in. Simple as that.

 

[stu4don]

Farley, IIO - just saw that of 8 ND commits for 2020 all but two have DROPPED in 247 rankings...

6 dropped, including Bauman lost a star. Tyree dropped 10! Not sure I get it...

Is this the much talked about ND prejudice or is this about camps (and who plays the recruiting sites game?)

 

[NDAFArly]

Farley, IIO - just saw that of 8 ND commits for 2020 all but two have DROPPED in 247 rankings...

6 dropped, including Bauman lost a star. Tyree dropped 10! Not sure I get it...

Is this the much talked about ND prejudice or is this about camps (and who plays the recruiting sites game?)

I can tell you that a few analyst/recruiting reporters on this site are laughing at a few of the drops.
Mayer was the #1 TE in the country & then named the Offensive MVP of the Opening (over WRs & RBs). But somehow a kid who wasn’t invited to the Opening Finals, hasn’t been to any other camps, & hasn’t played a single down of football since the last rankings updates was moved to the #1 TE over Mayer. LOL
Kid hasn’t played a down of football or attended a camp, but jumped the kid who was the overall offensive MVP of the Opening Finals...
Here is a quote from EJ, who is a former 247 Texas Mod & now works here:
“They have a love fest for Conyers over there and think they discovered him. He's an intriguing athlete and will excel at OU but not the No. 1 TE in the nation.”

So he is straight up saying that 247 (his former employer) pushed a kid to the top that nobody else agrees with because they think they discovered him.

 

[SALittleGiant513]

It's true most of the time-----Florida St has fallen off the map with a roster that included consistent recruiting rankings in the Top 10

Mack Browns classes at Texas were also usually in that group but at the end his teams struggled .

That’s what happens when you have huge holes at key positions in multiple classes (OL for both, UT also struggled with secondary) and can’t get QB right year after year.

 

[d1042]

Farley, IIO - just saw that of 8 ND commits for 2020 all but two have DROPPED in 247 rankings...

6 dropped, including Bauman lost a star. Tyree dropped 10! Not sure I get it...

Is this the much talked about ND prejudice or is this about camps (and who plays the recruiting sites game?)

The initial evaluations keep getting refined. And more and more kids get evaluated. The young kids are growing and maturing while developing their talents. The more you know .... There is no bias.

 

[IrishInOntario]

A couple reactions to the rankings drop.

1. Look how many of the kids that dropped are firmly committed. This is the time of year that subscriptions start getting sold by vaulting up the rankings some uncommitted kids that are still deciding. It makes for drama and drama drives clicks. Those clicks lead to to subscriptions being bought as the season gears up and recruiting comes to a head. This isn't something new and why I always say that macro level recruiting rankings have undeniable merit, but that isn't always the case with micro level recruiting.

2. Secondly, recruits continue to be evaluated throughout the cycle. Kids continue to improve and sometimes a kid that showed poorly early in the recruiting cycle (sometimes through a single evaluation) have the ability to impress by time they've graduated. Some guys genuinely just deserve a bump up the rankings and other guys have to drop in order for that to happen. It's not always a conspiracy.

3. Sometimes a kid isn't just ranked according to skill set, but also where he is going to play. The reason for that is that nothing proves the ranking system to more accurate than the players ranked at the top going on to have an immense amount of college success, before getting drafted to the NFL.

Let's look at the Mayer vs Conyers situation... Who do I like more? It's a complete toss up to me. I wouldn't trade Mayer for anyone in the class as a fit in ND's offense and what they're trying to do. That said, if you asked me who is going to the more productive TE in college over the next 4 years if I could only pick one... I'd bet my life's savings on Conyers. Why? Because he plays for the best offensive mind in the country in Lincoln Riley and he'll play the exact same hybrid position as Grant Calcaterra, in an air raid offense and put up huge numbers like Grant is about to this year as a junior, after catching 26 balls as the 4th or option in the passing game last year. That said, I'm keeping Mayer. I think he's a chance to be elite in all facets of the position.

4. Sometimes they are just wrong in their evaluations. This can never be overlooked. At times they flat out make head scratching moves.

But then again, look at some of the players "the best coaches in the world" have recruited to ND. Complete and utter duds who did not belong playing football at the FBS level... They're among the best at what they do and they still get it wrong all the time... So do NFL GM's, coaches and scouts for that matter. It's not a perfect science. Hell, I called Ian Book at "quality backup" on a playoff contender in reference to his upside. How wrong was I about that?

The reality is, if you have the balls to actually formulate an opinion on a recruits or a set of recruits, you have to deal with the backlash of not only inevitably being wrong at times, but also the backlash of people who think you're wrong and want to tell you about it. Comes with the territory.

So who is worse, 247 for moving Conyers ahead of Mayer based on upside, system fit and the coach je is going to play for, or the people bitching about it before they've played their careers out and 247 has given you the chance to prove that they were right?... Time will tell who recruited the better, more productive tight end. ND loves their guy and do does Oklahoma. Why does it all matter who is ranked #1 or #2 at the position? 4 years from now we'll have our answer.

 

[SIhoosier26]

Almost every program has position groups they struggle to recruit.

Chase, Can you elaborate on this statement? Which position groups do the Alabama/OSU/UGAs of the world have trouble recruiting?

 

[theskibro]

A couple reactions to the rankings drop.

1. Look how many of the kids that dropped are firmly committed. This is the time of year that subscriptions start getting sold by vaulting up the rankings some uncommitted kids that are still deciding. It makes for drama and drama drives clicks. Those clicks lead to to subscriptions being bought as the season gears up and recruiting comes to a head. This isn't something new and why I always say that macro level recruiting rankings have undeniable merit, but that isn't always the case with micro level recruiting.

2. Secondly, recruits continue to be evaluated throughout the cycle. Kids continue to improve and sometimes a kid that showed poorly early in the recruiting cycle (sometimes through a single evaluation) have the ability to impress by time they've graduated. Some guys genuinely just deserve a bump up the rankings and other guys have to drop in order for that to happen. It's not always a conspiracy.

3. Sometimes a kid isn't just ranked according to skill set, but also where he is going to play. The reason for that is that nothing proves the ranking system to more accurate than the players ranked at the top going on to have an immense amount of college success, before getting drafted to the NFL.

Let's look at the Mayer vs Conyers situation... Who do I like more? It's a complete toss up to me. I wouldn't trade Mayer for anyone in the class as a fit in ND's offense and what they're trying to do. That said, if you asked me who is going to the more productive TE in college over the next 4 years if I could only pick one... I'd bet my life's savings on Conyers. Why? Because he plays for the best offensive mind in the country in Lincoln Riley and he'll play the exact same hybrid position as Grant Calcaterra, in an air raid offense and put up huge numbers like Grant is about to this year as a junior, after catching 26 balls as the 4th or option in the passing game last year. That said, I'm keeping Mayer. I think he's a chance to be elite in all facets of the position.

4. Sometimes they are just wrong in their evaluations. This can never be overlooked. At times they flat out make head scratching moves.

But then again, look at some of the players "the best coaches in the world" have recruited to ND. Complete and utter duds who did not belong playing football at the FBS level... They're among the best at what they do and they still get it wrong all the time... So do NFL GM's, coaches and scouts for that matter. It's not a perfect science. Hell, I called Ian Book at "quality backup" on a playoff contender in reference to his upside. How wrong was I about that?

The reality is, if you have the balls to actually formulate an opinion on a recruits or a set of recruits, you have to deal with the backlash of not only inevitably being wrong at times, but also the backlash of people who think you're wrong and want to tell you about it. Comes with the territory.

So who is worse, 247 for moving Conyers ahead of Mayer based on upside, system fit and the coach je is going to play for, or the people bitching about it before they've played their careers out and 247 has given you the chance to prove that they were right?... Time will tell who recruited the better, more productive tight end. ND loves their guy and do does Oklahoma. Why does it all matter who is ranked #1 or #2 at the position? 4 years from now we'll have our answer.

IIO
About Book. Not sure your evaluation was off the mark. Book has no doubt been a great fit for ND and became better than any of us thought

Still, he was bad against Clemson, has not delivered the long ball, and 2019 will be his litmus test as defenses will be looking to jump his short passing routes and play up on him until he can hurt them long

I like Book cause he is the best we have had in many years in seeing the coverage and going to other options. Best since Rees who had no arm

He has challenges this season. I hope he improved and will rise to meet them

 

[Get Nasty]

safety recruiting for the 2020 class isn't looking good. Actually secondary as a whole isn't looking good. Crazy with so much opportunity coming.

 

[TDIrish27]

safety recruiting for the 2020 class isn't looking good. Actually secondary as a whole isn't looking good. Crazy with so much opportunity coming.

I've seen Lewis several times----not sure he ends up at CB but kid is a good player. He could grow into a safety. Probably no kid in NJ blew up like he did this spring.

Have been watching Bauman for 3 years----kid checks every box and one day he's going to be 260-------235/240 and he's a stick. Great---not slightly great kid and a perfect fit for any program utilizing multiple TE's because he can put his hand on the ground and block you along with being a good receiver.

 

[Get Nasty]

I've seen Lewis several times----not sure he ends up at CB but kid is a good player. He could grow into a safety. Probably no kid in NJ blew up like he did this spring.

Have been watching Bauman for 3 years----kid checks every box and one day he's going to be 260-------235/240 and he's a stick. Great---not slightly great kid and a perfect fit for any program utilizing multiple TE's because he can put his hand on the ground and block you along with being a good receiver.

I'm talking secondary. We haven't gotten one corner or safety in this class that was coveted by any other big time programs. I look at that more than star ratings. I think the players we've gotten are solid in the secondary, but far from a sure thing and need some major development.

 

[d1042]

I'm talking secondary. We haven't gotten one corner or safety in this class that was coveted by any other big time programs. I look at that more than star ratings. I think the players we've gotten are solid in the secondary, but far from a sure thing and need some major development.

Hamilton will be at S. for the next 3 seasons.

 

[iwish]

I'm talking secondary. We haven't gotten one corner or safety in this class that was coveted by any other big time programs. I look at that more than star ratings. I think the players we've gotten are solid in the secondary, but far from a sure thing and need some major development.

Cortieson was offered by UM and OSU

 

[stu4don]

Thanks for the reply and update guys. IIO -- as always thanks for your time in laying it out and Farley for sharing your inside info. I do enjoy your posts.

I'm predicting "Little Gronk" will continue to move up! And I like the potential for Bauman -- remember, we are stocked at TE for quite a while, so he'll have time to pack it on and learn the system... Remember, the experts had one of our best all-time TE's in Eifert as a 3* and the 24th best...

Finally, I really feel Kelly and company are getting better at finding "character" players. Real leaders with a genuine love of the game and a willingness to do what it takes for the team -- for example, Tranquil, Gilman, Finke, (although, lets be honest Kelly didn't find Gilman, he found Kelly!) Avery Davis comes to mind too for his willingness to switch positions, Aaron Banks, Book, even someone like Dexter last year who stuck it out at a program that can be tough, he could have packed it in and auditioned for the NFL elsewhere... Can we beat Alabama or Clemson or Georgia with this level of heart (+talent)? So far, no, but I'm an optimist and I believe we've made progress.

 

[TDIrish27]

I'm talking secondary. We haven't gotten one corner or safety in this class that was coveted by any other big time programs. I look at that more than star ratings. I think the players we've gotten are solid in the secondary, but far from a sure thing and need some major development.

Michigan State and Kentucky offered Lewis.

 

[tbonesays]

Prior to last season when was the last mediocre USC W/L record ?

Must have been 6-6, Kelly never beats a good team in the big game.

Meyer's body of work gets him in the Top 3 Club.

But you would need to have watched him and his teams the last 3 years to understand. During that time, Saban and Dabo didn't come close to the humiliations downtrodden Purdue, Maryland, Iowa and MSU hung on Meyer. Nor did they have as many reasons to thank their players for saving them from even more inexcusable failure. Meyer was responsible in Columbus for playing the likes of Nebraska, Northwestern and PSU in nail biting 4th quarter squeakers where bad coaching/preparation got them into the mess and exceptional players bailed out the otherwise lifeless, unimaginative play of the loaded Buckeyes. Plus, the only 2 really good teams they played in that span were Oklahoma and Clemson. The Sooners owned the Bucks from start to finish in Columbus. A legit beat down not even remotely captured by the 31-16 final. And losing to Clemson 31-0? Do you know what an unprepared and lifeless team looks like? One that has no fight in it?

You can look at stats all you want. I know what I saw from the Buckeyes in 2016-18. And the opinions expressed here are not at all uncommon among those who saw Meyer and his teams when his head and heart were fully in the game.

GOUNUII

I don't recall the top 5 being this stable for a period of about 5 seasons before. anOSU, OU and UGA have dropped multiple games to Bama/Clemson, many were decisive. However #1 and 2 side step the risk of upset in a big night game at a rivals campus by only playing 8 conf games instead of 9. There would be quite a few Spoilermakers if Bama was travelling there every other year

 

[NDIRISH53]

Chase, Can you elaborate on this statement? Which position groups do the Alabama/OSU/UGAs of the world have trouble recruiting?

Bama has had some bad kickers... besides that? Nothing

 

[Bumpdaddy]

So who is worse, 247 for moving Conyers ahead of Mayer based on upside, system fit and the coach he is going to play for, or the people bitching about it before they've played their careers out and 247 has given you the chance to prove that they were right?... Time will tell who recruited the better, more productive tight end. ND loves their guy and do does Oklahoma. Why does it all matter who is ranked #1 or #2 at the position? 4 years from now we'll have our answer.

So I want to comment on the statement I have highlighted. If the recruiting sites actually use system fit and the coach a player is going to play for as part of their ranking criteria then everyone who thinks they have a bias against ND or any other school that isn't Bama, OU, Clemson, etc. is right. Clemson and Bama are the best all-around programs. Any player that commits to either would get a boost in their rankings because the systems and coaches they will be playing for are the best. Any skill position player that commits to OU will get a similar boost. What that means is, the reason why ND's recruits go down in ranking will essentially boil down to this basic Q&A:

Q: Why did [insert name] ND recruit go down in ranking?
A: Because he won't be playing for Bama (or Clemson, etc.).​

If this is the case then people like Chase have been completely wrong this whole time. ND will never be able to recruit a top 5 class because their recruits will never receive the same rankings boost that Bama's, Clemson's, OU's, etc.players will receive.

Now, I hope that's not really how it works. I hope that system fit and the coach a player will play for does not get factored in the rankings. Otherwise, I don't see how anyone can view the rankings as anything but extremely biased toward certain schools.

To be clear, I'm not saying that projecting how good a recruit might be in college shouldn't be part of the ranking criteria, just as long as that projection is limited to his potential physical and skill development. If the evaluators think someone is going to be an elite WR in college because he has certain physical and mental traits, fine. But if the evaluators think someone is going to be elite simply because of the offense they will be playing in or the coach they will be playing for then that's a problem.

 

[tbonesays]

So I want to comment on the statement I have highlighted. If the recruiting sites actually use system fit and the coach a player is going to play for as part of their ranking criteria then everyone who thinks they have a bias against ND or any other school that isn't Bama, OU, Clemson, etc. is right. Clemson and Bama are the best all-around programs. Any player that commits to either would get a boost in their rankings because the systems and coaches they will be playing for are the best. Any skill position player that commits to OU will get a similar boost. What that means is, the reason why ND's recruits go down in ranking will essentially boil down to this basic Q&A:

Q: Why did [insert name] ND recruit go down in ranking?
A: Because he won't be playing for Bama (or Clemson, etc.).​

If this is the case then people like Chase have been completely wrong this whole time. ND will never be able to recruit a top 5 class because their recruits will never receive the same rankings boost that Bama's, Clemson's, OU's, etc.players will receive.

Now, I hope that's not really how it works. I hope that system fit and the coach a player will play for does not get factored in the rankings. Otherwise, I don't see how anyone can view the rankings as anything but extremely biased toward certain schools.

To be clear, I'm not saying that projecting how good a recruit might be in college shouldn't be part of the ranking criteria, just as long as that projection is limited to his potential physical and skill development. If the evaluators think someone is going to be an elite WR in college because he has certain physical and mental traits, fine. But if the evaluators think someone is going to be elite simply because of the offense they will be playing in or the coach they will be playing for then that's a problem.

Is that what they mean by "system fit?" Sounds more like a bump for future coaching.

 

[IrishInOntario]

So I want to comment on the statement I have highlighted. If the recruiting sites actually use system fit and the coach a player is going to play for as part of their ranking criteria then everyone who thinks they have a bias against ND or any other school that isn't Bama, OU, Clemson, etc. is right. Clemson and Bama are the best all-around programs. Any player that commits to either would get a boost in their rankings because the systems and coaches they will be playing for are the best. Any skill position player that commits to OU will get a similar boost. What that means is, the reason why ND's recruits go down in ranking will essentially boil down to this basic Q&A:

Q: Why did [insert name] ND recruit go down in ranking?
A: Because he won't be playing for Bama (or Clemson, etc.).​

If this is the case then people like Chase have been completely wrong this whole time. ND will never be able to recruit a top 5 class because their recruits will never receive the same rankings boost that Bama's, Clemson's, OU's, etc.players will receive.

Now, I hope that's not really how it works. I hope that system fit and the coach a player will play for does not get factored in the rankings. Otherwise, I don't see how anyone can view the rankings as anything but extremely biased toward certain schools.

To be clear, I'm not saying that projecting how good a recruit might be in college shouldn't be part of the ranking criteria, just as long as that projection is limited to his potential physical and skill development. If the evaluators think someone is going to be an elite WR in college because he has certain physical and mental traits, fine. But if the evaluators think someone is going to be elite simply because of the offense they will be playing in or the coach they will be playing for then that's a problem.

It's not about going to Alabama or Clemson per se... It's, for example, about a kid going to a school that routinely scores 40+ ppg, puts high end offensive talent into the NFL year-after-year and have a proven track record of developing their guys... The fact that right now that happens to be Alabama and Clemson is only relevant right now. There is nothing that says other programs couldn't do the same, they just have to have elite coaching and development, elite systems on offense and defense and elite recruiting. When you combine those 3 components, you simply enter the "cycle".

If Brian Kelly was putting players into the NFL at the rate Nick Saban is, you better believe his kids would be getting bumped up in the ratings. Why? Because kids that Nick Saban takes are damn good football players and the recruiting services know that if it's between the guy Nick or Dabo take and the guy somebody else takes, and all else appears to be equal, you bet on the proven, consistent winner.

 

[TDIrish27]

I'm talking secondary. We haven't gotten one corner or safety in this class that was coveted by any other big time programs. I look at that more than star ratings. I think the players we've gotten are solid in the secondary, but far from a sure thing and need some major development.

Offord offered by Oklahoma

 

[coolirish9]

any shot guys with 2021 NJ DT Malone who was on campus today. i.ve read where his high school coaches seem to think it's the wolverines, buckeyes and a couple of other teams not named the irish but we did get him to visit today though. also read that his coach has a brother that coaches at Michigan

 

[BGI User 1596]

any shot guys with 2021 NJ DT Malone who was on campus today. i.ve read where his high school coaches seem to think it's the wolverines, buckeyes and a couple of other teams not named the irish but we did get him to visit today though. also read that his coach has a brother that coaches at Michigan

No

 

[IrishInOntario]

any shot guys with 2021 NJ DT Malone who was on campus today. i.ve read where his high school coaches seem to think it's the wolverines, buckeyes and a couple of other teams not named the irish but we did get him to visit today though. also read that his coach has a brother that coaches at Michigan

Nope. Michigan is the overwhelming favourite. If it's not them it will be a football factory.

 

[Bumpdaddy]

It's not about going to Alabama or Clemson per se... It's, for example, about a kid going to a school that routinely scores 40+ ppg, puts high end offensive talent into the NFL year-after-year and have a proven track record of developing their guys... The fact that right now that happens to be Alabama and Clemson is only relevant right now. There is nothing that says other programs couldn't do the same, they just have to have elite coaching and development, elite systems on offense and defense and elite recruiting. When you combine those 3 components, you simply enter the "cycle".

If Brian Kelly was putting players into the NFL at the rate Nick Saban is, you better believe his kids would be getting bumped up in the ratings. Why? Because kids that Nick Saban takes are damn good football players and the recruiting services know that if it's between the guy Nick or Dabo take and the guy somebody else takes, and all else appears to be equal, you bet on the proven, consistent winner.

The highlighted statement states the same thing as before. It's a distinction without a difference. Of course, Bama and Clemson are relevant right now and other programs and coaches could emerge, but the fact remains: if recruiting services are giving a bump to recruits' rankings because of who they commit to then the rankings have a definite bias.

Let me put it another way so that I am clear. And we'll stick with Bama as the main example just so I don't have to keep naming other schools who might also benefit from such a rankings boost.

I think there's no doubt many if not most of the top recruits want to go to Bama regardless. If all of the recruiting sites did what I suggest, and that is, if all of the recruiting sites ever did is rank the players according to their high school film, their measurables, their skillset, and potential physical and skill development down the line and never factor in who they commit to, Bama will likely still wind up with the top class most years. However, if the sites allow evaluators to give recruits a rankings boost or drop depending on who they commit to then it's really hard to take the team recruiting rankings seriously. If the knock against BK is that he can't sign a top 5 recruiting class then the reason might not be that he can't recruit the players necessary to finish in the top 5. It might be because the recruiting services are punishing him for not having the last name Saban. That's ridiculous.

This also hurts the rankings' credibility in another way. It promotes laziness. If you are an evaluator for Rivals, how hard would it be to just look at who Bama is recruiting and rank those guys the highest? Why spend hours looking over film or going to games? And no, I'm not naive. I'm sure there are evaluators that are already doing that, but if you required all the evaluators to never let who a recruit commits to factor into their evaluations and to always show their work (point by point reasons for why they rank each kid) then you will have a lot less lazy ones.

The way you are putting this is a chicken or egg thing and it really matters what comes first. If Saban is out-recruiting BK because he is indeed getting the best players, and I think he is, then his recruiting classes obviously deserve the higher rankings. But if Saban is getting the same type of athletes as BK but, because he is putting kids in the NFL at a very high rate, his kids get a rankings boost then his recruiting classes don't deserve higher rankings. His recruits are no better than ours. They are just in a better program.

Obviously, I don't believe that last part, but if the recruiting services are indeed boosting or dropping recruit rankings depending on who they commit to then the class recruiting rankings have a lot less meaning. We already know who the top programs are. We can write up the class rankings well before anyone ever commits.

 

[TDIrish27]

No

Agreed

The 6'4 is a bit of a stretch IMO------not sure he's 6'3.

Excellent player though-----saw him play baseball this spring-----very good.

Not something you see very often in todays world-------a National Recruit DL playing baseball.

 

[coolirish9]

i'm guessing we can cross 2021 5 star TX RB Camar Wheaton off the list. saw him on the front page yesterday and got to rethinking about him. everything has been silent when it comes to the visit he took to campus recently and so I just figured things went sour for him while in South Bend

 

[SIhoosier26]

i'm guessing we can cross 2021 5 star TX RB Camar Wheaton off the list. saw him on the front page yesterday and got to rethinking about him. everything has been silent when it comes to the visit he took to campus recently and so I just figured things went sour for him while in South Bend

Didn’t matter, he was always going to Texas.

 

[IrishInOntario]

The highlighted statement states the same thing as before. It's a distinction without a difference. Of course, Bama and Clemson are relevant right now and other programs and coaches could emerge, but the fact remains: if recruiting services are giving a bump to recruits' rankings because of who they commit to then the rankings have a definite bias.

Let me put it another way so that I am clear. And we'll stick with Bama as the main example just so I don't have to keep naming other schools who might also benefit from such a rankings boost.

I think there's no doubt many if not most of the top recruits want to go to Bama regardless. If all of the recruiting sites did what I suggest, and that is, if all of the recruiting sites ever did is rank the players according to their high school film, their measurables, their skillset, and potential physical and skill development down the line and never factor in who they commit to, Bama will likely still wind up with the top class most years. However, if the sites allow evaluators to give recruits a rankings boost or drop depending on who they commit to then it's really hard to take the team recruiting rankings seriously. If the knock against BK is that he can't sign a top 5 recruiting class then the reason might not be that he can't recruit the players necessary to finish in the top 5. It might be because the recruiting services are punishing him for not having the last name Saban. That's ridiculous.

This also hurts the rankings' credibility in another way. It promotes laziness. If you are an evaluator for Rivals, how hard would it be to just look at who Bama is recruiting and rank those guys the highest? Why spend hours looking over film or going to games? And no, I'm not naive. I'm sure there are evaluators that are already doing that, but if you required all the evaluators to never let who a recruit commits to factor into their evaluations and to always show their work (point by point reasons for why they rank each kid) then you will have a lot less lazy ones.

The way you are putting this is a chicken or egg thing and it really matters what comes first. If Saban is out-recruiting BK because he is indeed getting the best players, and I think he is, then his recruiting classes obviously deserve the higher rankings. But if Saban is getting the same type of athletes as BK but, because he is putting kids in the NFL at a very high rate, his kids get a rankings boost then his recruiting classes don't deserve higher rankings. His recruits are no better than ours. They are just in a better program.

Obviously, I don't believe that last part, but if the recruiting services are indeed boosting or dropping recruit rankings depending on who they commit to then the class recruiting rankings have a lot less meaning. We already know who the top programs are. We can write up the class rankings well before anyone ever commits.

I think what you're missing is that the "benefit of the doubt" component of a commits ranking is just one small component of the overall ranking system. It's not the primary reason a kid is ranked where he is. It's more likely to be used in a tiebreak type scenario between two recruits than it is the primary reason for a kid being ranked where he is...

Consider these factors....

1. Size and measurables
2. Overall film
3. High school competition level
4. Offer lists
5. In person evaluation
6. Performance at camps
7. Overall production
8. High school coaching level (development)
9. System fit
10. Program a player is committed to

If I weighed all of those above factors when ranking a player, any one factor would hardly be enough to so badly skew the rankings as to make them completely worthless.

Brian Kelly can build a top 3 or 5 class based on the other 9 factors, even if #10 isn't likely to win him many points. Keep in mind that the VAST majority of kids remain in the range they were originally ranked, BEFORE they were committed to a school. Are Nick Saban guys probably going to get the benefit if the doubt when it comes to moving a guy up or down a couple spots? Sure. But it's one aspect of the process.