Really, why are Notre Dame's admission standards so high? The London Times 2017 World University rankings have just been released. Oxford is #1 on the list. Stanford #3. Notre Dame is 143. That's right, 143. Is ND really that great of a university to justify a real difficult admission profile. Michigan, Ohio State, Michigan St. and many other Notre Dame opponents are ranked a lot higher. The Times ranking system is based on research, publications, and respect of peers. Hmm. Is it really that difficult to get into ND? If it is? Why?
Why??
- Thread starter mmboys07
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Sorry but this study is slanted towards larger universities, with a large student and grad body. You will be more prolific in research and publications with a larger class. Without looking up the actual class, I'm guessing ND is around 2500-3000 total vs stanford, michichicken, suckeyes, spartans in the 50,000 to 60,000. For the "respect of peers" a meatchicken will likely show more respect for it's peers, or the Weak10 will show more respect for it's conference over research of other's university grads. Nepotism is strong in the academic ranks as much as it is in the job market.
Hmm. ND has about the same number of undergraduate Students as Stanford. And, the bias argument isn't very compelling. This is the London Times world ranking; not New York Times or Times magazine. So, the respect of peers is based on World perceptions on the "Weak 10" and so on.
Stanford has a Medical School; ND does not so rankings will reflect this too especially if extramural research dollars are considered.
Everyone goes on and on about the difficulty ND has recruiting because of their admission standards. Then, the comparisons are made with Stanford. Well, Stanford'd difficult admission standards seem to be justified; ND's not so much. ND may not give a crap about what their academic peers think of them, but that misses the point. What is ND getting for its "high admissions" standards? Maybe not that much. I mean, how much difference would it make if it were easier to get in?? In fact, there are many institutions on that list, much higher than ND, with lower admissions standards.
I am not an alum and not a parent of an alum either BUT I am that with IVY experience. There--IMO--the admission standards are very high but once in if you do any studying at all you can get an "A" on most classes. Also they have many "easier" majors which helps this. I have posted this before----WHY does ND not have enough "easy" majors to keep top students (& athletes) eligible???
Not that I put much stock in these sorts of rankings, but the recent US News and World report has ND ranked around 15. So it all depends on which ranking you want to use to make your claim.
The "Old Admission Standards" excuse has been a playing card for the Kool-Aid Gang for quite a while to defend Kelly. Stanford proved that a good coach makes a difference. Stanford consistently has great seasons with much lower ranked recruited players than ND. Can you imagine what Shaw would accomplish with ND recruits?
Average SAT is 2130 and GPA is 4.02. Statistics can be misleading when you look at acceptance rates due to the size of school, Number of applicants, degree's offered and the cost of the school. A better statistic is the type of student that applies that does not get into the school. Its also around the degree's offered. Not a lot of football theory degree's there or Phys Ed. If you are not a straight A student and tops in your class you are not getting into that school. They compete with the Ivy league and high academic non-Ivy (Stanford, MIT, NW, etc..).
Only two players are documented as not meeting admissions requirements and were admitted. Tony Rice and Chris Zorich. They seemed to be pretty good players and to their credit they did well in school. Maybe ND could start an outreach program to allow a slightly less than perfect score for a small percentage of athletes who have potential but maybe did not get an opportunity to go to a top prep school.
http://www.prepscholar.com/sat/s/colleges/Notre-Dame-SAT-scores-GPA
The reality is the admissions department and athletic department work together to identify great athletes that can stay in school, get a degree with the assistance needed due to the grueling schedule for all student athletes. Its probably less about if we take some border students and more about are they willing to put the work in to make the grade with athletics. If they are, they will do fine. Some players could care less about the degree. If they are not interested in attempting to do well in both, they just will not get an offer. Its that simple.
Only two players are documented as not meeting admissions requirements and were admitted. Tony Rice and Chris Zorich. They seemed to be pretty good players and to their credit they did well in school. Maybe ND could start an outreach program to allow a slightly less than perfect score for a small percentage of athletes who have potential but maybe did not get an opportunity to go to a top prep school.
http://www.prepscholar.com/sat/s/colleges/Notre-Dame-SAT-scores-GPA
The reality is the admissions department and athletic department work together to identify great athletes that can stay in school, get a degree with the assistance needed due to the grueling schedule for all student athletes. Its probably less about if we take some border students and more about are they willing to put the work in to make the grade with athletics. If they are, they will do fine. Some players could care less about the degree. If they are not interested in attempting to do well in both, they just will not get an offer. Its that simple.
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If great athletes who are let in because of lower admissions standards get high after practice and then are subjected to poor coaching then what difference does it make? You may as well keep your high standards.
There are two things that yearly hold ND back in various ranking models, which interestingly are difficult to quantify. 1 is a hospital and medical school that is associated with it. Although our pre med program is outstanding, we lack the hospital. The 2nd is we are a Catholic University and in the academic community that is not well received. They view Catholicism as hindering exploration of intellectual curiosity. It is what it is. If a wealthy alumnus would like to be eternally memorialized, buy St. Joe's or start a program of medical research with them as part of the hospital. We get a hospital, rankings would change. The Catholicism part - we have to live with.
This was an area of concern when I was on campus, as the cyclical "join the Big Ten" chatter was going. My understanding was that ND's lack of certain research and publication programs, in tandem with Medical facilities has a lot to do with how our school is characterized in rankings. There were apparently some significant academic modifications necessary to join the BT to conform with their research and other standards. But this is based on nothing more than a conversation in passing with several faculty, so it's not gospel.
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Did not attend ND, just a life long fan. It is widely understood that ND is an elite University, but rankings that emphasize research and post graduate medical schools, etc... will always downgrade ND. Who cares? As for admission requirements, I don't see any reason to alter these. ND is an elite educational institution, and their admission requirements should reflect this. Athletes are already not held to the same standard as all others seeking admission, as the vast majority are closer to meeting the stated MINIMUM requirements, as oppose to the competitive requirements of all other applicants.
Java has posted elsewhere on this board, suggestions for making the educational challenge at ND more manageable for athletes, and thought he was spot on. I would rather see ND address policy changes like partial class load during the season and beefing up academic support, etc... Than to change the admission standards.
Java has posted elsewhere on this board, suggestions for making the educational challenge at ND more manageable for athletes, and thought he was spot on. I would rather see ND address policy changes like partial class load during the season and beefing up academic support, etc... Than to change the admission standards.
I just never bought into the arguement that Admission Standards are too high at Notre Dame.
Yes , Notre Dame is an Excellent University, but so are many other universities that Notre Dame competes against.
Notre Dame students, Alum, and fans always come up with that excuse ?
Alabama, Fla, Ohio State, Michigan, Boston College, Duke, Ga Tech, USC, etc. have lower admission standards than Notre Dame, and , therefore, have a big advantage in recruiting over ND ?
I am willing to bet that the Alum at those schools may have a different view than those at ND do on the matter of admissions ?
As far a football goes Ala. was a good to decent football but no a top footbll team for a number of years.
Then along came Saban.
Fla. very simular to Ala, Urban came along and Fla became number 1 , Urban left and Fla fell again.
the Same is true of JH at Standford and now at Michigan.
It all comes down to coaching in my view ?
Yes , Notre Dame is an Excellent University, but so are many other universities that Notre Dame competes against.
Notre Dame students, Alum, and fans always come up with that excuse ?
Alabama, Fla, Ohio State, Michigan, Boston College, Duke, Ga Tech, USC, etc. have lower admission standards than Notre Dame, and , therefore, have a big advantage in recruiting over ND ?
I am willing to bet that the Alum at those schools may have a different view than those at ND do on the matter of admissions ?
As far a football goes Ala. was a good to decent football but no a top footbll team for a number of years.
Then along came Saban.
Fla. very simular to Ala, Urban came along and Fla became number 1 , Urban left and Fla fell again.
the Same is true of JH at Standford and now at Michigan.
It all comes down to coaching in my view ?
Rankings are based on criteria. Most elevate larger grad programs and research. US News is not perfect but it is used most because it more closely uses the impact on students and than research etc. Just look at some of the schools ranked above ND on the London list and ask if it makes sense. Also it isn't admissions standard that effect ND but athlete admission standards. All schools compromise for athletes but ND and Standford do it less. Standford is nearer a fertile recruiting ground and has had exceptional coaches lately. Before those coaches they were an afterthought.
Are you saying there is NO allowance for athletes in admission criteria. I do not believe that is true based on some of the athletes that ere recruited by both SC and ND.
