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VanGorder

ZORO50

ND Expert
Dec 28, 2008
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I listen every week to both radio podcasts:

Power Hour w/ Mike Frank and Bill Regan & Irish Illustrated w/ Pete Sampson and Tim Priester

The same things come up every week
1) How can't this team get lined up? (Jaylon Smith was yelling at Coney in this Stanford game at the goaline) .
2) Why is the defense so complicated that smart guys like Farley, Redfield have communication breakdowns and let receivers run free?
I'd like to say that Farley played well this year & Redfield showed much improved toughness against the run.
He need to improve his angles, depth and communication. I don't think it's a stretch to say Farley could play special teams in the NFL- He's awesome on punt coverage and physically is in great shape.
3) Why were we fooled so much on trick plays--- week after week?
4) Why do we go into prevent against Stanford and let them complete a 27 yard pass down the middle?
5) If VanGorder isn't by accounts a great recruiter than why keep him?
Bill Regan was a coach and he can't even decipher the garbage VanGorder is running.

Keep Keith "Big Daddy" Gilmore, Mike Elston, Todd Lyght & Bob Elliott and send VanGorder home.

2016---- This team is super loaded---
Line: Tillery, Jones, Cage, Rochell
Linebackers--- Martini---(in the middle calling the defense), Morgan, Coney/ Onawalu,
Secondary--- Crawford, Coleman, Watkins, Redfield, Justin Brent, Williams

Get VanGorder out- You can tell from the Showtime show-- he coaching the secondary--- not Todd Lyght.
Get him outta there and let Todd Lyght coach these kids up with a real defense that the players can understand.

It's hilarious that the players are super smart and can't get VanGorder's crap down after 2+years.

It's simple---- 2016 the team is even more loaded than today- which could mean- playoffs & championship
- I like the 4-3---- we will improve our corners and secondary play but VanGorder should go to make it happen.
 
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it is possible that kids in a system for as short a period as college players are just do not have the time to develop his dfense before they depart. BVG may be stuck in NFL mode.
 
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It's becoming a consensus , even Eric Hanson of the South Bend Tribune who is EXTERMLY diplomatic so as not to step on and ND toes and lose his favorite media son has said VanGoiter should go.
 
I listen to Hansen virtually every night and I never heard him say that BVG should go, though he has some huge questions about the defense and the missed assignments. He has been talking this talk most of the season. As far back as the last two minutes of Georgia Tech. Tonight he said that BK trusts BVG going back to the old days though there might be some discussion about revamping the scheme.
 
I listen to Hansen virtually every night and I never heard him say that BVG should go, though he has some huge questions about the defense and the missed assignments. He has been talking this talk most of the season. As far back as the last two minutes of Georgia Tech. Tonight he said that BK trusts BVG going back to the old days though there might be some discussion about revamping the scheme.
A couple of times in his Wednesday chats and in an article in ND Insider he referenced the scheme and if it doesn't change that ND may look for a change. He did not come right out and say he should be fired, but certainly alluded that changes need to be made even at the coordinator level.
 
While our defense has occurred injuries and maybe missed on a few elite recruits.
VanGorder's two years have been Gary Darnell bad.
I got to the point I couldn't look at Gary Darnell and I'm done with VanGorder.

Stick with the 4-3. Keep Todd Lyght recruiting new corners.
Move Justin Brent to safety.
Find a d- coordinator that the team can understand.
Are we going to have Nyles Morgan and Tevan Coney running around in a Chinese fire drill next year or have these young beasts playing elite football?
The choice is simple.
VanGorder- gone fishing.
 
While our defense has occurred injuries and maybe missed on a few elite recruits.
VanGorder's two years have been Gary Darnell bad.
I got to the point I couldn't look at Gary Darnell and I'm done with VanGorder.

Stick with the 4-3. Keep Todd Lyght recruiting new corners.
Move Justin Brent to safety.
Find a d- coordinator that the team can understand.
Are we going to have Nyles Morgan and Tevan Coney running around in a Chinese fire drill next year or have these young beasts playing elite football?
The choice is simple.
VanGorder- gone fishing.

Total Defense 39th
Scoring Defense 36th
Passing Defense 28th
Rushing Defense 65th

Not all that bad IMO besides the Rushing Defense (which is surprising considering the front 7 is good)

If the Red Zone offense wasn't so bad this might almost be a mute point
 
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I listen every week to both radio podcasts:

Power Hour w/ Mike Frank and Bill Regan & Irish Illustrated w/ Pete Sampson and Tim Priester

The same things come up every week
1) How can't this team get lined up? (Jaylon Smith was yelling at Coney in this Stanford game at the goaline) .
2) Why is the defense so complicated that smart guys like Farley, Redfield have communication breakdowns and let receivers run free?
I'd like to say that Farley played well this year & Redfield showed much improved toughness against the run.
He need to improve his angles, depth and communication. I don't think it's a stretch to say Farley could play special teams in the NFL- He's awesome on punt coverage and physically is in great shape.
3) Why were we fooled so much on trick plays--- week after week?
4) Why do we go into prevent against Stanford and let them complete a 27 yard pass down the middle?
5) If VanGorder isn't by accounts a great recruiter than why keep him?
Bill Regan was a coach and he can't even decipher the garbage VanGorder is running.

Keep Keith "Big Daddy" Gilmore, Mike Elston, Todd Lyght & Bob Elliott and send VanGorder home.

2016---- This team is super loaded---
Line: Tillery, Jones, Cage, Rochell
Linebackers--- Martini---(in the middle calling the defense), Morgan, Coney/ Onawalu,
Secondary--- Crawford, Coleman, Watkins, Redfield, Justin Brent, Williams

Get VanGorder out- You can tell from the Showtime show-- he coaching the secondary--- not Todd Lyght.
Get him outta there and let Todd Lyght coach these kids up with a real defense that the players can understand.

It's hilarious that the players are super smart and can't get VanGorder's crap down after 2+years.

It's simple---- 2016 the team is even more loaded than today- which could mean- playoffs & championship
- I like the 4-3---- we will improve our corners and secondary play but VanGorder should go to make it happen.
You always leave out Drew Tranquill,do you have some information we don't have?
 
Pete Sampson wrote how Van Gorder kept running zone blitzes yet Stanford had it figured out early on. Why repeatedly drop Okwara into pass coverage when he had become a pass rushing force?
 
Total Defense 39th
Scoring Defense 36th
Passing Defense 28th
Rushing Defense 65th

Not all that bad IMO besides the Rushing Defense (which is surprising considering the front 7 is good)

If the Red Zone offense wasn't so bad this might almost be a mute point

DIP
those are not horrible stats, but defensively they will be dependant on a superior offense to carry the team.
those defensive stats will not otherwise be playoff numbers.
and
the real problem is that the defense was problematic at 'crunch time'.

I am not positioned in the fire BVG camp, but the entire defensive staff has to figure out why in heck WR's run free in the secondary, especially in those critical minutes.

30 secs. from a great season!
 
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DIP
those are not horrible stats, but defensively they will be dependant on a superior offense to carry the team.
those defensive stats will not otherwise be playoff numbers.
and
the real problem is that the defense was problematic at 'crunch time'.

I am not positioned in the fire BVG camp, but the entire defensive staff has to figure out why in heck WR's run free in the secondary, especially in those critical minutes.

30 secs. from a great season!


Agree

My point wasn't that they were great, but not as terrible as many cone across.

Again if the red zone offense was better this would not be as bad as it seems
 
well re the offense; yea, that's another area of problems; but it the RZ offense was better the defensive problems would still exist but be less impactful.

the defensive staff has an entire off season to revamp the defensive schematics in an effort to improve the performance.
 
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But we have some guys on here that pretend to be Sandusky type coaches saying this is not his fault and nobody else knows a thing about football. LOL's.
 
^ yea, that ilk has all the answers. They use words to try to confound posters into believing that their eyes decieve them and the scoreboard lies; as if the majority of posters were so 'simple'. When that fails they of course try their usual 'labeling' or name calling tactic.
 
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^ yea, that ilk has all the answers. They use words to try to comfound posters into believing that their eyes decieve them and the scoreboard lies; as if the majority of pisters were so 'simple'. When that fails they of course try their usual 'labeling' or name calling tactic.
Yeah but the smart money knows - some people are just born to consume Cool Aid.
 
Rumors are floating around that Richt may be looking at BVG as his new DC at Miami. Take it for what it's worth.
 
Yea when I listened to PH I was completely shocked that that a guy like Bill Reagan can't understand what the coverage is supposed to be. If he can't figure it out there is little chance all of the players on defense are going to know whats going on.

In the end it's Kelly's decision and hopefully he has a plan either way.
 
It surprised me how lax this defense would be at times. Other times it was obvious they were just flat out of position (e.g. Boyd streaking past Redfield while Max is moving forward to defend run). I am not a fan of dropping linemen into coverage and blitzing a LB that always seems a step late. I hate to say it but, BVG's schemes seemed to neutralize the talent advantage ND has on most teams.
 
there is the matter that the Srs. on the team could just meet with BVG&BK to discuss any implementation problems .
Are they being up front with the coach?
 
Lol. These posts kill me. Hey the secondary is out of position and misses tackles... What do we do? Fire the DC.

I mean hey lets skip over the obvious:
1. Coach the players up
2. Bring in new players that fit the 2 year old scheme
3. Recognize the depth issues in the secondary
4. Consider bringing in a more experienced secondary coach
5. Lets also remember that because of the explosiveness on offense this year the Defense is on the field a lot and there was very little depth in the secondary and the depth that is there is a significant drop off in ability. This team is built to score and hold the opposing teams to less then 30 points.

Lets just throw away the defensive recruiting momentum and fire the DC after a year we were literally two plays from being undefeated. LOL.

Seriously guys. like BVG or not its in Notre Dames best interest to keep the defensive staff continuity and to coach up players in the system and bring in new players that can learn the system instead of being forced to play right away.

How good did the revolving door of DC's work for Charlie again?

Consistency is key to recruiting, coaching, and improved play. Recruits are listening to BVG and Coach Gilmore. Lets not rock the boat because of missed tackles and being out of position.
 
lol: such posts give me a chuckle.
Change is bad! Ignore the problem, do nothing, everyone to their 'happy place'!

For a season and a half fans have seen a defense that is very inconsistant, but the solution is do nothing?

Things we do know or recognize is BVG is a very charasmatic high energy guy and the players seem to like him.
But performance is the measuring tool. The DB's play often resemble housewives at a K a blue light special, the is a remarkable lack of turnovers, the defense a often most vulnerable in 'crunch time'.

BK has years of experience toward the defensive side of the ball; BVG has coached at various levels; between the 2 and the rest of the staff, if the do not take the 'what me worry' approach they have the experience and brain power to figure out how to turn things around on the defensive side of the ball.
 
I still think Kelly would be much better off backing off from the offensive side of the ball and be more a CEO over both offense and defense. Both DC have had complete freedom on that side of the ball.

Diaco's defense were great but his stubbornness to recruit only players of a certain body type left ND short at a lot of positions. BVG will run his scheme if it works on the college level or not.

If BK wasn't involved in the day-to-day of the offense he could evaluate both sides of the ball from a higher level then offer "suggestions" on what changes need to happen. Plus it would give him more time to recruit and he is excellent at that.
 
Mirer03 - Back in 1990 Holtz brought in Gary Darnell from the SEC. Darnell's NFL style defense never worked in South Bend and Holtz replaced him after the final regular season game of his second season (a game where ND couldn't get off the field against Hawaii). ND then upset Florida in the Sugar Bowl and had very stingy defenses in '92 &'93 under Rick Minter.
 
I think most agree that the secondary is the weakest area in the defense yet I haven't seen any criticism of Lyght. Why?
There has been some on the board. He is a first-year coach and learning on the fly. He and Bob Elliot should get well acquainted.
 
Shooter - There are exceptions to the rule and you point out a great one, however at the time ND was in a much different position then they are now. ND was a juggernaut recruiter and was coming of years of being in the top 5 and having top defensive players under Holtz. When BVG took over the cupboard was pretty much bare in the secondary and along the Dline and depth was a major issue. Joe Schmidt ended up being very good, but he was a walk on who was on the 2 deep.

I am not saying BVG is the best DC ever, but I am saying that he is in year 2 of a MAJOR overhaul in recruiting strategy, Coaching staff, Scheme (4-3 attacking vs 3-4 bend don't break). So far if you look at Dline coaching, recruiting, and play it is much better then when he arrived. Linebackers recruiting, coaching, and play is also on the upswing the last two years.

The Secondary has a new Secondary coach (year 1!), recruiting has been down but is apparently heating up right now, and the on field product is still not acceptable. Also keep in mind depth was hurt this year by injuries. If I am a CEO I don't blow up the Defense to fix secondary issues. I determine is it a matter of players, scheme, or coaching and I address the issues locally. Kelly has been a master of this and I expect him to take the same approach with BVG. Remember its year 2, blowing it up now, in my opinion is a step back to 2 years ago.
 
lol: such posts give me a chuckle.
Change is bad! Ignore the problem, do nothing, everyone to their 'happy place'!

For a season and a half fans have seen a defense that is very inconsistant, but the solution is do nothing?

Things we do know or recognize is BVG is a very charasmatic high energy guy and the players seem to like him.
But performance is the measuring tool. The DB's play often resemble housewives at a K a blue light special, the is a remarkable lack of turnovers, the defense a often most vulnerable in 'crunch time'.

BK has years of experience toward the defensive side of the ball; BVG has coached at various levels; between the 2 and the rest of the staff, if the do not take the 'what me worry' approach they have the experience and brain power to figure out how to turn things around on the defensive side of the ball.


Pers - It is clear to everyone on the board that you are not a fan of the current regime. Got it.

I'm not saying do nothing. I am saying address the issues locally while you are saying fire the staff! Change the Scheme!

We were two plays from being undefeated. It makes a lot more sense to stay the course and try to be five plays better next year, then to start a new rebuild on the defense 2 years into our last rebuild.
 
Pers - It is clear to everyone on the board that you are not a fan of the current regime. Got it.

I'm not saying do nothing. I am saying address the issues locally while you are saying fire the staff! Change the Scheme!

We were two plays from being undefeated. It makes a lot more sense to stay the course and try to be five plays better next year, then to start a new rebuild on the defense 2 years into our last rebuild.
We were also 2 plays away from being 8-4. The bottom line is we were not 12-0 we were 10-2 and we should be proud of that considering the injuries. That doesn't mean there were not glaring problems

This defense has been terrible at tackling for 2 years now. What would lead anyone to believe it's going to be significantly better?

DB's and LB's are continually confused and out of position for 2 years. I saw nothing in the Stanford game to suggest there is a greater understanding of this defense now than there was August 2014.

It's Kelly decision but after 2 years we should see some improvement
 
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Pers - It is clear to everyone on the board that you are not a fan of the current regime. Got it.

I'm not saying do nothing. I am saying address the issues locally while you are saying fire the staff! Change the Scheme!

We were two plays from being undefeated. It makes a lot more sense to stay the course and try to be five plays better next year, then to start a new rebuild on the defense 2 years into our last rebuild.

so, disagree, equals 'fire the staff'; or are you saying that tobsway your audiance? where is the quote where I said fire anyone? ?
 
so, disagree, equals 'fire the staff'; or are you saying that tobsway your audiance? where is the quote where I said fire anyone? ?
Haven't you learned that; If you don't think the staff is perfect = you hate them all and want them fired.
 
Haven't you learned that; If you don't think the staff is perfect = you hate them all and want them fired.

Precisely why the decisions as to who is hired and fired at ND, is left up to trained professional adults,and not a handful of irrational, unqualified, and in some cases disturbed message board posters.
 
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^ don't be so hard on yourself. Self deprecation is never attractive.


Java: Davie, Willingham, Weis, Oleary, were all hired by the fans!
 
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BVG is the weak link ... We should not keep him out of fear, our defense was terribly inconsistent despite great moments from great kids - they deserve better

UVa should never have led in late 4th quarter
Ga Tech ending was atrocious
UMass 1st half was a disaster
USC we blew a 21 pt lead
Temple scored 10 puts in 4th qtr to take late lead
Wake moved up and down the field
BC scored 2 4th qtr TDs then week later passed for 9 yds
Stanford easily drove the field in 20 secs

One drive we look stout next drive we look confused - tells me there is talent but not scheme

Offense bailed us out too often.

It won't just get better - time for a change
 
BVG is the weak link ... We should not keep him out of fear, our defense was terribly inconsistent despite great moments from great kids - they deserve better

UVa should never have led in late 4th quarter
Ga Tech ending was atrocious
UMass 1st half was a disaster
USC we blew a 21 pt lead
Temple scored 10 puts in 4th qtr to take late lead
Wake moved up and down the field
BC scored 2 4th qtr TDs then week later passed for 9 yds
Stanford easily drove the field in 20 secs

One drive we look stout next drive we look confused - tells me there is talent but not scheme

Offense bailed us out too often.

It won't just get better - time for a change
I see what you are saying and saw the same as you point out. However, I do not see it as simple as you. I see it as more of a combination of things that need to change. First of all, ND (BK) needs to go for the jugular and put teams away. That mentality is contagious and can do a lot to keep momentum on ND's side. Next, BVG needs to be aggressive without all of the cutesy 'drop linemen into coverage' crap - just pin your ears back and take the life out of other teams. Third, safeties need to wake the eff up and notice when a team is passing the ball and quit staring into the backfield while receivers are running 10 yards past them.
 
I think all this irregular sleeping is catching up with me. I just keep putting one foot in front of the other. It's hard to keep a baby boomer done. Thanks! Well back to bed gang.
The time change in the fall always does me in and puts me into irregular sleeping patterns as well. Take care my friend and maybe we can exchange thoughts at 3 o'clock in the morning sometime :)
 
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