Time to move Chase to safety?

[stu4don]

I know this has been talked about and I hate to jump the gun after only five days, but with the play of the transfer WRs and the promising Freshmen at WR (Young and Armstrong) -- isn't safety more of a position of need.

Watching the reports from Sat. we seem solid at cornerback (best group in a long time.) But Jack Freeman and the others seem to say safety is still the big weakness.

Not a coach, just a dumb fan, but a question to the coaches out there:

Has the shipped sailed on Chase Claypool to safety? Is it just too late to slot him in now? He's a huge hitter who has decent speed. Thoughts?

 

[francade]

I like the idea.

 

[57Patrick]

stu4don, "Not a coach, just a dumb fan" - dumb fans many times make as much or more sense on this site as the self proclaimed coaches/experts IMHO.

 

[Pennick44]

The kid likes to hit which is evident on special teams but not sure if he has the lateral speed to play DB.

 

[IrishInOntario]

Love would be the move. If Claypool played anywhere on defense is would be Rover. He's already outgrown the safety position. Damn near 230lbs at almost 6'5.

 

[francade]

6-5 230 would be a huge college safety, but if he lacks lateral movement, it's a moot point, he'd have trouble covering from the safety or rover position if he can't move laterally.

 

[francade]

I didn't realize he was that big. Can he play DT ?

 

[IrishInOntario]

I didn't realize he was that big. Can he play DT ?

He might have too!

Chase has one of those elite athlete bodies that could fit into a number of spots on a college football team.

 

[Ara64]

He could play a rush DE. I wouldn't let him waste away in the weeds.

 

[IrishInOntario]

He could play a rush DE. I wouldn't let him waste away in the weeds.

That would take an entire off season of dedication in the weight room, heading into his junior year, where he would just be learning a position. Even if Chase bulked up into the low 240lb range by this time next year, he would basically be a clone of Julian Okwara in terms of size (6'4, 240lbs). We're hearing about Okwara still being a year away from being big and strong enough to play the position on even a semi-regular basis. In this system, you're drop end is still going to be at least 250lbs and your SDE is going to be more in the 270+ range. Kelly has also statedd that Jamkr Jones will likely make the move to Drop in thenoff season because the stafg is going to have a hard time keeping him from outgrowing the Mike position. He could be 255lbs almost overnight. What I think a lot of people don't understand right now is that Notre Dame is not short on defensive ends. They're short on proven production and developed defensive ends. Moving Claypool to that position simply adds another body to the mix who would be under developed and unproven, like the rest if them.

WDE
Andrew Trumbetti (Senior)
Daelin Hayes (SOPH)
Julian Okwara (SOPH)
Jamir Jones (SOPH)
Kofi Wardlow (FR)
To be Determined (2018)

SDE
Jay Hayes (SR)- 5th year eligible
Khalid Kareem (SOPH)
Ade Ogundeji (SOPH)
Jonathan MacCollister (FR)
Justin Ademilola (2018)

Those are perfect numbers at both defensive end positions and ND is likely going to push for an extra defensive end in this class. Thomas Booker, for example, gives you that Jay Hayes body that could play SDE or 3 tech, depending on need.

I think Claypool is better left on offense, where he can continue to develop. The defensive end position is plenty deep with bodies right now. It needs those guys to develop or ready-to-play talent (ala Robert Beal from last cycle).

 

[francade]

Just for the record, I was joking about DT, obviously. I didn't realize he was 230 lbs. if that's the case, IiO is right, that's too big for safety, rover or olb is more like it.

 

[Telx1]

The main reason Chase gets mentioned here as a potential defensive player is his great ST play. The kid just flies down and makes plays, and seems to have that instinct for hitting that we all want to see from our defense. We are loaded at receiver, and it will be interesting to see if Chase earns enough touches to make an impact. I think and hope he does, as that would set the stage for a breakout season next year. I still think he will dominate his senior year.

 

[zonairish]

The main reason Chase gets mentioned here as a potential defensive player is his great ST play. The kid just flies down and makes plays, and seems to have that instinct for hitting that we all want to see from our defense. We are loaded at receiver, and it will be interesting to see if Chase earns enough touches to make an impact. I think and hope he does, as that would set the stage for a breakout season next year. I still think he will dominate his senior year.

Telx1, spot on

 

[REMND]

He might have too!

Chase has one of those elite athlete bodies that could fit into a number of spots on a college football team.

I have read that a number of times. I think he would be best in an H Back like role lining up as a slot or a wing back. An H Back used aggressively can be at the point of attack or the receiving target on over 50% of the plays. I even read an account from some beat writer for Zona a few years go that said the H Back was in on 80% of the plays.

We just need to verify this year that he has the hands to be a receiver, as an X or H Back. I would rather not use him in a Duval or Dan Smith role as mostly just a blocker. I hope he has the hands.

 

[IrishInOntario]

The main reason Chase gets mentioned here as a potential defensive player is his great ST play. The kid just flies down and makes plays, and seems to have that instinct for hitting that we all want to see from our defense. We are loaded at receiver, and it will be interesting to see if Chase earns enough touches to make an impact. I think and hope he does, as that would set the stage for a breakout season next year. I still think he will dominate his senior year.

No argument here but it comes down to the question of where would greatly play on defense that he would be more impactful than the guy already at the position?

Rover... Over Tranquill and Bilal (both have two years left)? Owusu-Koramoah and Shayne Simon are right behind them. Genmark-Heath could end up there as well if he keeps growing.

WDE... Over Daelin Hayes, Okwara Jamir Jones, Kofi Wardlow who all have 3 or 4 years left?

Buck... Over Martini, Coney and an incoming Jack Lamb and Ovie Oghoufo? That doesn't make any sense.

I think us ND fast have been so jaded by how poorly the defense played under BVG that we often forget that the bulk of the defensive talent is compromised of quickly improving under classmen, supported by upper classmen with multiple years of eligibility left. ND likely returns 9 defensive starters in 2018 and most of their backups.

 

[IrishInOntario]

I have read that a number of times. I think he would be best in an H Back like role lining up as a slot or a wing back. An H Back used aggressively can be at the point of attack or the receiving target on over 50% of the plays. I even read an account from some beat writer for Zona a few years go that said the H Back was in on 80% of the plays.

We just need to verify this year that he has the hands to be a receiver, as an X or H Back. I would rather not use him in a Duval or Dan Smith role as mostly just a blocker. I hope he has the hands.

I think we're already seeing him transitioning into that H-Back / Big slot receiver role, the way Michigan wanted to use Devin Funchess. The reason you line Chase up on the inside is to have an extra blocker on the edge and force to force defenses into deciding to cover him with a safety, nickel or linebacker. He'll serve as a hybrid TE in many respects and gives you an alternate 2 TE look, with more movement capability.

 

[stu4don]

Great points, thanks guys. Just looking for our next Harrison Smith. (or Zeke Motta!) Kelly keeps talking about how he didn't develop players last year, this year is a real test at safety and d-line.

Any predictions as to who will nail down the position?

 

[Telx1]

Great points, thanks guys. Just looking for our next Harrison Smith. (or Zeke Motta!) Kelly keeps talking about how he didn't develop players last year, this year is a real test at safety and d-line.

Any predictions as to who will nail down the position?

Stu... my guess is Love will eventually be moved and will start at SS. Lots of variables here, but that would be my guess.
The position I am equally concerned about is the back up to Tillery, as there aren't many obvious choices that give us reason for optimism. You rarely put true freshmen into a NG role because they lack the requisite strength, but I'm hoping Hinish and/or Amosa and/or Ewell surprise here. None of the upper classmen options here have ever distinguished themselves in a game when given the chance.

 

[IrishInOntario]

Great points, thanks guys. Just looking for our next Harrison Smith. (or Zeke Motta!) Kelly keeps talking about how he didn't develop players last year, this year is a real test at safety and d-line.

Any predictions as to who will nail down the position?

Understandable. They're in the pipeline. I Think Isaiah Robertson and Derrik Allen are going to be a dynamic pairing. Alohi Gilman and Julian Love will be in that conversation as well.

 

[Bodizephax]

That would take an entire off season of dedication in the weight room, heading into his junior year, where he would just be learning a position. Even if Chase bulked up into the low 240lb range by this time next year, he would basically be a clone of Julian Okwara in terms of size (6'4, 240lbs). We're hearing about Okwara still being a year away from being big and strong enough to play the position on even a semi-regular basis. In this system, you're drop end is still going to be at least 250lbs and your SDE is going to be more in the 270+ range. Kelly has also statedd that Jamkr Jones will likely make the move to Drop in thenoff season because the stafg is going to have a hard time keeping him from outgrowing the Mike position. He could be 255lbs almost overnight. What I think a lot of people don't understand right now is that Notre Dame is not short on defensive ends. They're short on proven production and developed defensive ends. Moving Claypool to that position simply adds another body to the mix who would be under developed and unproven, like the rest if them.

WDE
Andrew Trumbetti (Senior)
Daelin Hayes (SOPH)
Julian Okwara (SOPH)
Jamir Jones (SOPH)
Kofi Wardlow (FR)
To be Determined (2018)

SDE
Jay Hayes (SR)- 5th year eligible
Khalid Kareem (SOPH)
Ade Ogundeji (SOPH)
Jonathan MacCollister (FR)
Justin Ademilola (2018)

Those are perfect numbers at both defensive end positions and ND is likely going to push for an extra defensive end in this class. Thomas Booker, for example, gives you that Jay Hayes body that could play SDE or 3 tech, depending on need.

I think Claypool is better left on offense, where he can continue to develop. The defensive end position is plenty deep with bodies right now. It needs those guys to develop or ready-to-play talent (ala Robert Beal from last cycle).

Me too. I think he may become one of our best receivers. Chase seems like a get me the ball in the clutch type player.

 

[Telx1]

When talking about safety options, we never put Nicco into the equation. I know his size is a major negative, but the kid is one of our best tacklers and hitters on the team. Based on his limited action, seems he lacks coverage speed and skills at this level, but was hoping that he might see some playing time in Elko's defense against running teams. Would love to see a highlight film of Nicco's biggest hits from last season. For 175 lbs, the kid flat out delivers.

 

[Uncle Money]

When talking about safety options, we never put Nicco into the equation. I know his size is a major negative, but the kid is one of our best tacklers and hitters on the team. Based on his limited action, seems he lacks coverage speed and skills at this level, but was hoping that he might see some playing time in Elko's defense against running teams. Would love to see a highlight film of Nicco's biggest hits from last season. For 175 lbs, the kid flat out delivers.

I honestly don't know why some posters are enamored by Nicco. You just said it yourself..."seems he lacks coverage speed and skills at this level"...yet, one or two nice hits and we want to see more of him on the field out of position and trailing the play continuously? Good God. Fine for him that he landed an offer and will get a great education to carry him for life. In reality, he's another recruiting "miss" by Kelly and staff. Small and slow may be fine for special teams. Not for a starting safety at a Power 5 school trying to take the next step. If he doesn't show on the 2-deep as a Junior....well, that should say something.

 

[Telx1]

Well, like I wrote, too slow for Major College football as a cover safety, but hoping to see him in the mix against running teams. He has delivered more than one or two hits, and on a team that was enamored with arm tackles and missed tackles, he clearly distinguished himself.

 

[Ara64]

Telx, will he have to set out the first half for that hit in the USC game?

 

[REMND]

I honestly don't know why some posters are enamored by Nicco. You just said it yourself..."seems he lacks coverage speed and skills at this level"...yet, one or two nice hits and we want to see more of him on the field out of position and trailing the play continuously? Good God. Fine for him that he landed an offer and will get a great education to carry him for life. In reality, he's another recruiting "miss" by Kelly and staff. Small and slow may be fine for special teams. Not for a starting safety at a Power 5 school trying to take the next step. If he doesn't show on the 2-deep as a Junior....well, that should say something.

I agree. I allocated Nico to special team captain that focuses on that area from the outset. Kind of like Chris Yura. He had the skill set for it and packed a wallop in his undersized body.

 

[Uncle Money]

I would suspect that if there is a productive place on this defense for Nicco then Coach Elko will find it. People seem to focus on the few "hits" and good plays he made instead of the constant "trailing the play from behind or personal foul penalties" that I saw. Notre Dame isn't competing for Sports Center Top 10 hits...they are competing for wins and you don't do that with short slow Safeties or Corners whoever they are. I would hope Coach Elko will fix the team's poor tackling issue. If he does...don't expect to see Mr. Fertitta much except on special teams or possibly a nickle package. Best of the worst is not a good thing for sure with this team.

All that said...I don't wish the kid any ill-will but he should never have been offered a scholarship as a D-1 Power 5 Safety if this team is going to contend...and I do hold that against Coach Kelly. He is not the only one but for some reason all people see with him are a couple of hits and completely forgetting all of the "misses".

 

[uputiit]

6-5 230 would be a huge college safety, but if he lacks lateral movement, it's a moot point, he'd have trouble covering from the safety or rover position if he can't move laterally.

Brian Urlacher played safety in college @ 260 lbs. This lad is a real player - sure would like to see him on the field in addition to special teams

 

[IrishInOntario]

Brian Urlacher played safety in college @ 260 lbs. This lad is a real player - sure would like to see him on the field in addition to special teams

When Rocky Long took over for Dennis Franchise at New Mexico, Brian Urlacher was a junior and has played linebacker as a freshman and sophomore. Long instituted a 4-2-5 defense in which he moved Urlacher, who was a 6'4, 235lb junior to the "Lobo" hybrid linebacker / safety position, which is nearly identical to Mike Elko's Rover position.

No Brian Urlacher did not play safety in college football. He played as essentially a free roaming SAM linebacker with coverage responsibilities and he did so at a time where spread offenses that put athletes in space were nowhere near as common or complex as they are now. It is a great misconception that Urlacher played as a typical safety on the hash or in deep centerfield. He played basically the same position that Tranquill will play this year and that Shayne Simon and JOK will play in the future.

Furthermore, I've heard dozens of people talk about how Urlacher played "safety" at 260lbs in college. We've already debunked the myth that he played safety in the way people think of a traditional safety. That just is not true. We also have to do away with the this idea that he played college football at 260lbs. The highest recorded weight Urlacher played at in the NFL was 258lbs, while playing Mike linebacker for the Bears. In college he played at around 235lbs and bulked up into the 250lb range when he knew he was converting to inside linebacker at the NFL level. As years went on, as is the case with most players in the NFL, age took its toll and he continued to gradually add bad weight up to the point of weighing near 260lbs when he retired (258lbs officially).

Don't get me wrong, I loved watching Urlacher play. He ran 4.6 at 250lbs! He was a specimen of an athlete and one hell of a player. But let's not conflate the truth about what position he played and at what size he played it. The only safety in the modern NFL with comparable measurables to Claypool is Kam Chancellor, who plays strong safety at 6'3, 232lbs. As a senior at Virginia Tech, Chancellor was 6'3, 224lbs. Claypool is 6'4.5, 228lbs as a sophomore. He's a couple meals away from 230lbs already and has no bad weight on his frame.

 

[Telx1]

Telx, will he have to set out the first half for that hit in the USC game?

Ara, I assume so. I tend to see this hit and a few others that were penalized through my ND slanted lens, and thought it was a poor call at the time, at least when compared to so many similar hits that weren't penalized.

 

[Pennick44]

I would suspect that if there is a productive place on this defense for Nicco then Coach Elko will find it. People seem to focus on the few "hits" and good plays he made instead of the constant "trailing the play from behind or personal foul penalties" that I saw. Notre Dame isn't competing for Sports Center Top 10 hits...they are competing for wins and you don't do that with short slow Safeties or Corners whoever they are. I would hope Coach Elko will fix the team's poor tackling issue. If he does...don't expect to see Mr. Fertitta much except on special teams or possibly a nickle package. Best of the worst is not a good thing for sure with this team.

All that said...I don't wish the kid any ill-will but he should never have been offered a scholarship as a D-1 Power 5 Safety if this team is going to contend...and I do hold that against Coach Kelly. He is not the only one but for some reason all people see with him are a couple of hits and completely forgetting all of the "misses".

It must be nice to see the future. I think the coaching staff is pretty happy to have the kid on the team. Tough hard nosed kid willing to play anywhere he is needed.