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The question that needs an answer

Telx1

Telx1

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May 13, 2012
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This team has the least experienced OL of any ND team in memory. Their stats looked pretty good against TAM because Leonard bailed them out repeatedly with his legs, and our running backs broke off two great runs. But the line is a major weakness right now, and we knew there would be significant growing pains, and yesterday was definitely painful. The question was always whether the defense could carry this team while the offense SLOWLY developed. That’s still the question.
If Greathouse catches the perfectly thrown homerun ball, we win yesterday and we would be talking about escaping a perfect trap game, etc…. But he didn’t and we aren’t.
Three observations about Leonard that concerns me. First, we moved the ball perfectly on our first TD drive with Leonard using his legs as a designed weapon, and yet we hardly saw this the rest of the game. Did Leonard get hurt or did Denbrock decide it was too risky? Secondly, I can’t recall a ND qb throwing the ball so poorly on so many passes. Some misses were clearly on the qb and receiver not being on the same page, and we don’t if these were qb mistakes or receiver mistakes. But, we do know Leonard missed so badly on several passes that neither the target or his defender had a chance at catching the errant throw. Thirdly, how the hell does any college qb underthrow his receiver streaking downfield by at least ten yards, and at the games most critical moment? Inexcusable and inexplicable unless Leonard is hurt and we don’t know it.
Going forward, we have to get much better play at the qb position, and this has to account for an OL that will continue to experience growing pains, and allow pressure on the qb in passing situations. My gut tells me each of Angeli and Minchey and Carr is a better passer than Leonard, but is any one of these mobile enough and strong enough and composed enough to thrive while our OL SLOWLY comes of age? It’s up to Denbrock to answer this and make his case to Freeman.
 
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I agree with everything you said here.

One other question that needs to be asked is why aren’t our top 2 backs getting more touches? Leonard was struggling and we kept putting the game in his hands.

Love had 1 touch after he hurdled a man for a TD. Price had 4 total carries. Both players averaged over 6.5 yards a carry. Why on earth aren’t we running the backs more?
 
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If anything will ever prove the importance of an O-line having experience and playing together for a while, it was this game...NIU had a line that started over a hundred games, many together...we had a line that had 11 starts and one together...and that was the biggest OBVIOUS difference in these two teams
 
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That's what I've been saying, and I don't think I'm a football genius. If RL is going to be successful for us, it's going to involve constantly using him as a running QB, with designed runs, so much so that he ends up with 700/800 yards rushing on the year. That it will be a core part of the offense. Not a change-up to keep defenses off guard. That we will end up a run first team on account of that factor, not because we pound the rock to the RBs over and over again in predictable fashion. And he easily might up end leading the team in rushing. He's not that great a passer, we don't have that great a set of WRs, and it was immediately demonstrated in the A&M game that he absolutely can rip off five to ten yard runs with ease on a regular basis in the manner of a textbook dual threat QB. So we definitely have a good pair of RBs who can also lots of yards/carries, but RL himself must be a dual threat who runs on a regular basis.
 
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It isn't just right now, but has been for a long time ... why are our running plays so plain vanilla? Why don't we have something in our playbook like what NIU has ... hand off to the TE or slot back that is coming in motion across the backfield? They constantly got good yardage when they ran that, and in some way it helped keep our defense honest when we had to be concerned with 3 possible runners (TB, QB, TE/SB) hitting different areas of the line.
 
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ticat said:
If anything will ever prove the importance of an O-line having experience and playing together for a while, it was this game...NIU had a line that started over a hundred games, many together...we had a line that had 11 starts and one together...and that was the biggest OBVIOUS difference in these two teams
Click to expand...
👍 The game is really in the trenches, with the O and D lines !
 
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82nd ranked in offensive efficiency after three weeks. They’ll get better, but nobody thought this would be the case.
 
ZibbyQuinn said:
Really not the issue at all, he can be productive if put in the right situations. OP calls out the major issues- OL, play calling,
Click to expand...
Yes, all of that is also true, but an experienced QB like RL who has had success should be ameliorating for some of this. It’s shocking we have the 82nd ranked offense as far as efficiency is concerned taking into account opponents.
 
Last edited:
theskibro said:
Leonard said he was fine. DenBrock chose not to run him after the first series Go figure
Click to expand...
Did you watch the game at all? Riley Leonard wasn't "fine..." What do you expect a 21-year-old starting QB to say?

I respect Mike Denbrock for protecting Riley Leonard.... given the fact, again, Leonard was not 100%.
 
Telx1 said:
This team has the least experienced OL of any ND team in memory. Their stats looked pretty good against TAM because Leonard bailed them out repeatedly with his legs, and our running backs broke off two great runs. But the line is a major weakness right now, and we knew there would be significant growing pains, and yesterday was definitely painful. The question was always whether the defense could carry this team while the offense SLOWLY developed. That’s still the question.
If Greathouse catches the perfectly thrown homerun ball, we win yesterday and we would be talking about escaping a perfect trap game, etc…. But he didn’t and we aren’t.
Three observations about Leonard that concerns me. First, we moved the ball perfectly on our first TD drive with Leonard using his legs as a designed weapon, and yet we hardly saw this the rest of the game. Did Leonard get hurt or did Denbrock decide it was too risky? Secondly, I can’t recall a ND qb throwing the ball so poorly on so many passes. Some misses were clearly on the qb and receiver not being on the same page, and we don’t if these were qb mistakes or receiver mistakes. But, we do know Leonard missed so badly on several passes that neither the target or his defender had a chance at catching the errant throw. Thirdly, how the hell does any college qb underthrow his receiver streaking downfield by at least ten yards, and at the games most critical moment? Inexcusable and inexplicable unless Leonard is hurt and we don’t know it.
Going forward, we have to get much better play at the qb position, and this has to account for an OL that will continue to experience growing pains, and allow pressure on the qb in passing situations. My gut tells me each of Angeli and Minchey and Carr is a better passer than Leonard, but is any one of these mobile enough and strong enough and composed enough to thrive while our OL SLOWLY comes of age? It’s up to Denbrock to answer this and make his case to Freeman.
Click to expand...
I forget who it was, but one of those analysts the other day was talking about Brock Purdy. He mentioned that Purdy doesn't get much love, because he doesn't have great "arm talent." The analyst said, who cares about arm talent? When you play QB, I am less concerned about the talent from the neck down and more concerned w/ the talent from the neck up. The ability to process efficiently. Feeling a sense of calm and peace in the midst of the chaos. Be quick, but also patient w/ your decisions. Hang in the pocket, until the very last second before throwing to the guy just as he gets open. Does this sound like RL? I hate to ever call out a player on this board, but RL doesn't appear to have much feel for the game, as a passer. The 2 interceptions he threw were very concerning, as he held onto the ball way too long. He appears shy w/ throwing in the middle of the field, as that's where both of his picks were. And RL does have a talented arm. I agree and think the best way to use him is similar to how ND used B. Wimbush. Run, run, and run. Throw just enough passes to keep the defense honest, but keep the pass plays simple. This formula won't win us a national championship, but it should allow ND to win the majority of their games.
 
Shakin' Down the Thunder said:
I forget who it was, but one of those analysts the other day was talking about Brock Purdy. He mentioned that Purdy doesn't get much love, because he doesn't have great "arm talent." The analyst said, who cares about arm talent? When you play QB, I am less concerned about the talent from the neck down and more concerned w/ the talent from the neck up. The ability to process efficiently. Feeling a sense of calm and peace in the midst of the chaos. Be quick, but also patient w/ your decisions. Hang in the pocket, until the very last second before throwing to the guy just as he gets open. Does this sound like RL? I hate to ever call out a player on this board, but RL doesn't appear to have much feel for the game, as a passer. The 2 interceptions he threw were very concerning, as he held onto the ball way too long. He appears shy w/ throwing in the middle of the field, as that's where both of his picks were. And RL does have a talented arm. I agree and think the best way to use him is similar to how ND used B. Wimbush. Run, run, and run. Throw just enough passes to keep the defense honest, but keep the pass plays simple. This formula won't win us a national championship, but it should allow ND to win the majority of their games.
Click to expand...
Classic! Not exactly an endorsement of RL, a Brandon Wimbush comparison. Now that you bring that name up, you know how that one went. He managed to avoid the MAC upset, unlike RL, but still ended up being pulled a game later and thus began the glory of the Ian Book era. So if that's how we're looking at it, let's start getting Angeli warmed up! I think he would take that....
 
Notre Dame recruits the 1 year quarterback rentals....and has for the past three seasons. There is no confidence in the back ups for whatever reason. I understand that this young offensive line exposes the inexperience of the back up quarterbacks. But....With a Natty out of the equation.....play for the future with the talent that was recruited. If not...they will move on and another rental is around the corner.
 
we can still make the playoffs but this team has to play to its potential
AND I do not see Freeman doing that
 
ZibbyQuinn said:
Really not the issue at all, he can be productive if put in the right situations. OP calls out the major issues- OL, play calling,
Click to expand...
Absolutely the issue. He missed a LOT of open receivers yesterday, and that last interception was horrendous. Not even a true freshman starting his first game ever throws that ball. C'mon.
 
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Telx1 said:
This team has the least experienced OL of any ND team in memory. Their stats looked pretty good against TAM because Leonard bailed them out repeatedly with his legs, and our running backs broke off two great runs. But the line is a major weakness right now, and we knew there would be significant growing pains, and yesterday was definitely painful. The question was always whether the defense could carry this team while the offense SLOWLY developed. That’s still the question.
If Greathouse catches the perfectly thrown homerun ball, we win yesterday and we would be talking about escaping a perfect trap game, etc…. But he didn’t and we aren’t.
Three observations about Leonard that concerns me. First, we moved the ball perfectly on our first TD drive with Leonard using his legs as a designed weapon, and yet we hardly saw this the rest of the game. Did Leonard get hurt or did Denbrock decide it was too risky? Secondly, I can’t recall a ND qb throwing the ball so poorly on so many passes. Some misses were clearly on the qb and receiver not being on the same page, and we don’t if these were qb mistakes or receiver mistakes. But, we do know Leonard missed so badly on several passes that neither the target or his defender had a chance at catching the errant throw. Thirdly, how the hell does any college qb underthrow his receiver streaking downfield by at least ten yards, and at the games most critical moment? Inexcusable and inexplicable unless Leonard is hurt and we don’t know it.
Going forward, we have to get much better play at the qb position, and this has to account for an OL that will continue to experience growing pains, and allow pressure on the qb in passing situations. My gut tells me each of Angeli and Minchey and Carr is a better passer than Leonard, but is any one of these mobile enough and strong enough and composed enough to thrive while our OL SLOWLY comes of age? It’s up to Denbrock to answer this and make his case to Freeman.
Click to expand...
"My gut tells me each of Angeli and Minchey and Carr is a better passer than Leonard, but is any one of these mobile enough" No but Buchner is.
 
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Telx1 said:
This team has the least experienced OL of any ND team in memory. Their stats looked pretty good against TAM because Leonard bailed them out repeatedly with his legs, and our running backs broke off two great runs. But the line is a major weakness right now, and we knew there would be significant growing pains, and yesterday was definitely painful. The question was always whether the defense could carry this team while the offense SLOWLY developed. That’s still the question.
If Greathouse catches the perfectly thrown homerun ball, we win yesterday and we would be talking about escaping a perfect trap game, etc…. But he didn’t and we aren’t.
Three observations about Leonard that concerns me. First, we moved the ball perfectly on our first TD drive with Leonard using his legs as a designed weapon, and yet we hardly saw this the rest of the game. Did Leonard get hurt or did Denbrock decide it was too risky? Secondly, I can’t recall a ND qb throwing the ball so poorly on so many passes. Some misses were clearly on the qb and receiver not being on the same page, and we don’t if these were qb mistakes or receiver mistakes. But, we do know Leonard missed so badly on several passes that neither the target or his defender had a chance at catching the errant throw. Thirdly, how the hell does any college qb underthrow his receiver streaking downfield by at least ten yards, and at the games most critical moment? Inexcusable and inexplicable unless Leonard is hurt and we don’t know it.
Going forward, we have to get much better play at the qb position, and this has to account for an OL that will continue to experience growing pains, and allow pressure on the qb in passing situations. My gut tells me each of Angeli and Minchey and Carr is a better passer than Leonard, but is any one of these mobile enough and strong enough and composed enough to thrive while our OL SLOWLY comes of age? It’s up to Denbrock to answer this and make his case to Freeman.
Click to expand...
This was not a trap game. NIU was by far the better team they were better coached, they were more athletic, and they were more disciplined. Our team is not very good. We got crushed in the trenches on both sides or offensive line is absolutely horrible for some reason we wound up with our starting wide receivers being transfers so you gotta ask what the hell was Freeman doing with his recruiting. Defense is slightly above average Freeman needs to be fired. It’s year three and the collapses to second tier teams continues.
 
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Freeman is an idiot… 18 on his act is being reported

Get him out of south bend (I don’t mean just to west Lafayette for a weekend)
 
savvyandsassier said:
That's what I've been saying, and I don't think I'm a football genius. If RL is going to be successful for us, it's going to involve constantly using him as a running QB, with designed runs, so much so that he ends up with 700/800 yards rushing on the year. That it will be a core part of the offense. Not a change-up to keep defenses off guard. That we will end up a run first team on account of that factor, not because we pound the rock to the RBs over and over again in predictable fashion. And he easily might up end leading the team in rushing. He's not that great a passer, we don't have that great a set of WRs, and it was immediately demonstrated in the A&M game that he absolutely can rip off five to ten yard runs with ease on a regular basis in the manner of a textbook dual threat QB. So we definitely have a good pair of RBs who can also lots of yards/carries, but RL himself must be a dual threat who runs on a regular basis.
Click to expand...
When your QB runs that much he may not make it through the season
 
Telx1 said:
This team has the least experienced OL of any ND team in memory. Their stats looked pretty good against TAM because Leonard bailed them out repeatedly with his legs, and our running backs broke off two great runs. But the line is a major weakness right now, and we knew there would be significant growing pains, and yesterday was definitely painful. The question was always whether the defense could carry this team while the offense SLOWLY developed. That’s still the question.
If Greathouse catches the perfectly thrown homerun ball, we win yesterday and we would be talking about escaping a perfect trap game, etc…. But he didn’t and we aren’t.
Three observations about Leonard that concerns me. First, we moved the ball perfectly on our first TD drive with Leonard using his legs as a designed weapon, and yet we hardly saw this the rest of the game. Did Leonard get hurt or did Denbrock decide it was too risky? Secondly, I can’t recall a ND qb throwing the ball so poorly on so many passes. Some misses were clearly on the qb and receiver not being on the same page, and we don’t if these were qb mistakes or receiver mistakes. But, we do know Leonard missed so badly on several passes that neither the target or his defender had a chance at catching the errant throw. Thirdly, how the hell does any college qb underthrow his receiver streaking downfield by at least ten yards, and at the games most critical moment? Inexcusable and inexplicable unless Leonard is hurt and we don’t know it.
Going forward, we have to get much better play at the qb position, and this has to account for an OL that will continue to experience growing pains, and allow pressure on the qb in passing situations. My gut tells me each of Angeli and Minchey and Carr is a better passer than Leonard, but is any one of these mobile enough and strong enough and composed enough to thrive while our OL SLOWLY comes of age? It’s up to Denbrock to answer this and make his case to Freeman.
Click to expand...
I wonder if Leonard's right hand is hurt from banging it in the A&M game.
 
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IrishMike409 said:
I don't think it is.

The throws are horrible. Would you be shocked to find out he's injured? I wouldn't. That 2nd INT was under thrown by 10 yards.
Click to expand...
They ran him like crazy first drive of the game. If his hand was injured they would not have done that.

He threw the ball last week like he did vs A&M, terrible. That's how he also threw it in 2023 at duke. I was hopeful 2023 was a fluke due to his foot injury and lack of talent at duke. It wasn't, he's a terrible passer, and even worse at reading defenses and understanding route concepts.

If he had a hand injury impacting his throwing he shouldn't have played, or at minimum benched at half time.

If he had a hand injury and was played, freeman an the entire offensive staff should be terminated with cause immediately. I know freeman isn't going to get fired in season, despite the fact we have a better HC standing next to him. But again, if leonard played the whole game with a hand impacting his throwing, yes he shouldn't be giving a PC today at noon, Pete should be announcing Golden as interim HC, and they will immediately begin the search for the next coach that will most likely not finish until college football season is over.

He didn't under throw that pass by 10 yards, it was underthrown by 15-20 yds. Mitchell had to come to a compete stop and it still was short of him. 10 yds further and it isn't picked, 15-20 yds further and it's a td, and i'm not so disappointed at the fraud we have as a HC.
 
Holycrossover3 said:
I agree with everything you said here.

One other question that needs to be asked is why aren’t our top 2 backs getting more touches? Leonard was struggling and we kept putting the game in his hands.

Love had 1 touch after he hurdled a man for a TD. Price had 4 total carries. Both players averaged over 6.5 yards a carry. Why on earth aren’t we running the backs more?
Click to expand...


We keep discussing this across many threads. Even we amateurs know Freeman and Denbrock called a terrible game plan. Exactly: they put it on the legs and arms of a Leonard who did worse as the game dragged.

I remain amazed.

I'm a big fan of the Croatia NT in soccer. Stubborn coach who sticks with older accomplished players. But after a disastrous Euro tournament, he's making changes...even him.

Some coaches in the sports I follow can't. Happens all too often. And these are pros. Freeman is one of them apparently.
 
TalentedMrRippley said:
This was not a trap game. NIU was by far the better team they were better coached, they were more athletic, and they were more disciplined. Our team is not very good. We got crushed in the trenches on both sides or offensive line is absolutely horrible for some reason we wound up with our starting wide receivers being transfers so you gotta ask what the hell was Freeman doing with his recruiting. Defense is slightly above average Freeman needs to be fired. It’s year three and the collapses to second tier teams continues.
Click to expand...
Give me a break. NIU is not more athletic.
 
IrishMike409 said:
I don't think it is.

The throws are horrible. Would you be shocked to find out he's injured? I wouldn't. That 2nd INT was under thrown by 10 yards.
Click to expand...
Then Freeman is inept for playing him vs NIU. Regardless, Leonard doesn't have a strong arm. His career average per pass is 7 yards.
 
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