The GREAT OZ of ND football !!!

[john0gaunt]

You can compare someone's athleticism

How do you compare a career of a QB who played 4 years and played in the NFL to a part time freshman QB

If you can't figure that out.....

"Tyler seems more like Brady Quinn to me. Similar size, has the arm and can move around well." Will he ever gain the right to hold BQ's jock? Only time will tell. But he is going to need to do a lot of work. And he will need to earn the starting job. Something BQ did.

Having met Joe T a few times, he has more the size and style of game of Drew Pyne.

It's clear you never saw BQ play. There's nothing wrong with that. But I stand by my post.

 

[Golson5]

"Tyler seems more like Brady Quinn to me. Similar size, has the arm and can move around well." Will he ever gain the right to hold BQ's jock? Only time will tell. But he is going to need to do a lot of work. And he will need to earn the starting job. Something BQ did.

Having met Joe T a few times, he has more the size and style of game of Drew Pyne.

It's clear you never saw BQ play. There's nothing wrong with that. But I stand by my post.

I have no clue what this guy is talking about

 

[Notre Dame du Lac]

Okay, superior.

Faster, quicker, more agile

TB is definitely the better athlete of the 2

I have no clue what this guy is talking about

I don't see the connection at all.

In fact, BQ was a pure QB. Buchner looks like a wide receiver when he runs the ball. His sidearm inaccuracy and under-thrown deep ball is what had him graded out at the bottom of the pack in the elite-11 and surprised all the analysts that had him ranked higher than he should have been. BQ the opposite, an underrated recruit that developed into the best QB in the nation. He was a true pocket passer that had the ability to run for a first down if he needed to, which he rarely did because he was a Maxwell Winning and Johny Unitas Golden Arm winning quarterback. A strong and accurate armed quarterback deep and intermediate, that was built like a brick shit house. Rarely did he run the ball. I see TB (at this point) as a run first QB that has a lot to work on as a passer. A very good QB coach, known for turning kids into elite QB's, could likely help him develop into a great QB. He has a lot of potential. TR brought him in. If he fails to develop, I blame the recruiter, QB coach, and OC.

 

[greengael]

BQ could pick the team up and carry it on his back when needed. I remember him against UCLA I think it was, guy picked the team up and won the game single handed. Running and throwing. TB may get there, but it’s gonna take a lot of work. If he wins the job and can stay healthy. Lot of ifs..

Jeff Samardja[sp?] Had something to do with the last second score against UCLA if I recall correctly?

 

[john0gaunt]

Jeff Samardja[sp?] Had something to do with the last second score against UCLA if I recall correctly?

Thanks for this. You nudged me to look back at the season and while the UCLA win was great, it was the Mich St game that year that BQ brought the team back from a huge deficit for the win. But most definitely, Samardzija was a big piece of the success in both games. We can agree though that BQ couldn't be expected to throw the ball to himself, right?

 

[Drinking The Green Koolaid]

I don't see the connection at all.

In fact, BQ was a pure QB. Buchner looks like a wide receiver when he runs the ball. His sidearm inaccuracy and under-thrown deep ball is what had him graded out at the bottom of the pack in the elite-11 and surprised all the analysts that had him ranked higher than he should have been. BQ the opposite, an underrated recruit that developed into the best QB in the nation. He was a true pocket passer that had the ability to run for a first down if he needed to, which he rarely did because he was a Maxwell Winning and Johny Unitas Golden Arm winning quarterback. A strong and accurate armed quarterback deep and intermediate, that was built like a brick shit house. Rarely did he run the ball. I see TB (at this point) as a run first QB that has a lot to work on as a passer. A very good QB coach, known for turning kids into elite QB's, could likely help him develop into a great QB. He has a lot of potential. TR brought him in. If he fails to develop, I blame the recruiter, QB coach, and OC.

Brady Quinn had a nice career at ND and put up some big numbers, but if we are being completely honest about his arm talent, it wasn't what you are describing. While Brady had prototypical size for an NFL QB, he had only average deep ball strength--he had nothing close to Everett Golson's arm, for example--and he wasn't particularly accurate with deep or intermediate throws. Don't forget Brady was throwing to some pretty good WRs and TEs at ND: Jeff Samardzija, Mo Stovall, Rhema McKnight, Anthony Fasano, John Carlson, etc., and they probably covered up some of his accuracy issues. Many thought Brady would be a top 10 NFL draft pick because of his size and the numbers he put up at ND, but in his workouts before the 2007 NFL draft he failed to impress the scouts with his either his arm strength or his accuracy, and that is one of the reasons he dropped down the draft board. Once he got to the NFL, his accuracy problems continued. When you play in the NFL, the QB has to be able to put the ball in tight spots. Brady struggled with that, and that is why he had a fairly lackluster NFL career. I love what Brady Quinn did at ND, but that is an honest assessment of his arm talent.

I haven't watched enough of Tyler Buchner to assess his throwing arm, except to say that he has an unorthodox throwing motion. If he can put the ball where it belongs that won't matter, but I guess we will see if he can. He is pretty clearly an elite running QB, but the jury is out on whether he will be able to rely upon his passing skills to move the team down the field when we need him to.

 

[Notre Dame du Lac]

Brady Quinn had a nice career at ND and put up some big numbers, but if we are being completely honest about his arm talent, it wasn't what you are describing. While Brady had prototypical size for an NFL QB, he had only average deep ball strength--he had nothing close to Everett Golson's arm, for example--and he wasn't particularly accurate with deep or intermediate throws. Don't forget Brady was throwing to some pretty good WRs and TEs at ND: Jeff Samardzija, Mo Stovall, Rhema McKnight, Anthony Fasano, John Carlson, etc., and they probably covered up some of his accuracy issues. Many thought Brady would be a top 10 NFL draft pick because of his size and the numbers he put up at ND, but in his workouts before the 2007 NFL draft he failed to impress the scouts with his either his arm strength or his accuracy, and that is one of the reasons he dropped down the draft board. Once he got to the NFL, his accuracy problems continued. When you play in the NFL, the QB has to be able to put the ball in tight spots. Brady struggled with that, and that is why he had a fairly lackluster NFL career. I love what Brady Quinn did at ND, but that is an honest assessment of his arm talent.

I haven't watched enough of Tyler Buchner to assess his throwing arm, except to say that he has an unorthodox throwing motion. If he can put the ball where it belongs that won't matter, but I guess we will see if he can. He is pretty clearly an elite running QB, but the jury is out on whether he will be able to rely upon his passing skills to move the team down the field when we need him to.

He’s not nearly as big armed as we need to win a NC. He cannot push the ball downfield for 50-60 yards over the top of a safety. No amount of coaching is going to give him that god given ability. Elite quarterbacks need to do that 10 x’s a year or so. He has a strange motion that had not been corrected at all. Essentially every QB analyst at the elite 11 said he is going to need to correct that as he developed it at some point late in HS. Doesn’t seem he’s tried one bit. There was 0 indication that his throwing motion was corrected in the slightest on film. I think TR has some promise as an OC, but TB is quite inaccurate and inconsistent outside the intermediate game. Pyne, while also lacking the huge deep ball, is a better and more accurate QB imo. TB is a run first QB. I am betting Drew Pyne is the starter by mid year. Ohio State is going to chew TB up and spit him out. Every defense will make him throw the ball. The board will be calling for Drew Pyne by halftime. It’ll be Reese’s fault if we don’t land a 5 star quarterback and WR in the 2023 class. Hope I’m wrong about Rees and recruiting. I think Dante Moore and Rees could do some big things together at ND. Even if I am, TB is not going to develop the deep ball the elite QBs have. We need Dante Moore. He’s the most important recruit in the last 10 years. TB not having a good year and seeing Pyne start, might be a good reason for Moore to come to ND. Michigan has JJ McCarthy and from all accounts, he is very talented. Moore would spend until his junior or senior year battling to play at UofM, possibly needing to transfer because it’s unlikely they’re going to bench JJ unless he’s playing poorly. At ND, he’d likely start as a true freshman and he’d also probably seal the deal for Carnell Tate and a loaf of other offensive talent if he committed. Dante Moore’s best path to the NFL is with ND imo. He will start from day 1 and with our defensive recruiting, he’ll likely be playing for a title if he’s as good as I think he is.

 

[john0gaunt]

except to say that he has an unorthodox throwing motion

Reading this reminds me of Chad Bradford in Moneyball.

Just move the chains, kiddo. The rest will take care of itself.

I don't care what he does in the NFL.

 

[Patrirish]

Brady Quinn had a nice career at ND and put up some big numbers, but if we are being completely honest about his arm talent, it wasn't what you are describing. While Brady had prototypical size for an NFL QB, he had only average deep ball strength--he had nothing close to Everett Golson's arm, for example--and he wasn't particularly accurate with deep or intermediate throws. Don't forget Brady was throwing to some pretty good WRs and TEs at ND: Jeff Samardzija, Mo Stovall, Rhema McKnight, Anthony Fasano, John Carlson, etc., and they probably covered up some of his accuracy issues. Many thought Brady would be a top 10 NFL draft pick because of his size and the numbers he put up at ND, but in his workouts before the 2007 NFL draft he failed to impress the scouts with his either his arm strength or his accuracy, and that is one of the reasons he dropped down the draft board. Once he got to the NFL, his accuracy problems continued. When you play in the NFL, the QB has to be able to put the ball in tight spots. Brady struggled with that, and that is why he had a fairly lackluster NFL career. I love what Brady Quinn did at ND, but that is an honest assessment of his arm talent.

I haven't watched enough of Tyler Buchner to assess his throwing arm, except to say that he has an unorthodox throwing motion. If he can put the ball where it belongs that won't matter, but I guess we will see if he can. He is pretty clearly an elite running QB, but the jury is out on whether he will be able to rely upon his passing skills to move the team down the field when we need him to.

Brady Quinn’s stats refute your opinion

 

[Notre Dame du Lac]

Brady Quinn’s stats refute your opinion

Correct. Maxwell Award and Unitas Award say differently.

 

[Drinking The Green Koolaid]

Brady Quinn’s stats refute your opinion

Did you even read what I wrote? I said Brady put up some nice stats at ND. But just because he had nice stats doesn't mean he had a strong or an accurate arm. Look at Brady's NFL numbers. Those stats completely refute your opinion. And look at what NFL people said about Brady Quinn's arm strength and accuracy. They pretty much said the same thing I said. But that's right, you know more than NFL scouts. Ian Book had some great numbers at ND, too. Are you going to tell me now that IB had a gun for an arm? You just like to argue with people for the sake of argument.

 

[Drinking The Green Koolaid]

Correct. Maxwell Award and Unitas Award say differently.

Ditto for my previous post.

 

[Patrirish]

Did you even read what I wrote? I said Brady put up some nice stats at ND. But just because he had nice stats doesn't mean he had a strong or an accurate arm. Look at Brady's NFL numbers. Those stats completely refute your opinion. And look at what NFL people said about Brady Quinn's arm strength and accuracy. They pretty much said the same thing I said. But that's right, you know more than NFL scouts. Ian Book had some great numbers at ND, too. Are you going to tell me now that IB had a gun for an arm? You just like to argue with people for the sake of argument.

No I like to argue with people who make foolish statements absent documented evidence

Brady Quinn’s career in the NFL is irrelevant when it comes to evaluating his career at ND.

Inserting Ian Book has nothing to do with Brady Quinn at ND

But nice attempt to divert the topic at hand in order to cover up your error.

Your assessment of Brady Quinn’s passing performance at ND is dead wrong !

Then again you probably think that a 64.9 % CP with an 8.7 YPA is reflective of inadequate performance

 

[Drinking The Green Koolaid]

No I like to argue with people who make foolish statements absent documented evidence

Brady Quinn’s career in the NFL is irrelevant when it comes to evaluating his career at ND.

Inserting Ian Book has nothing to do with Brady Quinn at ND

But nice attempt to divert the topic at hand in order to cover up your error.

Your assessment of Brady Quinn’s passing performance at ND is dead wrong !

Then again you probably think that a 64.9 % CP with an 8.7 YPA is reflective of inadequate performance

First, my post didn't "evaluate" BQ's career at ND. I was merely stating an OPINION in response to an earlier post that said Brady had a strong and accurate arm. His completion percentage and YPA don't really address that. If you even watched ND football during the BQ years, you would know that the offense had a lot of dink and dunk in it. So of course that inflates CP. While Brady could throw an accurate short pass, it was his accuracy on the deep and intermediate range passes that were at issue in my mind. Second, if you are going to use numbers to try and refute my opinion, at least make an honest argument with them. You cherry picked figures for Brady's best year at ND. BQ's career CP at ND was 58.9% His career YPA was 7.3. A 58.9% CP is pretty run of the mill. A CP in the high 60s is usually considered elite. Third, Brady's NFL CP was 53.8% and his YPA was 5.3. You dismiss those numbers because they completely refute your argument. But they aren't irrelevant, as you assert. They go to the heart of the argument I made: while BQ had fair to above average arm strength, he did not have a gun for a passing arm and he struggled with accuracy on the deep and mid-range passes. His NFL career bears out that argument. Again, try to read and comprehend what I said. The only one making diversionary arguments here is you. I never said BQ didn't perform adequately at ND. To the contrary, he performed quite well while he was at ND, which I fully acknowledged. My opinion went to his arm strength and accuracy. You completely missed the point, as you often do.

 

[Drinking The Green Koolaid]

BTW, lest you think I have some dislike for Brady Quinn, I want to be clear that nothing could be further from the truth. I really like the job he does as an analyst for college and pro football. He does a great job, and happy to see he has found his niche in life. Also appreciate the great career he had at ND. He is a fine ND man.

 

[Patrirish]

First, my post didn't "evaluate" BQ's career at ND. I was merely stating an OPINION in response to an earlier post that said Brady had a strong and accurate arm. His completion percentage and YPA don't really address that. If you even watched ND football during the BQ years, you would know that the offense had a lot of dink and dunk in it. So of course that inflates CP. While Brady could throw an accurate short pass, it was his accuracy on the deep and intermediate range passes that were at issue in my mind. Second, if you are going to use numbers to try and refute my opinion, at least make an honest argument with them. You cherry picked figures for Brady's best year at ND. BQ's career CP at ND was 58.9% His career YPA was 7.3. A 58.9% CP is pretty run of the mill. A CP in the high 60s is usually considered elite. Third, Brady's NFL CP was 53.8% and his YPA was 5.3. You dismiss those numbers because they completely refute your argument. But they aren't irrelevant, as you assert. They go to the heart of the argument I made: while BQ had fair to above average arm strength, he did not have a gun for a passing arm and he struggled with accuracy on the deep and mid-range passes. His NFL career bears out that argument. Again, try to read and comprehend what I said. The only one making diversionary arguments here is you. I never said BQ didn't perform adequately at ND. To the contrary, he performed quite well while he was at ND, which I fully acknowledged. My opinion went to his arm strength and accuracy. You completely missed the point, as you often do.

Your opinion isn’t supported by Brady Quinn’s stats.

Brady’s freshman stats lower his career stats

Look at his JR and SR year stats

Present your evidence that supports your opinion that Brady Quinn was inaccurate.
His CP was 64.9 % with a YPA OF 8.7. Those are facts.. Where are your facts that support your claim that Brady was inaccurate ?

 

[Patrirish]

BTW, lest you think I have some dislike for Brady Quinn, I want to be clear that nothing could be further from the truth. I really like the job he does as an analyst for college and pro football. He does a great job, and happy to see he has found his niche in life. Also appreciate the great career he had at ND. He is a fine ND man.

We agree on that.

QB’s throw what the called play dictates.

Very few plays call for 40 and 50 yard in air throws.

YPA when combined with CP is a pretty good indicator of the QB’s accuracy and throwing distances

Completion percentages decrease in direct proportion to the length of the throw.
I.e. The chances of completing a 50 yard in air pass are much lower than a 5 or 10 yard in air pass.

Arm strength is important but not in the sole context of throwing 50 yard in air passes.

Accuracy is the most important throwing quality and that’s where CP and YPA come into play in determining how accurate a QB is.

Wimbush had arm strength.

 

[Notre Dame du Lac]

Regardless of the above argument. BQ was good. TB lacks deep ball. Not easily corrected.

 

[john0gaunt]

BQ was a great college QB. TB has a 5* arm, he was just used as a runner by Kelly and didn't get to air it out.

This thread reminds me of something I was sure about a few years ago. ND doesn't need the once in a generation talent at QB. They need an excellent college QB. One that will play out his eligibility. Heck, Kizer was average and left for the league after one losing season. If the league thought BQ didn't have the arm strength then great, they left him alone and he stayed and played out his eligibility. While I saw in TB a guy with an incredible quick release this year, Maybe TB has a problem with his motion. That's great news, the NFL will leave him alone. Ditto with Drew. He could be a great college QB and will play all his years at ND. That's what ND needs. With an excellent D and solid line and great skill players surrounding him, either could take ND to a championship. All they need is experience and the opportunity.

 

[Drinking The Green Koolaid]

We agree on that.

QB’s throw what the called play dictates.

Very few plays call for 40 and 50 yard in air throws.

YPA when combined with CP is a pretty good indicator of the QB’s accuracy and throwing distances

Completion percentages decrease in direct proportion to the length of the throw.
I.e. The chances of completing a 50 yard in air pass are much lower than a 5 or 10 yard in air pass.

Arm strength is important but not in the sole context of throwing 50 yard in air passes.

Accuracy is the most important throwing quality and that’s where CP and YPA come into play in determining how accurate a QB is.

Wimbush had arm strength.

I do not disagree with a single point you just made, and yet I still do not believe any of those points, singly or collectively, at all refute my argument, which was: (1) Brady Quinn did not have elite arm strength; and (2) Brady Quinn struggled with accuracy on deep and intermediate routes. Do those things mean BQ was a bad QB? Of course not. Ian Book had even less arm strength than BQ and struggled even more with accuracy on deep and intermediate throws, yet we all (or at least most of us) can agree that Ian had a very nice career as QB for ND.

I am sure someone, somewhere, has compiled stats on BQ's completion percentages over the range of throws he attempted. I expect he fared pretty poorly in the NFL, when defenders were simply way better than those he faced in college.

My original post was responding to a post that said BQ had elite arm strength and accuracy. I was simply contesting that argument as revisionist history, and being at odds with my own personal observations. I watched every single game of Brady Quinn's career at ND, and attended a number of those game in person. I know what I saw. An elite QB can spin the ball and can fit the football into tight spots where only the receiver can get it. Watch Aaron Rodgers, Matthew Stafford, Justin Herbert, or some of the other big-armed QBs playing in the NFL, and watch how tight a spiral they throw, and how they are able to fit the ball into tight windows. That was not Brady Quinn, and if you are making an argument to the contrary I think you are flat out wrong. Brady did not have a successful NFL career for a number of reasons, but one of them was that he lacked an elite NFL arm, and he wasn't particularly accurate on deep and intermediate throws. And so his NFL career sort of fizzled out. That doesn't diminish his career at ND, but is, I believe, an honest assessment of what kind of arm talent he had. Of course, pure arm strength means nothing if you are unable to effectively use if. Brandon Wimbush is a perfect example of that principle. And not all elite QBs have cannon arms; Drew Brees is a perfect example of that. I am merely stating an opinion as to an observation that was made about Brady Quinn's arm talent that I happen to believe is inaccurate.

 

[Drinking The Green Koolaid]

Regardless of the above argument. BQ was good. TB lacks deep ball. Not easily corrected.

There is no question but that Brady Quinn was a very good QB for ND, and maybe one of its best.

As for your observation about TB, I haven't seen enough of his play to make a judgment about that.

 

[FightingIrish44]

There is no question but that Brady Quinn was a very good QB for ND, and maybe one of its best.

As for your observation about TB, I haven't seen enough of his play to make a judgment about that.

He hardly threw the ball downfield so I don’t think its even fair for anyone to say he lacks the deep ball unless they’ve seen him in practice or something.

He did have one excellent deep fade to Austin in the Virginia Tech game though.

 

[Notre Dame du Lac]

He hardly threw the ball downfield so I don’t think its even fair for anyone to say he lacks the deep ball unless they’ve seen him in practice or something.

He did have one excellent deep fade to Austin in the Virginia Tech game though.

My statement is from the people that watch practice. I listen to Irish Breakdown all the time. His mechanics are an issue and he cannot push it like the elites. Likely wouldn’t matter since we don’t have any Mike Floyd’s or Golden Tate’s to throw to anyways. Can he be a fine college QB? Sure. He could be Ian Book good for all I know. Is he deep and accurate enough to win a NC, while carrying his team over the likes of Bama or Georgia? Nah. Not unless we are Georgia talented. Clemson proved you can win a NC with good, not elite recruiting. However, to do that, you need a Trevor Lawrence. Our options are to out recruit Georgia, land a 5 star like Dante Moore, or be satisfied without a playoff win. I strongly believe Drew Pyne is our best option and I think the season will prove that. No, he also isn’t great, but he’s more Bookish, which is good enough for TR I guess. My hope is Moore and Tate pick ND. If that happens, we are in business.

 

[BodiTheGreat]

Honestly, I think Drew Pyne was this guy, but Kelly didn't want to take any chances this year because he was looking for a new job and didn't give 2 sh*ts about next year.

Tyler seems more like Brady Quinn to me. Similar size, has the arm and can move around well.

Tyler is explosive. Best QB at ND since Joe Theisman. But Buchner will win a Heisman.

 

[Patrirish]

Tyler is explosive. Best QB at ND since Joe Theisman. But Buchner will win a Heisman.

I disagree with you about Kelly looking for a job this year.

At the end of the year, I think he concluded that it was extremely difficult to make the final 4 and opportunity met availability and he hit the bid.

No way was he looking to bail at the beginning of the season or during the season

 

[d1042]

Ross Browner

Geez, these are getting so hard to take!

 

[greengael]

Thanks for this. You nudged me to look back at the season and while the UCLA win was great, it was the Mich St game that year that BQ brought the team back from a huge deficit for the win. But most definitely, Samardzija was a big piece of the success in both games. We can agree though that BQ couldn't be expected to throw the ball to himself, right?

Yes,Without question. I was remembering the last play vs. UCLA and the move after catch between two defenders for the T.D.

 

[Telx1]

I’m not astute enough to make meaningful comparisons between QB’s playing in different decades with different teammates. More comfortable talking current QB’s on our roster. We don’t have anything close to enough play by either Buchner or Pyne to know what we’ll get. We know that Pyne has some swagger, more ability to extend plays than thought, and a bit of a gunslinger mentality. We know Buckner has elite running Ability for a QB, the Ability to run the RPO to put defenses on their heels, etc…. We know that Pyne can move the offense with mid range passing, but we don’t know if Pyne can effectively make his reads and make good passing decisions over the course of a complete game with in game adjustments. We know even less about Buchner’s passing. My hope is that Buchner wins the starting nod and proves to be an effective passer, as his dual threat potential is through the roof.

 

[d1042]

how do you compare Talents (upon arriving at ND) between Wimbush and Buchner?
Runner, arm strength and passing effectiveness?

 

[Golson5]

how do you compare Talents (upon arriving at ND) between Wimbush and Buchner?
Runner, arm strength and passing effectiveness?

Runner is close but Id say Buchner

Arm strength right now Wimbush

Passing effectiveness, tbd, but Id say Buchner