Why?
It seems perfectly likely that several teams are recruiting on about the same level...a near certainty in fact
Team Recruiting Rankings - ND #26 3.15 Average Star Ranking - Pathetic
- Thread starter Lucky Green
- Start date
Why?
It seems perfectly likely that several teams are recruiting on about the same level...a near certainty in fact
Decker
we may have totally different perspectives regarding the state of recruiting; well, as pertains to the defensive side of the ball. But at least you have enough interest to have looked into the classes and classes of those teams ND is pursuing. I salute you for that, and I hope you will continue to delve intothe implications of recruiting and the relationship to team performances. The differences are subtle but they are the things that separate the true playoff contenders from the second pack.
The top is not locked down and key to the the entry into that group is talent (recruiting), excellent coaching (development) and staying healthy, and of course Luck.
The exchange may have appeared contentious, but I do appreciate your efforts towards recruiting.
(btw: the 3rd ranked 2013 class was just the subject of an article where they revisit the class and re-rank the class and except for Jaylon, Fuller and Robinson the rest of the class was reranked to a lower grade; on 247)
we may have totally different perspectives regarding the state of recruiting; well, as pertains to the defensive side of the ball. But at least you have enough interest to have looked into the classes and classes of those teams ND is pursuing. I salute you for that, and I hope you will continue to delve intothe implications of recruiting and the relationship to team performances. The differences are subtle but they are the things that separate the true playoff contenders from the second pack.
The top is not locked down and key to the the entry into that group is talent (recruiting), excellent coaching (development) and staying healthy, and of course Luck.
The exchange may have appeared contentious, but I do appreciate your efforts towards recruiting.
(btw: the 3rd ranked 2013 class was just the subject of an article where they revisit the class and re-rank the class and except for Jaylon, Fuller and Robinson the rest of the class was reranked to a lower grade; on 247)
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I never mind discussing things with someone, though it would be a more enjoyable discussion all around if you're able to just speak about the football without resorting to names or insults (the recourse for someone who obviously can no longer respond to the topic at hand)
As for the rest:
That will be true of almost any class, if 12 -15 players per class played up to a Top250 level (what most Top10 classes have) it would mean that class alone produced that many draft picks...4 years of that would mean a team puts out 50-60 NFL draft picks from one team....that would probably be the most talented team in CFB history
On the flip side, a fair reranking of Fuller would be moving him from a low 4* to a 5* and arguably the #1 WR in his class. Not to mention, it's far, far to early ot really be reranking classes. How do you know how good a RS Frosh OL is really supposed to be? What justification is there really for reranking Nelson or Bars lower? Or a multi-year starter in Elmer?
I understand that you, and others, would like to see more "stars"....but you need to dig a little deeper than that superficial level
"WOW: you're so incorrect - there is no point to trying to enlighten you"
Thats what normally say to you Pers, and then of course you try to make up when you're made to look foolish as usual.
Decker, your argument was sound and made a lot of sense, I think we recruit enough talent to compete with anyone. There are certain positions that we'll need to hit on for sure, but after the bowl game last year, things are looking up!
Thats what normally say to you Pers, and then of course you try to make up when you're made to look foolish as usual.
Decker, your argument was sound and made a lot of sense, I think we recruit enough talent to compete with anyone. There are certain positions that we'll need to hit on for sure, but after the bowl game last year, things are looking up!
For instance, completely judging players (especially ones with major offers) before their Senior Year Seasons to be low level recruits just because Rivals (or any service) slapped a 3* on them when they were 16 is just foolish
Just some of the players who were ranked as 3*'s prior to their senior seasons (just from players under Kelly):
Zach Martin (All-American, 1st Round Pick, 4 Year starter)
Tyler Eifert (All-American, 1st Round Pick)
Harrison Smith (All-American, 1st Round Pick)
Troy Niklas (Multi-Year Starter, 2nd Round Pick)
Prince Shembo (Multi-Year Startrer, 3rd Round Pick)
Will Fuller (Potential All-American, Potential High Round NFL Draft Pick, 3 Year Starter)
Kapron Lewis-Moore (3 Year Stater, 5th Round Pick)
Bennett Jackson (2 Year Starter, 5th Round Pick)
Nick Martin (Potential All-American, Potential High Round NFL Draft Pick)
Everrett Golson (Potential All-American, 2 Year Starter)
Corey Robinson (Potential High Round NFL Draft Pick, Potential Multi-Year Starter)
CJ Prosise (Multi-Year Starter, Potential NFL Draft Pick)
Mathias Farley (4 Year Starter, Potential NFL Draft Pick)
Romeo Okwara (Multi-Year Starter)
Mike McGlinchey (2015 Starter, Potential High Round NFL Draft Pick)
Jarrett Grace (20143Leading Tackler, when health, potential multi-year starter)
Joe Schmidt (2014 Defensive MVP)
Aaron Lynch (Ended up as the coveted "5* STUD" on at DE)
John Montelus (Ended up as the coveted "4* STUD")
etc.
etc.
etc.
It's really not a good policy to read too heavily into star rating before a prospect even starts their final season of high school
When you have prospects with the offer list, upside, and potential of Eichenberg, Bourdeaux, Claypool, Stepherson, etc....it's best to at least see what senior year brings
(and with some real common sense, you'd wait for their upper classmen years of college)
Just some of the players who were ranked as 3*'s prior to their senior seasons (just from players under Kelly):
Zach Martin (All-American, 1st Round Pick, 4 Year starter)
Tyler Eifert (All-American, 1st Round Pick)
Harrison Smith (All-American, 1st Round Pick)
Troy Niklas (Multi-Year Starter, 2nd Round Pick)
Prince Shembo (Multi-Year Startrer, 3rd Round Pick)
Will Fuller (Potential All-American, Potential High Round NFL Draft Pick, 3 Year Starter)
Kapron Lewis-Moore (3 Year Stater, 5th Round Pick)
Bennett Jackson (2 Year Starter, 5th Round Pick)
Nick Martin (Potential All-American, Potential High Round NFL Draft Pick)
Everrett Golson (Potential All-American, 2 Year Starter)
Corey Robinson (Potential High Round NFL Draft Pick, Potential Multi-Year Starter)
CJ Prosise (Multi-Year Starter, Potential NFL Draft Pick)
Mathias Farley (4 Year Starter, Potential NFL Draft Pick)
Romeo Okwara (Multi-Year Starter)
Mike McGlinchey (2015 Starter, Potential High Round NFL Draft Pick)
Jarrett Grace (20143Leading Tackler, when health, potential multi-year starter)
Joe Schmidt (2014 Defensive MVP)
Aaron Lynch (Ended up as the coveted "5* STUD" on at DE)
John Montelus (Ended up as the coveted "4* STUD")
etc.
etc.
etc.
It's really not a good policy to read too heavily into star rating before a prospect even starts their final season of high school
When you have prospects with the offer list, upside, and potential of Eichenberg, Bourdeaux, Claypool, Stepherson, etc....it's best to at least see what senior year brings
(and with some real common sense, you'd wait for their upper classmen years of college)
We need to improve recruiting at DE and FS, quite a bit
Though I like Trumbetti, Bonner, Blankenship, Elliott, and Studstill (hopefully) quite a bit as developmental prospects at those positions
I wish we could have held onto Prentice McKinney and Jhonny Williams, I liked them both a lot as developmental prospects as well
Exactly, and as many have said on here, the offer lists are very telling
Bodizephax
I've posted how many times?
It is time for the nurse to give Perse the blue pills and lock his cage..
do team recruiting rankings matter? you decide.
Champ and preceding 3 yrs. rankings
2014 tOSU (2,4,11)
2013 FSU (6,2,10)
2012 Ala (1,5,1)
2011 Ala (5,1,1)
2010 AU (19,20,7) ... Cam Newton year. (this occurred in 2005 w/ V. Young @ Tex.)
2009 Ala (1,10,11)
2008 UF (1,2,15)
2007 LSU (7,22,2)
2006 UF (15,7,2)
2005 USC* (1,3) Tex (18,14, the V.Y. era)
Rivals was used
(of note: each team champ ex. Cam and VY teams had a 1 or a 2 finish; and ex for Tex, each had a top 10)
The rankings basis are the composite of individual rankings of the players. There is the significance of the "stars".
---------------------------------
as to offer lists:
the problem there is that too many non committable offers are extended.
and, most obviously the 5* prospect has the better offer list;
and an early commitment may stiffle offers
---------------------------------
I stated to you that I considered the final rankings - not Jr. rankings.
your player list had errors.
ex. Montelus was the 2nd rated G nationally
again.: read the piece on 247.
---------------------------------
the question that fits: "why is Pvt. Santiago dead?"
If your contentions are correct: where are the W's? the Bowl appearances and W's?
I have a spread sheet of recruiting and the top teams and champions; I highlight the winner and I can tell you visually: you better be recruiting at a high level to contend. All the lights are high up on the lists.
Offensively ND is there. Defense (DE/DT the needs)
Champ and preceding 3 yrs. rankings
2014 tOSU (2,4,11)
2013 FSU (6,2,10)
2012 Ala (1,5,1)
2011 Ala (5,1,1)
2010 AU (19,20,7) ... Cam Newton year. (this occurred in 2005 w/ V. Young @ Tex.)
2009 Ala (1,10,11)
2008 UF (1,2,15)
2007 LSU (7,22,2)
2006 UF (15,7,2)
2005 USC* (1,3) Tex (18,14, the V.Y. era)
Rivals was used
(of note: each team champ ex. Cam and VY teams had a 1 or a 2 finish; and ex for Tex, each had a top 10)
The rankings basis are the composite of individual rankings of the players. There is the significance of the "stars".
---------------------------------
as to offer lists:
the problem there is that too many non committable offers are extended.
and, most obviously the 5* prospect has the better offer list;
and an early commitment may stiffle offers
---------------------------------
I stated to you that I considered the final rankings - not Jr. rankings.
your player list had errors.
ex. Montelus was the 2nd rated G nationally
again.: read the piece on 247.
---------------------------------
the question that fits: "why is Pvt. Santiago dead?"
If your contentions are correct: where are the W's? the Bowl appearances and W's?
I have a spread sheet of recruiting and the top teams and champions; I highlight the winner and I can tell you visually: you better be recruiting at a high level to contend. All the lights are high up on the lists.
Offensively ND is there. Defense (DE/DT the needs)
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Wait, so now you want to use the team rankings, that you were trying to invalidate earlier in this very thread.
The same team rankings that show that ND is one if the Top10 recruiting trams in CFB over the last 3 years and very clearly recruiting at the same level as teams widely accepted to have the talent needed to compete for championships???
You realize you just backed my point throughout this thread, and totally contradicted yourself...right?
And yes, it can be challenging to just glance at an offer list, because some offer can be "non-commitable"
Additionally, even all commitable offers aren't the same. 2 players might both have offers from a team, but one is far higher up the board and being pursued much heavier.
You have to follow what the coaches are doing to really get the feel for it.
For example, you'd have to know:
1.) Urban Meyer personally took over Eichenberg's recruitment and prioritized him over all other 2016 Ohio recruits.
2.) Elliott was the top priority at DB for Frank Beamer and Bud Foster and they clearly told him so during his initial recruitment (and it was publicly reported)
3.) Perry was wanted badly enough and pursued hard enough that he was allowed to commit to the instate school (Florida) very early...and he still accrued a strong offer lost despite the early commitment
Etc.
Etc.
Etc.
You seem to have half an idea about recruiting, but you're trying very hard to cram facts that just don't fit into your predetermined agenda...and you just don't know enough to fool anyone with that
Additionally, even all commitable offers aren't the same. 2 players might both have offers from a team, but one is far higher up the board and being pursued much heavier.
You have to follow what the coaches are doing to really get the feel for it.
For example, you'd have to know:
1.) Urban Meyer personally took over Eichenberg's recruitment and prioritized him over all other 2016 Ohio recruits.
2.) Elliott was the top priority at DB for Frank Beamer and Bud Foster and they clearly told him so during his initial recruitment (and it was publicly reported)
3.) Perry was wanted badly enough and pursued hard enough that he was allowed to commit to the instate school (Florida) very early...and he still accrued a strong offer lost despite the early commitment
Etc.
Etc.
Etc.
You seem to have half an idea about recruiting, but you're trying very hard to cram facts that just don't fit into your predetermined agenda...and you just don't know enough to fool anyone with that
^ Couldn't agree more. Marginal recruiting + marginal development and coaching = marginal results (or, what has been reality, a marginal program).
do you follow this board?
I have always discussed team recruiting and the # of elite (5.9> commits) as the way to determine contendion for the playoffs! "you been sick or out of the country?"
I have posted this info previously!
(btw: you used ND's incoming class and that is rediculous as they are not on campus)
the class you should include was ranked 20; and the 3rd ranked class, as noted and re-ranked
is proving to be very very over-rated.
Methodology: you average 3 years - that is where you are wrong - what if a team was rated 123 and 1 ?
That is where your contention is foolish. You concept is ridiculous; not to even bring up that there were 4 teams at your #8!.
FYI : 247 had ND 18,6,12; using your distorted method that comes to 12th
The evidence demands verdict: by you contention ND should have been contending and winning major bowls; not finishing 8-4!
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again - you have decided your point of view and look for something that supports it.
I just made a historical list and look at the data; not as a fan, but to see patterns or tendencies.
-------------------------------------
as to supporting your argument, see an earlier post that started this; I have been consistant
"tOSU, FSU, and Ala from 2012-2014 recruited 7,6,6 DL RR 5.9 or better
ND recruited 1
When your team is losing more, you cannot make the argument the you have both better talent AND better coaching, unless your smoking what GBryant is!"
team rankings are based upon the individual rankings! oye!
I just made a historical list and look at the data; not as a fan, but to see patterns or tendencies.
-------------------------------------
as to supporting your argument, see an earlier post that started this; I have been consistant
"tOSU, FSU, and Ala from 2012-2014 recruited 7,6,6 DL RR 5.9 or better
ND recruited 1
When your team is losing more, you cannot make the argument the you have both better talent AND better coaching, unless your smoking what GBryant is!"
team rankings are based upon the individual rankings! oye!
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BTW:
IF ND were to win the NC in 2015 the stat would be
2015 ND (20,3,11)
so you can compare that to the prior winners stats and guess at the probablity of this occurance.
It would take a superstar to have a Cam or VY or TE'O type year. Jaylon would be a possibility.
(remember that the 3rd ranked class was ranked with EV, a 5 star, as part of it and he never enrolled; that deletion would significantly alter the #3 ranking; remeber this exercise is to ascertain the potential for ND to contend, so whether it happens to other teams is immaterial. And in that class it did not happen to any team higher ranked than ND)
IF ND were to win the NC in 2015 the stat would be
2015 ND (20,3,11)
so you can compare that to the prior winners stats and guess at the probablity of this occurance.
It would take a superstar to have a Cam or VY or TE'O type year. Jaylon would be a possibility.
(remember that the 3rd ranked class was ranked with EV, a 5 star, as part of it and he never enrolled; that deletion would significantly alter the #3 ranking; remeber this exercise is to ascertain the potential for ND to contend, so whether it happens to other teams is immaterial. And in that class it did not happen to any team higher ranked than ND)
^ was still reading other sites and information as I went. I use actual information rather than raw emotion.
You're very confused.....which is obvious
I'm not talking about past Notre Dame teams!
Because this thread is focused on future recruits and recruiting impact on future seasons, previous seasons have literally no meaning to it. (Thus, you sauing "8-5 Enough Said!" over and over just shows how confused you are)
Because of that, the classes that you want to look at are the classes that will impact future seasons (the 2012 class will only impact future seasons as 5trh year senior on the 2016 season....really not worth including)
So yes, I'm looking at the correct classes for a discussion of the impact of recruiting on the future......and evreything you've said throughout this entire thread is totally meaningless
Beyond that, I love that you can't manage to wrap your mind around the fact that MANY TEAMS recruit at similar levels and thus it's not only possible but a virtual certainty that several teams should receive equal rankings for their recruiting over time......so having 4 teams at an average of 8th is COMPLETELY FINE
Once you've managed to wrap your min around these very basic facts, let me know......we can continue to look at the furhter points from
There you need catch up before we try to continue
If you actually go and recalculate the class without EV in it, it's still #3.............just to toss a another fact in the way of the constant BS you're making up and throwing at the wall
You really don't get the point of this thread, do you?
It's a thread about 2016+ recruiting, and by definition therefore has no bearing on the 2015 season.........another totally irrelevant comment
Beyond that, whether or not I personally predict ND into the playoffs in any given year does not determine whether or not they have recruited the talent necessary to potentially compete for it
That would be like saying that just because TCU got left out of the playoffs in 2014, they hadn't recruited the talent necessary to compete for it (which they obviously had done, and easily could have been included in the playoffs with a different arbitrary committee decision on the exact same team)
Just kidding with you Perse. I actually like you but you're letting people get you too worked up.
Whatever you say big guy
You're the one commenting on past teams in a thread about the 2016 recruiting class....it's not hard to see who doesn't understand
Bodizephax
I've posted how many times?
We have so much depth that we could nearly redshirt the entire 2015 class (excluding maybe Jones, Tillery, Coney,Yoon). Need patience on the 2016 class. Especially with a potentially successful season upcoming.
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