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Tangible Changes The Defense Should Make

IrishInOntario

I've posted how many times?
Feb 21, 2009
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It's easy for us to all sit here and scream "fire Van Gorder" and "this defense sucks", but Brian Kelly has made it clear that he isn't likely the kind of guy who is going to fire a DC mid year and he's also not going to take over thw defensive room and create a rift in the structure of the team.

With that said, if we're going to both, we should also offer (to each other) tangible and practical solutions to some of the defenses problems. It's obvious that this defense is not going to get to the point of being very good this year, but it the goal as coaches will be to make small improvements each week, to keep teaching, keep the kids together and reach the point of respectability. How can that be achieved?

It was good to hear Brian Kelly talk about taking measures to improve tackling this week. It shows that the staff is aware of at least one of what I believe are 3 major issues. For that reason, I'm not going to offer up any tackling suggestions. Instead I'm going to focus on two other areas that actually coincide with each other.

1). The first thing I'm doing is coming to the reality that Perse has been talking about. This team has no ready-to-play pass rushers at this point. 4 of the 5 WDE' s that ND has recruited in the last 3 cycles are no longer with the team and it's evident that Andrew Trumbetti is no more than a decent rotational player. I believe that Julian Okwara is going to be a good one, but folks, he's 230lbs right now and just not physically strong enough to beat a tackle even if he can bend the edge. Daelin Hates may also turn out to be a good pass rusher in time, because he's an exceptional athlete. However, at this point he's very raw and inexperienced as a football player. The other guy that I think there is a very good chance will grow into a WDE is young Mr. Jones, but like Okwara, he's not yet there physically... These are good football players guys, it's simply a case where they're ready as true freshman. It's very rare to find a guy like Aaron Lynch, who is a 6'5, 275lb freshman, ready to go from day one. That's why good football teams like Michigan State and Stanford, who ND's talent is more similar to than the likes of Ohio State or Alabama, don't play those young guys. They're not ready. They play as many older, experienced guys as they can. Would pass rush be as much of a problem if Kolin Hill, Jhonathan Williams, Bo Wallace, etc, etc were on the roster as the staff expected?... Probably not. So what can be done?

Not every team has great pass rushers in the form of speed rushers and at this point ND needs to realize that they fit into that group of teams. Luckily (ask Stanford) there is more than one way to skin a cat without reinventing the entirety of your scheme, or finding new players. What ND does have is capable "powers players". Guys that can push the pocket and create disruption. I'd like to see Van Gorder scrap the zone blitzes and stop putting his young secondary in tough spots. The best way to help a young secondary (on a team devoid of ready-to-go speed rushers) is to decrease their area of responsibility and give them help. Not so ironically, that coincides with a power rushing scheme. I'd like to see ND play much more 3-down in passing situations, with the likes of Isaac Rochell, Jarron Jones, Jerry Tillery, Daniel Cage, Jay Hayes and Jonathan Bonner as the down lineman, power rushing up the field. I'd play James Onwualu and Daelin Hayes in rotation as a stand up player who could be the 4th rusher or guy who was going to drop into that coverage I'd drop 7 and 8 on every passing down and make teams nickel-and-done me down the field with precision passing. Behind that front 3-4, I'd keep Nyles Morgan at Mike James Onwualu / Daelin Hayes as the other backer, Drue Tranquil as the big nickel as the flex defender on the edge of the box in place of a WILL, with a 5 man secondary of Luke, Studstill, Elliot / Sebastien Coleman / Vaughn and Love. I'd play no more than 4 coverages I passing situations. Cover 1 if I wanted to bring pressure. Cover 2 And Cover 4 as my core coverages to protect my corners and the seems of my defense. Give up the middle of the field as the easiest area to attack, with Morgan dropping into middle during in 8 man drop situations and rally to the ball. Make the opponent beat you 7-10 yards at a time, rather than ripping off big plays over your head and down the sidelines. My fourth coverage would be a single exotic look that you added no more than ONE twist too every week. Keeo it simple and let the good athletes in ND's secondary lineup with simples assignments that keeps the thinking out of it. ND is too young and lacks elite athletes at individual positions to play so much sting and cover 3. We shouldn't see freshman dropping into coverage every 3rd play, nor should we see so many buzzing linebackers, or post snap rotation on the backend... Make teams beat your athletes with theirs. Don't outhink yourself and and lead your young kids into situations they can't handle. Line up and use the skill sets you have on your roster.

2). I already talked about how I would scale the defense back to 3 basic coverages and drop 7 and 8 players on every passing down, because sending 5-6 Is a waste of coverage and potentially coverage sacks, if you don't have the players to get there. But how do you get to those passing situations without getting the ball down your throat. The same principles apply. Get Trumbetti off the field, the field and play a rotation of Rochell, Bonner, Hates, Tillery, Jones and Cage on 1st down. This is where yoy can be aggressive. I'd run blitz on nearly every play (like MSU did to us) and get Morgan, Onwualu and Coney moving and pre snap, and penetrating. Play cover 2 behind them, get passive on the back end and don't have the ball thrown over your head. If you smother their run game on 1st down, and create more predictable passing situations, it's easier to tighten down coverage, even in more passive schemes.... I'm telling you, it's hard to pass against teams that run blitz you to death and drop into Mac coveraes on middle and long distance downs. It requires a QB to play fairly mistake free and thread the needle into tight windows. It's much easier for freshman to accomplish, knowing that they have help. And swarming and rallying to the ball is a much more college friendly mindset than, BVG's pro style "everyone is by themselves and needs to operate and execute perfectly for this scheme to work" mentality. College kids like playing together and for each other. They'll rally to each other's aid and have each other's backs. Coach them into a scheme that promotes and even provokes that.

Understand who you are. Ever heard of a coverage sack. Drop 7 and 8, make the QB hold the ball an extra second or two to get a receiver open in a hole and maybe Rochell, Bonner or Hayes get home. I'm tired of watching our down hill style of linebackers probing and scraping on on obvious run downs, instead of penetrating and block destructing with predetermined downhill attack angles. I don't want to see Cole Luke forced into another decision when a team runs a simple 2-vertical concept at him and the safety is shaded so far to the other side of the field that he can't come over to help. If ND is simply in a more even coverage there, the safety picks up the slot receiver as he vacates onwualu's zone and Luke squeezes the receiver down the sidelines

Just a couple simple thoughts. Writing on ny phone, so my apologies if there are some issues with grammar or autocorrect.

Cheers!
 
It's easy for us to all sit here and scream "fire Van Gorder" and "this defense sucks", but Brian Kelly has made it clear that he isn't likely the kind of guy who is going to fire a DC mid year and he's also not going to take over thw defensive room and create a rift in the structure of the team.

With that said, if we're going to both, we should also offer (to each other) tangible and practical solutions to some of the defenses problems. It's obvious that this defense is not going to get to the point of being very good this year, but it the goal as coaches will be to make small improvements each week, to keep teaching, keep the kids together and reach the point of respectability. How can that be achieved?

It was good to hear Brian Kelly talk about taking measures to improve tackling this week. It shows that the staff is aware of at least one of what I believe are 3 major issues. For that reason, I'm not going to offer up any tackling suggestions. Instead I'm going to focus on two other areas that actually coincide with each other.

1). The first thing I'm doing is coming to the reality that Perse has been talking about. This team has no ready-to-play pass rushers at this point. 4 of the 5 WDE' s that ND has recruited in the last 3 cycles are no longer with the team and it's evident that Andrew Trumbetti is no more than a decent rotational player. I believe that Julian Okwara is going to be a good one, but folks, he's 230lbs right now and just not physically strong enough to beat a tackle even if he can bend the edge. Daelin Hates may also turn out to be a good pass rusher in time, because he's an exceptional athlete. However, at this point he's very raw and inexperienced as a football player. The other guy that I think there is a very good chance will grow into a WDE is young Mr. Jones, but like Okwara, he's not yet there physically... These are good football players guys, it's simply a case where they're ready as true freshman. It's very rare to find a guy like Aaron Lynch, who is a 6'5, 275lb freshman, ready to go from day one. That's why good football teams like Michigan State and Stanford, who ND's talent is more similar to than the likes of Ohio State or Alabama, don't play those young guys. They're not ready. They play as many older, experienced guys as they can. Would pass rush be as much of a problem if Kolin Hill, Jhonathan Williams, Bo Wallace, etc, etc were on the roster as the staff expected?... Probably not. So what can be done?

Not every team has great pass rushers in the form of speed rushers and at this point ND needs to realize that they fit into that group of teams. Luckily (ask Stanford) there is more than one way to skin a cat without reinventing the entirety of your scheme, or finding new players. What ND does have is capable "powers players". Guys that can push the pocket and create disruption. I'd like to see Van Gorder scrap the zone blitzes and stop putting his young secondary in tough spots. The best way to help a young secondary (on a team devoid of ready-to-go speed rushers) is to decrease their area of responsibility and give them help. Not so ironically, that coincides with a power rushing scheme. I'd like to see ND play much more 3-down in passing situations, with the likes of Isaac Rochell, Jarron Jones, Jerry Tillery, Daniel Cage, Jay Hayes and Jonathan Bonner as the down lineman, power rushing up the field. I'd play James Onwualu and Daelin Hayes in rotation as a stand up player who could be the 4th rusher or guy who was going to drop into that coverage I'd drop 7 and 8 on every passing down and make teams nickel-and-done me down the field with precision passing. Behind that front 3-4, I'd keep Nyles Morgan at Mike James Onwualu / Daelin Hayes as the other backer, Drue Tranquil as the big nickel as the flex defender on the edge of the box in place of a WILL, with a 5 man secondary of Luke, Studstill, Elliot / Sebastien Coleman / Vaughn and Love. I'd play no more than 4 coverages I passing situations. Cover 1 if I wanted to bring pressure. Cover 2 And Cover 4 as my core coverages to protect my corners and the seems of my defense. Give up the middle of the field as the easiest area to attack, with Morgan dropping into middle during in 8 man drop situations and rally to the ball. Make the opponent beat you 7-10 yards at a time, rather than ripping off big plays over your head and down the sidelines. My fourth coverage would be a single exotic look that you added no more than ONE twist too every week. Keeo it simple and let the good athletes in ND's secondary lineup with simples assignments that keeps the thinking out of it. ND is too young and lacks elite athletes at individual positions to play so much sting and cover 3. We shouldn't see freshman dropping into coverage every 3rd play, nor should we see so many buzzing linebackers, or post snap rotation on the backend... Make teams beat your athletes with theirs. Don't outhink yourself and and lead your young kids into situations they can't handle. Line up and use the skill sets you have on your roster.

2). I already talked about how I would scale the defense back to 3 basic coverages and drop 7 and 8 players on every passing down, because sending 5-6 Is a waste of coverage and potentially coverage sacks, if you don't have the players to get there. But how do you get to those passing situations without getting the ball down your throat. The same principles apply. Get Trumbetti off the field, the field and play a rotation of Rochell, Bonner, Hates, Tillery, Jones and Cage on 1st down. This is where yoy can be aggressive. I'd run blitz on nearly every play (like MSU did to us) and get Morgan, Onwualu and Coney moving and pre snap, and penetrating. Play cover 2 behind them, get passive on the back end and don't have the ball thrown over your head. If you smother their run game on 1st down, and create more predictable passing situations, it's easier to tighten down coverage, even in more passive schemes.... I'm telling you, it's hard to pass against teams that run blitz you to death and drop into Mac coveraes on middle and long distance downs. It requires a QB to play fairly mistake free and thread the needle into tight windows. It's much easier for freshman to accomplish, knowing that they have help. And swarming and rallying to the ball is a much more college friendly mindset than, BVG's pro style "everyone is by themselves and needs to operate and execute perfectly for this scheme to work" mentality. College kids like playing together and for each other. They'll rally to each other's aid and have each other's backs. Coach them into a scheme that promotes and even provokes that.

Understand who you are. Ever heard of a coverage sack. Drop 7 and 8, make the QB hold the ball an extra second or two to get a receiver open in a hole and maybe Rochell, Bonner or Hayes get home. I'm tired of watching our down hill style of linebackers probing and scraping on on obvious run downs, instead of penetrating and block destructing with predetermined downhill attack angles. I don't want to see Cole Luke forced into another decision when a team runs a simple 2-vertical concept at him and the safety is shaded so far to the other side of the field that he can't come over to help. If ND is simply in a more even coverage there, the safety picks up the slot receiver as he vacates onwualu's zone and Luke squeezes the receiver down the sidelines

Just a couple simple thoughts. Writing on ny phone, so my apologies if there are some issues with grammar or autocorrect.

Cheers!

The defense was on the field for 37:57 minutes versus msu.... Unreal....
 
It's easy for us to all sit here and scream "
Cheers!


IIO,

Assuming what you are saying is the best option. What is the likelihood of the coaching staff implementing a plan like this or a similar one. I wonder.

The comments essentially stating we do not have the athletes to perform an effective pass rush or they are not physically ready seems to be right on target. So your assessment seems very logical to me. The problem when delegating to a manager who may be set in his ways ... well it may be an irresistible force to go with the scheme he envision and not perform the scheme that meets the talent level,
 
It's easy for us to all sit here and scream "fire Van Gorder" and "this defense sucks", but Brian Kelly has made it clear that he isn't likely the kind of guy who is going to fire a DC mid year and he's also not going to take over thw defensive room and create a rift in the structure of the team.

With that said, if we're going to both, we should also offer (to each other) tangible and practical solutions to some of the defenses problems. It's obvious that this defense is not going to get to the point of being very good this year, but it the goal as coaches will be to make small improvements each week, to keep teaching, keep the kids together and reach the point of respectability. How can that be achieved?

It was good to hear Brian Kelly talk about taking measures to improve tackling this week. It shows that the staff is aware of at least one of what I believe are 3 major issues. For that reason, I'm not going to offer up any tackling suggestions. Instead I'm going to focus on two other areas that actually coincide with each other.

1). The first thing I'm doing is coming to the reality that Perse has been talking about. This team has no ready-to-play pass rushers at this point. 4 of the 5 WDE' s that ND has recruited in the last 3 cycles are no longer with the team and it's evident that Andrew Trumbetti is no more than a decent rotational player. I believe that Julian Okwara is going to be a good one, but folks, he's 230lbs right now and just not physically strong enough to beat a tackle even if he can bend the edge. Daelin Hates may also turn out to be a good pass rusher in time, because he's an exceptional athlete. However, at this point he's very raw and inexperienced as a football player. The other guy that I think there is a very good chance will grow into a WDE is young Mr. Jones, but like Okwara, he's not yet there physically... These are good football players guys, it's simply a case where they're ready as true freshman. It's very rare to find a guy like Aaron Lynch, who is a 6'5, 275lb freshman, ready to go from day one. That's why good football teams like Michigan State and Stanford, who ND's talent is more similar to than the likes of Ohio State or Alabama, don't play those young guys. They're not ready. They play as many older, experienced guys as they can. Would pass rush be as much of a problem if Kolin Hill, Jhonathan Williams, Bo Wallace, etc, etc were on the roster as the staff expected?... Probably not. So what can be done?

Not every team has great pass rushers in the form of speed rushers and at this point ND needs to realize that they fit into that group of teams. Luckily (ask Stanford) there is more than one way to skin a cat without reinventing the entirety of your scheme, or finding new players. What ND does have is capable "powers players". Guys that can push the pocket and create disruption. I'd like to see Van Gorder scrap the zone blitzes and stop putting his young secondary in tough spots. The best way to help a young secondary (on a team devoid of ready-to-go speed rushers) is to decrease their area of responsibility and give them help. Not so ironically, that coincides with a power rushing scheme. I'd like to see ND play much more 3-down in passing situations, with the likes of Isaac Rochell, Jarron Jones, Jerry Tillery, Daniel Cage, Jay Hayes and Jonathan Bonner as the down lineman, power rushing up the field. I'd play James Onwualu and Daelin Hayes in rotation as a stand up player who could be the 4th rusher or guy who was going to drop into that coverage I'd drop 7 and 8 on every passing down and make teams nickel-and-done me down the field with precision passing. Behind that front 3-4, I'd keep Nyles Morgan at Mike James Onwualu / Daelin Hayes as the other backer, Drue Tranquil as the big nickel as the flex defender on the edge of the box in place of a WILL, with a 5 man secondary of Luke, Studstill, Elliot / Sebastien Coleman / Vaughn and Love. I'd play no more than 4 coverages I passing situations. Cover 1 if I wanted to bring pressure. Cover 2 And Cover 4 as my core coverages to protect my corners and the seems of my defense. Give up the middle of the field as the easiest area to attack, with Morgan dropping into middle during in 8 man drop situations and rally to the ball. Make the opponent beat you 7-10 yards at a time, rather than ripping off big plays over your head and down the sidelines. My fourth coverage would be a single exotic look that you added no more than ONE twist too every week. Keeo it simple and let the good athletes in ND's secondary lineup with simples assignments that keeps the thinking out of it. ND is too young and lacks elite athletes at individual positions to play so much sting and cover 3. We shouldn't see freshman dropping into coverage every 3rd play, nor should we see so many buzzing linebackers, or post snap rotation on the backend... Make teams beat your athletes with theirs. Don't outhink yourself and and lead your young kids into situations they can't handle. Line up and use the skill sets you have on your roster.

2). I already talked about how I would scale the defense back to 3 basic coverages and drop 7 and 8 players on every passing down, because sending 5-6 Is a waste of coverage and potentially coverage sacks, if you don't have the players to get there. But how do you get to those passing situations without getting the ball down your throat. The same principles apply. Get Trumbetti off the field, the field and play a rotation of Rochell, Bonner, Hates, Tillery, Jones and Cage on 1st down. This is where yoy can be aggressive. I'd run blitz on nearly every play (like MSU did to us) and get Morgan, Onwualu and Coney moving and pre snap, and penetrating. Play cover 2 behind them, get passive on the back end and don't have the ball thrown over your head. If you smother their run game on 1st down, and create more predictable passing situations, it's easier to tighten down coverage, even in more passive schemes.... I'm telling you, it's hard to pass against teams that run blitz you to death and drop into Mac coveraes on middle and long distance downs. It requires a QB to play fairly mistake free and thread the needle into tight windows. It's much easier for freshman to accomplish, knowing that they have help. And swarming and rallying to the ball is a much more college friendly mindset than, BVG's pro style "everyone is by themselves and needs to operate and execute perfectly for this scheme to work" mentality. College kids like playing together and for each other. They'll rally to each other's aid and have each other's backs. Coach them into a scheme that promotes and even provokes that.

Understand who you are. Ever heard of a coverage sack. Drop 7 and 8, make the QB hold the ball an extra second or two to get a receiver open in a hole and maybe Rochell, Bonner or Hayes get home. I'm tired of watching our down hill style of linebackers probing and scraping on on obvious run downs, instead of penetrating and block destructing with predetermined downhill attack angles. I don't want to see Cole Luke forced into another decision when a team runs a simple 2-vertical concept at him and the safety is shaded so far to the other side of the field that he can't come over to help. If ND is simply in a more even coverage there, the safety picks up the slot receiver as he vacates onwualu's zone and Luke squeezes the receiver down the sidelines

Just a couple simple thoughts. Writing on ny phone, so my apologies if there are some issues with grammar or autocorrect.

Cheers!
Agree with most of ideas. I was screaming for ND to start run blitzing in the MSU game. The siting back, diagnosing the play, engaging with the blocker and then finally touching the ballcarrier(touching, not necessarily tackling) after 4-5 yards was killing ND. ND's inability to stop the run is what's killing them the most, because they're seeing fewer third downs and when they do see third down it's shorter. I really thought ND's defense was going to be solid against the run this year, but they are terrible. And I don't see it being a lack of talent, but poor scheming. Just watch how MSU front 7 played ND's run game and their LBs were shooting for the RB every play. It was smart disciplined football, as the beat the blocker to the line scrimmage, but patiently wait to position themselves to tackle the ballcarrier.

I think we all knew that pass rush was going to be a concern this year. Even when ND blitzes and someone is in good position to get a sack, they're still running like a bat outta hell and all the QB literally has to do is slide outta the way to avoid the sack. Kelly talked about speed to power tackling, which is just basic football, when you have to breakdown as you approach the QB or ball carrier. I don't normally like 3 down rushes, but in this case it's necessary, as the DBs just aren't good enough to cover WRs one-on-one. However, I do think that the DBs could be much better. Fundamentally they are not very sound and put themselves in poor positions. Coleman for example, when he got burnt by John Burt in the Texas game, was pressing, but made little, if not zero contact, just allowing Burt to run free downfield. Unless Coleman has 4.2 speed, of course he's going to get burnt. I'm also tired of DBs getting scared and playing 8 yards off their man in third and short/redone situations allowing WRs to get a quick catch and have space to run. Anyway, there's plenty of room for improvement, but like IIO is saying, they just gotta get back to the basic fundmental play and scheme and go from there. I can't imagine there's a lot of confidence/trust with the players and coaches right now. They need to prove to themselves that they can be an effective group.
 
while a better game plan, better excution would certainly help matters, my best guess is it would just bring to light that defensively there is talent gap between ND and the usual top playoff contenders and that is just exacerbated by the poor coaching performances.
a clusterf'ing!
 
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IIO, your recommendation doesn't seem radically different than the 3-3-5 we used against Texas, and their running killed us; and we still got beat deep on a regular basis. We played much better against Texas when they went to the four man front, as we were able to penetrate and make some stops in the backfield. I do recognize the different utilization of the players you are suggesting, and generally agree. Personally, I would like to see Hayes and Jones playing WDE in all passing downs at a minimum. The balance is to achieve weekly improvement from all these young guys without getting killed and dejected, all pointing to next year. Appreciate your post and acknowledge you know a hell of a lot more about the intricacies of football than I do, but I think our failure to stop the running game is hurting us as much or more than our pathetic pass defense; and it seems to me your suggestions exacerbate this. What am I missing here?
 
IIO, your recommendation doesn't seem radically different than the 3-3-5 we used against Texas, and their running killed us; and we still got beat deep on a regular basis. We played much better against Texas when they went to the four man front, as we were able to penetrate and make some stops in the backfield. I do recognize the different utilization of the players you are suggesting, and generally agree. Personally, I would like to see Hayes and Jones playing WDE in all passing downs at a minimum. The balance is to achieve weekly improvement from all these young guys without getting killed and dejected, all pointing to next year. Appreciate your post and acknowledge you know a hell of a lot more about the intricacies of football than I do, but I think our failure to stop the running game is hurting us as much or more than our pathetic pass defense; and it seems to me your suggestions exacerbate this. What am I missing here?
The 3-3-5 we used vs Texas was a lot of trumbetti, Rochelle , and Tillery or cage. That's not a run stuffing group, especially with martini overtop trumbetti, and onwualu on the line as the fourth occasionally.
 
Personnel wise.
Trumbetti is way to light to play anymore at all. 270- he was way more effective. Whatever he weighs now isn't working at all. Not worth playing him at all.
Jay Hayes needs to play more.
Daniel Cage needs to play more.
Tillery great first half vs MSU. Rest of the season? Nowhere.

I think for the future they need to look at Boykin and Justin Brent at linebacker.
Brent is a great athlete and I like Boykin's size and he's not going to overtake Sanders, Claypool and EQ at receiver.
Hayes is a converted linebacker so he's learning.
He's coming in way high on his edge pass rushes and isn't strong enough at this point but his game experience is valuable and shows good flashes.
Hopefully, he grows into a pass rushing threat at DE
Cole Luke has been and will be targeted deep by good teams. He's not an NFL corner. Never leave him on an island. Urban Meyer torched Luke. All good coaches throw on him all day.
Like you said, simply the defense. Keep the secondary deep and don't give up big plays.

No excuses for BVG, BK and Jack.
 
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