Recruiting Is not Great Right Now

[IrishInOntario]

First of all, I'm not going full chicken little here and making ridiculous claims about ND's 2018 class being bad. It's a really solid class right now, unfortunately, the debacle from 2017 is still hurting ND on the trail, and despite landing some difference makers (especially on defense), this class still has some major holes and ND isn't winning any recruiting battles right now, despite the hot start. May be a win vs USC would get the attention of some guys, but as it stands with the top targets still on ND's board...

Thomas Booker: Going to Stanford.
Jayson Oweh: Penn State or Ohio State
Joseph Ossai: Texas
Kyler Gordon: Washington, Stanford, ND
Kalon Gervin: MSU or Oklahoma
Houston Griffith: Florida State
Julius Irvin: Washington, USC, ND
Nick Petit Frere: Alabama or Florida
Cade Mays: Tennessee, Alabama, ND?
Amon-Ra St.Brown: USC
Lawrence Keys: LSU, Houston, ND
Geordon Porter: Washington, ND, Oregon
Alontae Taylor: SEC, ND?

We're starting to see some new names pop up as well. Guys committed to middle of the pack P5 schools or guys with solid, but unspectacular offer lists. Expect a few more names to pop up as well, or maybe an old name to come back into the picture (Devin O'Rourke?)...

Still a lot of time for ND to close strong, but as it sits right now, a class that could be top 5 if things go the right way, is trending more towards the 10-12 range, again.

Need to land a couple difference makers. 1 elite OL, 2 quality corners, 1 quality WDE and a quality 3rd WR... At the very least.

 

[gautrp]

First of all, I'm not going full chicken little here and making ridiculous claims about ND's 2018 class being bad. It's a really solid class right now, unfortunately, the debacle from 2017 is still hurting ND on the trail, and despite landing some difference makers (especially on defense), this class still has some major holes and ND isn't winning any recruiting battles right now, despite the hot start. May be a win vs USC would get the attention of some guys, but as it stands with the top targets still on ND's board...

Thomas Booker: Going to Stanford.
Jayson Oweh: Penn State or Ohio State
Joseph Ossai: Texas
Kyler Gordon: Washington, Stanford, ND
Kalon Gervin: MSU or Oklahoma
Houston Griffith: Florida State
Julius Irvin: Washington, USC, ND
Nick Petit Frere: Alabama or Florida
Cade Mays: Tennessee, Alabama, ND?
Amon-Ra St.Brown: USC
Lawrence Keys: LSU, Houston, ND
Geordon Porter: Washington, ND, Oregon
Alontae Taylor: SEC, ND?

We're starting to see some new names pop up as well. Guys committed to middle of the pack P5 schools or guys with solid, but unspectacular offer lists. Expect a few more names to pop up as well, or maybe an old name to come back into the picture (Devin O'Rourke?)...

Still a lot of time for ND to close strong, but as it sits right now, a class that could be top 5 if things go the right way, is trending more towards the 10-12 range, again.

Need to land a couple difference makers. 1 elite OL, 2 quality corners, 1 quality WDE and a quality 3rd WR... At the very least.

Yep. They need help on the OL, WR, and especially the defensive backs. And whatever they can get for the defensive line is a bonus.

 

[ftnfan62]

Don't profess to follow this like IIO but top 10 now, thought I heard BK say we are losing 10 so probably being very selective.

Keep winning, pick up 2-3 top studs and set up for 19. Feels like we are sitting pretty.

 

[binhamin]

I don't see it as going chicken little by saying this class needs corners. If there is a huge whiff on corners this year, there will be problems with recruiting corners next year. The goal of recruiting should be to get the best player and not have to need them to start immediately, but if they are the best, let them start. Too often as of late players are forced to come in and have to play immediately to shore up depth issues. This definitely needs to be corrected.

 

[Telx1]

First of all, I'm not going full chicken little here and making ridiculous claims about ND's 2018 class being bad. It's a really solid class right now, unfortunately, the debacle from 2017 is still hurting ND on the trail, and despite landing some difference makers (especially on defense), this class still has some major holes and ND isn't winning any recruiting battles right now, despite the hot start. May be a win vs USC would get the attention of some guys, but as it stands with the top targets still on ND's board...

Thomas Booker: Going to Stanford.
Jayson Oweh: Penn State or Ohio State
Joseph Ossai: Texas
Kyler Gordon: Washington, Stanford, ND
Kalon Gervin: MSU or Oklahoma
Houston Griffith: Florida State
Julius Irvin: Washington, USC, ND
Nick Petit Frere: Alabama or Florida
Cade Mays: Tennessee, Alabama, ND?
Amon-Ra St.Brown: USC
Lawrence Keys: LSU, Houston, ND
Geordon Porter: Washington, ND, Oregon
Alontae Taylor: SEC, ND?

We're starting to see some new names pop up as well. Guys committed to middle of the pack P5 schools or guys with solid, but unspectacular offer lists. Expect a few more names to pop up as well, or maybe an old name to come back into the picture (Devin O'Rourke?)...

Still a lot of time for ND to close strong, but as it sits right now, a class that could be top 5 if things go the right way, is trending more towards the 10-12 range, again.

Need to land a couple difference makers. 1 elite OL, 2 quality corners, 1 quality WDE and a quality 3rd WR... At the very least.

Agree IIO, it’s been a bad week in terms of targeted recruits rejecting ND. One DE and two corners are huge positions of need, and not sure we land another DE without some new names emerging. The debacle at Tenn and other programs underperforming will open up opportunities to flip guys, but that’s hardly a reliable recruiting strategy. For corners, I would add Bracy and Wilkins to your list, as they still express interest and plan to visit. Gordon and one of these two and a flip of Taylor from Tenn would be a great finish at this point.

Harry visited Petit Frere this week, and he still plans an OV and he is still our number one OL target, so not sure why you show him not interested.

But, we have no obvious recruitment momentum right now, and we need some good news on this front.

 

[deadirishpoet]

It's not a even playing field , but recruiting has finished well for the most part.
Quality O linemen are a nessessity every year, but DBs are a premium.

 

[iwish]

Let's also not forget that we didn't "miss" on a few of them - some couldn't get in apparently due to grades. Can't exactly hold the coaching staff responsible for that.

 

[zonairish]

I am not too worried. 10-12 rank is not bad. However, if Bodi is right and we win out I bet we get a couple hi-end recruits at the last minute

 

[IrishInOntario]

Agree IIO, it’s been a bad week in terms of targeted recruits rejecting ND. One DE and two corners are huge positions of need, and not sure we land another DE without some new names emerging. The debacle at Tenn and other programs underperforming will open up opportunities to flip guys, but that’s hardly a reliable recruiting strategy. For corners, I would add Bracy and Wilkins to your list, as they still express interest and plan to visit. Gordon and one of these two and a flip of Taylor from Tenn would be a great finish at this point.

Harry visited Petit Frere this week, and he still plans an OV and he is still our number one OL target, so not sure why you show him not interested.

But, we have no obvious recruitment momentum right now, and we need some good news on this front.

Bracy and Wilkins are definitely on the list, I just don't have them rated as highly as the guys I listed. Conley, Smith, etc would also be on that list as well.

Although, I do think Bracy could bring a similar play style to the table as Shaun Crawford. Nickel corner to cover the slot receiver.

 

[deadirishpoet]

Let's also not forget that we didn't "miss" on a few of them - some couldn't get in apparently due to grades. Can't exactly hold the coaching staff responsible for that.

Like I said it's not an even playing field

 

[hoopsstar12]

If we keep winning some will flip to us. Plus there will be coaching changes at other schools which will create opportunities. There is a long way to go. Just win and look good doing it. If a defensive player doesnt want to play for Elko then they are an idiot.

 

[impossibilityofreason1]

Same story every year.

 

[IrishInOntario]

Same story every year.

All is not lost. We simply need a few to bounce our way. If ND keeps winning and can pull a Cade Mays, Kyler Gordon, Tariq Bracy, Julius Irvin, Lawrence Keys type of finish and manage to wrestle away a WDE while they're at it, that would be an excellent finish to a top 10 class.

I'm simply mentioning where we are at right now. There are a lot of moving pieces in recruiting and 4.5 months to go. Things change quickly. ND can put all of its focus on about 20 guys right now and try to finish down the stretch.

 

[REMND]

This is what I want from IIO's list except I believe we need 3 CBs.

"Need to land a couple difference makers. 1 elite OL, 2 quality corners, 1 quality WDE and a quality 3rd WR... At the very least."

Our roster is pretty young and well stocked unless we lose too many departing before their eligibility expires. I have already assumed that we lose Adams and Nelson. I have heard some mention Mustipher and JHayes as well though.

We need 5 star types to get us over the edge. We have 16 commits now.

For OL, I want Taimani, Mays or Petite Frere.
For CB, Bracy, Gordon and Taylor. Taylor's position flexibility is a big plus.
For WR, Cota. Again his position flexibility is a big plus. I think most want a speedy punt returner type but Cota has a 4.53 and is 6'3.5". I think McIntosh, Crawford, Armstrong, Holmes, Young and maybe Pride can be our punt/kickoff returner.

WDE, we need to get some creative offers out there like we did with Taylor. We just don't lead with either Ossai or Oweh. We only have 3 WDEs next year. If we strike out, we might have to end up beefing up a Buck or using an SDE there. Not good.

 

[impossibilityofreason1]

All is not lost. We simply need a few to bounce our way. If ND keeps winning and can pull a Cade Mays, Kyler Gordon, Tariq Bracy, Julius Irvin, Lawrence Keys type of finish and manage to wrestle away a WDE while they're at it, that would be an excellent finish to a top 10 class.

I'm simply mentioning where we are at right now. There are a lot of moving pieces in recruiting and 4.5 months to go. Things change quickly. ND can put all of its focus on about 20 guys right now and try to finish down the stretch.

Yeah no disrespect. I read all your recruiting post. I used to let it bother me when we missed out on difference makers. I just take a win and they will come attitude. The guys that sign are the ones I really start to pay attention to their names. Root for the guys we get not the ones we don't lol. Although i remember Teo was down to ND and USC. Couldnt stomach him as a Trojan lol. Go Irish.

 

[Buguit]

All is not lost. We simply need a few to bounce our way. If ND keeps winning and can pull a Cade Mays, Kyler Gordon, Tariq Bracy, Julius Irvin, Lawrence Keys type of finish and manage to wrestle away a WDE while they're at it, that would be an excellent finish to a top 10 class.

I'm simply mentioning where we are at right now. There are a lot of moving pieces in recruiting and 4.5 months to go. Things change quickly. ND can put all of its focus on about 20 guys right now and try to finish down the stretch.

Simply put ... now that ND is starting to win games and get "back" into the national picture ..... they have to beat USC

 

[stu4don]

And yet.... IIO -- do you know if anyone has done a study about 1. attrition rate/and what drives attrition and how in affects recruiting 2. which positions over (or under) perform their position rankings?

1. 2013 we finished with the #3 class in the nation yet we lost a ton of players. Yet in 2014 and 2015 we finished #11 and these are the impact guys on our emerging team right now.
2. Mcintosh, Proscise and Adams were both 3* players. We have seen disappointing 5* RBs at ND -- Bryant (RIP) and Aldridge come to mind.

I wonder if Kelly is taking this into account. Can we compete with #11 classes full of guys willing to wait their turn and stick for 4/5 years. And is there a way to know who those guys will be?

It seems that OL players are more willing to be patient (built into their position) while QBs, RBs and WRs seem more likely to jump (because they have the physical attributes and expect to play earlier?)

Is it position or it is personality type?

I also think coaching (and position coaches) have a lot to do with this - look at what Denson has been able to do with 5 young RBs.

Okay, I'm all over the place but this team is full of 3* player overachieving and making a real impact.

 

[stu4don]

This is what I want from IIO's list except I believe we need 3 CBs.

"Need to land a couple difference makers. 1 elite OL, 2 quality corners, 1 quality WDE and a quality 3rd WR... At the very least."

Our roster is pretty young and well stocked unless we lose too many departing before their eligibility expires. I have already assumed that we lose Adams and Nelson. I have heard some mention Mustipher and JHayes as well though.

We need 5 star types to get us over the edge. We have 16 commits now.

For OL, I want Taimani, Mays or Petite Frere.
For CB, Bracy, Gordon and Taylor. Taylor's position flexibility is a big plus.
For WR, Cota. Again his position flexibility is a big plus. I think most want a speedy punt returner type but Cota has a 4.53 and is 6'3.5". I think McIntosh, Crawford, Armstrong, Holmes, Young and maybe Pride can be our punt/kickoff returner.

WDE, we need to get some creative offers out there like we did with Taylor. We just don't lead with either Ossai or Oweh. We only have 3 WDEs next year. If we strike out, we might have to end up beefing up a Buck or using an SDE there. Not good.

I like your thinking. McIntosh is an inspired idea. We need a Ronnie Stanley/Nick Martin type who could come in and start on the OL. Cota is intriguing. Not familiar with the CBs.

 

[zonairish]

2012 we wiffed after a great season. But we were in on more

 

[Telx1]

And yet.... IIO -- do you know if anyone has done a study about 1. attrition rate/and what drives attrition and how in affects recruiting 2. which positions over (or under) perform their position rankings?

1. 2013 we finished with the #3 class in the nation yet we lost a ton of players. Yet in 2014 and 2015 we finished #11 and these are the impact guys on our emerging team right now.
2. Mcintosh, Proscise and Adams were both 3* players. We have seen disappointing 5* RBs at ND -- Bryant (RIP) and Aldridge come to mind.

I wonder if Kelly is taking this into account. Can we compete with #11 classes full of guys willing to wait their turn and stick for 4/5 years. And is there a way to know who those guys will be?

It seems that OL players are more willing to be patient (built into their position) while QBs, RBs and WRs seem more likely to jump (because they have the physical attributes and expect to play earlier?)

Is it position or it is personality type?

I also think coaching (and position coaches) have a lot to do with this - look at what Denson has been able to do with 5 young RBs.

Okay, I'm all over the place but this team is full of 3* player overachieving and making a real impact.

Stu...we do have some three stars making an impact like Amosa and Love and I think Claypool. That said, this Team is loaded with four starters who were four stars and a couple five stars.

 

[stu4don]

Stu...we do have some three stars making an impact like Amosa and Love and I think Claypool. That said, this Team is loaded with four starters who were four stars and a couple five stars.

Totally agree Telx -- but arguably our best defensive player this year Tranquill was a 3* -- as was Greer Martini. Not arguing about the need for 4 or 5* talent (Floyd, Manti, Jaylon come to mind) but I think Kelly is looking beyond that to the personality of the player. Even more than his first few years.

I believe the variable (between us and Alabama type teams) is we need to find players who will stick with us for 4/5 years, bama doesn't need that as much.

That said, I feel like this ND group can have a nice two year run. But it would be nice to get a 5* OL guy who could step in -- or some of the other guys mentioned above.

 

[stu4don]

After another Tenn loss -- I hate to be that poacher guy, but hell teams did it to us last year -- how come we didn't offer Cade Mays from Catholic. He's from Knoxville so he probably was never gonna leave Tn. But Harry should whisper in his ear?

 

[stu4don]

Oops. I see that you guys mentioned Mays above.

I need to do some yard work and take a break.

 

[zonairish]

After another Tenn loss -- I hate to be that poacher guy, but hell teams did it to us last year -- how come we didn't offer Cade Mays from Catholic. He's from Knoxville so he probably was never gonna leave Tn. But Harry should whisper in his ear?

. tenn is currently 6th rated by espn

 

[Telx1]

Totally agree Telx -- but arguably our best defensive player this year Tranquill was a 3* -- as was Greer Martini. Not arguing about the need for 4 or 5* talent (Floyd, Manti, Jaylon come to mind) but I think Kelly is looking beyond that to the personality of the player. Even more than his first few years.

I believe the variable (between us and Alabama type teams) is we need to find players who will stick with us for 4/5 years, bama doesn't need that as much.

That said, I feel like this ND group can have a nice two year run. But it would be nice to get a 5* OL guy who could step in -- or some of the other guys mentioned above.

Thought Tranquill was a four star. Regardless, you make a good point and raise an interesting question. I think you recruit like hell and try to get the best talent possible, and assume the best leave after three years, and hope a few stay another year; all the while knowing the majority of recruits will be four and five years in the program.

 

[TAN1973]

OMG.... the sky is falling!!!! it’s October... relax... allow the season to play out.... half the committed names on your list .... prolly decomit...and for the uncommitted.... the more we win... the better chance we have at landing some names....ND recruiting is moving at a far more excellerated pace then ever... we have become spoiled.... we are fine ... Go IRISH!

 

[REMND]

And yet.... IIO -- do you know if anyone has done a study about 1. attrition rate/and what drives attrition and how in affects recruiting 2. which positions over (or under) perform their position rankings?

1. 2013 we finished with the #3 class in the nation yet we lost a ton of players. Yet in 2014 and 2015 we finished #11 and these are the impact guys on our emerging team right now.
2. Mcintosh, Proscise and Adams were both 3* players. We have seen disappointing 5* RBs at ND -- Bryant (RIP) and Aldridge come to mind.

I wonder if Kelly is taking this into account. Can we compete with #11 classes full of guys willing to wait their turn and stick for 4/5 years. And is there a way to know who those guys will be?

It seems that OL players are more willing to be patient (built into their position) while QBs, RBs and WRs seem more likely to jump (because they have the physical attributes and expect to play earlier?)

Is it position or it is personality type?

I also think coaching (and position coaches) have a lot to do with this - look at what Denson has been able to do with 5 young RBs.

Okay, I'm all over the place but this team is full of 3* player overachieving and making a real impact.

We have picked up quite a few 3 star guys. We got them early with no gun to our head. The staff knew who they wanted.

Ja'mion Franklin is a 3 star. Great film.
Micah Jones, 3 star. Senior film is a huge upgrade from Jr year where he was a 3rd option.
Mabry and Dirksen are 3 star guys.
Ovie is 3 star guy.
Jahmir Smith is a 2000 yard 3 star RB that I call the human piston.
Justin Ademilola is a 3 star SDE but reports say he is steadily improving.

Now though, we need some more highly rated guys like Jurkovec, Allen and Austin.

 

[ftnfan62]

Austin and Allen just have "that" look. Gonna be something feels like.

 

[TAN1973]

Don’t really buy into “stars”... recruiting is an in exact science!!! Period... there has been way to many 5 star busts.... and a lot more 3 start over achievers.... great coaching... can go a long way!!!

 

[Pennick44]

Too early. Let the season play out. Still some out there that aren't convinced of the ND revival.

 

[TAN1973]

Cuzzzz.... I live in the shadow of the dome.... see it’s glory on a daily basis... I will consider the program “revived”.... when it can consistently... have double digit wins ... from year to year...

 

[Pennick44]

Cuzzzz.... I live in the shadow of the dome.... see it’s glory on a daily basis... I will consider the program “revived”.... when it can consistently... have double digit wins ... from year to year...

I am not your Cuzzz.

 

[TAN1973]

Your right... you are not my cuzzz...

 

[TXNDFan88]

If we are poaching I would add Nebraska to the list.

 

[TAN1973]

Poach away...Kelly!!!!!

 

[NotreDame du Lac]

Maybe it's because BK is busy being a head coach this year. I'd rather win games than worry about recruiting. Build it and they'll come.

 

[TAN1973]

U win ... they will come!!!!

 

[Howard Hall 74]

There is each year this hope that if ND wins all its games the 5* and top 4* recruits will follow. It rarely happens. Recruits go to a school for usually 3 reasons; the school, the program, or the head coach (and for 80% those that live within 200 mile radius). No one is coming here because of Kelly. He is more of a negative than a draw. The program has suffered a severe reputational buzz. Last year at 4&8 and the previous disappointments have placed the program in the position of having "to prove itself". That's why each year, it appears like the program is recruiting well in the early stages. Those commits are coming here because of ND. Not Kelly or his program. ND. And they are happy to commit because this is where that wanted to come all along. It's this final push for the top recruits that we always fall short. If we get into the BCS for several years in a row things may change, but not with Kelly running things. The assistant coaches have added a lot to the quality of preparation and performance. Maybe they can overcome the handicap of Kelly, we'll see. Right now don't expect any top recruits coming here, if they were going to, they would have committed already. That's the way it's been each year. That's the reality.

 

[TAN1973]

That was very well put... that post pretty much sums up the Kelly era... hopefully... he can still morph himself into...a top tier coach... The hiring of Elko... was a giant step in a positive direction... But still... the program lacks a certain nastiness... that can only be instilled by its head coach...

 

[stu4don]

There is each year this hope that if ND wins all its games the 5* and top 4* recruits will follow. It rarely happens. Recruits go to a school for usually 3 reasons; the school, the program, or the head coach (and for 80% those that live within 200 mile radius). No one is coming here because of Kelly. He is more of a negative than a draw. The program has suffered a severe reputational buzz. Last year at 4&8 and the previous disappointments have placed the program in the position of having "to prove itself". That's why each year, it appears like the program is recruiting well in the early stages. Those commits are coming here because of ND. Not Kelly or his program. ND. And they are happy to commit because this is where that wanted to come all along. It's this final push for the top recruits that we always fall short. If we get into the BCS for several years in a row things may change, but not with Kelly running things. The assistant coaches have added a lot to the quality of preparation and performance. Maybe they can overcome the handicap of Kelly, we'll see. Right now don't expect any top recruits coming here, if they were going to, they would have committed already. That's the way it's been each year. That's the reality.

Disagree about your opinion of Kelly. His recruiting numbers (and more importantly his development of players who fit the current game, remember how slow Davie's teams were?) are better than anyone since Holtz. He got us to the National Championship game for the first time since '89. (Not an easy task with a Freshman QB.) He had us in the conversation (and a couple of plays away from the final four) even after his worst decision as an ND coach (BVG) and with another Freshman QB. He totally remade who he is as a coach and has the Irish 5-1 with it's only loss a one-point heartbreaker to #2 Ga. He currently has his best coaching staff in place -- I'm really impressed with HH, Elko, and Denson. You still want PJ Fleck? Give me a break. IMO -- Kelly will only stay another year and it should be a helluva two year run.