Irish secondary besieged by bad people, bad players
http://www.news-sentinel.com/sports...coaching-has-brought-Notre-Dame-to-this-point
http://www.news-sentinel.com/sports...coaching-has-brought-Notre-Dame-to-this-point
Poor recruiting, coaching has brought Notre Dame to this point
- Thread starter G_a_r_y
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Fire Brian VanGorder
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regardless of your sctual motivation in posting
Defensive recruiting is the regimes downfall. For 3 recruiting seasons now some fans have cited that sooner or later this would be reflected on the field of play.
That observation was met with a list of bodies recruited. Then a mention of offer lists (probably mostly non committable)
All the failures aside, the difference between where ND is today and being a legitimate player in the hunt for playoffs and major post seadon bowl spots is just 2-3 defensive recruits each session. Just 2 top 5 at their position(front4) players in those classes and I doubt we are having this dicussion.
It is this idea that makes the Kelly staff say they are close and stay the course.
The problem is they are not any closer to getting those type of DL now than 3 years ago.
As the defensive woes grow, as recruits shy from BVG, as the excuses mount the harder it will be to 'fix' the D.
It is only a short matter of time before poor D recruiting affects offensive recruiting.
A possible 'thing to try' is a new high profile DC to create an immediate 'new' identity for the D.
Defensive recruiting is the regimes downfall. For 3 recruiting seasons now some fans have cited that sooner or later this would be reflected on the field of play.
That observation was met with a list of bodies recruited. Then a mention of offer lists (probably mostly non committable)
All the failures aside, the difference between where ND is today and being a legitimate player in the hunt for playoffs and major post seadon bowl spots is just 2-3 defensive recruits each session. Just 2 top 5 at their position(front4) players in those classes and I doubt we are having this dicussion.
It is this idea that makes the Kelly staff say they are close and stay the course.
The problem is they are not any closer to getting those type of DL now than 3 years ago.
As the defensive woes grow, as recruits shy from BVG, as the excuses mount the harder it will be to 'fix' the D.
It is only a short matter of time before poor D recruiting affects offensive recruiting.
A possible 'thing to try' is a new high profile DC to create an immediate 'new' identity for the D.
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This team's personnel isn't really set up to be effective in this defense. No cover corners or real rush ends.The defensive line seems better suited in the 3-4 due to their size and lack of pass rush. Image the line and open up things for linebackers which is the defense's strength. Daelin Hayes and Trumbetti can rotate at outside linbacker. The Hayes kid can play every down; if need be cause he looked pretty good in coverage on a couple of plays. The safeties need to stay in cover 2 and the corners to try to keep every in front of them. Firing Vangorder before the end the season would be kind of pointless, unless Kelly can take his place until the season is over.
This team needs a complete reboot. What Kelly is doing isn't and hasn't worked. I know he won't get fired. So I'm not even going there. But as long as he stays, things will not change. If you have trouble getting great defensive players, then what do you do? First, Bob Diaco had a good plan and it worked. He basically said we will concede the middle of the field but when you get close we will only give you field goals.
Second, having an offense that is based on a power/option run game helps eat the clock and keeps your defense off the field. You can still go play action and make throws but you don't need to throw 40 times a game. ND does neither of those two things. This is not Kelly's philosophy. He likes to outscore people. That's fine if you play lesser opponents. But they play big, tough , in your face teams. You can't allow teams like Texas and MSU to build big leads and expect to come back. They are too talented. Basically play a bend don't break defense and run an efficient power offense. If they can do that they can play with anyone.
Second, having an offense that is based on a power/option run game helps eat the clock and keeps your defense off the field. You can still go play action and make throws but you don't need to throw 40 times a game. ND does neither of those two things. This is not Kelly's philosophy. He likes to outscore people. That's fine if you play lesser opponents. But they play big, tough , in your face teams. You can't allow teams like Texas and MSU to build big leads and expect to come back. They are too talented. Basically play a bend don't break defense and run an efficient power offense. If they can do that they can play with anyone.
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Recruiting has been fine. Not elite, but fine. There are dozens of other teams in the country that do more, with considerAbly less. The issue is bad scheme, even worse execution of an already bad scheme.
Andrew Trumbetti: 4 star (top 150)
Jay Hayes: 4 star
Isaac Rochell: 4 star (top 150)
Daniel Cage: 4 star
Jerry Tillery: 4 star (top 150)
Daelin Hayes: 5 star (top 150)
Julian Okwara: 4 star
James Onwualu: 4 star
Nyles Morgan: 4 star (top 150)
Te'Von Coney: 4 star
Cole Luke: 4 star (top 150)
Drue Tranquill: 4 star
Nick Watkins: 4 star (when he returns)
Devin Studstill: 3 star
Avery Sebastien: 4 star
Shaun Crawford: 4 star (top 150)
Julian Love: 4 star
Nick Coleman: 3 star
That is the ND defensive personnel that has played the majority of the snaps this year. Nowhere near Alabama or Ohio State talent, but considerably more talent than alot of much better defenses around the country. Talent is not the problem.
I laughed at Brian Kelly's assertion yesterday in the Sunday press conference that a lot of this has to do with inconsistent play from the WILL linebacker position... Sure Coney and Martini has missed a couple fits and and tackles, but it sounded a lot like what he was really saying is "our WILL linebacker is no longer the best player in the country, running around, saving my DC's ass and masking this dreadfully unsound scheme."... Oh and yhe defense still sucked with Jaylon.
Andrew Trumbetti: 4 star (top 150)
Jay Hayes: 4 star
Isaac Rochell: 4 star (top 150)
Daniel Cage: 4 star
Jerry Tillery: 4 star (top 150)
Daelin Hayes: 5 star (top 150)
Julian Okwara: 4 star
James Onwualu: 4 star
Nyles Morgan: 4 star (top 150)
Te'Von Coney: 4 star
Cole Luke: 4 star (top 150)
Drue Tranquill: 4 star
Nick Watkins: 4 star (when he returns)
Devin Studstill: 3 star
Avery Sebastien: 4 star
Shaun Crawford: 4 star (top 150)
Julian Love: 4 star
Nick Coleman: 3 star
That is the ND defensive personnel that has played the majority of the snaps this year. Nowhere near Alabama or Ohio State talent, but considerably more talent than alot of much better defenses around the country. Talent is not the problem.
I laughed at Brian Kelly's assertion yesterday in the Sunday press conference that a lot of this has to do with inconsistent play from the WILL linebacker position... Sure Coney and Martini has missed a couple fits and and tackles, but it sounded a lot like what he was really saying is "our WILL linebacker is no longer the best player in the country, running around, saving my DC's ass and masking this dreadfully unsound scheme."... Oh and yhe defense still sucked with Jaylon.
To IrishinOntario .
j.Hayes, Trumbetti , Cage, Martini .Onawalu ,Rochell, Tillery , Morgan. Most all of these players were listed as 4-stars coming out of high school .None of these front 7 players has developed into a real difference maker . They are good but nowhere near the powerhouse schools' talent. As far as the secondary ,graduation loses plus a lot of injuries to our defensive backs . Some of the starting defensive backs would be 3rd string if not for all the injuries .
As far as 2017 recruiting ,we are getting many 4 -star high school stars .How many are going to be difference makers.Looking at the 2017 recruiting ,many of the 5- star defensive players have committed or will commit to the Alabamas ,Ohio States .are any difference makers have ND on their lists.
My point is that we can be a 10-20 program and every so often possibly break the top 10 . But we are not there yet .
j.Hayes, Trumbetti , Cage, Martini .Onawalu ,Rochell, Tillery , Morgan. Most all of these players were listed as 4-stars coming out of high school .None of these front 7 players has developed into a real difference maker . They are good but nowhere near the powerhouse schools' talent. As far as the secondary ,graduation loses plus a lot of injuries to our defensive backs . Some of the starting defensive backs would be 3rd string if not for all the injuries .
As far as 2017 recruiting ,we are getting many 4 -star high school stars .How many are going to be difference makers.Looking at the 2017 recruiting ,many of the 5- star defensive players have committed or will commit to the Alabamas ,Ohio States .are any difference makers have ND on their lists.
My point is that we can be a 10-20 program and every so often possibly break the top 10 . But we are not there yet .
Of course he does. He's doing what any coach worth his salt should do. He's publically standing behind his DC and long time friend....
That isn't the point I was trying to make, however. The issue I have is the what you easily take from that comment by simply reading between the lines and apllying the smallest but bit of common sense... If this scheme is so broken ans poorly coached that it requires the most athletic defensive player in ND's history and the nation's top linebacket just to stop it from being one of the bottom 15 defenses in the country, how the hell is it sustainable. It may be a decade before ND sees another Jaylon Smith in South Bend. Maybe longer.
Do you have any idea what about a 15 college defensive coordinators, making probably half to 2/3 of what BVG is making, could do with the talent in South Bend. Those guys would give their left testicle to have ND's personnel. Call the guy at Temple. Remember them? He'd recruit the he'll out of the East Coast, enjoy a sizeable raise and his scheme would continue to be rock solid, easily learnable and instead of having maybe 1 NFL player on his defense, he'd have no fewer than half-a-dozen all times.
That isn't the point I was trying to make, however. The issue I have is the what you easily take from that comment by simply reading between the lines and apllying the smallest but bit of common sense... If this scheme is so broken ans poorly coached that it requires the most athletic defensive player in ND's history and the nation's top linebacket just to stop it from being one of the bottom 15 defenses in the country, how the hell is it sustainable. It may be a decade before ND sees another Jaylon Smith in South Bend. Maybe longer.
Do you have any idea what about a 15 college defensive coordinators, making probably half to 2/3 of what BVG is making, could do with the talent in South Bend. Those guys would give their left testicle to have ND's personnel. Call the guy at Temple. Remember them? He'd recruit the he'll out of the East Coast, enjoy a sizeable raise and his scheme would continue to be rock solid, easily learnable and instead of having maybe 1 NFL player on his defense, he'd have no fewer than half-a-dozen all times.
IIO
the results say you are wrong.
Even in a bad scheme on bad teams, natural pass rushers are obvious.
ND does not have one of those. Worse, none of the DT's are push the line back kind,
and aside from Hayes the DE's are not athletic.
You can fall back to star rankings to look at the incoming class and expectation, but once 2 seasons are gone by for a player you know what you have.
Defensive recruiting is such that it is in the 2nd 20 type poll rankings.
cvgr posted the defensive rankings so far. It reflects what I just posted.
It is about the results.
the results say you are wrong.
Even in a bad scheme on bad teams, natural pass rushers are obvious.
ND does not have one of those. Worse, none of the DT's are push the line back kind,
and aside from Hayes the DE's are not athletic.
You can fall back to star rankings to look at the incoming class and expectation, but once 2 seasons are gone by for a player you know what you have.
Defensive recruiting is such that it is in the 2nd 20 type poll rankings.
cvgr posted the defensive rankings so far. It reflects what I just posted.
It is about the results.
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More telling is the offensive lineman walk lethargically onto the field and into the huddle. There is always a rash of injuries. Poor play calling and constant lecturing the QB because it is always his fault the stupid play didn't work. Discipline problems always and a poor record against decent teams. Kelly at ND is similar to the Redskins, Cowboys, Browns or the Raiders with AL Davis. When it matters the most expect to lose. Paul Johnson said it best. Why would you want to play for those boys from Grand Valley State?
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IIO: I looked @ BVg's resume and honestly I was not impressed. He seemed to quit or be let go from every gig he had. So my guess is the relationship is what got him the position and unfortunately the relationship is causing problems for BK on how to handle this. I agree the scheme is not working but its more than scheme BVG is not a good leader or teacher. Maybe he would be better off as a position coach
I agree 100%. We might not have the talent of Alabama or OSU, but we have enough talent on defense to be light years better than we are playing. Nothing is ever as simple as it seems, but something in the BVG system just isn't clicking for ND. Maybe it did at Georgia, maybe it did or didn't at Auburn, but there's not doubt something is amiss right now at ND. Changing this stuff mid-season is not likely to happen at ND, but Kelly needs to really evaluate every coach on defense over these last 9 or 10 games, and make changes in the off season. Or it could be his job that's in jeopardy instead.
How are Michigan State, Michigan, and Stanford doing it with the same dann quality of players...
They reason that they haven't developed is because BVG and his staff haven't developed them. That's the point. I'll post the offer lists of many of those big time players / high school All Americans? Do you think it's ironic that ND just happens to land nearly every 4 star who doesn't live up to his potential on the defensive side of the ball, while every other school's 4 stars develop (with obvious individual exceptions).
ND turns guys like EQ St. Brown, TJ Jones, Theo Riddick, Ronnie Stanley, Zack Martin, Will Fuller, Tyler Every, etc, etc into studs because ND has wicked offensive coaches... And none of it of those guys were ranked at or near the top of recruiting boards. Many, in fact, were afterthought. Brian Kelly and Mike Denbrock are EXCELLENT developers of talent, however.
Bob Diaco turned out to be a heck heck of a coach. The reason Tuitt, Nick, LOL, Te'o, Shembo, H. Smith, Jackson, Russell, Slaughter, etc, etc reached their potential was because of Diaco, not in spite of him... Some of those guys were monsters coming in, who lived up to expectations, but many of them (KLM, Jackson, Spond, Fox, Calabrese, Schwenke, Farley, etc, etc) were not studs coming into school. They developed under a good coach, in a sound, easy-to-learn scheme that focused on toughness and fundamentals instead of exotic packages, a million coverages,DL being asked to do 12 jobs at once and linebackers being asked to perfect or it would be an automatic touchdown. That scheme was passive and extremely basic. But Diaco demanded that those kids play tough, smart, football and he let his 2-3 studs (Te'o, Tuitt) shine, while the others did their role re 1/11th.
Disagree. MSU and Stanford consistently rank lower than ND in recruiting, and yet they both continue to put out solid defenses every year. The difference is in the coaching. We had a solid DC in Diaco, but BVG just hasn't gotten the job done.
Apologies about the typos. On my phone and autocorrect is killing me hahaha. Don't have time to proof read either.
One thing at a time...
You want to know why the elites are elite???
Good material is nice and they have it but they are very well coached.
You could swap 5 star players at Every position on defense right now and they'd still tackle like garbage, coverage gaps, etc. And have horrible technique.
The above things need to be coached and taught..reiterated constantly...and they've nothing to do with material.
Cole Luke is not such a piss poor athlete that he was up on row 18 with the fans on that last play.
Cole Luke will be a fine corner in the NFL. His draft stock being killed by our incompetent staff.
But let's start with getting things right starting with tackling form...before we start crying our athletes are sub par.
When we see our players attempting to make proper tackles and quit playing lazy...and we are still getting shredded then we can move on to the next thing which is material. I see a d line with no excitement and energy. I see a secondary having such horrible technique tackling and covering.
Our linebackers play selective football. Martini doesn't but he is a little heavy footed. But that is who should be at middle backer. Regardless he tackles lousy and out of control.
Studstill will ....no no...could be a tremendous player but his maturation will be physically only. His maturing as a player won't change much because of our incompetent staff.
Last year Temple is a great example of this.
They played very good text book technique tackling, coverage, etc.
This is a great example of a team that played good hard nosed football , coached well...but at times they just got out athleted.
We can't even say our players got out athleted yet because everything else that has no bearing on talent is so piss poor with our team. .. how the hell can we even tell if our guys aren't good enough when they aren't given the proper training. ❕❕❕❕
You want to know why the elites are elite???
Good material is nice and they have it but they are very well coached.
You could swap 5 star players at Every position on defense right now and they'd still tackle like garbage, coverage gaps, etc. And have horrible technique.
The above things need to be coached and taught..reiterated constantly...and they've nothing to do with material.
Cole Luke is not such a piss poor athlete that he was up on row 18 with the fans on that last play.
Cole Luke will be a fine corner in the NFL. His draft stock being killed by our incompetent staff.
But let's start with getting things right starting with tackling form...before we start crying our athletes are sub par.
When we see our players attempting to make proper tackles and quit playing lazy...and we are still getting shredded then we can move on to the next thing which is material. I see a d line with no excitement and energy. I see a secondary having such horrible technique tackling and covering.
Our linebackers play selective football. Martini doesn't but he is a little heavy footed. But that is who should be at middle backer. Regardless he tackles lousy and out of control.
Studstill will ....no no...could be a tremendous player but his maturation will be physically only. His maturing as a player won't change much because of our incompetent staff.
Last year Temple is a great example of this.
They played very good text book technique tackling, coverage, etc.
This is a great example of a team that played good hard nosed football , coached well...but at times they just got out athleted.
We can't even say our players got out athleted yet because everything else that has no bearing on talent is so piss poor with our team. .. how the hell can we even tell if our guys aren't good enough when they aren't given the proper training. ❕❕❕❕
Agreed...but...firing van gorder now is paramount. Everything BVG brings to this team is a negative. Everything.
Plus Kelly needs to see the message we are done ****ing around.
However if that's his message he'd also have to fire himself.
then can you list the ND pass rushers and their sack stats for us?
If you have seen football for a time, you know that some guys are just naturals at it.
We can pretty fairly be sure that so far there is no such player on the roster.
The best scheme/plan is only as good as the the persons executing it.
Stop looking at other teams: what do you see from ND?
Can't separate scheme and talent, they have to compliment each other. The big unknown to me is player development. Our corners would not be any better, and possibly worse, if they played MSU's scheme which puts a ton of pressure on the corners to cover, and be physical. What I don't know, is whether our corners have the talent and speed and mentality to play this way with proper coaching and development, or whether their skills and abilities are better suited for less physical zone responsibilities? What I do know is we are in year three with BVG and he should have evaluated and recruited the kind of talent he needs to play his scheme, and this is no longer an acceptable explanation for our pathetic defensive play. Kelly clearly stated pre season that lack of the right kind of talent and system understanding inhibited BVG's scheme from being successful the first two years, and he argued that this would not be the case this year. We're actually worse!
Andrew Trumbetti was recruited as a WDE with intention of him being a pass rusher... The other guys ND recruited for the poaiton are no longer on the roster for one reason or another. Kolin Hill transferred back to Texas after a promising freshman season. Jhonathan Williams left after his freshman season. Doug Randolph retired after multiple shoulder surgeries and Bo Wallace didn't get in last minute and went to ASU instead.
4 of the 5 WDE's ND landed over 2 cycles flamed out. Trumbetti never developed.
In 2015 ND landed two good ones im Hayes and Okwara, but neither is ready to be a dominant player as a true freshman. I also think Jones is going to grow into more of a WDE as well.
4 of the 5 WDE's ND landed over 2 cycles flamed out. Trumbetti never developed.
In 2015 ND landed two good ones im Hayes and Okwara, but neither is ready to be a dominant player as a true freshman. I also think Jones is going to grow into more of a WDE as well.
D. Hayes might be. He made a very athletic play dropping back into coverage Saturday.
But coaching can make a huge difference. Did BC (#1 ranked defense last year) have any NFL-caliber edge rushers on their team?
I think whoever wrote that article is just looking for a scapegoat. He doesn't even offer any alternatives/solutions to improve play. In regards to talent, scheme, and fundamentals, does anybody here really think the reason ND lost, is because MSU offense was that much better talent wise? The answer is no, they weren't. Not one guy from MSU offense is going to play on Sundays, except for maybe an o-lineman or the WR Donnie Corley. So the talent was there to beat this team. Now the scheme is awful. There were times just based on the way ND was lined up, they were not in a favorable position to make a play. That's poor coaching. Lastly, fundamentals... this is the worst I've seen it be for some time. They just don't play fundamental smart football. You know what the difference was between MSU front 7 and ND's front 7? MSU, their LBs in particular attacked the line of scrimmage. ND will engage with the blocker trying to figure out where the play is going and finally tackle the guy after 4-5 yards.
well I noted Hayes as a might be; and what in hell was he doing in pass coverage if he is the best threat to get to the QB; other accounts have Hayes dropping into coverage on a RB!
there is no pass rush: fact
your hypothetical that a different coach may generate one is conjecture and unprovable.
so all there is is the results.
could another DC get a pass rush? I doubt it; but another DC might accept that and take steps to compensate. Again, my conjecture.
The real solution : better DL specialists who rush the QB.
there is an issue and that you cannot see that is mind boggling unless you consider Purdue your benchmark.
Who is your DL? Who is your pass rush guy? It is not just the scheme.
It is bad coaching + an incomplete DL roster. (no rush end and all stay at home aversge skill, at best)DT's.
How the heck do you explain the result.
Who is your DL? Who is your pass rush guy? It is not just the scheme.
It is bad coaching + an incomplete DL roster. (no rush end and all stay at home aversge skill, at best)DT's.
How the heck do you explain the result.
How is MSU and Stanford getting a pass rush from players ND feels were too inferior to recruit. They take 2 - 3* players sprinkle in a few 4*. Coach them up for 3 to 4 years and unleash them as 4th and 5th year seniors. 3 to 4 years of coaching, training, lifting, repeat. How are these too slow to play for ND players getting pass our 4 - 5 * Oline with 3 or 4 man rushes? How come our higher star recruits can't get a pass rush on their low 3* offensive line????? 4 man rushes, blitz from LB, nothing getting through. Can't say ND has less talent than MSU. They out perform us on both sides in the trenches with "inferiror" talent. I say the results are coaching and development.
Team talent level, rivals rankings. with the exception of 2012 stanford 5th ranking, ND has had far better talent than MSU and stanford.
look at the 2013 rankings where players are supposed to be in their 4th year
2012 ND 22 MSU 42 stanford 5
2013 ND 3 MSU 47 (wtf47!!!!!) stanford 63 (WTF)
2014 ND 11 MSU 22 stanford 14
2015 ND 11 MSU 22 stanford 18
2016 ND 13 MSU 18 stanford 19
Team talent level, rivals rankings. with the exception of 2012 stanford 5th ranking, ND has had far better talent than MSU and stanford.
look at the 2013 rankings where players are supposed to be in their 4th year
2012 ND 22 MSU 42 stanford 5
2013 ND 3 MSU 47 (wtf47!!!!!) stanford 63 (WTF)
2014 ND 11 MSU 22 stanford 14
2015 ND 11 MSU 22 stanford 18
2016 ND 13 MSU 18 stanford 19
The major difference between Stanford/MSU and ND recruiting is that those programs do a better job of recruiting players that fit what Stanford/MSU are all about, both on the field and otherwise. Dantonio and Shaw and their staffs are great evaluators of talent, regardless of star ratings or other offers. And they are great developers of that talent. But more important, IMHO, they have not had to deal with roster holes created by transfers, academic and other issues.
GOUNUII
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Hopefully Swarbrick can convince Coach Kelly to step down after the season. I like Coach Kelly but I love the Irish and want to get to the next level.
Coach Kelly has done a good job making the Irish job attractive again for the next coach. I hope the Irish can get a top notch outside hire but if they can't just hire Mike Denbrock.
I eat my crow in thinking this Irish team was destined for Greatness !
Hats off to Texas and Michigan State.
*** I will still cheer for the Irish for all their games but I might skip a few and won't get really interested until they become relevant again. I wish we could get a coach like Urban Meyer.
*** But I refuse to trash the current staff or team. I wish them all the success.
*** And God bless all of you Irish fans !
1 Bodizephax, Saturday at 11:32 PM
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