OT-Steve Bartman

[Irishjohn68]

The Cubs presented Mr Bartman and World Series ring of his own. I think that was a classy thing for the Cubs organization to do. And for any Cubs fans who still blame Bartman for his trying to catch a foul ball, well get over it.

http://wgntv.com/2017/07/31/steve-b...-chicago-cubs-world-series-championship-ring/

 

[NDskins]

Does he deserve the ring? no. Did he deserved to be treated as a pariah? No. Great for him, but some former cubs great that didn't get a ring playing for the cubs should get one before Steve. Steve has stayed class throughout his ordeal, I am happy for him and hope the terrible cub fans that ran him out of town can finally let Steve be and allow him to watch a cubs game again.

 

[nemeth#5]

The way that guy got treated and blamed for doing something everyone would of done is the reason I hate the cubs (that and they have fans worldwide who supported losing for a century).

 

[Islero]

There have been a lot of revisionist takes on Bartman over the passage of time, especially following the Cubs winning a World Series. Here's my take, which hasn't changed a bit since I, as a horrified Cubs fan, watched the murky aftermath of the play that rocketed him into notoriety. Had he not interfered with the ball, Alou almost certainly would have caught the second out, and with 2 outs and nobody on base, the Cubs would have been in a much better position to win the game and go to the WS. Other things contributed to the downfall--Gonzalez's botched handling of a double play, Prior losing his composure, and the failure in Game 7--but none of that erases the issue of Bartman's interference costing the team an almost sure out. I've heard people say that "it was doubtful" that Alou would have caught the ball. To that, BS!!!!, he was right there to make the play. I've also heard that anybody would have interfered. Again, BS!!!!!. While many would, there have been instances where fans have intelligently backed away and let their team's player make a play, and I'd think that that would be accentuated in a potential NLCS clinching game. Bartman was supposed to be an intelligent fan, as he played in a highly competitive amateur league. He should have known better to have done what he did. If you notice him in the video, you can see that he was wearing headphones, as he was listening to the game on the radio. This might have distracted him from where he was relative to a guy trying to make a play.

Bartman never deserved the abuse he received--his reaction in the moment was understandable--and the way he's handled himself has been class personified, but that still doesn't wash away his role in contributing to the Cubs downfall.

 

[nemeth#5]

There have been a lot of revisionist takes on Bartman over the passage of time, especially following the Cubs winning a World Series. Here's my take, which hasn't changed a bit since I, as a horrified Cubs fan, watched the murky aftermath of the play that rocketed him into notoriety. Had he not interfered with the ball, Alou almost certainly would have caught the second out, and with 2 outs and nobody on base, the Cubs would have been in a much better position to win the game and go to the WS. Other things contributed to the downfall--Gonzalez's botched handling of a double play, Prior losing his composure, and the failure in Game 7--but none of that erases the issue of Bartman's interference costing the team an almost sure out. I've heard people say that "it was doubtful" that Alou would have caught the ball. To that, BS!!!!, he was right there to make the play. I've also heard that anybody would have interfered. Again, BS!!!!!. While many would, there have been instances where fans have intelligently backed away and let their team's player make a play, and I'd think that that would be accentuated in a potential NLCS clinching game. Bartman was supposed to be an intelligent fan, as he played in a highly competitive amateur league. He should have known better to have done what he did. If you notice him in the video, you can see that he was wearing headphones, as he was listening to the game on the radio. This might have distracted him from where he was relative to a guy trying to make a play.

Bartman never deserved the abuse he received--his reaction in the moment was understandable--and the way he's handled himself has been class personified, but that still doesn't wash away his role in contributing to the Cubs downfall.

I like how you lay everything out and still put partial blame on Bartman.

 

[Islero]

I like how you lay everything out and still put partial blame on Bartman.

If you examine all the cause-and-effect events changing the outcome of that game, you'd be remiss not to cite the Bartman play. The issue, IMO, was never his role, but the horrendous overreaction to it. Speaking of blame, you seemed to be laying everything at the foot of tne entire Cub fanbase. What team's genteel fanbase to you belong to and how would everyone react to a similar situation?

 

[IRISHJD98]

The Cubs spent 60 years blaming a stupid goat. If Bartman gets a ring, the goat should get a statue.

 

[Islero]

The Cubs spent 60 years blaming a stupid goat. If Bartman gets a ring, the goat should get a statue.

The goat already serves as the logo of a hugely popular Chicago cheezburger franchise. I think that's equitable amends.

 

[Kelso86]

There have been a lot of revisionist takes on Bartman over the passage of time, especially following the Cubs winning a World Series. Here's my take, which hasn't changed a bit since I, as a horrified Cubs fan, watched the murky aftermath of the play that rocketed him into notoriety. Had he not interfered with the ball, Alou almost certainly would have caught the second out, and with 2 outs and nobody on base, the Cubs would have been in a much better position to win the game and go to the WS. Other things contributed to the downfall--Gonzalez's botched handling of a double play, Prior losing his composure, and the failure in Game 7--but none of that erases the issue of Bartman's interference costing the team an almost sure out. I've heard people say that "it was doubtful" that Alou would have caught the ball. To that, BS!!!!, he was right there to make the play. I've also heard that anybody would have interfered. Again, BS!!!!!. While many would, there have been instances where fans have intelligently backed away and let their team's player make a play, and I'd think that that would be accentuated in a potential NLCS clinching game. Bartman was supposed to be an intelligent fan, as he played in a highly competitive amateur league. He should have known better to have done what he did. If you notice him in the video, you can see that he was wearing headphones, as he was listening to the game on the radio. This might have distracted him from where he was relative to a guy trying to make a play.

Bartman never deserved the abuse he received--his reaction in the moment was understandable--and the way he's handled himself has been class personified, but that still doesn't wash away his role in contributing to the Cubs downfall.

Because if it was not Bartman, it would have been another average fan who would have done the same thing as Bartman.

 

[Islero]

Because if it was not Bartman, it would have been another average fan who would have done the same thing as Bartman.

Anybody who blocks a player from catching the ball for a virtually certain out would bear some responsibility. I think there are plenty of fans who would have had the sense to back away and let the catch be made, you can even see that in the video.

 

[wicker]

everyone in Wrigley that night had an eerie premonition and Bartman's moment was it. It's a wonder anyone could spit their tobacco juice correctly, much less field a grounder.

Steve will still get crap because somewhere is some guy whose grandfather died between then and last year and thus never lived to see a world championship

 

[IRISHJD98]

Amends? The Billy Goat Tavern existed long before Cubs fans started blaming the goat for everything. That poor goat never cursed anyone. William "Billy Goat" Sianis did to promote his "Billy Goat" Tavern.

The goat is an innocent victim whose reputation has been unfairly maligned by the Cubs. The only reasonable thing to do is put a bronze goat next to Ernie Banks.

 

[Toby Smart]

Anybody who blocks a player from catching the ball for a virtually certain out would bear some responsibility. I think there are plenty of fans who would have had the sense to back away and let the catch be made, you can even see that in the video.

This is utter BS. That play was only a foul ball. Nothing more. Steve wasn't the only fan reaching for the ball. It's easy to see now that he should have backed off. If Alou doesn't react, it goes down as a non issue. These idiot fans blamed Bartman for a foul ball but say nothing about the botched DP that opened the flood gates later that inning or the fact that the coaching staff never left the dugout to settle down a distressed Mark Prior. If the Cubs mental state were that fragile that a simple foul ball led to disaster then it's best they stayed as far away from the World Series as possible that year.

 

[Islero]

This is utter BS. That play was only a foul ball. Nothing more. Steve wasn't the only fan reaching for the ball. It's easy to see now that he should have backed off. If Alou doesn't react, it goes down as a non issue. These idiot fans blamed Bartman for a foul ball but say nothing about the botched DP that opened the flood gates later that inning or the fact that the coaching staff never left the dugout to settle down a distressed Mark Prior. If the Cubs mental state were that fragile that a simple foul ball led to disaster then it's best they stayed as far away from the World Series as possible that year.

The only BS is your foolish take. Foul balls can be caught for outs, or aren't you aware of that aspect of the game? Why the Hell do you think Alou reacted the way he did? Could it be that he felt he was in a great position to make the catch and suddenly lost that opportunity because of fan interference? Yes, that's the case. Alou even said as much shortly thereafter. Yes, it's easy to say now that Bartman should have backed off. Guess what? It was easy to say then, as well. Nobody said that Bartman was the only one going after the ball, but there were also other ones who backed off, as the video shows. Quite sure that Bartman, being a smart baseball fan, privately admitted to himself that he effed up. As I've outlined in previous posts, issues like the botched DP, Prior's lack of composure, and blowing Game 7 were also events of failure, but that in no way means that the Bartman incident didn't play a role.

 

[HDK]

Amends? The Billy Goat Tavern existed long before Cubs fans started blaming the goat for everything. That poor goat never cursed anyone. William "Billy Goat" Sianis did to promote his "Billy Goat" Tavern.

The goat is an innocent victim whose reputation has been unfairly maligned by the Cubs. The only reasonable thing to do is put a bronze goat next to Ernie Banks.

A true scapegoat.

 

[Toby Smart]

Bartman played no role. It was a foul ball. It might have been caught. Maybe not. If caught, it was only a single out. That single play was so critical to the mentality of the Cubs players that they wet their collective pants. Major League ball players. One single foul ball. I caught a foul ball from a Hall of Famer years ago (Tim Raines) and it is mayhem. It's a natural fan instinct to catch the damn thing.You would have too smart guy. Alex Gonzales lost the game. Dusty Baker lost the game. Steve Bartman had nothing to do with it.

 

[Islero]

People can say that Bartman had nothing to do with the loss all they want, but that isn't true. It might somehow seem noble to deny what happened, and obviously all the good vibes surrounding the Cubs organization make this gesture an easy decision, but the Cubs would almost assuredly have had two outs and nobody on base if Bartman hadn't interfered with the baseball. Alou's reaction indicates that he "knew" he was going to make the catch. Baseball even charts winning probabilities, and the Cubs odds would have been overwhelming had that catch been made. As a disheartened Cubs fan, I saw all this live and viewed the replay of the interference 1,000 times and hoped 1,000 times for a different result. All this doesn't mean that Bartman should have been abused and mistreated the way he was. The actions of the fans were unconscionable (although it would have been no different had that situation occurred in any ballpark), but what happened happened. I think in large part, Bartman's role is being downplayed out of some sense of guilt.

 

[Toby Smart]

Down played, not because of guilt but because of reality. It's interesting because after the game Alou said he would have caught the ball and wasn't exactly forgiving of Bartman. In 2008 , during an ESPN.com piece, Alou says he would not have caught the ball. Alex Gonzales should send Steve Bartman flowers and candy every single day.

 

[Islero]

The softening of Alou's stance is the very issue of guilt that I'm talking about. His immediate reaction after the incident tells the story of what he really believed. Moreover, the replay of the foul ball shows that he was "right there" to make the catch.

I never felt any guilt because I was never part of the lynch mob. Yet, that doesn't mean that I don't acknowledge his mistake. I'm sure Steve privately feels the same way.

 

[Irishjohn68]

Anybody who blocks a player from catching the ball for a virtually certain out would bear some responsibility. I think there are plenty of fans who would have had the sense to back away and let the catch be made, you can even see that in the video.

It's obvious that you have never seen the play because there was like 3 or 4 other fans going for the ball also.

 

[Islero]

It's obvious that you have never seen the play because there was like 3 or 4 other fans going for the ball also.

Yeah, I never saw it....except for 1,000 times. If you could follow what I wrote, you'd realize I said that other fans were reaching for the ball. However, some weren't. If you follow the game, you should realize the gravity of the situation and allow a vital catch to be made. Look at the fans to the left of Bartman, they were backing away.

 

[ndfi65]

Anybody who blocks a player from catching the ball for a virtually certain out would bear some responsibility. I think there are plenty of fans who would have had the sense to back away and let the catch be made, you can even see that in the video.

The ball was in the stands. He didn't reach over into the game of play. Whiney crybaby cub fans.

 

[Toby Smart]

First it was the goat, then the black cat, then Steve Bartman. Add Steve Garvey and Will Clark to the misery. How did the foul ball affect any Cub fan's life one way or another if Alou had a clean shot? Did they gain riches? Fame? Better parking at the games? A free hot dog at the concession? A pay raise at work? Nothing was gained by acting like a bunch of spoiled fools on national TV and ruining a guys life. It wasn't their life so what the hell.

 

[Islero]

Chicago Cubs!!! Reigning World Champs!!! Deal with it!!!!

 

[Toby Smart]

I'm a Cubs fan too.Been to Wrigley more than a few times. I'm just a realist.

 

[Islero]

As I said, World Champion Chicago Cubs !!!! Hey! Hey! Holy Mackerel! Deal with it!!!

 

[Kelso86]

Anybody who blocks a player from catching the ball for a virtually certain out would bear some responsibility. I think there are plenty of fans who would have had the sense to back away and let the catch be made, you can even see that in the video.

"Anybody who blocks a player from catching the ball for a virtually certain out would bear some responsibility."

Because the shortstop who booted a sure DP, and a pitcher who could not close out the inning also have no responsibility -- right?

 

[Islero]

"Anybody who blocks a player from catching the ball for a virtually certain out would bear some responsibility."

Because the shortstop who booted a sure DP, and a pitcher who could not close out the inning also have no responsibility -- right?

Have you read my previous posts?????? I specifically cited the botched double play and pitcher losing his composure as playing roles in the collapse. "Bear some responsibility" does not mean "be solely accountable."

 

[nemeth#5]

A Lakers and a Cub fan.... yikes.

 

[Islero]

A Lakers and a Cub fan.... yikes.

And KC Chiefs fan, as well. Feel free to list your allegiances.

 

[nemeth#5]

And KC Chiefs fan, as well. Feel free to list your allegiances.

We can start with the Cardinals.....

 

[Islero]

We can start with the Cardinals.....

St. Louis or Arizona?

 

[IRISHJD98]

Yeah, I never saw it....except for 1,000 times. If you could follow what I wrote, you'd realize I said that other fans were reaching for the ball. However, some weren't. If you follow the game, you should realize the gravity of the situation and allow a vital catch to be made. Look at the fans to the left of Bartman, they were backing away.

That picture is bit deceptive because the ball had already been deflected. When Bartman touched it, there were other fans trying to snag it.

If you look carefully, you'll notice there's no goat hoof in the video.

 

[Islero]

That picture is bit deceptive because the ball had already been deflected. When Bartman touched it, there were other fans trying to snag it.

If you look carefully, you'll notice there's no goat hoof in the video.

View embedded media

I think you're trying to read a bit too much into it. You can go to a video if you like. Who said anything about goats? Superstitions are silly, and the WS of 2017 should convert the most gullible. Put another way, the rabbit's foot didn't bring any luck to the rabbit.

 

[IRISHJD98]

#Justice For Murphy!

 

[Islero]

#Justice For Murphy!

This was news in November.

 

[IRISHJD98]

This was news in November.

Says a Cubs fan still carrying a grudge about a 2003 foul ball.

Murphy needs a GoFundMe campaign.

 

[Islero]

Says a Cubs fan still carrying a grudge about a 2003 foul ball.

Murphy needs a GoFundMe campaign.

Not carrying any grudge. Just acknowledging the truth of what happened.

Cubs are World Champions!!!!! Feels great!!!!

 

[IRISHJD98]

Not carrying any grudge. Just acknowledging the truth of what happened.

Cubs are World Champions!!!!! Feels great!!!!

The truth of 2003 is plain and simple: the Cubs choked. They didn't need any special excuse; blowing a two run lead in game 7 confirmed that. And let's not forget, they could have clinched in game 5, but got shut out.

That said, I'm a White Sox fan that lived on Waveland Ave just down from Wrigley for 12 years. I watched a LOT of bad Cubs baseball, while listening to the Cubs fans who continued to fill the stadium and make excuse after excuse for the team. The night of the Bartman game, as a neighborhood resident with my windows open that night, hearing the sound of the stadium and my neighbors watching tv, I got sucked in and found myself actually rooting for the hometown team. Then they choked, which reminded my why I never rooted for them. In a wave of neighborhood vandalism after the game, the side view mirror was ripped off my car . Admittedly, I've carried a special grudge since.

Fast forward to last season - I'm living in a different neighborhood. A few blocks from me, a homeless guy had been living for months in a shelter he made under the El tracks. He never panhandled or bothered anyone, but he was dirty, smelled, and was clearly suffering from alcoholism and depression. The morning after the Cubs finally won their first game in the series, I walked past him on my way to grab a cup of coffee. There he was smiling,donning a brand new Cubs, dancing, and singing to himself "Go Cubs Go". I had never seen him happy. And I thought to myself, If the Cubs winning the World Series can bring some joy to this guy's life, I'll pull for them.

If it brings joy to your life, enjoy the Cub's championship. I hope it brings you a lifetime of memories.

 

[Islero]

The truth of 2003 is plain and simple: the Cubs choked. They didn't need any special excuse; blowing a two run lead in game 7 confirmed that. And let's not forget, they could have clinched in game 5, but got shut out.

That said, I'm a White Sox fan that lived on Waveland Ave just down from Wrigley for 12 years. I watched a LOT of bad Cubs baseball, while listening to the Cubs fans who continued to fill the stadium and make excuse after excuse for the team. The night of the Bartman game, as a neighborhood resident with my windows open that night, hearing the sound of the stadium and my neighbors watching tv, I got sucked in and found myself actually rooting for the hometown team. Then they choked, which reminded my why I never rooted for them. In a wave of neighborhood vandalism after the game, the side view mirror was ripped off my car . Admittedly, I've carried a special grudge since.

Fast forward to last season - I'm living in a different neighborhood. A few blocks from me, a homeless guy had been living for months in a shelter he made under the El tracks. He never panhandled or bothered anyone, but he was dirty, smelled, and was clearly suffering from alcoholism and depression. The morning after the Cubs finally won their first game in the series, I walked past him on my way to grab a cup of coffee. There he was smiling,donning a brand new Cubs, dancing, and singing to himself "Go Cubs Go". I had never seen him happy. And I thought to myself, If the Cubs winning the World Series can bring some joy to this guy's life, I'll pull for them.

If it brings joy to your life, enjoy the Cub's championship. I hope it brings you a lifetime of memories.

Great post, I enjoyed reading it, and thanks for the kind wishes.

I never meant to go off on a tangent about this, and the Cubs certainly did choke. I just sincerely believe that Bartman's interference was part of the issue, and I'm not going to dismiss it. At the same time, I can understand why he might have overreacted that way. Heck, one time in a softball game, I, as the pitcher, cut off a throw to home plate that probably would have nailed a runner coming home from third. It was a braincramp, I goofed, and that's what I thought Bartman did.

As a fan, I've been through the wars. My baseball allegiance dates back to the '60s. As a high schooler, I endured the tragedy of '69 and the Miracle Mets, the emptiness of the '70s (save for Bruce Sutter), the humiliation of losing to the Padres in '84, the Will Clark show of '89, and then a series of playoff losses culminating with the Bartman incident and club el foldo of 2003. Pretty sure I've paid my dues, and the Cubs finally won....something that many said was an impossibility as decreed by the laws of physics.

Back as a kid, I initially had nothing against the White Sox. In fact, through the '60s, I pretty much rooted for them as my second team. Especially loved their pitching of Gary Peters, Juan Pizarro, Joel Horlen, and especially Mr. Knuckleball, Hoyt Wilhelm, who had 5 straight straight seasons with an ERA BELOW 2.00. However, when I went to a few White Sox night games, the Cubs were invariably playing on the West Coast and losing, and Sox fans vociferously rejoiced over that issue. That incurred my enmity. Gradually, things thawed. One of my best friends is the former brother in law of Steve Goodman and an avid White Sox fan. I joke with him that unlike him, after a Sox win, I don't have to listen to my brother in law singing about it. My wife comes from a White Sox rooting family, so diplomacy was necessary. Everything is cool now about the White Sox. I went to last Sunday's game and joked with my buddy while Moncada was up that my life would probably end before his career. If Moncada pulls a Craig Biggio and plays 20+ years I'll have attained an age that I don't even care to talk about.

I'm happy that Bartman got his ring and hope there is some type of ceremony for him. If any jerks boo him that would suck, and while I might be a jerk, I won't be among those booing.