ND vs NCST MBB
- Thread starter BGI User 1596
- Start date
Good to see the boys fighting hard. They're a really young, bad team right now, but at least you can see that they have some potential to make some noise heading forward.
John Mooney is the next in line of ND big men that the top schools passed on but who wind up being an All American in ND's system. He's becoming an excellent player. Hopefully the team makes enough progress around him over the next year to get him back to the NCAA tournament before he graduates.
This year is a write off, but it's vastly important for these young kids to learn how to play the game, while losing, on their way to being Tournament caliber team in the future. I'm enjoying watching their individual development at this point, more than hoping I'll tune in expecting to see them win games in an unforgiving league.
John Mooney is the next in line of ND big men that the top schools passed on but who wind up being an All American in ND's system. He's becoming an excellent player. Hopefully the team makes enough progress around him over the next year to get him back to the NCAA tournament before he graduates.
This year is a write off, but it's vastly important for these young kids to learn how to play the game, while losing, on their way to being Tournament caliber team in the future. I'm enjoying watching their individual development at this point, more than hoping I'll tune in expecting to see them win games in an unforgiving league.
They are not a bad team, they are talented and hard working, but with no bench they are inconsistent. If they were bad team they’d be losing by 20 ... playing tough when outmanned against very good competition. Mooney was notnpassed over he de-committed from Florida ... these are some highly recruited players ... one click below the McD AA one and done kids. If we were playing with 8 or 9 players we’d be a bubble team with all butnone of our players returning.
Exactly! This is not a bad team and needs time to grow. This should be a classic Brey team once he finds the combination that clicks. Right now he's searching for an identity for them and they still have been in every game this year. This will be a very fun team to watch once they get healthy and get more experience.
This is a bad team by the standard Brey's teams have set over the past decade. They've already lost 3 home games and they have several more home losses ahead of them. Looking at the remaining schedule, I'd be proud of this team if they found their way to 16 wins on the season, and a 5-13 ACC record. Any finish outside of the bottom 3 in the ACC would have me thrilled with their performance, given how green and inconsistent they are...
Good teams find a way to win. Bad teams find a way to lose... This team has found ways to lose all season. From Radford, to Oklahoma, to UCLA, and right into league play... I have no problem just flat out saying that they're undermanned and really young. It bodes well for their future, but right now they just aren't a good team.
As for John Mooney, let's not pretend he was highly recruited. He had offers from Florida, Notre Dame and a couple smaller schools. Not a single top 15 program offered him a scholarship and he was ranked as the composite #37 PF and #146 recruit nationally... That's not a slight at what he's become. Brey has done an awesome job with the underappreciated, undersized (length more than height) white forwards... Kurz, Harangody, Cooley, Mooney, etc, etc.
Good teams find a way to win. Bad teams find a way to lose... This team has found ways to lose all season. From Radford, to Oklahoma, to UCLA, and right into league play... I have no problem just flat out saying that they're undermanned and really young. It bodes well for their future, but right now they just aren't a good team.
As for John Mooney, let's not pretend he was highly recruited. He had offers from Florida, Notre Dame and a couple smaller schools. Not a single top 15 program offered him a scholarship and he was ranked as the composite #37 PF and #146 recruit nationally... That's not a slight at what he's become. Brey has done an awesome job with the underappreciated, undersized (length more than height) white forwards... Kurz, Harangody, Cooley, Mooney, etc, etc.
“Good teams find a way to win. Bad teams find a way to lose... This team has found ways to lose all season. From Radford, to Oklahoma, to UCLA, and right into league play.”
This doesn’t mean they’re bad. They had 6 new faces to start the season and three of them haven’t played in conference play (Rex/carmody & Durham has missed a few). They’ve been competitive in every loss and could’ve won most of the games they lost & I imagine the rest of the season will be similar if we can get Durham back healthy. Inexperience & fatigue at end of games are the reasons why they’ve faltered down the stretch of games, not this dumb cliche about “good teams find ways to win & bad teams find ways to lose” BS. They’re young and have no depth because of injuries and burns leaving. We played unc at chapel hill even w/ only 6 players. A “bad” team would’ve gotten blown out in that scenario.
This doesn’t mean they’re bad. They had 6 new faces to start the season and three of them haven’t played in conference play (Rex/carmody & Durham has missed a few). They’ve been competitive in every loss and could’ve won most of the games they lost & I imagine the rest of the season will be similar if we can get Durham back healthy. Inexperience & fatigue at end of games are the reasons why they’ve faltered down the stretch of games, not this dumb cliche about “good teams find ways to win & bad teams find ways to lose” BS. They’re young and have no depth because of injuries and burns leaving. We played unc at chapel hill even w/ only 6 players. A “bad” team would’ve gotten blown out in that scenario.
I get where you are coming from bro.
I have a different definition of bad but doesn’t matter we are just debating words. We both agree this team is a big work in progress and would have been even without the injuries. Injuries happen and we’ve had more than our share last two seasons, maybe partially a result of a short bench and too many minutes. Brey and Swanagan are excellent big man coaches, recruiting big bodies that are undersized (height) with soft hands good feet and smarts ... they find a way to catch the ball and get to the basket. It’s not a white kid thing though. I enjoy watching this team - they struggle to put it together for 40 mins but they are competitive almost every night. Yesterday they were a wide open corner 3 from likely winning ... but big difference between Connaughton or Vasturia and the player who took the shot yesterday.
Go Irish.
To paraphrase an overused, but accurate expression, you are who your record says you are.... You can have talent and be inexperienced, and still be bad. None of those things are mutually. 68 teams make the NCAA Tournament. Unless something significiant happens, this group won't sniff the top 68. Won't even be in the conversation (top 75'ish) Hell, I'd be thrilled if they won 1/3 of their conference games...
In what world is that not the mark of a bad team? Why are people afraid to call it like it is. Through, injury, attrition and gaps in recruiting, ND has a bad basketball team in 2018-2019. Why can't you just admit that in one breath, while being excited about the teams they could have in coming years if guys develop, stick around and stay healthy?
If an ND team that will be lucky to win 17-18 regular season games is a good team (not a bad team) then how the hell are we supposed to differentiate between them and low-to-middle tier tournament teams that have actually had a good season, earned their way to the NCAA Tournament by WINNING games, but don't have any real legitimate shot to make the Final 4 with the elite teams, to compete for a championship.
We're not going to agree on this one Francade. Nobody is ever going to convince me to ignore the record, ignore the product, and instead focus on excuses as to why this team is in fact good, but will still lose half (or near half) of its games. Those two things don't add up.
If you put a gun to Mike Brey's head and asked him if he had a good team this year I suspect his answer would be something along the lines of...
"No, we're not a good team this year. We're developing, searching for an identity and leadership and battling through injuries. We're not a good team right now, but if we stay the course we have a chance to be good in the future when we're healthier, more experienced and we've figured out our rotation. A guy who I had hoped would develop into a steady force in the paint as a senior ended up being a bust. I lost my best defender, and captain, to an ACL at the start of conference play and I'm playing two guards big minutes less than a year after an ACL tear and a microfracture surgery. I also have a developing big man and rim protector that is banged up and I'm asking freshmen who aren't ready to handle big minutes, to play much more than they should be... We're bad right now, but we're going to be better next year".
IMO, that's how any reasonable coach would define this team.
Last edited:
We are just arguing over the definition of a word now ... this team is moving forwards not backwards or stuck in neural. If this was a team of mediocre seniors that gave poor effort and lost all the same games but by 20 instead of a group of young players working hard and showing skills and losing down the stretch by 5 I would see a difference in those two scenarios personally ... but it’s a bottom third ACC team either way, yes of course.
Watch Brey’s press conference from yesterday he basically said we aren’t good enough to beat the good teams on our schedule unless we shoot 50% amd we are going to drive Mooney into the ground but we are starting to have guys step up into roles - conference wins are going to be few this year. Call it whatever you want ... bad team, young team, developing team, but don’t call it a dumpster fire.
We're not just arguing over terminology and semantics. The argument is about merit and how you're viewed based on your merit.
I'm going to continue to see this team as a bad team, until they win games against good competition. When they start doing that and their record reflects success (NCAA Tournament resume), I'll be happy to heap the praise on them that they've earned.
We can agree to disagree and I'm fine with that. I'm not going to be coerced into referring to a team in a positive manner until they've earned said recognition via success. IMO, that would be spitting in the faces of past Brey teams that were actually GOOD teams and whose accolades were earned through success on the court, not through excuses.
Yes, this is a bad team, and that was fully expected. Brey has fielded a lot of good teams, and his formula for doing so has always been having veterans on The court who have been in his system for a few years, etc... His teams are known for their passing and cutting and team play, beating more athletic but less disciplined teams. This team is young and it doesn’t play like a Brey coached team, but the experience the young players are getting will pay dividends down the road. For me, it’s critically important that we see steady improvement in how they play the game throughout the season, and so far I’m encouraged.
Lighten up Francis, we aren’t even arguing. Wins and losses, bad team, case closed. If only the world was so binary. No one is spitting in anyone’s face, or coercing anyone. It used to be called a discussion. Dont be a diva, or be a diva. I don’t really care that much.
Nobody is being a diva, I'm simply taking a position and defending it. That's the foundation of a debate or a disagreement. I don't understand why anytime anyone is less than complimentary about anything to do with the Notre Dame athletic department, they are no longer participating in the discussion, but are instead "being a diva" or "throwing a tantrum".
Of course the world is not binary in many respects, but if we're going to move the needle to the point that we can't even objectively look at the successes of a team and classify said team based on their earned results, what's the point of even debating?
We live in a world where they've taken scoring out of youth soccer and hockey because they want the focus to be on self-esteem development and the concept of all kids winning and all kids being "good" and "equal". Personally, I think that's gross. It doesn't prepare them for the hardships of life and a world that is ultra competitive and often unforgiving starting around your teen years. You might think I'm being petty for holding that opinion, and that's fine. I think that's going to wind up in a generation of kids that are snowflakes, and who can't take any criticism, don't know how to lose and bounce back, etc, etc... So I simply maintain a consistency in my thinking, whether it be children were talking about, or college players.
I see nothing wrong with saying... "That's a bad team right now, but if they are the prideful competitors that I think they all are, they'll work to get a lot better, individually and as a group, and they'll grow into the good team in the future".
Ex
The empirical truth is too difficult to swallow for those who have compromised emotional intelligence.
Wow, I will never disagree with a post again. Thank you for such a deep thought. I wonder how many times you had to use spell check for the word empirical.
Right back at you........well done
Oh, quick edit though......my small brain would have used the correct word flatulence but nice try.
Ontario, as someone pointed out, we’re arguing semantics maybe. I don’t think a bad team would be competitive w/ the teams we’ve lost to and a bad team wouldn’t have beaten a couple teams that ND has beaten, that’s all I’m saying. They’re bad in comparison to our past teams, but considering the loss of 4 players to either transfer or injury, I’d say they weren’t a bad team, they’re an inexperienced team that struggles at the end of games because of a lack of depth. If it’s all about record, I’d agree they are bad (especially in conference play). But I’m actually surprised they’ve been competitive. No one has been consistently hot except Mooney maybe and NL & PH have been dreadful from three. Just have a couple of threes drop in any of those close ones and we win those games. A bad team isn’t close in those games, that’s all I’m saying. If they can continue to keep games close, I’d be more inclined to say they’re a better team than their record indicates. It’ll be tough to keep games close though if Durham doesn’t come back soon. UVA and duke on the horizon, those could get ugly. Remember though, you kneejerked last year saying we’d only win 4-5 conference games and they proved you wrong. Maybe they pull a rabbit out of their hat. I’m not gonna be disappointed w/ record as much as I will be if we look overmatched. Up until now, we haven’t looked completely outmatched, IMO.
