Lou Holtz and the Academic Argument

[NotreDame du Lac]

I constantly hear that coaches do not want to come to ND because they have no control and that ND has too many academic barriers. Explain to me why Lou was able to win a championship. He also recruited some less than genius kids to play for ND. How can this argument stand when ND has had so much success in the past? Has something changed?

 

[shabak]

I constantly hear that coaches do not want to come to ND because they have no control and that ND has too many academic barriers. Explain to me why Lou was able to win a championship. He also recruited some less than genius kids to play for ND. How can this argument stand when ND has had so much success in the past? Has something changed?

The academic restrictions were significantly less when Lou Holtz was the coach. In addition, I believe that the 85 man scholarship limit wasn't in effect when he was initially hired. Lou Holtz is actually a hands on coach. Kelly is not. He also had one of the best offensive line coaches in Joe Moore, and a stellar defensive coordinator in Barry Alvarez. In addition, Vinnie Cereto was 1 of the best recruiters and I believe that Holtz had 3 or so number 1 recruiting classes in the 1st 5 years. So that taken into account, is a reason why Lou Holtz was able to win and win consistently. Last, he was a master motivator. Kelly is not

 

[deadirishpoet]

I constantly hear that coaches do not want to come to ND because they have no control and that ND has too many academic barriers. Explain to me why Lou was able to win a championship. He also recruited some less than genius kids to play for ND. How can this argument stand when ND has had so much success in the past? Has something changed?

Yes it did change . No more proposition 48

 

[HDK]

Yes it did change . No more proposition 48

We actually only had two Proposition 48 players: John Foley, a linebacker or defensive end who suffered a career ending shoulder injury I think the Cotton Bowl loss to Texas A&M after the '87 season; and Tony Rice, who turned out pretty well.

 

[88ND]

We actually only had two Proposition 48 players: John Foley, a linebacker or defensive end who suffered a career ending shoulder injury I think the Cotton Bowl loss to Texas A&M after the '87 season; and Tony Rice, who turned out pretty well.

Ssshhh... Don't tell anyone.

Half the board...

Clearing

My

Throat....

The BK lovers.......

will tell you Lou had a team full of retards and criminals. Every kid minus Powlus couldn't get in today under Brian Kelly.


You don't even need to ask them. They'll tell you

 

[88ND]

The academic restrictions were significantly less when Lou Holtz was the coach. In addition, I believe that the 85 man scholarship limit wasn't in effect when he was initially hired. Lou Holtz is actually a hands on coach. Kelly is not. He also had one of the best offensive line coaches in Joe Moore, and a stellar defensive coordinator in Barry Alvarez. In addition, Vinnie Cereto was 1 of the best recruiters and I believe that Holtz had 3 or so number 1 recruiting classes in the 1st 5 years. So that taken into account, is a reason why Lou Holtz was able to win and win consistently. Last, he was a master motivator. Kelly is not

The only evidence I've seen in this so called abysmal coaching excuse named BK...and this shopping from different aisle horseshit...

Tony Rice and Chris Zorich would be outside looking in present day.

Any others? Thise are the only two I've heard.

 

[ND/Steel 36 Bus]

Lou and Vinny Cerrato went to the admissions dept and ask them to loosen the academic restrictions. the powers to be at ND went along with it. until ND got put on probation. because of the booster dating a couple ND players and stealing millions and giving some of it to the players she was dating.

I will never forget the day when I got my Blue and Gold illustrated back in 97. and the title saying the end of ND football the way we know it. we have never recovered since then as far as being a powerhouse and a legit NC team. after that scandal the school took back it's admission standards and this is where we are today.

 

[tbonesays]

I don't think the total number of hours spent on football and H&F is the same now as the 80s.

 

[graceh90]

Ssshhh... Don't tell anyone.

Half the board...

Clearing

My

Throat....

The BK lovers.......

will tell you Lou had a team full of retards and criminals. Every kid minus Powlus couldn't get in today under Brian Kelly.


You don't even need to ask them. They'll tell you

“Less than genius”
“Retards and criminals”

I don’t know of a single Irish fan that I’ve met in person that would refer to the ND football team with these terms. Not one.

Unless you were referring to yourself

 

[NotreDame du Lac]

If we did it in the 80’s we should surely do it today. I understand tradition, but this sounds to me like regression. Absurd. Let kids like Stepp come to ND! The kid probably had a tougher upbringing than ND admissions officers.

 

[irish4life888]

I constantly hear that coaches do not want to come to ND because they have no control and that ND has too many academic barriers. Explain to me why Lou was able to win a championship. He also recruited some less than genius kids to play for ND. How can this argument stand when ND has had so much success in the past? Has something changed?

Yes, if you were actually a ND fan you would know that Lou benifited from prop 48 which Tony Rice, Chris Zorich, and others got in and without would d have never had a NC.

 

[irish4life888]

If we did it in the 80’s we should surely do it today. I understand tradition, but this sounds to me like regression. Absurd. Let kids like Stepp come to ND! The kid probably had a tougher upbringing than ND admissions officers.

Good Gwad are you dumb...for an ND grad lol!

 

[irish4life888]

We actually only had two Proposition 48 players: John Foley, a linebacker or defensive end who suffered a career ending shoulder injury I think the Cotton Bowl loss to Texas A&M after the '87 season; and Tony Rice, who turned out pretty well.

Don't forget Chris Zorich, he would have never been accepted by today's standards.

 

[spenna]

Don't forget Chris Zorich, he would have never been accepted by today's standards.

I believe he went to a vocational high school ?

 

[irish4life888]

I believe he went to a vocational high school ?

I believe that's correct, but I also heard he had about a third grade reading level. He even admits it himself. But now has a law degree from ND!

 

[HDK]

Don't forget Chris Zorich, he would have never been accepted by today's standards.

No doubt about Zorich. I just referred specifically to the Proposition 48 students.

 

[88ND]

Yes, if you were actually a ND fan you would know that Lou benifited from prop 48 which Tony Rice, Chris Zorich, and others got in and without would d have never had a NC.

Who are the others? I'm not saying you're wrong but the only two I've seen written of were Rice and Zorich

 

[88ND]

I believe that's correct, but I also heard he had about a third grade reading level. He even admits it himself. But now has a law degree from ND!

That's correct

 

[Golson5]

Who are the others? I'm not saying you're wrong but the only two I've seen written of were Rice and Zorich

Ive read those 2. Also Bettis. And I think Watters, could be wrong on him though, that was a long time ago

 

[irish4life888]

Who are the others? I'm not saying you're wrong but the only two I've seen written of were Rice and Zorich

Not specifically labled prop 48s but players that would not get in now. I know strings were pulled to get Stonebreaker in.

 

[Ara64]

Lou did contribute 30 loses in 11 seasons at ND. Elite coaches do not lose 30 games over an eleven year career at a school like ND.

 

[HDK]

I believe that's correct, but I also heard he had about a third grade reading level. He even admits it himself. But now has a law degree from ND!

I don't for a minute believe that Zorich really read at a third-grade level when he entered ND. If he had, he would never have been able to complete a semester. You can't make up that kind of ground at even a community college. let alone a school like ND. No argument that he got in because he was built like a Mack truck, but he wouldn't have been able to even read a playbook with a third-grade reading level.

 

[shabak]

The only evidence I've seen in this so called abysmal coaching excuse named BK...and this shopping from different aisle horseshit...

Tony Rice and Chris Zorich would be outside looking in present day.

Any others? Thise are the only two I've heard.

Talent wise??? No way. Since we don't have access to admissions we will never know

 

[burmafrd1943]

There were only a handful of Prop 48 players and If I recall correctly ALL of them eventually got their degrees.

So that right there justifies their presence.

Zorich was a special case; not sure he was exactly a Prop 48. But the reality is that Rice was the only one that made a big impact.

There was definitely a looser admissions policy but it was not THAT loose. A handful of exceptions were made to normal admissions.

The difference clearly is that Lou was a great college coach. His schedules during that time were usually the toughest in the nation. Now after 93 the admissions standards started to clamp down; and Lou did not do as well recruiting; and his staff deteriorated. That was when he should have called it quits. I have noticed that Ara was the only ND coach outside of Leahy that finished strong. Ara contended for a NC in his first year and won one in his second to last year. He won 2 NCs and contended for 2 others in 11 years. And with Leahy he clearly was not what he was in the early years. Of course with Leahy getting all that talent at the end of WW2 made it rather easy.

 

[rgc7]

Yes, if you were actually a ND fan you would know that Lou benifited from prop 48 which Tony Rice, Chris Zorich, and others got in and without would d have never had a NC.

 

[rgc7]

In spite of being prop 48, both Tony and Chris graduated and were a credit to ND.

 

[NDSMC78]

Zorich was not a prop 48.

 

[88ND]

Zorich was not a prop 48.

Either way this excuse of admissions anf Brian Kelly are damn pathetic.
It's not like back then Lou got any player he wanted. People make it like Lou succeeded because he recruited from the Special Ed or juvenile hall.

Brian Kelly is the most overrated coach in D1

 

[Golson5]

Either way this excuse of admissions anf Brian Kelly are damn pathetic.
It's not like back then Lou got any player he wanted. People make it like Lou succeeded because he recruited from the Special Ed or juvenile hall.

Brian Kelly is the most overrated coach in D1

He is what most people (outside of some on this board) say he is. Hes a top 15 head coach. People dont say hes elite. They day hes very goo . He is what hes ranked.

 

[NotreDame du Lac]

I’m not about drastically lowering academic standards. What I am about is looking at each kid case by case, giving some weight to a tremendously talented athlete that may not have had the same privileges as others and giving him a chance at the ND experience. For some of these kids, an ND degree would change not just their lives, but the generations of their families that follow. If they can’t hack it and it hurts the graduation stats slightly, big deal. If it helps more kids I am for it. Hell, a lot of our best don’t graduate anyway.

 

[88ND]

He is what most people (outside of some on this board) say he is. Hes a top 15 head coach. People dont say hes elite. They day hes very goo . He is what hes ranked.

He's not that high. I don't know of one single top 15 program that would dismiss their current coach for him.

Top 25? Again why...??

You must have decent QB play to succeed in big boy football present day. He's absolutely terrible with the QB position.

Other coaches might not be a QB guru but they're really good at something.

BK is in no mans land.

Average recruiter.
Terrible special teams.
Terrible big game coach....in other words a shitty motivator
Defense? Not his thing even though he played that in college.
Offense? He made hay back at Cincinnati exploiting the game going ultra fast hurry up offense. Defenses weren't ready for that. Now everyone does that so where's his edge? Doesn't have one.

Now he has to really coach. Out coach the other sideline. Nope. Not Brian Kelly

Frank Beamer was a special teams specialist. Regardless if being social teams he specialized in something. They were ferocious on special teams.

BK has no identity and if the apologist insist on giving back handed compliments kike the program is in better shape than Weis and Willingham... Oh my dear lord. W T F does that even say.

It says we can't find anything to really compliment you on so we'll say you're better than two previous really bad coaches.

In other words it's no compliment at all.

 

[Irishjohn68]

I constantly hear that coaches do not want to come to ND because they have no control and that ND has too many academic barriers. Explain to me why Lou was able to win a championship. He also recruited some less than genius kids to play for ND. How can this argument stand when ND has had so much success in the past? Has something changed?

You claim to be an alum of ND and you don’t already know the answer? What a fraud you are.

 

[Irishjohn68]

He's not that high. I don't know of one single top 15 program that would dismiss their current coach for him.

Top 25? Again why...??

You must have decent QB play to succeed in big boy football present day. He's absolutely terrible with the QB position.

Other coaches might not be a QB guru but they're really good at something.

BK is in no mans land.

Average recruiter.
Terrible special teams.
Terrible big game coach....in other words a shitty motivator
Defense? Not his thing even though he played that in college.
Offense? He made hay back at Cincinnati exploiting the game going ultra fast hurry up offense. Defenses weren't ready for that. Now everyone does that so where's his edge? Doesn't have one.

Now he has to really coach. Out coach the other sideline. Nope. Not Brian Kelly

Frank Beamer was a special teams specialist. Regardless if being social teams he specialized in something. They were ferocious on special teams.

BK has no identity and if the apologist insist on giving back handed compliments kike the program is in better shape than Weis and Willingham... Oh my dear lord. W T F does that even say.

It says we can't find anything to really compliment you on so we'll say you're better than two previous really bad coaches.

In other words it's no compliment at all.

We get it. Your the smartest poster here and you.hate Kelly.

 

[Golson5]

He's not that high. I don't know of one single top 15 program that would dismiss their current coach for him.

Top 25? Again why...??

You must have decent QB play to succeed in big boy football present day. He's absolutely terrible with the QB position.

Other coaches might not be a QB guru but they're really good at something.

BK is in no mans land.

Average recruiter.
Terrible special teams.
Terrible big game coach....in other words a shitty motivator
Defense? Not his thing even though he played that in college.
Offense? He made hay back at Cincinnati exploiting the game going ultra fast hurry up offense. Defenses weren't ready for that. Now everyone does that so where's his edge? Doesn't have one.

Now he has to really coach. Out coach the other sideline. Nope. Not Brian Kelly

Frank Beamer was a special teams specialist. Regardless if being social teams he specialized in something. They were ferocious on special teams.

BK has no identity and if the apologist insist on giving back handed compliments kike the program is in better shape than Weis and Willingham... Oh my dear lord. W T F does that even say.

It says we can't find anything to really compliment you on so we'll say you're better than two previous really bad coaches.

In other words it's no compliment at all.

Hes so terrible....yet hes 28 and 6 in his last 34 games. Played in the playoffs. Played for a Title. Stop trying to go over the top with every crazy post. You want someone better, fine. Thats your right. But to act like hes a bum, thats dopey message board fanboy stuff. You should be above that

 

[88ND]

I’m not about drastically lowering academic standards. What I am about is looking at each kid case by case, giving some weight to a tremendously talented athlete that may not have had the same privileges as others and giving him a chance at the ND experience. For some of these kids, an ND degree would change not just their lives, but the generations of their families that follow. If they can’t hack it and it hurts the graduation stats slightly, big deal. If it helps more kids I am for it. Hell, a lot of our best don’t graduate anyway.

Check this out...
ND graduation rate is 95.7 percentvat present.

Let's just say for laughs none of the 85 scholarship players graduate. Every single scholarship player was so good to forego their senior season and left early. Or just not good enough academically to finish.

The ND graduation rate drops to... Ready...



Price is right music....


95 percent.

They'd lose 7/10ths of a point on graduation rate and fall from 95.7 to 95 percent even.

That's with all 100 percent of scholarship players not graduating. The damn rate is still off the charts higher than most.

 

[irish4life888]

I don't for a minute believe that Zorich really read at a third-grade level when he entered ND. If he had, he would never have been able to complete a semester. You can't make up that kind of ground at even a community college. let alone a school like ND. No argument that he got in because he was built like a Mack truck, but he wouldn't have been able to even read a playbook with a third-grade reading level.

Ya, that's probably exaggerating. I just remember watching some documentary on him and he said he was so far behind that he spent his first year on academic probation (like Tony Rice) and they both admit it was very hard. But enlightening in the same way because they discovered a lot about things other than football.

 

[88ND]

We get it. Your the smartest poster here and you.hate Kelly.

You're right and wrong.
I'm the smartest person in the world but I don't hate BK.

He's a lousy coach and happens to be coaching our beloved Irish football team but I don't hate him.


Hate his lack of coaching and ignorance of remedial things.

I don't hate him personally.

 

[HarlemIrish]

Lou did contribute 30 loses in 11 seasons at ND. Elite coaches do not lose 30 games over an eleven year career at a school like ND.

Six in his first season. Joel Williams got robbed in the Michigan game. Should of finished 6-5. That first team lost some really tough games. You could actually see the improvement & could tell that Lou was on to something.

 

[88ND]

Hes so terrible....yet hes 28 and 6 in his last 34 games. Played in the playoffs. Played for a Title. Stop trying to go over the top with every crazy post. You want someone better, fine. Thats your right. But to act like hes a bum, thats dopey message board fanboy stuff. You should be above that

The 6 toughest games in the last 34 he's lost.
Every single one of them.
That means he's doing nothing special whatsoever.

Go ahead and applaud mediocrity. That's your prerogative.

On the other hand I'll continue reaching and expecting just a tad more than losing every single tough game.

 

[88ND]

Six in his first season. Joel Williams got robbed in the Michigan game. Should of finished 6-5. That first team lost some really tough games. You could actually see the improvement & could tell that Lou was on to something.

We were in every single one. You could see the culture of football changing immediately.