Looks like D. Butler will dismissed...

[Shakin' Down the Thunder]

I don't suppose anyone thinks he'll be at ND anymore, after being formally charged with two felonies.

http://www.csnchicago.com/notre-dame/notre-dame-cb-devin-butler-formally-charged-two-felonies

 

[perseverare]

w/o details and not having info on any past disciplinary issues; dismissall from the team: yes.
But, hopefully after some dicipline by the administration, I hope the kid gets a chance to continue to get his degree. I ain't ready to give up on a 18-19 year old who a few days ago was an, 'RKG'.

 

[Toby Smart]

The Score (Chicago sports radio) was reporting that high profile trustees wants Butler gone. This university has suffered enough embarrassment at the hands of privileged selfish athletes who know better but choose to do it their way.

 

[theskibro]

w/o details and not having info on any past disciplinary issues; dismissall from the team: yes.
But, hopefully after some dicipline by the administration, I hope the kid gets a chance to continue to get his degree. I ain't ready to give up on a 18-19 year old who a few days ago was an, 'RKG'.

more drivel. The official University statement said "any student charged with a felony will be dismissed"

Two felonies here. He is beyond gone, he is burnt toast Maybe all that is being waited on is resolution in court- ie, confirmation of guilty verdict
I would be surprised if there is not a statement of dismissal today

Max was a RKG too. Now he is a WKG

 

[cgvr]

The Score (Chicago sports radio) was reporting that high profile trustees wants Butler gone. This university has suffered enough embarrassment at the hands of privileged selfish athletes who know better but choose to do it their way.

Well you may add "The Score" to the dunces here that regularly imply that the BOTs run Notre Dame.....
PS I strongly doubt they have a source....

 

[Irishjohn68]

w/o details and not having info on any past disciplinary issues; dismissall from the team: yes.
But, hopefully after some dicipline by the administration, I hope the kid gets a chance to continue to get his degree. I ain't ready to give up on a 18-19 year old who a few days ago was an, 'RKG'.

Agree!

 

[Toby Smart]

Well you may add "The Score" to the dunces here that regularly imply that the BOTs run Notre Dame.....
PS I strongly doubt they have a source....

I absolutely hate The Score. I respect non of their hosts. They do broadcast the Cubs so they have that going for them. If The Score does indeed have sources, it's probably this board.

 

[twalsh]

The Score (Chicago sports radio) was reporting that high profile trustees wants Butler gone. This university has suffered enough embarrassment at the hands of privileged selfish athletes who know better but choose to do it their way.

Do we really need trustees to weigh in on student discipline? I don't think so.

 

[perseverare]

more drivel. The official University statement said "any student charged with a felony will be dismissed"

Two felonies here. He is beyond gone, he is burnt toast Maybe all that is being waited on is resolution in court- ie, confirmation of guilty verdict
I would be surprised if there is not a statement of dismissal today

Max was a RKG too. Now he is a WKG

so how about you summarize the RGK's who became WKG's over the last 6+ years?
How many players became the subject of disciplinary and/or legal action?

Think about it, ND is where parents want to send the kids because they expect standards to be higher, guidance provided to be successful in life. But look what happens, the standards are so excellent and expectations such that 'reversal of fortune' come at you quite quickly.
Now these young men are either at a crossroads or they are banished and 'tainted'. That is because ND has standards of expectation. ND will survive just fine. The kids?

Now consider Bama. Same offenses or worse and a slap on the wrist. Life, career and futures go on almost w/o interuption.

Sure there are consequences to bad behavior but done at 19?

Remember Gene Shepard? he told a story of a kid at his high school graduation; the kid called out to recieve his diploma turned his back to the audiance and mooned the entire gathering.
Shepard noted, essentially the kids life was done at that moment; nothing he would ever do would rival that moment!

So you don't think there is a recruiting issue there? Would you want to send your kid to an 'all or nothing' situation? These events will be discussed with parents and recruits. They will hear, here at xyz U we have your kids back! we ain't gonna just just turn our back.

 

[DieHard_Irish]

so how about you summarize the RGK's who became WKG's over the last 6+ years?
How many players became the subject of disciplinary and/or legal action?

Think about it, ND is where parents want to send the kids because they expect standards to be higher, guidance provided to be successful in life. But look what happens, the standards are so excellent and expectations such that 'reversal of fortune' come at you quite quickly.
Now these young men are either at a crossroads or they are banished and 'tainted'. That is because ND has standards of expectation. ND will survive just fine. The kids?

Now consider Bama. Same offenses or worse and a slap on the wrist. Life, career and futures go on almost w/o interuption.

Sure there are consequences to bad behavior but done at 19?

Remember Gene Shepard? he told a story of a kid at his high school graduation; the kid called out to recieve his diploma turned his back to the audiance and mooned the entire gathering.
Shepard noted, essentially the kids life was done at that moment; nothing he would ever do would rival that moment!

So you don't think there is a recruiting issue there? Would you want to send your kid to an 'all or nothing' situation? These events will be discussed with parents and recruits. They will hear, here at xyz U we have your kids back! we ain't gonna just just turn our back.

Dude, go away please. ND is not Alabama; it's ND. The rules are the rules, the kids (and parents) know it. You break them and the consequences are clear.

 

[perseverare]

^ and there you have: the proof.

 

[perseverare]

"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and towalk humbly with your God."
Micah 6:8

I post this to remind you that this is indeed ND and not AlabamaI

No ND is indeed not Alabama.

 

[theskibro]

"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and towalk humbly with your God."
Micah 6:8

I post this to remind you that this is indeed ND and not AlabamaI

No ND is indeed not Alabama.

thanks for pointing that out There is not one person on this board who knew that and all are in your debt anxiously awaiting the 30,000 th post

 

[perseverare]

thanks for pointing that out There is not one person on this board who knew that and all are in your debt anxiously awaiting the 30,000 th post

really? does not seem like you're that sincere.

If anyone knew the passage - I guess like most standards they get applied in a subjective, when convenient or advantageous manner.

(and, frankly, I seriously doubt you ever read it before)

BTW: for the record: my thought is that he should be dismissed from the football program and pending the legal process resolution, be given the opportunity to continue his education. But you want him kick out: we got that right?

 

[theskibro]

really? does not seem like you're that sincere.

If anyone knew the passage - I guess like most standards they get applied in a subjective, when convenient or advantageous manner.

(and, frankly, I seriously doubt you ever read it before)

You babble and clutter this board and have no one who places an iota of value in your incoherence. Just a lonely guy posting all day long in a basement in New Jersey

 

[perseverare]

and as expected, lacking intellectual capability, the inevitable personal attack. And right after touting that he knew Micah 6:8.
what's your next post? "nah na na na"

I recently began to wonder how representative this forum is as a sample of a typical ND fan. I have to hope you are atypical.

 

[hoopsstar12]

Remember, like Yogi Berra said, It ain't over till it's over. Years ago I was in court for a traffic ticket. Before it was my turn there was a case where a guy hit multiple cops and yelled profanity etc. Felony charges with jail time was sought. At the end of the day the defense was that the guy didn't take his meds. He was fined only and it was only 200 bucks more than my traffic violation. Depending on the defense lawyer and the actual facts anything is possible.

 

[twalsh]

so how about you summarize the RGK's who became WKG's over the last 6+ years?
How many players became the subject of disciplinary and/or legal action?

Think about it, ND is where parents want to send the kids because they expect standards to be higher, guidance provided to be successful in life. But look what happens, the standards are so excellent and expectations such that 'reversal of fortune' come at you quite quickly.
Now these young men are either at a crossroads or they are banished and 'tainted'. That is because ND has standards of expectation. ND will survive just fine. The kids?

Now consider Bama. Same offenses or worse and a slap on the wrist. Life, career and futures go on almost w/o interuption.

Sure there are consequences to bad behavior but done at 19?

Remember Gene Shepard? he told a story of a kid at his high school graduation; the kid called out to recieve his diploma turned his back to the audiance and mooned the entire gathering.
Shepard noted, essentially the kids life was done at that moment; nothing he would ever do would rival that moment!

So you don't think there is a recruiting issue there? Would you want to send your kid to an 'all or nothing' situation? These events will be discussed with parents and recruits. They will hear, here at xyz U we have your kids back! we ain't gonna just just turn our back.

Turn our back on them? Everett Goldon and four of the frozen five are walking around with ND diplomas. We don't arbitrarily turn our back on kids. We can sell that to parents.

 

[perseverare]

^ and that has to be the continued policy. We have not heard much 'mercy' coming out on here the past 2 days.

 

[twalsh]

^ and that has yo be the continued policy. We have not heard much 'mercy' coming out on here the past 2 days.

I suspect that Redfield will have the opportunity to finish his degree. Butler is dependent on where this goes legally.

 

[perseverare]

football wised I am pissed as anyone but, good grief, we sure dont want to dispose college kids,19 year olds, as lost causes. That is just not the answer.

 

[greengael]

What a waste!

 

[Howard Hall 74]

so how about you summarize the RGK's who became WKG's over the last 6+ years?
How many players became the subject of disciplinary and/or legal action?

Think about it, ND is where parents want to send the kids because they expect standards to be higher, guidance provided to be successful in life. But look what happens, the standards are so excellent and expectations such that 'reversal of fortune' come at you quite quickly.
Now these young men are either at a crossroads or they are banished and 'tainted'. That is because ND has standards of expectation. ND will survive just fine. The kids?

Now consider Bama. Same offenses or worse and a slap on the wrist. Life, career and futures go on almost w/o interuption.

Sure there are consequences to bad behavior but done at 19?

Remember Gene Shepard? he told a story of a kid at his high school graduation; the kid called out to recieve his diploma turned his back to the audiance and mooned the entire gathering.
Shepard noted, essentially the kids life was done at that moment; nothing he would ever do would rival that moment!

So you don't think there is a recruiting issue there? Would you want to send your kid to an 'all or nothing' situation? These events will be discussed with parents and recruits. They will hear, here at xyz U we have your kids back! we ain't gonna just just turn our back.

Have no idea what you are talking about. Very poorly constructed argument. Starting with the nexus point of comparing Alabama with Notre Dame - academic and moral standards come from polar opposites. And I usually agree with you and not afraid to say it.

 

[Walruzz]

Well you may add "The Score" to the dunces here that regularly imply that the BOTs run Notre Dame.....
PS I strongly doubt they have a source....

Yes, it would be tremendously out of character for any sector of our society to have a small group of rich, privileged people calling the shots.

 

[perseverare]

Have no idea what you are talking about. Very poorly constructed argument. Starting with the nexus point of comparing Alabama with Notre Dame - academic and moral standards come from polar opposites. And I usually agree with you and not afraid to say it.

it is about football players and prospects, not general students. (parent perspective)

read it again. you'll agree with me because you are generally objective. It is not about 'judgement' but decision making. that

the crux of it is that, given the possibility or even probability that a kid might at some point 'err', do you want the draconian approach or the excessively lienant approach?

Bama: slap on the wrist
ND: maxed out

Clearly kids screw up at both universities.

This is something that will be put out there in recruiting.

 

[DieHard_Irish]

read it again. you'll agree with me because you are generally objective. It is not about 'judgement' but decision making. that

the crux of it is that, given the possibility or even probability that a kid might at some point 'err', do you want the draconian approach or the excessively lienant approach?

Bama: slap on the wrist
ND: maxed out

Clearly kids screw up at both universities.

This is something that will be put out there in recruiting.

So ND is suppose to review and adjudicate The breaking of its published rules based the relative impact it may have on recruiting? Is that what your point is?

 

[Toby Smart]

Do we really need trustees to weigh in on student discipline? I don't think so.

Why not? We are. Everyone has an opinion on the matter I would presume. I don't know what kind of power they hold, if any. I don't even know what their duties are. Keep in mind, it was The Score reporting it. Who knows where those fools got their info.

 

[theskibro]

and as expected, lacking intellectual capability, the inevitable personal attack. And right after touting that he knew Micah 6:8.
what's your next post? "nah na na na"

I recently began to wonder how representative this forum is as a sample of a typical ND fan. I have to hope you are atypical.

the diameter of that thing you sit on just keeps getting bigger and since all you do is sit and post, it must be the biggest ever no knowledge of football no knowledge

why don't you go away? no other job or hobbies?

 

[perseverare]

the diameter of that thing you sit on just keeps getting bigger and since all you do is sit and post, it must be the biggest ever no knowledge of football no knowledge

why don't you go away? no other job or hobbies?

why do you read it? you will never learn anything!

 

[Walruzz]

 

[Johnnie82]

Per the NotreDame student handbook, a felony charge grants the Univ. "the right to take summary action & temporarily dismiss the student."
It does not say they are automatically, permanently dismissed. Although in this case he is probably gone.

University spokesman Paul Browne issued a statement Tuesday saying: ''Students charged criminally are subject to additional sanctions by the university, separately from any imposed by athletic teams or other extracurricular activities.'' He previously had said any student arrested on a felony charge also faces dismissal from the university.

 

[twalsh]

it is about football players and prospects, not general students. (parent perspective)

read it again. you'll agree with me because you are generally objective. It is not about 'judgement' but decision making. that

the crux of it is that, given the possibility or even probability that a kid might at some point 'err', do you want the draconian approach or the excessively lienant approach?

Bama: slap on the wrist
ND: maxed out

Clearly kids screw up at both universities.

This is something that will be put out there in recruiting.

Remember the debilitating effect the frozen five was going to have on recruiting? How'd that work out?

 

[Toby Smart]

One thing that I have noticed through all this is the great reviews ND and BK are getting from the media for their quick and decisive decisions. When you do that, it should send a strong message to the rest. But, with that in mind, ND could have had Tom Brady as it's team leader preaching behavior during down time and the ND Six would have still gone on their selfish merry way with the same end result. Kudos to BK.

 

[IRISHJD98]

^ and that has yo be the continued policy. We have not heard much 'mercy' coming out on here the past 2 days.

For some of us non divine humans, reconciliation is a process that doesn't always operate on a convenient timetable - not only for those needing to receive forgiveness and compassion, but those who need to give it.

 

[bizzybecknd]

so how about you summarize the RGK's who became WKG's over the last 6+ years?
How many players became the subject of disciplinary and/or legal action?

Think about it, ND is where parents want to send the kids because they expect standards to be higher, guidance provided to be successful in life. But look what happens, the standards are so excellent and expectations such that 'reversal of fortune' come at you quite quickly.
Now these young men are either at a crossroads or they are banished and 'tainted'. That is because ND has standards of expectation. ND will survive just fine. The kids?

Now consider Bama. Same offenses or worse and a slap on the wrist. Life, career and futures go on almost w/o interuption.

Sure there are consequences to bad behavior but done at 19?

Remember Gene Shepard? he told a story of a kid at his high school graduation; the kid called out to recieve his diploma turned his back to the audiance and mooned the entire gathering.
Shepard noted, essentially the kids life was done at that moment; nothing he would ever do would rival that moment!

So you don't think there is a recruiting issue there? Would you want to send your kid to an 'all or nothing' situation? These events will be discussed with parents and recruits. They will hear, here at xyz U we have your kids back! we ain't gonna just just turn our back.

I'm not sure I'd consider two felonies an 'all or nothing situation". As many have stated, many players have gotten second chances. All it takes is 5 minutes for somebody with an unscathed record, perfect citizen, to become a felon and somebody who should be punished.

How about the other side of the coin - as a parent of a committed recruit from 2018 still in high school, I'd have a much bigger problem with these kids staying in school and on the team with the potential of my child hanging out with alleged felons and gun toting kids doing illegal drugs.

 

[sshulk]

When I went to ND I was given a copy of du Lac and told to read it and take it seriously. this is not make it up as we go territory. Let the university process and rules prevail - no one can claim it's a surprise, it's all written down.
Let's not forget the primary mission is to run a university not a football team.

 

[perseverare]

For some of us non divine humans, reconciliation is a process that doesn't always operate on a convenient timetable - not only for those needing to receive forgiveness and compassion, but those who need to give it.

D98

I am sure those that want their pound of flesh will get by the time the punishments are dolled out.

Consider this, what if the group had not been stopped on the way to campus and it was biz as usual the next day? Would they be RKG's or WKG's ? What if they then had continued on to graduate, w/o further incidents? They had done the deed! But:

I have said I agree with the staff swift's-decisive decisions as pertains to football; but now qualify that as measuring it within the ND administrative proceedures, rules and attitudes.
JMO: Max may have maxed out out his 2nd chances; but let's wait for police reports on the others with the hopes that minimally they continue in the education process.

My points (Howard?):
1. giving up on young men at such early age is not the solution
2. this will be discussed by recruitors, parents, and prospects. JMO, this should be a major consideration in the decision process: "what if?" because at the top of the football food chain these kids consider 'football' their major and chosen profession; they want to know that they will not be denied every opportunity.

 

[IRISHJD98]

D98

I am sure those that want their pound of flesh will get by the time the punishments are dolled out.

Consider this, what if the group had not been stopped on the way to campus and it was biz as usual the next day? Would they be RKG's or WKG's ? What if they then had continued on to graduate, w/o further incidents? They had done the deed! But:

I have said I agree with the staff swift's-decisive decisions as pertains to football; but now qualify that as measuring it within the ND administrative proceedures, rules and attitudes.
JMO: Max may have maxed out out his 2nd chances; but let's wait for police reports on the others with the hopes that minimally they continue in the education process.

My points (Howard?):
1. giving up on young men at such early age is not the solution
2. this will be discussed by recruitors, parents, and prospects. JMO, this should be a major consideration in the decision process: "what if?" because at the top of the football food chain these kids consider 'football' their major and chosen profession; they want to know that they will not be denied every opportunity.

I don't think that (potential) dismissal is equal to giving up on these young men. As posters have repeatedly pointed out, the university has remained open the return of many, many athletes. Dismissal is rarely eternal, unless a player decides its too inconvenient to endure. There's a very long history of allowing players to return after a year suspension - and not just the stuff in recent years. Sometimes students need a temporary, but not eternal, separation from the university so they can reflect. Its not about a pound of flesh. Its about giving the help they really need to get themselves reordered. Personally, I think each player needs to be considered individually with the light of more developed facts. But ultimately they should be treated like any other student - no special indulgence for any lost football privileges. In Butler's case, ND dismissed Mahone for what appears to be a remarkably similar incident that also occurred in the summer and then didn't let him enroll after felony charges were filed. If ND treats Butler differently, it will be hard to explain. IMO, the perception of being consistently tough on discipline is manageable. The perception of acting arbitrarily is not.

I absolutely disagree with your second point, which you frequently push on this board. It demonstrates a very low opinion of high profile athletes. Are they being recruited from prisons? Why should worrying about getting suspended for cheating, fighting a cop, or running around with guns and drugs be a "major consideration" for these guys? If I'm a parent playing the "what if" game, I'm worried about "what if" my kid blows out a knee, or shoulder, or gets repeatedly concussed and can't play anymore. I'd question why you think my kid is going to become a thug at your school.

As to your RKG v. WKG hypothetical, obviously we wouldn't question our opinions if we never learned of any reason to question them. In the present instance, however, I don't think its our question to answer. I think its up to each of these young men to answer - with their actions - whether they are RKG's. And that includes accepting inconvenient consequences for failing to meet expectations placed on all members of the student body plus those of their teammates and demonstrating a committment to change.

 

[cgvr]

Yes, it would be tremendously out of character for any sector of our society to have a small group of rich, privileged people calling the shots.

Yep, but in ND's case it is not that group....

 

[cgvr]

One thing that I have noticed through all this is the great reviews ND and BK are getting from the media for their quick and decisive decisions. When you do that, it should send a strong message to the rest. But, with that in mind, ND could have had Tom Brady as it's team leader preaching behavior during down time and the ND Six would have still gone on their selfish merry way with the same end result. Kudos to BK.

Please link an article/account. The LA Times and other media outlets have done nothing of the sort.