Jason La Canfora CBS Article regarding Kizers draft slide

[Irish2684]

Did anyone read this article? It basically made it seem that Kizer slid out of the first round because NFL execs didn't like the way former ND teammates spoke of Kizer. Said when players from ND were being interviewed and were asked about Kizer that nobody got excited about him.

I'm throwing a theory out here that could be way off base but it seems to make a bit of sense as to why last year was such a bad year. The ND players that were being interviewed had to be outgoing seniors that were most likely either recruited with Zaire or at least closer to his recruiting class than they were to Kizers recruitment. Is it possible that these players held a grudge against Kizer because he beat out Zaire for the QB spot? If this was in fact the case then the leadership coming from these upperclassmen was probably pretty poor which it actually seemed to be last year. Something like this could absolutely affect the chemistry of a team.

I'm a big Zaire fan and hope he does well wherever he lands but he was given every opportunity to win the job and he didn't. I didn't like the way he conducted himself on the sidelines last year after losing the job. He seemed to have an attitude of not caring what was going on in the game and wasn't willing to help Kizer out at all.

Maybe I'm reading too much into this but it seems to add up in my head as a potential piece of why things were so bad last year and maybe a look into why Kizer got out of there the moment he could.

 

[echowaker]

Did anyone read this article? It basically made it seem that Kizer slid out of the first round because NFL execs didn't like the way former ND teammates spoke of Kizer. Said when players from ND were being interviewed and were asked about Kizer that nobody got excited about him.

I'm throwing a theory out here that could be way off base but it seems to make a bit of sense as to why last year was such a bad year. The ND players that were being interviewed had to be outgoing seniors that were most likely either recruited with Zaire or at least closer to his recruiting class than they were to Kizers recruitment. Is it possible that these players held a grudge against Kizer because he beat out Zaire for the QB spot? If this was in fact the case then the leadership coming from these upperclassmen was probably pretty poor which it actually seemed to be last year. Something like this could absolutely affect the chemistry of a team.

I'm a big Zaire fan and hope he does well wherever he lands but he was given every opportunity to win the job and he didn't. I didn't like the way he conducted himself on the sidelines last year after losing the job. He seemed to have an attitude of not caring what was going on in the game and wasn't willing to help Kizer out at all.

Maybe I'm reading too much into this but it seems to add up in my head as a potential piece of why things were so bad last year and maybe a look into why Kizer got out of there the moment he could.

There did seem to be a huge disconnect within the program last year. That falls on the head coach. Hopefully that has been resolved.

 

[South Bender]

Kizer was projected to be the 2nd or 3rd QB off the board. He was the 3rd selected. I don't see this as surprising. Middle of the second round isn't really a slide.

Your notion of what other players said about Kizer doesn't really hold water either. Same goes for what Kelly said pre-draft about DK. Let's suppose Kelly had nothing but high praise for DK, and said he should be the first pick in the draft. Let's suppose Kizer's teammates speak highly of their QB and spew compliments left and right. Do you think this would've made Kizer a high 1st round draft choice?? Of course not. No one cares what other people say!!! Teams do their own evaluations.

Kizer was drafted right where he should've been drafted. No coaches, no parents, no teammates, no grandma's, no childhood friend's or priest's "comments" would have changed that. His combine, pro day and play on the field dictated his draft stock.

 

[perseverare]

If Kizer goes on to have a successful NFL career, JMO, more will come out about the pre draft shananagans by his former head coach.

 

[theskibro]

If Kizer goes on to have a successful NFL career, JMO, more will come out about the pre draft shananagans by his former head coach.

I ascribe to the single bullet theory that Kelly was the lone assassin versus the conspiracy theory of multiple bullets from his team mates. We may never know as files are sealed for years but I can live with that

Then there is a novel theory that Kizer alone is responsible for his slow spiraling slide. Hmmm

 

[Irish2684]

Kizer was projected to be the 2nd or 3rd QB off the board. He was the 3rd selected. I don't see this as surprising. Middle of the second round isn't really a slide.

Your notion of what other players said about Kizer doesn't really hold water either. Same goes for what Kelly said pre-draft about DK. Let's suppose Kelly had nothing but high praise for DK, and said he should be the first pick in the draft. Let's suppose Kizer's teammates speak highly of their QB and spew compliments left and right. Do you think this would've made Kizer a high 1st round draft choice?? Of course not. No one cares what other people say!!! Teams do their own evaluations.

Kizer was drafted right where he should've been drafted. No coaches, no parents, no teammates, no grandma's, no childhood friend's or priest's "comments" would have changed that. His combine, pro day and play on the field dictated his draft stock.

Please go read the article because it disagrees with what you say about teammates words of Kizer and players being drafted in general. Here are a few pieces from the article.

Per La Canfora. "I spoke to execs from several teams that drafted a quarterback in this process and heard the same thing time and again as to why Kizer, the projected first overall pick back in September when the season began, fell out of the first round entirely. The more time some teams spent with him and the more work they did on him, it gave them pause."

it Continued. "When you brought in kids from that school and you asked them about Kizer, no one ever really got excited. It wasn't like, "He's the man! That's my guy! You ask Clemson kids about Watson, and it's like, That's our dog! He is our leader. We'd do anything for that guy. You talk to kids from UNC about Trubisky and it was the same thing. But with Kizer it was like, "He's a cool guy."

I'm not hear debating Kizer as a player and where he should have been drafted. I'm more hitting on the point of something that could have affected last years team. I feel these older players were upset that Kizer was the QB and they let it affect the chemistry of last years team. There was definitely something off with that team.

 

[perseverare]

^ it wasn't just at QB, recruits spoke of the overall atmosphere among players/staff.

There were real problems with espirit de corp on that Kelly coached team. It was more like anarchy reigned.
If leadership fails that is what you get. Fans read stories about their head coach looking around at every turn. Do you think that was lost on the players? Do you think those rumors or news blurbs helped promote team pride or unity? Do you think disgruntled parents and players lend to cohesion in the clubhouse?
And the when there seems no accountability, matters fester.
At this point it may all turn out out to be of little consequence,

 

[scubastevefl]

If they were outgoing teammates they were guys who couldn't get drafted themselves.

I think the NFL draft process has gotten stupid, and probably been stupid for years. I imagine Brady Quinn's teammates glowed about him, he didn't pan out. I'm sure NFL draft busts are littered with guys who's teammates loved them. Kazier can either play in this league or he can't, that will decide things.

 

[john0gaunt]

Early in the draft cycle this year, there was a report with issues of "character."

I'm sure Kelly received assurances from DK that he would be returning this year, otherwise no way he's the starting QB. So that assurance would also be taken by his teammates. Then he declares for the draft in order to take full advantage of his ability to earn.

BW would have been starting a few games last year, and this team would have a returning starter at QB this year.

Don't mean to trash the kid, but there were posts here referencing the character thing. Just responding to the OP's question. I don't know his personal situation and it may have changed in the last year or 2. But no way DK starts all year last year if Kelly knew he would leave. He must have also made those assurances with the other players.

I suppose he did really well in the draft considering his college accomplishments.

 

[perseverare]

for DK's sake: I am happy for him to have escaped this environment. Even now you can sense the atmosphere. A team or organization will reflect it's leadership from top down.

The kid will now succeed or fail on his own merits. He is in the NFL. Hopefully he does not need to play in 17/18; because his college coach failed to properly prepare him. He needs a developmental period.

 

[South Bender]

If Kizer goes on to have a successful NFL career, JMO, more will come out about the pre draft shananagans by his former head coach.

So, in 5-10 years, it's determined that Kizer had a "successful NFL career", then you can say "I told you so"???

Your preconceived notions on Kelly are clouding your judgment.

Kelly never said Kizer suck or wouldn't "eventually" be a good NFL QB. He said he'd benefit from another year in college. Said he needed more time to develop a bit more.
Christ, never did he say Kizer won't be any good as a pro!!

Don't let facts get in the way of your witch hunt.

 

[perseverare]

you misinterpret my comment. In time people tend to give up information. That is my implication.

oddly, in private business a former employer would not say anything not deemed as positive of a former EE.
The most they can confirm is employment/ employment dates as being valid.

But Kelly's comments went beyond what would advisable for edifying not just DK but himself also.
I imagine while GM's appreciated the candor, they must have hung up thinking, WOW, whata #%}+.
And if that is so, that would 'make the rounds'.
We won't know but....

(ND did NOT go 4-8 because I am not a fan if Kelly)

 

[IRISHJD98]

Is it possible that these players held a grudge against Kizer because he beat out Zaire for the QB spot?

The CBS article didn't suggest any sort of bad feelings by teammates toward Kizer. Just a lack of enthusiasm from his teammates compared with other quarterbacks in the draft.

Of course that shouldn't be surprising because "lack of enthusiasm" was pretty much the 2016 team's identity.

 

[twalsh]

But Kelly's comments went beyond what would advisable for edifying not just DK but himself also.
I imagine while GM's appreciated the candor, they must have hung up thinking, WOW, whata #%}+.
And if that is so, that would 'make the rounds'.
We won't know but....

How do you have even the slightest idea on what Kelly may or may not have said to NFL GMs about Kizer?

 

[Howard Hall 74]

There did seem to be a huge disconnect within the program last year. That falls on the head coach. Hopefully that has been resolved.

Yes, the head coach, but never underestimate the importance of the leadership of a senior class. Show me a great group of seniors and you will find a successful environment and successful team. We didn't have it last year. Kelly is also the one who sets the tenor and tone of the team. Which explains a disappointing 7 year run as HC. Kizer did what he should have, got out before Kelly and his toxic coaching style destroyed him.

 

[Irishjohn68]

If Kizer goes on to have a successful NFL career, JMO, more will come out about the pre draft shananagans by his former head coach.

You'll say anything to try and make BK look bad. Why so negative all the time?

 

[perseverare]

I can't make Kelly look negative. He says things, does things and then the off and on field results are what tells. What is you opinion of that evaluation?

Has ND 's program improved or declined under the Kelly tenure.

Recruiting fallacy: RR>=6.0
ND USC tOSU UM SU Clem FSU Bama
'13 1 9 6 4 0 2 5 12
'14 1 3 7 1 2 3 3 10
'15 1 10 4 0 1 5 6 9
'16 3 4 4 3 3 4 6 7
tot 6 26 21 8 6 14 20 38

 

[twalsh]

I can't make Kelly look negative. He says things, does things and then the off and on field results are what tells. What is you opinion of that evaluation?

Has ND 's program improved or declined under the Kelly tenure.

Recruiting fallacy: RR>=6.0
ND USC tOSU UM SU Clem FSU Bama
'13 1 9 6 4 0 2 5 12
'14 1 3 7 1 2 3 3 10
'15 1 10 4 0 1 5 6 9
'16 3 4 4 3 3 4 6 7
tot 6 26 21 8 6 14 20 38

As a program we are significantly better than we were in 2009.

 

[Irishjohn68]

I can't make Kelly look negative. He says things, does things and then the off and on field results are what tells. What is you opinion of that evaluation?

Has ND 's program improved or declined under the Kelly tenure.

Recruiting fallacy: RR>=6.0
ND USC tOSU UM SU Clem FSU Bama
'13 1 9 6 4 0 2 5 12
'14 1 3 7 1 2 3 3 10
'15 1 10 4 0 1 5 6 9
'16 3 4 4 3 3 4 6 7
tot 6 26 21 8 6 14 20 38

Look it's Negative Nelly!

 

[Bumpdaddy]

...it Continued. "When you brought in kids from that school and you asked them about Kizer, no one ever really got excited. It wasn't like, "He's the man! That's my guy! You ask Clemson kids about Watson, and it's like, That's our dog! He is our leader. We'd do anything for that guy. You talk to kids from UNC about Trubisky and it was the same thing. But with Kizer it was like, "He's a cool guy."

I'm not hear debating Kizer as a player and where he should have been drafted. I'm more hitting on the point of something that could have affected last years team. I feel these older players were upset that Kizer was the QB and they let it affect the chemistry of last years team. There was definitely something off with that team.

Those older players had already spent the entire previous year with Kizer at the helm and they enjoyed a lot of success. Regardless of their feelings for Zaire I don't think any of them would have carried some kind of resentment toward Kizer heading into last season. That possibility seems extremely unlikely. I'm sure some players liked Zaire more as a person but, considering the season Kizer had in 2015, I don't think any of them were upset when Kizer was finally named the starter for 2016. Besides, you seem to be missing the main point. How could Kizer, or Zaire for that matter, be "the man" or "our leader" after BK decided to prolong the QB competition into the season even after Kizer proved to be better at moving the offense? It's very hard to be the man when multiple voices are being heard behind center and on the sidelines.

As others in this thread have pointed out, 2016 was a team failure and only one person can be responsible for a team failure - the head coach. When a few players under-perform the fault likely falls on those individual players, but when an entire team under-performs it's always on the head coach. BK has said so himself. All of the off-season changes we've seen point to a massive coaching failure, and many of the changes are a response to the exit interviews BK did with all the players after the season ended. Players were saying things like, "we weren't pushed" and "Coach Kelly wasn't around much." They weren't putting the blame on Kizer. In fact, if the players and coaching staff were to list all the reasons the team went 4-8, Kizer's name would likely appear last on that list. How do we know? Because Kizer was actually named team MVP at the end of the year banquet last year and he was named team captain for 2017 before he declared for the draft. You don't do that with a player who has 2 years of eligibility left if he fails to inspire enthusiasm.

I've seen a lot of piling on Kizer in these threads recently (I'm not singling you out) and I think it's unfounded. The offense and Kizer weren't the primary reasons the team went 4-8 last year. BK has admitted he was the reason. All evidence was pointing to that fact even if he hadn't said it. His lack of leadership is the reason why almost all the players under-performed in 2016 and yet the only player that seems to be scrutinized is Kizer.

Yes, Kizer didn't perform as well as expected but the same can be said about almost every other player. We know the reason why. It was a massive coaching failure. That's all there was to it.

 

[perseverare]

GEEZ

what a great post! it is virtually irrefutable

 

[echowaker]

Never undersell what a poor combine and inconsistencies on film can do to ones draft status.

 

[IRISHJD98]

Never undersell what a poor combine and inconsistencies on film can do to ones draft status.

No, no no. It doesn't work like that. All that really matters is what your coach says about you.

Haven't you been paying attention?

 

[echowaker]

Those older players had already spent the entire previous year with Kizer at the helm and they enjoyed a lot of success. Regardless of their feelings for Zaire I don't think any of them would have carried some kind of resentment toward Kizer heading into last season. That possibility seems extremely unlikely. I'm sure some players liked Zaire more as a person but, considering the season Kizer had in 2015, I don't think any of them were upset when Kizer was finally named the starter for 2016. Besides, you seem to be missing the main point. How could Kizer, or Zaire for that matter, be "the man" or "our leader" after BK decided to prolong the QB competition into the season even after Kizer proved to be better at moving the offense? It's very hard to be the man when multiple voices are being heard behind center and on the sidelines.

As others in this thread have pointed out, 2016 was a team failure and only one person can be responsible for a team failure - the head coach. When a few players under-perform the fault likely falls on those individual players, but when an entire team under-performs it's always on the head coach. BK has said so himself. All of the off-season changes we've seen point to a massive coaching failure, and many of the changes are a response to the exit interviews BK did with all the players after the season ended. Players were saying things like, "we weren't pushed" and "Coach Kelly wasn't around much." They weren't putting the blame on Kizer. In fact, if the players and coaching staff were to list all the reasons the team went 4-8, Kizer's name would likely appear last on that list. How do we know? Because Kizer was actually named team MVP at the end of the year banquet last year and he was named team captain for 2017 before he declared for the draft. You don't do that with a player who has 2 years of eligibility left if he fails to inspire enthusiasm.

I've seen a lot of piling on Kizer in these threads recently (I'm not singling you out) and I think it's unfounded. The offense and Kizer weren't the primary reasons the team went 4-8 last year. BK has admitted he was the reason. All evidence was pointing to that fact even if he hadn't said it. His lack of leadership is the reason why almost all the players under-performed in 2016 and yet the only player that seems to be scrutinized is Kizer.

Yes, Kizer didn't perform as well as expected but the same can be said about almost every other player. We know the reason why. It was a massive coaching failure. That's all there was to it.

Funny how in all this kizer talk how mike Sanford gets a pass here. No one spent more time with the qbs than him. Both regressed with Sanford running the room.

 

[perseverare]

Still waiting for D98's complete evaluation of the Kelly tenure
W/L
Leadership
Recruiting
Control
Game planing and management
Staff building
Player development

?

Why the 'blind faith'

 

[perseverare]

Funny how in all this kizer talk how mike Sanford gets a pass here. No one spent more time with the qbs than him. Both regressed with Sanford running the room.

Well Sanford had Kizer ready to do the job in '15. And the inept game plans and intra game adjustment were really the weaknesses. And Sanford had the class to have Kizer's back pre draft.
Kelly is the guy in control on a Kelly staff; you see it in his every move.
Someone is going under the bus in '17; who is best guess?

 

[perseverare]

Look it's Negative Nelly!

and it's you only way to excuse Kelly: name calling.

here is your real problem: actuality and the truth will find you out.

 

[Bumpdaddy]

Funny how in all this kizer talk how mike Sanford gets a pass here. No one spent more time with the qbs than him. Both regressed with Sanford running the room.

I get your point, but when there is a massive failure like a 4-8 season the head coach is still responsible because he's the one who oversees the assistants. Same premise. If only 1 phase of the program or 1 or 2 position groups struggled then maybe an assistant or two was at fault, but when it's all 3 phases and virtually every position group then it has to be the head coach. That's not to say all the assistants were carrying their weight. I think Booker and Longo definitely needed to be replaced regardless, but when they all struggle it goes beyond the individual assistants.

 

[Pennick44]

There was much scuttlebutt about Kizer not being popular with his team mates. Clearly they wanted Zaire at the helm.

 

[bizzybecknd]

Still waiting for D98's complete evaluation of the Kelly tenure
W/L
Leadership
Recruiting
Control
Game planing and management
Staff building
Player development

?

Why the 'blind faith'

You continue to hi-Jack every thread with your agenda. You have failed to address the topic here and have somehow managed to inject your usual 6.0 RR theory that you've posted here almost 30 thousand times. It's so tired, give it up.

The question was do you think the team was behind Zaire not Kizer last year?

 

[perseverare]

"...Maybe I'm reading too much into this but it seems to add up in my head as a potential piece of why things were so bad last year and maybe a look into why Kizer got out of there the moment he could."


it seems the 'why' was the matter for discussion. and several references to Kelly's responsiblities as team leader..
can you show that limitation in the OP's statement?

And show the sentence identifying that question?

You just don't like having the facts presented.

Every thing I raised can be taken from the OP.

You are hi-jacking the thread to avoid the discussions.

I keep waiting to read why some fans have given absolution to Kelly?
What is it that makes them zealous Kelly fans (the family member posters aside).
What has he accomplished that earns this kind of devotion?
I get no answer, just get responses with name calling or profane diatribe.

 

[echowaker]

I get your point, but when there is a massive failure like a 4-8 season the head coach is still responsible because he's the one who oversees the assistants. Same premise. If only 1 phase of the program or 1 or 2 position groups struggled then maybe an assistant or two was at fault, but when it's all 3 phases and virtually every position group then it has to be the head coach. That's not to say all the assistants were carrying their weight. I think Booker and Longo definitely needed to be replaced regardless, but when they all struggle it goes beyond the individual assistants.

I agree that last year
Is on Kelly. No doubt. Van gorder and other coaches got heat, why not Sanford ?

 

[echowaker]

Well Sanford had Kizer ready to do the job in '15. And the inept game plans and intra game adjustment were really the weaknesses. And Sanford had the class to have Kizer's back pre draft.
Kelly is the guy in control on a Kelly staff; you see it in his every move.
Someone is going under the bus in '17; who is best guess?

So when things went well it was because of Sanford but when they didn't t he is absolved. You do know that Sanford helped develop those same game plans you call inept. Wow, is your agenda showing.

 

[Pennick44]

I agree that last year
Is on Kelly. No doubt. Van gorder and other coaches got heat, why not Sanford ?

95 percent on Kelly. Regarding Sanford, has their ever been a coach who has done virtually nothing that has had such accolades? Imagine some wanting him to be the head coach at ND with such little experience or achievement.

 

[IRISHJD98]

I keep waiting to read why some fans have given absolution to Kelly?
What is it that makes them zealous Kelly fans (the family member posters aside).
What has he accomplished that earns this kind of devotion?
I get no answer, just get responses with name calling or profane diatribe.

Its almost like people don't recognize your supreme authority.

 

[MTIrish98]

32 teams passed on DK at least once. There are probably at least 10 different reasons.

 

[bizzybecknd]

"...Maybe I'm reading too much into this but it seems to add up in my head as a potential piece of why things were so bad last year and maybe a look into why Kizer got out of there the moment he could."


it seems the 'why' was the matter for discussion. and several references to Kelly's responsiblities as team leader..
can you show that limitation in the OP's statement?

And show the sentence identifying that question?

You just don't like having the facts presented.

Every thing I raised can be taken from the OP.

You are hi-jacking the thread to avoid the discussions.

I keep waiting to read why some fans have given absolution to Kelly?
What is it that makes them zealous Kelly fans (the family member posters aside).
What has he accomplished that earns this kind of devotion?
I get no answer, just get responses with name calling or profane diatribe.

This isn't about what BK has accomplished. I think the OP is asking if the ND locker room was divided and Zaire had the majority of the support. It is a valid question and there is no doubt that all things fall on BK at the end of the day, but interesting quotes from the GM's stating there was a lack of excitement in talking to Kizer's teammates not to mention a few who called him a prima Donna.

Every topic ends with your copy and paste of BK is inept and RR are below 6.0 and not all 4 stars are created equal. You are unable to have a conversation without that ammo. Get some new material, we understand your points, 30,000 times over.

 

[dohster]

just wish him success.. honestly there are just way too many factors why he wasn't picked in the first round... just want to move on...fresh new players bring new excitement... exactly what we need now... I'm not sure if others feel the same... but I'm actually feeling burned out with the program....oh well...

 

[chitown sot]

There did seem to be a huge disconnect within the program last year. That falls on the head coach. Hopefully that has been resolved.

It will be resolved when bk goes bye-bye.

 

[shooter1977]

QB is the one position that goes beyond measurables. Guys like Brady Quinn and Rees won a high percentage of games and from everything we've heard, their teammates would have run through a wall for them. Clausen and Kizer had talent but it just never clicked.