Hindsight is 20/20 but what if....

[88ND]

What if Rees had committed...I mean trully committed to power football like Saturday night.
In other words using a QB effectively instead of trying to make them something they aren't and throwing for 300.

Do we beat OSU?
Are we 9-0?

Estime was making the secondary already have shy alligator arms by the 2nd quarter...

We know what happened but what if...

 

[chaseball]

What if Rees had committed...I mean trully committed to power football like Saturday night.
In other words using a QB effectively instead of trying to make them something they aren't and throwing for 300.

Do we beat OSU?
Are we 9-0?

Estime was making the secondary already have shy alligator arms by the 2nd quarter...

We know what happened but what if...

Rees wants to throw the ball around and put up a bunch of points. He came up in that spread high octane offense. The fact that he's had to do a complete 180 after the Buchner injury, and go full bore smashmouth from a pass-first spread, and then have a lot of success on top, is really impressive. I'm frankly shocked with what he's been able to do with a 5'10 back up QB, no WRs, and 2-3 average P5 running backs.

Rees is wringing every drop of production he can out of an offense that basically has an O-line, a TE, and not much else.

 

[BaldyNd]

It’s hard to say because the o line wasn’t performing as well in the first 3 games, and was mediocre against Stanford. It’s not like we were pounding the ball down the field and then stopping.

 

[BaldyNd]

Rees wants to throw the ball around and put up a bunch of points. He came up in that spread high octane offense. The fact that he's had to do a complete 180 after the Buchner injury, and go full bore smashmouth from a pass-first spread, and then have a lot of success on top, is really impressive. I'm really impressed with what he's been able to do with a 5'10 back up QB, no WRs, and 2-3 average P5 running backs.

Rees is getting every drop of value and production out of this o-line that he can. It's impressive.

Estime is above average and Diggs and tyree might be too

 

[chaseball]

Estime is above average and Diggs and tyree might be too

I think our O-line is making these running backs look way better than they are. The holes that were open against Clemson, anybody could run through those.

 

[Golson5]

Rees wants to throw the ball around and put up a bunch of points. He came up in that spread high octane offense. The fact that he's had to do a complete 180 after the Buchner injury, and go full bore smashmouth from a pass-first spread, and then have a lot of success on top, is really impressive. I'm frankly shocked with what he's been able to do with a 5'10 back up QB, no WRs, and 2-3 average P5 running backs.

Rees is wringing every drop of production he can out of an offense that basically has an O-line, a TE, and not much else.

Estime is a stud

 

[BaldyNd]

I think our O-line is making these running backs look way better than they are. The holes that were open against Clemson, anybody could run through those.

And when a guy touches estime he drags them for another 5 yards. That’s not an average running back.

 

[savvyandsassier]

The only reason we're running as much as we are is because of Pyne. And Pyne had big games vs UNC and BYU. And we ran the ball plenty vs tOSU and didn't win.

If we commit to the running game the way you guys pine for, and turn back the clock to a simpler gentler time when people knew their place and didn't challenge authority, and disputes were settled with brute force and not fancy lawyers....

It will be out of necessity and desperation, a la 2017. And as soon we get a better QB we're going to start lighting up the airwaves again. So enjoy it while it lasts....

 

[Kelso86]

What if Rees had committed...I mean trully committed to power football like Saturday night.
In other words using a QB effectively instead of trying to make them something they aren't and throwing for 300.

Do we beat OSU?
Are we 9-0?

Estime was making the secondary already have shy alligator arms by the 2nd quarter...

We know what happened but what if...

"What if Rees had committed...I mean trully committed to power football like Saturday night.
In other words using a QB effectively instead of trying to make them something they aren't and throwing for 300.

Do we beat OSU?
Are we 9-0?"

Excellent thought process - my guess would be 8-1 -- I still don't think ND beats OSU, but the score may have been tighter (even though ND's defense had some gaffes that game, they have played played OSU the toughest). Everyone else -- absolutely.

 

[ftnfan62]

At OSU they had 30 carries for 2.5 yards on average. Tyree was the only back over 2.3 yards per carry including the QB. There was no running with this team through Games 1, 2 and 3. The OL has massively improved.

If they committed solely to the run, OSU would have been 21-3, Marshall would have been worse, and we would have lost against Cal. We were terrible at run and pass blocking games 1 and 2.

 

[chaseball]

And when a guy touches estime he drags them for another 5 yards. That’s not an average running back.

The offensive line is dominating the LOS so hard lately that nobody is touching Estime until he's in the 2nd and 3rd levels of the defense. This is why I never understood NDs lack of ability to get blue-chip RBs. Who doesn't want to run behind an offensive line full of stars and future NFL players in college football?

When you are as big as Estime and the opposing defense is not touching you until your 3/4/5+ yards down the field, you're going to be able to drag those DBs and LBs forward.

Estime looks like a solid back, and is a good compliment to Diggs and Tyree, but he's not producing the way he is without running behind NDs rapidly emerging elite O-line.

 

[88ND]

At OSU they had 30 carries for 2.5 yards on average. Tyree was the only back over 2.3 yards per carry including the QB. There was no running with this team through Games 1, 2 and 3. The OL has massively improved.

If they committed solely to the run, OSU would have been 21-3, Marshall would have been worse, and we would have lost against Cal. We were terrible at run and pass blocking games 1 and 2.

The offensive line is dominating the LOS so hard lately that nobody is touching Estime until he's in the 2nd and 3rd levels of the defense. This is why I never understood NDs lack of ability to get blue-chip RBs. Who doesn't want to run behind an offensive line full of stars and future NFL players in college football?

When you are as big as Estime and the opposing defense is not touching you until your 3/4/5+ yards down the field, you're going to be able to drag those DBs and LBs forward.

Estime looks like a solid back, and is a good compliment to Diggs and Tyree, but he's not producing the way he is without running behind NDs rapidly emerging elite O-line.

You both apparently don't understand a few things.
I mean no disrespect with that....

See you're pointing to what the backs did against OSU while Rees was trying to be balanced with a QB who can't throw.

The running was straight ahead. Tyree had a couple perimter runs but it was just running plays to have running plays.

Against Clemson it was a complete commitment to power football and utilizing Pyne to run effectively at times instead of trying to run for 150 and throw for 300.

Misdirection, heavy formations etc is committing to power football.

I'm sorry but there was no creativity to our running game early on. It was robotic and scripted.

If you can't see the devoted cosching effort focusing on power football the last two games then you don't want or know how to see it.

 

[scubastevefl]

Chase, I disagree that our RB’s are “average” your as good as your o-line, and our o-line is pretty freakin good.

OP, this team has improved a lot in 9 weeks, we all knew there were question marks all over the roster. New coaching staff.

After 20 years of spread football, it’s a nice change of pace to see 3 yards a cloud of dust and some huddling.

 

[Golson5]

The offensive line is dominating the LOS so hard lately that nobody is touching Estime until he's in the 2nd and 3rd levels of the defense. This is why I never understood NDs lack of ability to get blue-chip RBs. Who doesn't want to run behind an offensive line full of stars and future NFL players in college football?

When you are as big as Estime and the opposing defense is not touching you until your 3/4/5+ yards down the field, you're going to be able to drag those DBs and LBs forward.

Estime looks like a solid back, and is a good compliment to Diggs and Tyree, but he's not producing the way he is without running behind NDs rapidly emerging elite O-line.

Estime is a very talented back. He would be good anywhere

 

[BGI User 756]

Estime is a stud

That first down on the 3rd and 13 with five minutes left was awesome

 

[HDK]

What if Rees had committed...I mean trully committed to power football like Saturday night.
In other words using a QB effectively instead of trying to make them something they aren't and throwing for 300.

Do we beat OSU?
Are we 9-0?

Estime was making the secondary already have shy alligator arms by the 2nd quarter...

We know what happened but what if...

Nope. Probably would have beaten Stanford, but not Ohio State or Marshall.

 

[ftnfan62]

I would agree if we ran it a few times and gave up, we attempted 30 runs against OSU and averaged 2.5 per carry.

When you run it 30 times and average 2.5 yards, that is a large enough sample size to know they will stop it.

Against Clemson, 30 attempts in we had enough sample size to know they struggled stopping the run.

Marshall, just shy of 40 attempts for 3.5 yards average. I could buy the argument if you saw it building, it got worse in the second half.

There is just no denying, our offensive line was pathetic the first 3 games in all aspects. We struggled against any basic blitz, we struggled running the ball, we struggled protecting our QB's.

I would ask, what if MF kicked the FG against Stanford at the 5-yard line instead of going for it on 4th and 2?

What if against Marshall we didn't have 3 picks. What if Estime doesn't fumble in FG position against Stanford?

The bottom line is we didn't coach well, run well or protect the football. I personally do not feel that is on TR.

 

[HRC08]

The offensive line is dominating the LOS so hard lately that nobody is touching Estime until he's in the 2nd and 3rd levels of the defense. This is why I never understood NDs lack of ability to get blue-chip RBs. Who doesn't want to run behind an offensive line full of stars and future NFL players in college football?

When you are as big as Estime and the opposing defense is not touching you until your 3/4/5+ yards down the field, you're going to be able to drag those DBs and LBs forward.

Estime looks like a solid back, and is a good compliment to Diggs and Tyree, but he's not producing the way he is without running behind NDs rapidly emerging elite O-line.

Chase you’re right about the oline being the biggest reason for the improved running numbers and as for the group of backs being average. Golson’s right that Estime is capable of one day becoming elite. He’s very close. A slight improvement in seeing and hitting the correct cut a split second earlier and obviously holding on to the ball is all that he needs. Remember that this is his first year.

 

[jbm19]

Nope. Probably would have beaten Stanford, but not Ohio State or Marshall.

Lost to Marshall after QB injury and pick six late . Check game .

 

[NDinNJ]

And we ran the ball plenty vs tOSU and didn't win.

It will be out of necessity and desperation, a la 2017. And as soon we get a better QB we're going to start lighting up the airwaves again. So enjoy it while it lasts....

Clueless..,
ND ran the ball just 19 times with Tyree, Diggs, and Estime vs OSU.

Against Clemson, a combined 42 carrie's by Estime, Diggs, and Tyre.

 

[NDinNJ]

I would agree if we ran it a few times and gave up, we attempted 30 runs against OSU and averaged 2.5 per carry.

When you run it 30 times and average 2.5 yards, that is a large enough sample size to know they will stop it.

Against Clemson, 30 attempts in we had enough sample size to know they struggled stopping the run.

Marshall, just shy of 40 attempts for 3.5 yards average. I could buy the argument if you saw it building, it got worse in the second half.

There is just no denying, our offensive line was pathetic the first 3 games in all aspects. We struggled against any basic blitz, we struggled running the ball, we struggled protecting our QB's.

I would ask, what if MF kicked the FG against Stanford at the 5-yard line instead of going for it on 4th and 2?

What if against Marshall we didn't have 3 picks. What if Estime doesn't fumble in FG position against Stanford?

The bottom line is we didn't coach well, run well or protect the football. I personally do not feel that is on TR.

That sampling vs OSU is skewed. Buchner ran 11 times, which means he was pressured at least 7-8 times and had to take off. ND only ran about 20-22 times in that game.

 

[NDinNJ]

Elite teams, championship teams can do both. They can run the ball well and throw the ball well. You can potentially get away with a serviceable QB that has an above average arm, is accurate, and limits his mistakes, ala Stetson Bennett. With Pyne, average to below average arm, not very accurate, but he does limit his mistakes.

 

[burmafrd1943]

Its so simple but the OP and company cannot see it


The O LINE was CRAP in the early games.

 

[Patrirish]

It’s hard to say because the o line wasn’t performing as well in the first 3 games, and was mediocre against Stanford. It’s not like we were pounding the ball down the field and then stopping.

👍

 

[Patrirish]

Its so simple but the OP and company cannot see it


The O LINE was CRAP in the early games.

👍

 

[88ND]

I would agree if we ran it a few times and gave up, we attempted 30 runs against OSU and averaged 2.5 per carry.

When you run it 30 times and average 2.5 yards, that is a large enough sample size to know they will stop it.

Against Clemson, 30 attempts in we had enough sample size to know they struggled stopping the run.

Marshall, just shy of 40 attempts for 3.5 yards average. I could buy the argument if you saw it building, it got worse in the second half.

There is just no denying, our offensive line was pathetic the first 3 games in all aspects. We struggled against any basic blitz, we struggled running the ball, we struggled protecting our QB's.

I would ask, what if MF kicked the FG against Stanford at the 5-yard line instead of going for it on 4th and 2?

What if against Marshall we didn't have 3 picks. What if Estime doesn't fumble in FG position against Stanford?

The bottom line is we didn't coach well, run well or protect the football. I personally do not feel that is on TR.

Nope. Probably would have beaten Stanford, but not Ohio State or Marshall.

Lost to Marshall after QB injury and pick six late . Check game .

It’s hard to say because the o line wasn’t performing as well in the first 3 games, and was mediocre against Stanford. It’s not like we were pounding the ball down the field and then stopping.

Again...

You're looking at this with tunnel vision. Perhaps y'all never played and or coached. Maybe neither and that is ok...

Let me explain ...

Was the game plan and the way we ran the ball different against Clemson than OSU, Marshall, Stanford? Absolutely!
Was there a different flow to it? Yes!
Did Pyne have some surprise runs?
Yes!
Was the offensive game plan against Syracuse different than that against, OSU, Marshall, Stanford? Absolutely!

Was the flow of the offense and attack similar between Syracuse and Clemson?
Most certainly was!

Now what was missing from the Syracuse/Clemson game plan?

How many 3 yard curl and sit routes did we run? Pretty much non existent.
A stupid pass pattern that's been a staple the last 12 years that makes us very easy to play against with the elites. Other teams not quite as gifted can sit on those cowardly routes because...you know...we can't help ourselves and always run those passing plays plus we don't throw deep.
I told you before that most teams the 3 yard curl and sit route is a safety valve. A last option. We throw it so much it's like our #1 option. Why? It's safe. We just happen to do it ALL the time.

Both Syracuse and Clemson gave up a late score in the air to Mayer.. correct? It's not a coincidence. We used the run and lured them up to the LOS and hit Mayer behind them. Both late in the game. Imagine that...Rees coaching to our strengths to open up another dimension. Mayer behind the Defense. Hold the phone and say it ain't so...

Before we just force fed Mayer the ball and the other stupid cowardly routes. For 12 god damn years that was our passing game staple.

See we haven't been difficult to play against for a Iong time.

I did a thread on this very thing after the OSU loss and years prior.

We lack an identity. Trying to be something is nowhere as successful as perfecting what you are naturally good at.

Marshall sat on our short pass cowardly passing routes. Why not. We don't throw deep. They gambled, sold out on those short routes and won. They played the odds Rees can't help himself and we'll continue passing afraid of failure.

So I beg to differ....

This version of Rees and a real commitment to power football we win every game but maybe one. I put a big question mark on the OSU game as a possible.

I think some of you above just don't understand how the running game works. It's a lot more to it if successful than just running forward.

Holtz ran over everybody...
but he did NOT just line up and run an A split I 44 or a B wing 33 every play...NO...

He was extremely creative with it. Counter plays and misdirections..a power I, wishbone and even the T...end arounds mixed in...
The Rocket getting a sweep from the tailback spot...

Yes the Oline is playing better but we didn't go from can't block anyone at OSU, Marshall and Stanford to not just blocking but absolutely dominating and imposing ourselves on Clemson. A very good defensive front. Much better than Stanford, Marshall and at least on par with OSU.

Rees is dedicating time and creativity with the running game. Counter plays, designed cut back runs...
Heavy formations (3 TE's) running to and away from.

Football is an 11 player team sport but this version of our running game is drastically different than the version we used the first 7 weeks of the season and 12 previous years.

I give Rees credit for finally coaching to our strengths and using creativity within the running game. It's our strength and echoing again completely demoralizing to an opponent when they give up 13 yards on a 3rd and 8 later in the game.

The last two games were vety Holtz esque and no coincidence we doninated both of them. Both teams having a great year but no match for a total comittment to man's football.

Go Irish

 

[Kelso86]

Again...

You're looking at this with tunnel vision. Perhaps y'all never played and or coached. Maybe neither and that is ok...

Let me explain ...

Was the game plan and the way we ran the ball different against Clemson than OSU, Marshall, Stanford? Absolutely!
Was there a different flow to it? Yes!
Did Pyne have some surprise runs?
Yes!
Was the offensive game plan against Syracuse different than that against, OSU, Marshall, Stanford? Absolutely!

Was the flow of the offense and attack similar between Syracuse and Clemson?
Most certainly was!

Now what was missing from the Syracuse/Clemson game plan?

How many 3 yard curl and sit routes did we run? Pretty much non existent.
A stupid pass pattern that's been a staple the last 12 years that makes us very easy to play against with the elites. Other teams not quite as gifted can sit on those cowardly routes because...you know...we can't help ourselves and always run those passing plays plus we don't throw deep.
I told you before that most teams the 3 yard curl and sit route is a safety valve. A last option. We throw it so much it's like our #1 option. Why? It's safe. We just happen to do it ALL the time.

Both Syracuse and Clemson gave up a late score in the air to Mayer.. correct? It's not a coincidence. We used the run and lured them up to the LOS and hit Mayer behind them. Both late in the game. Imagine that...Rees coaching to our strengths to open up another dimension. Mayer behind the Defense. Hold the phone and say it ain't so...

Before we just force fed Mayer the ball and the other stupid cowardly routes. For 12 god damn years that was our passing game staple.

See we haven't been difficult to play against for a Iong time.

I did a thread on this very thing after the OSU loss and years prior.

We lack an identity. Trying to be something is nowhere as successful as perfecting what you are naturally good at.

Marshall sat on our short pass cowardly passing routes. Why not. We don't throw deep. They gambled, sold out on those short routes and won. They played the odds Rees can't help himself and we'll continue passing afraid of failure.

So I beg to differ....

This version of Rees and a real commitment to power football we win every game but maybe one. I put a big question mark on the OSU game as a possible.

I think some of you above just don't understand how the running game works. It's a lot more to it if successful than just running forward.

Holtz ran over everybody...
but he did NOT just line up and run an A split I 44 or a B wing 33 every play...NO...

He was extremely creative with it. Counter plays and misdirections..a power I, wishbone and even the T...end arounds mixed in...
The Rocket getting a sweep from the tailback spot...

Yes the Oline is playing better but we didn't go from can't block anyone at OSU, Marshall and Stanford to not just blocking but absolutely dominating and imposing ourselves on Clemson. A very good defensive front. Much better than Stanford, Marshall and at least on par with OSU.

Rees is dedicating time and creativity with the running game. Counter plays, designed cut back runs...
Heavy formations (3 TE's) running to and away from.

Football is an 11 player team sport but this version of our running game is drastically different than the version we used the first 7 weeks of the season and 12 previous years.

I give Rees credit for finally coaching to our strengths and using creativity within the running game. It's our strength and echoing again completely demoralizing to an opponent when they give up 13 yards on a 3rd and 8 later in the game.

The last two games were vety Holtz esque and no coincidence we doninated both of them. Both teams having a great year but no match for a total comittment to man's football.

Go Irish

"give Rees credit for finally coaching to our strengths and using creativity within the running game. It's our strength and echoing again completely demoralizing to an opponent when they give up 13 yards on a 3rd and 8 later in the game.

The last two games were vety Holtz esque and no coincidence we doninated both of them. Both teams having a great year but no match for a total comittment to man's football."

Does Rees stay with the running game this week -- or, does he try and get Pyne to throw the ball with the various mis-matches in the passing game? You know Tommy -- lol

 

[notredamerises23]

What if Rees had committed...I mean trully committed to power football like Saturday night.
In other words using a QB effectively instead of trying to make them something they aren't and throwing for 300.

Do we beat OSU?
Are we 9-0?

Estime was making the secondary already have shy alligator arms by the 2nd quarter...

We know what happened but what if...

Brother, you went from “Rees doesn’t know what he’s doing and is a leftover from the inept Brian Kelly regime, depthchart, etc., etc.,” to “What if Rees did this earlier?”

We were a top 5ish team and the plan was to try and run and throw like every title winning team over the last I don’t know how many years has done. You cannot hope to win big regularly vs. good, very good, and great teams doing what we did vs. Syracuse and Clemson as things won’t always go our way and we need to be able to hedge agaisnt luck with a quick strike offense.

We didn‘t give up on that after OSU. Once all Expectations were gone after Marshall and Stanford, Rees changed things up and kudos to him.

 

[notredamerises23]

Elite teams, championship teams can do both. They can run the ball well and throw the ball well. You can potentially get away with a serviceable QB that has an above average arm, is accurate, and limits his mistakes, ala Stetson Bennett. With Pyne, average to below average arm, not very accurate, but he does limit his mistakes.

You’re right—no way can a team get to the playoffs let alone best two elite teams consecutively playing one way—no way. There will bound to be bad luck and other adversity that puts you behind and you will need to be able to counter that.

Also, Bennett is actually pretty good, and that UGa team had it’s own little NFL draft within itself. I could see this ND team perhaps being dominant enough to do what it did vs. Clemson throughout the season if we had another Foskey type, another Hamilton, and an Ian Book like QB.

 

[88ND]

"give Rees credit for finally coaching to our strengths and using creativity within the running game. It's our strength and echoing again completely demoralizing to an opponent when they give up 13 yards on a 3rd and 8 later in the game.

The last two games were vety Holtz esque and no coincidence we doninated both of them. Both teams having a great year but no match for a total comittment to man's football."

Does Rees stay with the running game this week -- or, does he try and get Pyne to throw the ball with the various mis-matches in the passing game? You know Tommy -- lol

I'd say he probably throws some to get Pyne more work...
But he'll keep running the ball when Pyne doesn't light it up.


I'm hoping he keeps running the ball.

He better keep running the ball.

If he doesn't rivals posters will beat him with a wet noodle for 37 minutes to an unrecognizable state.

 

[hoopsstar12]

Rees wants to throw the ball around and put up a bunch of points. He came up in that spread high octane offense. The fact that he's had to do a complete 180 after the Buchner injury, and go full bore smashmouth from a pass-first spread, and then have a lot of success on top, is really impressive. I'm frankly shocked with what he's been able to do with a 5'10 back up QB, no WRs, and 2-3 average P5 running backs.

Rees is wringing every drop of production he can out of an offense that basically has an O-line, a TE, and not much else.

Biggest bunch of BS I have ever heard. Both Rees and Kelly will show their true idiocy before the season ends.

 

[88ND]

I could see this ND team perhaps being dominant enough to do what it did vs. Clemson throughout the season if we had another Foskey type, another Hamilton, and an Ian Book like QB.

They don't need more of those and definitely not a Book type.

No way in hell on the Book tyoe.
Book and or a player similar to him creates this false sense of passing prowess to the one running the offense.

We've had twelve years of that type of QB play sans Kizer and hurt.

Blessing in disguise we have a QB that is tiny and can't throw very far. It's made Rees look into other avenues and coach accordingly.

 

[NDinNJ]

They don't need more of those and definitely not a Book type.

No way in hell on the Book tyoe.
Book and or a player similar to him creates this false sense of passing prowess to the one running the offense.

We've had twelve years of that type of QB play sans Kizer and hurt.

Blessing in disguise we have a QB that is tiny and can't throw very far. It's made Rees look into other avenues and coach accordingly.

I agree. ND needs more of a Brady Quinn. Strong arm, and accurate. Force teams to respect the deep ball.

 

[88ND]

I agree. ND needs more of a Brady Quinn. String arm, and accurate. Force teams to respect the deep ball.

A player and or philosophy needs to change.

Let's just be patient here and hope this whole debacle at the QB spot is just what Rees needs to help him from himself.

I posted after the OSU game...

What if....

What if a team....

turned the clock back and really recruited hard for running power football. Top drive blockers, top power running backs...and truly commit to it....coached them accordingly and really dedicated time, effort and energy on the power football rushing attack.

See everyone looks at it from the trendy pov and you need a QB running the spread or you can't win.

That's nonsense.

Today's defenses are smaller but quicker to chase 5 receivers around the field all game.

What happens if you have good talent and really commit to running a power game...

I think you're seeing the beginning of what could be.

Now will Rees stay with it? Possibly...since he got a taste of a huge win.

The other thing is coaches are afraid to do it because remember this...you can lose running the spread and you'll come back next year.
If you lose running an offense that differs from the trendy spread....you lost because you didn't run the spread and get fired.


Funny how that works