Cheating Scandal Aside?

[NDblitz]

Or do the results on the field based on the rank of recruiting classes at UM suggest it might really be a huge asset to their success?
2019- 10
2020- 11
2021- 10
2022-9
2023- 18

ND over the same period
2019 -14
2020-22 (Yikes) Take a look at that group. Many never contributed and or are gone.
2021-9
2022-6
2023-11

If the cheating is irrelevent does it prove you can be an elite team without being top 5 yearly?

 

[Golson5]

Or do the results on the field based on the rank of recruiting classes at UM suggest it might really be a huge asset to their success?
2019- 10
2020- 11
2021- 10
2022-9
2023- 18

ND over the same period
2019 -14
2020-22 (Yikes) Take a look at that group. Many never contributed and or are gone.
2021-9
2022-6
2023-11

If the cheating is irrelevent does it prove you can be an elite team without being top 5 yearly?

Their schedule helps a lot

 

[McCallen ND NYC]

Cheating helps, otherwise Michigan would have stopped doing it.

Steriods and HGH gave huge advantages too.

Michigan should be banned from CFP playoffs or any bowl appearance. Harbaugh should be suspended too.

 

[BGI User 756]

Their schedule helps a lot

This, big time

 

[Patrirish]

Let’s wait for all of the facts to come out and then decide.

Did the Duke rape case not teach you that rushing to judgement doesn’t mean that you got it right !

 

[ivan brunetti]

Cheating helps, otherwise Michigan would have stopped doing it.

Steriods and HGH gave huge advantages too.

Michigan should be banned from CFP playoffs or any bowl appearance. Harbaugh should be suspended too.

Well, maybe the NCAA will come through for you. It doesn't look like the Big Ten is going to do anything before the investigation is complete. 247 article:

"Disciplinary action could come for Michigan football coach Jim Harbaugh following the NCAA's investigation into sign-stealing, but the Big Ten may not be involved with doling out the punishment, The Wall Street Journal reports. According to the WSJ, a person close to the Big Ten has said "the conference will defer to the NCAA, which is conducting its own investigation" in terms of disciplinary action for Harbaugh or the Wolverines.

Per the report, such probes "often take months if not years.”

Michigan president Santa Ono wrote an email to the Big Ten last week, warning the league office that discipline against the Wolverines would violate conference rules. The Michigan Insider's Sam Webb reported over that "unprecedented punishment" from the Big Ten would likely result in legal action from Michigan, which may have been outlined in Ono's email to Big Ten commissioner Tony Petitti."

 

[sjb75]

Well, maybe the NCAA will come through for you. It doesn't look like the Big Ten is going to do anything before the investigation is complete. 247 article:

"Disciplinary action could come for Michigan football coach Jim Harbaugh following the NCAA's investigation into sign-stealing, but the Big Ten may not be involved with doling out the punishment, The Wall Street Journal reports. According to the WSJ, a person close to the Big Ten has said "the conference will defer to the NCAA, which is conducting its own investigation" in terms of disciplinary action for Harbaugh or the Wolverines.

Per the report, such probes "often take months if not years.”

Michigan president Santa Ono wrote an email to the Big Ten last week, warning the league office that discipline against the Wolverines would violate conference rules. The Michigan Insider's Sam Webb reported over that "unprecedented punishment" from the Big Ten would likely result in legal action from Michigan, which may have been outlined in Ono's email to Big Ten commissioner Tony Petitti."

You have CFB programs inducing players to transfer by offering them big up front money, in a few weeks it will be the wild Wild West poaching rosters. NCAA has far bigger problems than this issue.

 

[Patrirish]

A question or questions I have are as follows.

1. If Stalion had the signals, how and who did he pass them to ?
2. if a coach was in receipt of the signals, who did he pass them to ?
3. If a coach didn’t pass them on to other coaches, did he tell a player/s how he got them ?
4. If a coach didn’t pass them on to other coaches or players, but relayed them during the
game, that would seem to indicate that the other coaches and players were in the dark.
5. If that’s the case, why should the players be penalized ?
6. Was Stalion acting on his own or directed ?

Does anyone investigating this know all of the answers ?

 

[NCDomer1]

Cheating helps, otherwise Michigan would have stopped doing it.

Steriods and HGH gave huge advantages too.

Michigan should be banned from CFP playoffs or any bowl appearance. Harbaugh should be suspended too.

I find it hard to believe Harbaugh had no knowledge of it when the culprit was standing right on the sideline next to the coaches

 

[McCallen ND NYC]

Well, maybe the NCAA will come through for you. It doesn't look like the Big Ten is going to do anything before the investigation is complete. 247 article:

"Disciplinary action could come for Michigan football coach Jim Harbaugh following the NCAA's investigation into sign-stealing, but the Big Ten may not be involved with doling out the punishment, The Wall Street Journal reports. According to the WSJ, a person close to the Big Ten has said "the conference will defer to the NCAA, which is conducting its own investigation" in terms of disciplinary action for Harbaugh or the Wolverines.

Per the report, such probes "often take months if not years.”

Michigan president Santa Ono wrote an email to the Big Ten last week, warning the league office that discipline against the Wolverines would violate conference rules. The Michigan Insider's Sam Webb reported over that "unprecedented punishment" from the Big Ten would likely result in legal action from Michigan, which may have been outlined in Ono's email to Big Ten commissioner Tony Petitti."

Hypothetical question for you — After the investigation is complete and Michigan is found guilty of breaking the rules, what is the appropriate punishment, if any?

 

[DieHard_Irish]

This, big time

Big time! Just look at the Big 10, and Michigan's schedule, I mean wow, that schedule is an embarrassment

 

[ivan brunetti]

Hypothetical question for you — After the investigation is complete and Michigan is found guilty of breaking the rules, what is the appropriate punishment, if any?

A fine and maybe a two game suspension for Harbaugh. The reason I think this is because it seems the NCAA is telling the Big Ten that this isn't worth the "indefinite" suspension that the conference was originally going to hand down on Monday. This is "cheating" like a coach calling a pick play pass.

Wetzel article

 

[burmafrd1943]

Let’s wait for all of the facts to come out and then decide.

Did the Duke rape case not teach you that rushing to judgement doesn’t mean that you got it right !

This is so pathetic.

 

[McCallen ND NYC]

A fine and maybe a two game suspension for Harbaugh. The reason I think this is because it seems the NCAA is telling the Big Ten that this isn't worth the "indefinite" suspension that the conference was originally going to hand down on Monday. This is "cheating" like a coach calling a pick play pass.

Wetzel article

View embedded media

Indefinite ban is too draconian. Harbaugh deserves a suspension. Probably more than 2 games given he was suspended early this year. The team should be punished since they benefitted as well, but that outcome is less likely.

 

[ivan brunetti]

Indefinite ban is too draconian. Harbaugh deserves a suspension. Probably more than 2 games given he was suspended early this year. The team should be punished since they benefitted as well, but that outcome is less likely.

Vegas lines have not moved since was disclosed. That would be evidence that the team has not benefitted.

 

[Holycrossover3]

With new evidence coming to light (teams sharing Michigan’s signals with eachother) it appears this issue is more typical than originally thought.

If the NCAA actually cares about the issue and believes that it’s an unfair advantage, than they need to act appropriately and fix the issue. The issue already has a solution which is being used in the NFL, radios to the QB’s helmet. If the NCAA does not mandate this change, it’s apparent to me they really don’t care or believe it’s a major advantage.

The question for Michigan isn’t if Harbaugh knew Stallions job was to steal signs, it’s if he knew he was stealing them illegally. It will be interesting to see if there is evidence that proves Harbaugh knew.

The SEC had talked about implementing the radio in years past but couldn’t get a uniform response among coaches. Why is that? Because some coaches put emphasis on the ability to steal other team’s signs….

 

[NWfor3]

So IF Harbaugh leaves for the NFL after this season like some people think, he will escape any punishment.

 

[Patrirish]

This is so pathetic.

Yeah, who cares what the facts reveal, right ?

 

[NDblitz]

With new evidence coming to light (teams sharing Michigan’s signals with eachother) it appears this issue is more typical than originally thought.

If the NCAA actually cares about the issue and believes that it’s an unfair advantage, than they need to act appropriately and fix the issue. The issue already has a solution which is being used in the NFL, radios to the QB’s helmet. If the NCAA does not mandate this change, it’s apparent to me they really don’t care or believe it’s a major advantage.

The question for Michigan isn’t if Harbaugh knew Stallions job was to steal signs, it’s if he knew he was stealing them illegally. It will be interesting to see if there is evidence that proves Harbaugh knew.

The SEC had talked about implementing the radio in years past but couldn’t get a uniform response among coaches. Why is that? Because some coaches put emphasis on the ability to steal other team’s signs….

Sharing signals you got from your in game deciphering is not illegal. That's no different then Coach A calling Coach b and asking "Hey! What did you notice about the way they lined up to trips on the goalline.? We saw them in Cover 1 Rob a lot. Did they seem to disguise it when they ran it against you?" etc, etc. Actually sending people to film your opponents is.

In addition, if the B1G coaches all knew Michigan was doing this, as has been stated, I'd imagine they all felt there was no reason to not get together and share info they got from their games vs the Wolverines.

 

[burmafrd1943]

Yeah, who cares what the facts reveal, right ?

Your facts are worth less than a bucket of warm spit

 

[Holycrossover3]

Sharing signals you got from your in game deciphering is not illegal. That's no different then Coach A calling Coach b and asking "Hey! What did you notice about the way they lined up to trips on the goalline.? We saw them in Cover 1 Rob a lot. Did they seem to disguise it when they ran it against you?" etc, etc. Actually sending people to film your opponents is.

In addition, if the B1G coaches all knew Michigan was doing this, as has been stated, I'd imagine they all felt there was no reason to not get together and share info they got from their games vs the Wolverines.

I guess I’m not sure if that is true. If TCU gains advanced scouting knowledge from teams who played them early in the year, they’re still getting the advantage. The info Michigan obtained wasn’t as simple as “they were in Cover 1 a lot.” It was a sheet that showed their exact signals and the plays associated.

Whats the difference in Michigan sending someone to a game vs TCU getting the same knowledge from the other team? Seems like they both end up with the same information.

 

[NDblitz]

I guess I’m not sure if that is true. If TCU gains advanced scouting knowledge from teams who played them early in the year, they’re still getting the advantage. The info Michigan obtained wasn’t as simple as “they were in Cover 1 a lot.” It was a sheet that showed their exact signals and the plays associated.

Whats the difference in Michigan sending someone to a game vs TCU getting the same knowledge from the other team? Seems like they both end up with the same information.

Big difference.

 

[tbonesays]

I guess I’m not sure if that is true. If TCU gains advanced scouting knowledge from teams who played them early in the year, they’re still getting the advantage. The info Michigan obtained wasn’t as simple as “they were in Cover 1 a lot.” It was a sheet that showed their exact signals and the plays associated.

Whats the difference in Michigan sending someone to a game vs TCU getting the same knowledge from the other team? Seems like they both end up with the same information.

The difference is illegally obtained information. The NCAA has decided that buying a ticket to another team's game and video recording their sideline is illegal.

I cannot tell if coaches sharing information over the phone is a rule violation or not. However the difference is whether that information was the fruit of the poisonous tree.

 

[Holycrossover3]

The difference is illegally obtained information. The NCAA has decided that buying a ticket to another team's game and video recording their sideline is illegal.

I cannot tell if coaches sharing information over the phone is a rule violation or not. However the difference is whether that information was the fruit of the poisonous tree.

We’re all in agreement what Michigan did was illegal, no doubt.

Doesn’t seem like there is as much info out on the ladder; if the opponents sharing was also illegal. Will be interesting to see what happens. I’ll hold strong that the NCAA needs to mandate QB helmet radios. Seems like a simple fix for an issue in a multibillion dollar industry.

 

[ivan brunetti]

The difference is illegally obtained information. The NCAA has decided that buying a ticket to another team's game and video recording their sideline is illegal.

I cannot tell if coaches sharing information over the phone is a rule violation or not. However the difference is whether that information was the fruit of the poisonous tree.

No, the NCAA has not yet decided that buying tickets or buying video was a breach of NCAA rules (not "illegal"). Stalions being on the sideline of the CMU game on the other hand WAS breaking an NCAA rule. But in the past (Wake Forest), the NCAA has declined to issue any penalty.

Big Ten teams giving their in game scouting information to other teams may break the Big Ten's broad sportsmanship guideline.

Section of Michigan's reply to the Big Ten:

"There are also significant disputes about the application of the rules to the alleged conduct. Those disputes require careful attention and many will likely be adjudicated in the course of the NCAA action. For example, your email cites NCAA Bylaw 11.6.1. But that bylaw bars only “in-person scouting” by “Athletics Personnel” Sce i. id. art. 11. Although Stations himself may qualify as athletics personnel, for much of the conduct your email describes, there is no evidence that the in-person scouting was committed by“Athletics Personnel.” Youalsocite section 1-4-11-h of the NCAA Football Rulebook, which bars“ alny attempt to record, either through audio or video means, any signals given by an opposing player, coach or other team personnel” But that rule plainly applies to field equipment deployed during games in which the institutionparticipates—and simply does not apply to any of Stalions's alleged conduct, allegedly on behalf of a team not involved in the contest. To the extent that you are also seeking to impose disciplinary action based on the head coach responsibility rule (which is procedurally improperatany rate under the Sportsmanship Policy), that rule has recentlychanged —meaning that different head coach responsibility standards would apply to different conduct depending on when the conduct occurred. You do not appear to have considered that issue at all. We are continuing to review the relevant rules and regulations, but disputes about the application of the rules to these facts suggest that immediate adjudication is improper."

 

[Patrirish]

Your facts are worth less than a bucket of warm spit

Then enlighten us and state all of the facts !

 

[tbonesays]

. Although Stations himself may qualify as athletics personnel, for much of the conduct your email describes, there is no evidence that the in-person scouting was committed by“Athletics Personnel.”

So the defense is that Michigan hired it done instead of spying in house. That's not going to cut it.

 

[burmafrd1943]

Then enlighten us and state all of the facts !

YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!

 

[BGI User 1596]

So the defense is that Michigan hired it done instead of spying in house. That's not going to cut it.

The desperation to create a fake narrative to exonerate the cheating is laughable!

 

[Holycrossover3]

Looks like other teams were doing the same.

However, taking with a grain of salt as the reliable source is “my friend.” Lol

 

[Holycrossover3]

View embedded media

Looks like other teams were doing the same.

However, taking with a grain of salt as the reliable source is “my friend.” Lol

I’ll respond to myself; looks like you were wrong, ya dummy!

 

[Patrirish]

YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!

Try me !

 

[NCDomer1]

I think the NCAA should have a task force to investigate football operations at Michigan. Their is more than enough info to warrant more violations

 

[tbonesays]

View embedded media

Looks like other teams were doing the same.

However, taking with a grain of salt as the reliable source is “my friend.” Lol

That's hardly an excuse. Like when SMU had a payroll but Texas players got cash!