Benchmarks: for measuring success for the ND football team

[perseverare]

this is about football, not academics, so grad rates are not part of the consideration
Maybe the board diversity of opinions can be identified by this question.
What is your 'play like a champion'?

Is it the season W/L record?
wins over arch rivals?
post season appearances?
major victories?
accomplishing the Mission Statement: National Champions?
or
other? (your criteria)
In otherwords, how do we view 'success'.

and if you care to add, what are the drivers to achieve those benchmarks.

 

[IRISHJD98]

Explain this "board division" stuff.

 

[cgvr]

this is about football, not academics, so grad rates are not part of the consideration
Maybe the board division can be identified by this question.
What is your 'play like a champion'?

Is it the season W/L record?
wins over arch rivals?
post season appearances?
major victories?
accomplishing the Mission Statement: National Champions?
or
other? (your criteria)
In otherwords, how do we view 'success'.

and if you care to add, what are the drivers to achieve those benchmarks.

There is a great post on TOS where some plebe challenged folks loyalty.
The following response is dead on perfect and summarizes the sentiment for many of us alum....

"We're loyal as all hell.

We're loyal to this University and this football program and the kids who will be our fellow alumni. Therefore, we hold the grown men who are charged with stewardship of those institutions, and the instruction and preparation of the student-athletes to a very high standard.

There is no virtue in mediocrity and it shouldn't be tolerated."

Therein, lies the rub. The ongoing acceptance of ND football mediocrity is a blight.

kelly set at least 2 records in the opener:

1 Most points against ND to start a season.
2 Only coach in ND history to have 50 or more scored on him twice.

He also dipped below .700 WP.

He stinks and bvg makes him smell worse...

 

[perseverare]

Explain this "board division" stuff.

well, there seems to be some 100% convinced everything is great and then others calling for change.
Basically after 7 years: the opposing stances as to how well the Staff is doing.
Why, you think we are all in agreement?

The purpose of the post is to get people to think of why and why they are of the opinion they hold and what are the supporting reasons and facts.

I expect very few will reply, since it does put a fan on the spot. Reason>Emotion but for many Emotion is the sole driver to their opinions.

 

[IRISHJD98]

I think there are a variety of opinions that range from "everything is 100% alright" and "everything sucks" and that there are many people with opinions in between, but that the people with the most extreme positions want to pigeonhole everyone into one position or the other because they like arguing and feeling superior.

 

[NIN Irish]

National champs, but I'll settle for a major bowl victory after 25 years, for moderate success.

 

[Headwaters]

it's all those things. A great W-L record (for example 10-2) without wins over arch rivals is hollow. By the same token, wins over arch rivals without capping it off with a bowl win is equally hollow. That's not to say a team can't lose a game or two along the way but any measure of success in my view necessarily includes wins over rivals and a season ending W.

 

[perseverare]

I think there are a variety of opinions that range from "everything is 100% alright" and "everything sucks" and that there are many people with opinions in between, but that the people with the most extreme positions want to pigeonhole everyone into one position or the other because they like arguing and feeling superior.

I take it you don't care to give thought as to why you have your opinion: are you in the 'emotion' or just 'gut' fans who do not want to consider the 'measurements' because, if you do not want to know the answer, don't ask the question.

This is a very fair post: just a simple attempt to get fans to examine their basis for their opinion.
That you read the post: mission accomplished.

 

[Shakin' Down the Thunder]

For this year, I'll take 11 wins with a top 10 finish and hopefully a major bowl victory. ND needs a major bowl win in the worst way.

 

[rgc7]

All I want to see is a well coahed disciplined team.
Which means a team that can block and tackle,and have the players in the correct formations and position on defense.
And coaches that come into every game with a game plan
To win, can make adjustments as needed, and put the team
In a position to take out inferior teams early, and compete
Against rivals, and get into and win a major bowl.

 

[Rod Dangerfield]

 

[Java65]

Perse, I don't think you can separate the academics from expectations. Based on the academic restrictions I think a realistic expectation is consistently winning 9+ games every year with the occasional 6-8 win season.

Anything less than 9 wins is unacceptable and anything more than 10 is unrealistic.

 

[IRISHJD98]

I take it you don't care to give thought as to why you have your opinion: are you in the 'emotion' or just 'gut' fans who do not want to consider the 'measurements' because, if you do not want to know the answer, don't ask the question.

This is a very fair post: just a simple attempt to get fans to examine their basis for their opinion.
That you read the post: mission accomplished.

Actually, I asked the question because I wanted to see whether you were committed to the "this group" vs. "that group" position that usually winds up in a insulting pissing context. Clearly you are, so I think I'll pass on this one.

 

[perseverare]

Actually, I asked the question because I wanted to see whether you were committed to the "this group" vs. "that group" position that usually winds up in a insulting pissing context. Clearly you are, so I think I'll pass on this one.

Check the edit. you answered the thread with a non answere to deflect to premise. Hopefully others will not deflect the main purpose of the post now.
Clearly, whatever your opinion, you arrive at it using 'tea leaves'.

I suspected there would be little response because the problem avoidance tactic is the tactic du jour. If a good or excellent performance is done then one welcomes evaluation; but the contrary occurs when there is something to fear.

 

[perseverare]

Perse, I don't think you can separate the academics from expectations. Based on the academic restrictions I think a realistic expectation is consistently winning 9+ games every year with the occasional 6-8 win season.

Anything less than 9 wins is unacceptable and anything more than 10 is unrealistic.

but it is a football team and not a book reading club: You can separate the a academics and should do so to evaluate the football program as a football program.

you guys are very good at formulating opinions without thinking about how you arrive it that opinion.

You must have benchmarks, a quantifiable standard to determine the performance. Or you just go by emotion and popularity or other allegiance.

 

[SALittleGiant513]

Yall are talking about academics and football in to different ways. Java is saying that academics lays the context for how we should frame our views on success. You are saying success of the team limited to football only, as in the graduation rate of the team is not relevant to discussion.

To answer the question I think that how we define the success of the team depends on the year. Some years the schedule is going to open up and the same expectation as the year before wont make sense. Conversely some years the schedule is going to be brutal and ND may loose a ton of talent from the previous year making the expectation limited. Broad strokes view of the success though:

9+ wins in the regular season
Bowl win or competitive loss,
Better then .500 against our key rivals (Navy not included that needs to be a win every year),
No losses against teams ND shouldn't lose too,
More wins then losses against teams close to ND (ranked may be a better way to define this )
Every 4 year cycle ND should be competing for a playoff spot.

 

[perseverare]

^ good job

Correct: I separate the football evaluation from the academics as that is a separate evaluation.
The total of the evaluations would result in the decision about job performance.
Things like how the program represents the university (student issues, discipline, # of arrests...) are additional facrors. They get added to the program evaluation.



(see guys one can actually determine what they think IF they have the courage to do it)

 

[bizzybecknd]

"This isn't a book club".. NO. It's a prestigious university of higher education that happens to have a powerhouse football program. They are not separate entities but rather uniquely and closely tied together. The importance of academics is and always will be of greater importance, as it should be.

 

[Java65]

but it is a football team and not a book reading club: You can separate the a academics and should do so to evaluate the football program as a football program.

you guys are very good at formulating opinions without thinking about how you arrive it that opinion.

You must have benchmarks, a quantifiable standard to determine the performance. Or you just go by emotion and popularity or other allegiance.

But that football team doesn't exist in a bubble. To have a competitive team you must recruit elite athletes and train them.

ND is competing against teams schools that can offer 100% of the elite athletes and ND can offer maybe 30%. So they are at a huge disadvantage out of the gate.

Once in school O$U, UM and Bama kids spend maybe 10 hrs per week on academics and 40 hrs on football activities. At ND they spend 40 hrs per week on academic related activities and squeeze in football.

IMO, you absolutely cannot separate the academics from the equation.

 

[BGI User 1596]

But that football team doesn't exist in a bubble. To have a competitive team you must recruit elite athletes and train them.

ND is competing against teams schools that can offer 100% of the elite athletes and ND can offer maybe 30%. So they are at a huge disadvantage out of the gate.

Once in school O$U, UM and Bama kids spend maybe 10 hrs per week on academics and 40 hrs on football activities. At ND they spend 40 hrs per week on academic related activities and squeeze in football.

IMO, you absolutely cannot separate the academics from the equation.

Except Stanford which is a much tougher IN seems to be doing OK.

 

[Java65]

Except Stanford which is a much tougher IN seems to be doing OK.

No doubt about that.

2 reasons why I am critical of BK and don't regard him as a great coach (good but not great). 1) failure to win at least 9 (regular season) games every season. I think 9-10 is achievable at ND 2) Record vs Stanford.

 

[perseverare]

Sal

explain this to java

 

[Java65]

Sal

explain this to java

Nothing to explain, I understand. What I am saying is that my expectations are based on many factors one being the academic restrictions in place.

I don’t expect ND to ever win a NC or even make the playoffs because they are a college team competing against semi-pro teams.

So success in our current environment is;

Winning at least 9 reg. season games a year.
Beat Stanford at least 50% of the time
Beat USC at least once every 4 years.
Don't get embarrassed in bowl game.

 

[IrishHerb]

Except Stanford which is a much tougher IN seems to be doing OK.

At one time, ND football owned Stanford. We're about even now.

I believe back when Harbaugh was coaching Stanford, during one interview he said something along the lines that of all the thousands of seniors playing football in high school and trying to get into a DIV-1 football program only a hundred would qualify at Notre Dame or Stanford and they were competing for the same kids.

Stanford seems to be doing something right these days though ... they seem to have fewer injuries than us, seem to be winning the competition for better athletes (McCaferty for example), ...

 

[perseverare]

Nothing to explain, I understand. What I am saying is that my expectations are based on many factors one being the academic restrictions in place.

I don’t expect ND to ever win a NC or even make the playoffs because they are a college team competing against semi-pro teams.

So success in our current environment is;

Winning at least 9 reg. season games a year.
Beat Stanford at least 50% of the time
Beat USC at least once every 4 years.
Don't get embarrassed in bowl game.

you don't set the bar very high!

 

[ivan brunetti]

For most programs, you want to see gradual improvement from year to year. ND has seemed to regress since Kelly's 2012 peak.

 

[IrishHerb]

For most programs, you want to see gradual improvement from year to year. ND has seemed to regress since Kelly's 2012 peak.

Last year he had any of Weis's kids.

 

[ivan brunetti]

Last year he had any of Weis's kids.

Last year was a pretty good team though. With only the average amount of injuries it could arguably been better than the 2012 squad.

 

[perseverare]

it is apparent that for the large part the fan base here really just shoot from the hip in forming their opinions.
Little thought is given to arrive at any truths when evaluating the status or performance of the staff. I picture them with eyes closed and hands over their ears!

Interesting commentary on human behavior; why some people just bestow trust or just follow out of some blind need. Fear based.

 

[Java65]

you don't set the bar very high!

ND is competing against semi-pro teams and the reality is you can't expect players who spend the majority of their time on school to compete with players that spend almost all of their time on football.

Its not a matter of setting the bar too low, it's a matter of being realistic.

 

[ivan brunetti]

ND is competing against semi-pro teams and the reality is you can't expect players who spend the majority of their time on school to compete with players that spend almost all of their time on football.

Its not a matter of setting the bar too low, it's a matter of being realistic.

ND has more fame and should be a bigger draw than Stanford. Both schools have more than enough money and volunteers to provide personal tutors for every player.

 

[Java65]

ND has more fame and should be a bigger draw than Stanford. Both schools have more than enough money and volunteers to provide personal tutors for every player.

It's not just a matter of tutors. ND can't offer many of the top players. There are only so many hours in a day and while ND players are spending most of those hours on school, O$U players are spending most of those hours working out, studying film, working on technique. You can't realistically expect ND players to compete with that.

 

[perseverare]

It's not just a matter of tutors. ND can't offer many of the top players. There are only so many hours in a day and while ND players are spending most of those hours on school, O$U players are spending most of those hours working out, studying film, working on technique. You can't realistically expect ND players to compete with that.

but that is not part of the football performance segment of the ?
there has to be a disciplined way measure whether goals are being achieved

( but, Stanford has done fairly well)

 

[Sarah_Plain_And_Tall]

There is a great post on TOS where some plebe challenged folks loyalty.
The following response is dead on perfect and summarizes the sentiment for many of us alum....

"We're loyal as all hell.

We're loyal to this University and this football program and the kids who will be our fellow alumni. Therefore, we hold the grown men who are charged with stewardship of those institutions, and the instruction and preparation of the student-athletes to a very high standard.

There is no virtue in mediocrity and it shouldn't be tolerated."

Therein, lies the rub. The ongoing acceptance of ND football mediocrity is a blight.

kelly set at least 2 records in the opener:

1 Most points against ND to start a season.
2 Only coach in ND history to have 50 or more scored on him twice.

He also dipped below .700 WP.

He stinks and bvg makes him smell worse...

Yeah, many of the Kool Aiders's have more loyalty to Kelly than ND Football and that is the rub.

 

[Sarah_Plain_And_Tall]

It's not just a matter of tutors. ND can't offer many of the top players. There are only so many hours in a day and while ND players are spending most of those hours on school, O$U players are spending most of those hours working out, studying film, working on technique. You can't realistically expect ND players to compete with that.

Oh Please. Any good school requires a great deal of work in and out of the classroom. ND is a very good school but I am so sick of this excuse. Stanford players seem to get it done. So do Michigan players. For that matter, Navy has much less time than ND players and has less talent and has beaten Kelly.

 

[Sarah_Plain_And_Tall]

Last year was a pretty good team though. With only the average amount of injuries it could arguably been better than the 2012 squad.

The old injuries excuse used every season. Maybe Kelly needs up and replace his S & C Coach along with BVG. That is what a good head coach is supposed to do.

 

[perseverare]

Yeah, many of the Kool Aiders's have more loyalty to Kelly than ND Football and that is the rub.

^
well the ones that have a clear vested interest get a pass out of 'loyalty'. I do object to that fact they are here to try to censure, but I do get it with them.

But for the actual ND fan to be as blindly loyal without the ability to explain why in empiracle terms is perplexing!

 

[Java65]

but that is not part of the football performance segment of the ?
there has to be a disciplined way measure whether goals are being achieved

( but, Stanford has done fairly well)

I was responding to the statement that ND can afford to pay for a lot of tutors.

Yep, but they still haven't won a NC nor do I think they will. I would think Stanford results are about where ND should be. I think their record is a bit inflated because the PAC isn't that great USC has been a train wreck since Pete left. Oregon is good, UCLA ok but overall a fairly weak conference.

Like I have said given the huge restrictions I just don't see ND ever being able to compete with most of the football factories.

 

[Sarah_Plain_And_Tall]

^
well the ones that have a clear vested interest get a pass out of 'loyalty'. I do object to that fact they are here to try to censure, but I do get it with them.

But for the actual ND fan to be as blindly loyal without the ability to explain why in empiracle terms is perplexing!

Since you get attacked for your many posts, I think it is fair game to attack the Kool Aid Gangs post numbers. Look at NCSND or whatever his name is number of posts (22,800). All sarcasm and drivel with no substance about the game.

 

[perseverare]

I was responding to the statement that ND can afford to pay for a lot of tutors.

Yep, but they still haven't won a NC nor do I think they will. I would think Stanford results are about where ND should be. I think their record is a bit inflated because the PAC isn't that great USC has been a train wreck since Pete left. Oregon is good, UCLA ok but overall a fairly weak conference.

Like I have said given the huge restrictions I just don't see ND ever being able to compete with most of the football factories.

well, we will not have to wait too long for an answer; if at seasons end it is staus quo then ND as an insitution has w/o official decree has decided between the two directions for the football program.