Notre Dame 1950-1984 vs Notre Dame 1985-2015

[IrishInOntario]

I'm often told that I don't pay enough respect to Notre Dame team's of the past and that I don't give enough credit to players of Notre Dame's "Golden Years". What I'd like to do is have some guys build an "All ND" from the 35 years prior to 1985 (both offense and defense)... Try to put together a team that would have a shot of beating my 1985-2015 team. Can't wait to see some of the squads that you put together!

Here is, in my opinion, the "All ND" team from 1985-2015...

Offense

QB: Tony Rice
RB: Jerome Bettis
WR: Tim Brown
WR: Michael Floyd
Slot: Golden Tate
TE: Tyler Eifert
LT: Ronnie Stanley
LG: Zack Martin
C: Jeff Faine
RG: Aaron Taylor
RT: Andy Heck
KR: Raghib Ismail

Defense

DE: Bryant Young
NG: Chris Zorich
DT: Stephon Tuitt
DE: Justin Tuck
SAM: Jaylon Smith
MIKE: Manti Te'o
WILL: Michael Stonebreaker
CB: Todd Lyght
FS: Bobby Taylor (At 6'3, 215lbs, he was ideal size to play FS)
SS; Harison Smith
CB: Shane Walton

Really tough team to choose and I left out a lot of amazing players, but I think that team would be as potent as they come.

- Incredible offensive line composed of all 1st round picks, the shortest of whom was Faine at 6'3 and all them over 300lbs. There wouldn't be anything close to a "weak side".

- Jerome Bettis and Tony Rice running "inside zone" and read option behind that offensive line would destroy anything in front of them.

- This team would feature arguably the 3 best wide receivers (who own every record) in schools history and easily the top tight end in the school's history as well. Rice (who I almost replaced with Brady Quinn for his passing prowess) would have an elite group of wide receivers that would be unmatched by the 1950-184 teams.

- Rocket would be my kick returner.... Enough said.

- That defensive line. Tuck and Tuitt are #1 and #2 all time in sacks and Zorich would be a menace on the inside beside the ever so steady Young. Fantastic all around group that possesses great size and pass rush ability.

- The linebackers are beyond dynamic. Te'o is widely considered ND's best ever (almost won the Heisman). Jaylon Smith would be like something from outer space for the "old guys". Most athletic linebacker in ND history. Then there is that Stonebreaker guy... He was alright too...

- The Secondary is just silly. Light and Walton would be a nightmare in press man and Taylor and Smith would be head hunting over the top. Just a complete team full of studs in every way. Big, fast, physical and extremely explosive.

Bring it on boys!

 

[Bodizephax]

I'm often told that I don't pay enough respect to Notre Dame team's of the past and that I don't give enough credit to players of Notre Dame's "Golden Years". What I'd like to do is have some guys build an "All ND" from the 35 years prior to 1985 (both offense and defense)... Try to put together a team that would have a shot of beating my 1985-2015 team. Can't wait to see some of the squads that you put together!

Here is, in my opinion, the "All ND" team from 1985-2015...

Offense

QB: Tony Rice
RB: Jerome Bettis
WR: Tim Brown
WR: Michael Floyd
Slot: Golden Tate
TE: Tyler Eifert
LT: Ronnie Stanley
LG: Zack Martin
C: Jeff Faine
RG: Aaron Taylor
RT: Andy Heck
KR: Raghib Ismail

Defense

DE: Ross Browner
NG: Stephon Tuitt (easily could play here in a 4-3 defense)
DT: Chris Zorich
DE: Justin Tuck
SAM: Jaylon Smith
MIKE: Manti Te'o
WILL: Michael Stonebreaker
CB: Todd Lyght
FS: Bobby Taylor (At 6'3, 215lbs, he was ideal size to play FS)
SS; Harison Smith
CB: Shane Walton

Really tough team to choose and I left out a lot of amazing players, but I think that team would be as potent as they come.

- Incredible offensive line composed of all 1st round picks, the shortest of whom was Faine at 6'3 and all them over 300lbs. There wouldn't be anything close to a "weak side".

- Jerome Bettis and Tony Rice running "inside zone" and read option behind that offensive line would destroy anything in front of them.

- This team would feature arguably the 3 best wide receivers (who own every record) in schools history and easily the top tight end in the school's history as well. Rice (who I almost replaced with Brady Quinn for his passing prowess) would have an elite group of wide receivers that would be unmatched by the 1950-184 teams.

- Rocket would be my kick returner.... Enough said.

- That defensive line... Lol... To think Bryant Young didn't make it. Tuck and Tuitt are #1 and #2 all time in sacks, and Browner may be the best DE in ND's history. Zorich beside Tuitt on the inside would give Montana or Theisman (whoever you choose) about 3 seconds to find a wide receiver.

- The linebackers are beyond dynamic. Te'o is widely considered ND's best ever (almost won the Heisman). Jaylon Smith would be like something from outer space for the "old guys". Most athletic linebacker in ND history. Then there is that Stonebreaker guy... He was alright too...

- The Secondary is just silly. Light and Walton would be a nightmare in press man and Taylor and Smith would be head hunting over the top. Just a complete team full of studs in every way. Big, fast, physical and extremely explosive.

Bring it on boys!

Ross Browner did not play between 1985 to 2015---- He played in the 70s. Time flys ! I am getting old !

 

[IrishInOntario]

Ross Browner did not play between 1985 to 2015---- He played in the 70s. Time flys ! I am getting old !

Great catch Bodi.. He and Alan Page will be a nice tandem on the pre 1985 defensive line. Looks like Bryant Young will be on the team afterall

 

[greengael]

I'm often told that I don't pay enough respect to Notre Dame team's of the past and that I don't give enough credit to players of Notre Dame's "Golden Years". What I'd like to do is have some guys build an "All ND" from the 35 years prior to 1985 (both offense and defense)... Try to put together a team that would have a shot of beating my 1985-2015 team. Can't wait to see some of the squads that you put together!

Here is, in my opinion, the "All ND" team from 1985-2015...

Offense

QB: Tony Rice
RB: Jerome Bettis
WR: Tim Brown
WR: Michael Floyd
Slot: Golden Tate
TE: Tyler Eifert
LT: Ronnie Stanley
LG: Zack Martin
C: Jeff Faine
RG: Aaron Taylor
RT: Andy Heck
KR: Raghib Ismail

Defense

DE: Bryant Young
NG: Chris Zorich
DT: Stephon Tuitt
DE: Justin Tuck
SAM: Jaylon Smith
MIKE: Manti Te'o
WILL: Michael Stonebreaker
CB: Todd Lyght
FS: Bobby Taylor (At 6'3, 215lbs, he was ideal size to play FS)
SS; Harison Smith
CB: Shane Walton

Really tough team to choose and I left out a lot of amazing players, but I think that team would be as potent as they come.

- Incredible offensive line composed of all 1st round picks, the shortest of whom was Faine at 6'3 and all them over 300lbs. There wouldn't be anything close to a "weak side".

- Jerome Bettis and Tony Rice running "inside zone" and read option behind that offensive line would destroy anything in front of them.

- This team would feature arguably the 3 best wide receivers (who own every record) in schools history and easily the top tight end in the school's history as well. Rice (who I almost replaced with Brady Quinn for his passing prowess) would have an elite group of wide receivers that would be unmatched by the 1950-184 teams.

- Rocket would be my kick returner.... Enough said.

- That defensive line. Tuck and Tuitt are #1 and #2 all time in sacks and Zorich would be a menace on the inside beside the ever so steady Young. Fantastic all around group that possesses great size and pass rush ability.

- The linebackers are beyond dynamic. Te'o is widely considered ND's best ever (almost won the Heisman). Jaylon Smith would be like something from outer space for the "old guys". Most athletic linebacker in ND history. Then there is that Stonebreaker guy... He was alright too...

- The Secondary is just silly. Light and Walton would be a nightmare in press man and Taylor and Smith would be head hunting over the top. Just a complete team full of studs in every way. Big, fast, physical and extremely explosive.

Bring it on boys!

I would suggest that any who may be interested simply go to the list of Notre Dame consensus All-Americans and start there. plenty of material.especially when considering college careers not pro credentials.

 

[Quest4Twelve]

I'm often told that I don't pay enough respect to Notre Dame team's of the past and that I don't give enough credit to players of Notre Dame's "Golden Years". What I'd like to do is have some guys build an "All ND" from the 35 years prior to 1985 (both offense and defense)... Try to put together a team that would have a shot of beating my 1985-2015 team. Can't wait to see some of the squads that you put together!

Here is, in my opinion, the "All ND" team from 1985-2015...

Offense

QB: Tony Rice
RB: Jerome Bettis
WR: Tim Brown
WR: Michael Floyd
Slot: Golden Tate
TE: Tyler Eifert
LT: Ronnie Stanley
LG: Zack Martin
C: Jeff Faine
RG: Aaron Taylor
RT: Andy Heck
KR: Raghib Ismail

Defense

DE: Bryant Young
NG: Chris Zorich
DT: Stephon Tuitt
DE: Justin Tuck
SAM: Jaylon Smith
MIKE: Manti Te'o
WILL: Michael Stonebreaker
CB: Todd Lyght
FS: Bobby Taylor (At 6'3, 215lbs, he was ideal size to play FS)
SS; Harison Smith
CB: Shane Walton

Really tough team to choose and I left out a lot of amazing players, but I think that team would be as potent as they come.

- Incredible offensive line composed of all 1st round picks, the shortest of whom was Faine at 6'3 and all them over 300lbs. There wouldn't be anything close to a "weak side".

- Jerome Bettis and Tony Rice running "inside zone" and read option behind that offensive line would destroy anything in front of them.

- This team would feature arguably the 3 best wide receivers (who own every record) in schools history and easily the top tight end in the school's history as well. Rice (who I almost replaced with Brady Quinn for his passing prowess) would have an elite group of wide receivers that would be unmatched by the 1950-184 teams.

- Rocket would be my kick returner.... Enough said.

- That defensive line. Tuck and Tuitt are #1 and #2 all time in sacks and Zorich would be a menace on the inside beside the ever so steady Young. Fantastic all around group that possesses great size and pass rush ability.

- The linebackers are beyond dynamic. Te'o is widely considered ND's best ever (almost won the Heisman). Jaylon Smith would be like something from outer space for the "old guys". Most athletic linebacker in ND history. Then there is that Stonebreaker guy... He was alright too...

- The Secondary is just silly. Light and Walton would be a nightmare in press man and Taylor and Smith would be head hunting over the top. Just a complete team full of studs in every way. Big, fast, physical and extremely explosive.

Bring it on boys!

While Shane Walton was a soccer player turned decent corner, I'd replace him with Jeff Burris, Willie Clark or Tom Carter any day of the week! Funny as fans we tend to "pump up" players more than what they were over time. The rest of your team look $$$ in the bank!

 

[greengael]

I wouldn't even try to name a team for 1954-1985. There's just to many great players that I never saw play. I would put the 1966 or 1970 ND team up against any ND all star team of ND from 1985 to 2015. Ara Parseghian verses Lou Holtz in ND Stadium with Jesse Harper, Knute Rockne, and Frank Leahy in attendance. Father Ted would give the invocation and George Gipp would do the coin toss. Special guest announcers Chris Schenkel and Frank Broyles would call the game for NBC. It would be a game for the ages. Coach Duffy Daugherty would stop by at halftime to complain about the 1966 ND/MSU game. It would be a game for the ages.
1950-1985 All Star Team

Offense:

QB: Joe Theismann
RB: Vegas Fergusin
FB: Paul Hornung
TE: Ken MacAfee
WR: Tom Gatewood
WR: Jim Seymore
LT: Paul Seiler
LG: Tim Regner
C: George Goeddeke
RG: Dick Swatland
RT: Bob Kuechenberg

Defense:

DE: Allan Page
DT: Pete Duranko
DT: Kevin Hardy
DE: Ross Browner
LB: Jim Lynch
LB: Bob Golic
LB: Bob Crable
CB: Luther Bradley
CB: Ted Burgmeier
SS: Jim Browner
FS: Joe Restic

ara no arguments on D but it saddens me not to see bobo Olson or Mike McCoy on the list but not an argument. The o on the other hand would include one or both of the diNardo's at guard[consensus all American both. Nick Eddy and Bob Gladieux deserve mention as does Larry Conjar at fb.I might put golic at Nose and insert Olson at inside lb. No one runs on that front.!1966 Michigan state game had 13 All Americans on the field that day and only George Webster and Bubba Smith on the Spartans iirc? On further reflection Hanratty at QB and Arrington at guard would work also.George Kunz at tackle perhaps? Where is Walt Patulski?????[smile]

 

[BigFellaFan]

Great memories of great players. Thanks for posting.

 

[john0gaunt]

So for 99% of your plays you have the Rocket on the bench? Sorry, you clearly never saw him play.

He's the fastest guy on the team that you list and a number one overall NFL pick. He runs a 4.2 and catches anything thrown his way and you have him sitting down.

Go Irish!

 

[IrishInOntario]

So for 99% of your plays you have the Rocket on the bench? Sorry, you clearly never saw him play.

He's the fastest guy on the team that you list and a number one overall NFL pick. He runs a 4.2 and catches anything thrown his way and you have him sitting down.

Go Irish!

I'd rotate Rocket in at both RB for Bettis and in the slot for Tate, in a Percy Harvin type of role... But no, I would not start a guy with 71 career receptions and 4 career pass TD's in the slot over the Biletnikoff Award winning Golden Tate.

 

[john0gaunt]

Like I said, they played a different game back then. Hence the numbers. There is NEVER a reason to bench a #1 NFL WR that runs a 4.2. NEVER. I appreciate reading your posts but there is absolutely NO valid reason for sitting the rocket on any play.

If you're down by 3 with 2 minutes left and your at your own 20, you better have the rocket in there. It would be inconceivable to have him on the bench. You would be crucified come monday morning. Crucified.

Again, I can only assume you never saw him play. They called him rocket for a reason.

 

[greengael]

I left a ton of great players off this list including Joe Montana. He was still growing into Joe Montana the greatest QB in NFL history. IMHO

We could do at least a two deep of All Americans from that era. the only way to judge a player really is what did he do when he played against the competition that was available.No contest if those are the parameters.

 

[IrishInOntario]

I wouldn't even try to name a team for 1954-1985. There's just to many great players that I never saw play. I would put the 1966 or 1970 ND team up against any ND all star team of ND from 1985 to 2015. Ara Parseghian verses Lou Holtz in ND Stadium with Jesse Harper, Knute Rockne, and Frank Leahy in attendance. Father Ted would give the invocation and George Gipp would do the coin toss. Special guest announcers Chris Schenkel and Frank Broyles would call the game for NBC. It would be a game for the ages. Coach Duffy Daugherty would stop by at halftime to complain about the 1966 ND/MSU game. It would be a game for the ages.
1950-1985 All Star Team

Offense:

QB: Joe Theismann
RB: Vegas Fergusin
FB: Paul Hornung
TE: Ken MacAfee
WR: Tom Gatewood
WR: Jim Seymore
LT: Paul Seiler
LG: Tim Regner
C: George Goeddeke
RG: Dick Swatland
RT: Bob Kuechenberg

Defense:

DE: Allan Page
DT: Pete Duranko
DT: Kevin Hardy
DE: Ross Browner
LB: Jim Lynch
LB: Bob Golic
LB: Bob Crable
CB: Luther Bradley
CB: Ted Burgmeier
SS: Jim Browner
FS: Joe Restic

You're offensive line goes...

6'4, 258lbs (Seiler)
6'1, 250lbs (Regner)
6'3, 253lbs (Goedekke)
6'3, 245lbs (Swatland)
6'2, 253lbs (Kuechenberg)

Vs my defensive line which goes...

6'5, 265lbs (Tuck)
6'3, 305lbs (Young)
6'1, 282lbs (Zorich)
6'5, 305lbs (Tuitt)

Zorich would be the only fair matchups otherwise it would be like watching modern ND vs a service academy. Your team could double Tuitt and Young all day and they'd still get blown 5 yards back on every play against those monsters. Tuck coming off the edge would be merciless and poor Ken MacAfee would have to contend with Jaylon Smith, a SAM linebacker rushing off the edge that would be faster than any player on your entire team... It would be like watching a scene from Predator.

As great as Fergusson was, Te'o (the size of your guards) and Stonebreaker would meet him at the handoff every play... Because I would be more than confident playing my DB's in press man vs your wide receivers, I'd send Smith on just about every play as well. Theismann wouldn't be able to breathe.

Athletes are like fighter jets. They get better as time goes by. No matter how badly you want to argue that a P-40 Mustang may have been the best fighter for its time, and F-15 would still make a mockery of it head-to-head.

 

[Granite45]

The WRs could be wasted with Rice at QB. Mirrer, Quinn, Clausen, or Powlus would all be preferable to me as a running QB not needed with the RBs and WRs.

 

[greengael]

You're offensive line goes...

6'4, 258lbs (Seiler)
6'1, 250lbs (Regner)
6'3, 253lbs (Goedekke)
6'3, 245lbs (Swatland)
6'2, 253lbs (Kuechenberg)

Vs my defensive line which goes...

6'5, 265lbs (Tuck)
6'3, 305lbs (Young)
6'1, 282lbs (Zorich)
6'5, 305lbs (Tuitt)

Zorich would be the only fair matchups otherwise it would be like watching modern ND vs a service academy. Your team could double Tuitt and Young all day and they'd still get blown 5 yards back on every play against those monsters. Tuck coming off the edge would be merciless and poor Ken MacAfee would have to contend with Jaylon Smith, a SAM linebacker rushing off the edge that would be faster than any player on your entire team... It would be like watching a scene from Predator.

As great as Fergusson was, Te'o (the size of your guards) and Stonebreaker would meet him at the handoff every play... Because I would be more than confident playing my DB's in press man vs your wide receivers, I'd send Smith on just about every play as well. Theismann wouldn't be able to breathe.

Athletes are like fighter jets. They get better as time goes by. No matter how badly you want to argue that a P-40 Mustang may have been the best fighter for its time, and F-15 would still make a mockery of it head-to-head.

Your premises are skewed .There is no question that athletes are better physically today than in past years . This conversation is moot unless you take the era into consideration. By the way before you strain yourself patting your own back in ten years or so you can do this again and very few of "your" guys may make the team physically.

 

[IrishInOntario]

I wouldn't even try to name a team for 1954-1985. There's just to many great players that I never saw play. I would put the 1966 or 1970 ND team up against any ND all star team of ND from 1985 to 2015. Ara Parseghian verses Lou Holtz in ND Stadium with Jesse Harper, Knute Rockne, and Frank Leahy in attendance. Father Ted would give the invocation and George Gipp would do the coin toss. Special guest announcers Chris Schenkel and Frank Broyles would call the game for NBC. It would be a game for the ages. Coach Duffy Daugherty would stop by at halftime to complain about the 1966 ND/MSU game. It would be a game for the ages.
1950-1985 All Star Team

Offense:

QB: Joe Theismann
RB: Vegas Fergusin
FB: Paul Hornung
TE: Ken MacAfee
WR: Tom Gatewood
WR: Jim Seymore
LT: Paul Seiler
LG: Tim Regner
C: George Goeddeke
RG: Dick Swatland
RT: Bob Kuechenberg

Defense:

DE: Allan Page
DT: Pete Duranko
DT: Kevin Hardy
DE: Ross Browner
LB: Jim Lynch
LB: Bob Golic
LB: Bob Crable
CB: Luther Bradley
CB: Ted Burgmeier
SS: Jim Browner
FS: Joe Restic

Did you just start a slow footed, 5'9, 185lb corner vs 6'3, 225lb Michael Floyd (the leading receiver in ND history) running a 4.4?!?... Floyd would snap Burgmeier in half, and run through and around him... I'm assuming you're going to match your top corner (Bradley) up against the incredible Tim Brown?

 

[IrishInOntario]

Your premises are skewed .There is no question that athletes are better physically today than in past years . This conversation is moot unless you take the era into consideration. By the way before you strain yourself patting your own back in ten years or so you can do this again and very few of "your" guys may make the team physically.

Precisely Gael! Someday my guys will probably come off the list of "best" as well... It's the nature of the beast.

 

[john0gaunt]

no, I would not start a guy over the Biletnikoff Award winning Golden Tate.

Can the Rocket bring his National Championship ring?

 

[IrishInOntario]

I have zero need nor reason to grant you any said handicap. It's called Progression and evolution. Every facet of human society is subject to it. We strive to do things bigger, faster and more efficiently and thus, become better at doing said things.

We're talk THE BEST. That's only a relative thing to people that wish to live in the past... However, there were athletes at that time that pile compete today. For example, Theismann was still a stud. Browned and Page could hang... Most couldn't, however.

When we talk about the greatest Springer ever, that's Usain Bolt. There is no contest. No argument. He is the fastest man to ever do it... Guys from the past don't get to claim "I was better than Bolt! We just ran at different times..." No you're not. Period.

Guys work sooooo much harder today to be the best and to get themselves is ridiculous physical shape to play the game... Tiger wouldn't give golfers from the past a couple extra strokes because he can out drive them considerably.

Legacies are meant to be surpassed and records are meant to be broken.

 

[IrishInOntario]

Can the Rocket bring his National Championship ring?

Of course he can! Love me some Rocket. I hope he wears it returning kicks and getting 8-10 touches at RB / SB / WR.... Stud!

He's just not starting in my receiving core over one of the most accomplished WR's in ND history.

 

[IrishHerb]

You're offensive line goes...

6'4, 258lbs (Seiler)
6'1, 250lbs (Regner)
6'3, 253lbs (Goedekke)
6'3, 245lbs (Swatland)
6'2, 253lbs (Kuechenberg)

Vs my defensive line which goes...

6'5, 265lbs (Tuck)
6'3, 305lbs (Young)
6'1, 282lbs (Zorich)
6'5, 305lbs (Tuitt)

Zorich would be the only fair matchups otherwise it would be like watching modern ND vs a service academy. Your team could double Tuitt and Young all day and they'd still get blown 5 yards back on every play against those monsters. Tuck coming off the edge would be merciless and poor Ken MacAfee would have to contend with Jaylon Smith, a SAM linebacker rushing off the edge that would be faster than any player on your entire team... It would be like watching a scene from Predator.

As great as Fergusson was, Te'o (the size of your guards) and Stonebreaker would meet him at the handoff every play... Because I would be more than confident playing my DB's in press man vs your wide receivers, I'd send Smith on just about every play as well. Theismann wouldn't be able to breathe.

Athletes are like fighter jets. They get better as time goes by. No matter how badly you want to argue that a P-40 Mustang may have been the best fighter for its time, and F-15 would still make a mockery of it head-to-head.

Different times ... different training methods and nutrition.

Back in the pre-1985 days, guys who were 300 lbs were mostly fat, not muscle like today.

I played college ball back in the mid 1960s ... was a 160 lb left guard on offense and MLB on defense. Wouldn't be big enough to be water boy today.

 

[IrishInOntario]

Different times ... different training methods and nutrition.

Back in the pre-1985 days, guys who were 300 lbs were mostly fat, not muscle like today.

I played college ball back in the mid 1960s ... was a 160 lb left guard on offense and MLB on defense. Wouldn't be big enough to be water boy today.

This is my point herb... My guys shouldn't be discreted and handicapped for being bigger, better, faster, athletes... That would be spitting in the face of progression and evolution...

For the record, even with modern training methods and nutrition, only one of the offensive linemen Ara named would have the stature and height to hold the extra weight to be anywhere near big and strong as my OL...

 

[greengael]

Then as Ara pointed out there is no discussion to be had here.

 

[IrishHerb]

This is my point herb... My guys shouldn't be discreted and handicapped for being bigger, better, faster, athletes... That would be spitting in the face of progression and evolution...

For the record, even with modern training methods and nutrition, only one of the offensive linemen Ara named would have the stature and height to hold the extra weight to be anywhere near big and strong as my OL...

Agreed, thats why we can't really compare teams and players of different eras. Just try to find 22 players from ALL the NCAA teams combined from 1950s - 1985 and I'd bet you'd have a hard time finding 22 who could compete with today's teams.

So no real discussion here.

 

[IrishInOntario]

Agreed, thats why we can't really compare teams and players of different eras. Just try to find 22 players from ALL the NCAA teams combined from 1950s - 1985 and I'd bet you'd have a hard time finding 22 who could compete with today's teams.

So no real discussion here.

Agreed

Hence the point of this thread. Ara claimed that Ara's teams from the 70's could beat an All Star team of players from 1985 to present. I contend that even with modern training, it wouldn't be close. His offensive line doesn't have the height to carry 315lbs without being slobs. Outside of Bradley, his DB's with would be crushed athletically by the ND's receiving core. Who would defend 6'5.5, 255lb Tyler Eifert in the middle of the field? Even if he had 10 years of modern training would Bergmeier be able to hang with 6'3, 225lbs Michael Floyd. Afterall, he'd still be 5'9, 185-190lbs and slow footed compared to Floyd.

My team, IMO, doesn't just win because of superior training, they have superior genetics at 80% of the positions as well.

 

[Bodizephax]

Different times ... different training methods and nutrition.

Back in the pre-1985 days, guys who were 300 lbs were mostly fat, not muscle like today.

I played college ball back in the mid 1960s ... was a 160 lb left guard on offense and MLB on defense. Wouldn't be big enough to be water boy today.

I am a lean mean xMarine but I have to disagree with you about fat guys not being tough.

I got knocked out by a 350 pound Samoan outside a bar in Kailua, Hi. back in 1991.

I also got knocked out by a 330 pound Italian guy in N.y back in 1981.

The first man to ever lift 500 lbs over his head was a fat Russian named Vasily Alexav back in the 70's. Also the Dallas Cowboys in the 90's had fat guys like Larry Allen on their great Oline. Don't mess with fat guys !!

 

[john0gaunt]

He's just not starting in my receiving core over one of the most accomplished WR's in ND history.

He's starting over 2 of them. Tate and Floyd. And frankly, he's starting over Tim Brown on some downs. I guess you had to see him to believe him.

Start any other #1 NFL overall pick from ND over him. Especially one drafted as a WR.

And you're not putting in the Rocket at RB, because you're using Ricky Watters for that. You just don't know because I assume you didn't see either play. We haven't had a RB like Ricky Watters since, well, Ricky Watters.

 

[greengael]

Agreed

Hence the point of this thread. Ara claimed that Ara's teams from the 70's could beat an All Star team of players from 1985 to present. I contend that even with modern training, it wouldn't be close. His offensive line doesn't have the height to carry 315lbs without being slobs. Outside of Bradley, his DB's with would be crushed athletically by the ND's receiving core. Who would defend 6'5.5, 255lb Tyler Eifert in the middle of the field? Even if he had 10 years of modern training would Bergmeier be able to hang with 6'3, 225lbs Michael Floyd. Afterall, he'd still be 5'9, 185-190lbs and slow footed compared to Floyd.

My team, IMO, doesn't just win because of superior training, they have superior genetics at 80% of the positions as well.

Once again It AIN'T your team. Now if you used the pre 98 vs. post '98 we might have had a thread with some kind of point, but that doesn't fit your prejudiced logical construct.

 

[Bumpdaddy]

Agreed

Hence the point of this thread. Ara claimed that Ara's teams from the 70's could beat an All Star team of players from 1985 to present. I contend that even with modern training, it wouldn't be close. His offensive line doesn't have the height to carry 315lbs without being slobs. Outside of Bradley, his DB's with would be crushed athletically by the ND's receiving core. Who would defend 6'5.5, 255lb Tyler Eifert in the middle of the field? Even if he had 10 years of modern training would Bergmeier be able to hang with 6'3, 225lbs Michael Floyd. Afterall, he'd still be 5'9, 185-190lbs and slow footed compared to Floyd.

My team, IMO, doesn't just win because of superior training, they have superior genetics at 80% of the positions as well.

I don't think you are fully understanding the objections to your argument. You are only projecting the difference in one direction. You seem to be only looking at it in terms of "what if Burgmeier was brought forward in time and given the same access to modern training?... He'd still get crushed." How about trying to look at it in the other direction. What if Michael Floyd was transported to the 70's. Let's assume he grew up in the 60's and 70's. Had the same diet and training as a typical athlete from that era. It's extremely doubtful he would be the same height and weight and he almost certainly wouldn't have been running a 4.4 40. How do we know that? Because they really didn't have athletes like that in that era and human DNA hasn't changed much in the last 40 years. The environment is the only thing that's significantly changed. I think it's fair to assume Michael Floyd would not have been the same physical specimen in 1970 and the gap between he and Burgmeier wouldn't be as pronounced as you think. When comparing athletes from different eras the only way to fairly assess them is to look at how they fared against their peers from the same era. If an athlete dominated his peers from a given era, an era in which all athletes came from the same environmental conditions, then it's really only fair to assume they would continue to dominate as environmental conditions changed, otherwise, as others have pointed out, there really wouldn't be any reason to ever bring up this kind of discussion.

 

[IrishHerb]

I am a lean mean xMarine but I have to disagree with you about fat guys not being tough.

I got knocked out by a 350 pound Samoan outside a bar in Kailua, Hi. back in 1991.

I also got knocked out by a 330 pound Italian guy in N.y back in 1981.

The first man to ever lift 500 lbs over his head was a fat Russian named Vasily Alexav back in the 70's. Also the Dallas Cowboys in the 90's had fat guys like Larry Allen on their great Oline. Don't mess with fat guys !!

Bodi, Not saying fat guys weren't strong or tough back in the old days ... but how many of them did you see on football fields? Not many. Same as for tall guys in basketball. In the old days, tall guys were a rarity and many of them were not "athletic" like today's tall guys are.

Seems like its simply the way people grow up and are developed now days. They're bigger, faster, etc now than apparently they've ever been. But as Bumpdaddy said earlier ... if the guys from the 1960s grew up today, they'd probably be bigger and faster than they were back in their days too. Who knows?

 

[IrishHerb]

Individual players aside ... an interesting thing would be to compare how players of the past (and present) would have performed under different coaching ... i.e. how would ND's 1966 team have performed had it been coached by Ara, Lou, Charlie Weis, Brian Kelly? Would they have been equally successful under all 4 coaches? Same for ND's 2012 team? If Ara had been coaching it, or Lou?

 

[greengael]

I don't think you are fully understanding the objections to your argument. You are only projecting the difference in one direction. You seem to be only looking at it in terms of "what if Burgmeier was brought forward in time and given the same access to modern training?... He'd still get crushed." How about trying to look at it in the other direction. What if Michael Floyd was transported to the 70's. Let's assume he grew up in the 60's and 70's. Had the same diet and training as a typical athlete from that era. It's extremely doubtful he would be the same height and weight and he almost certainly wouldn't have been running a 4.4 40. How do we know that? Because they really didn't have athletes like that in that era and human DNA hasn't changed much in the last 40 years. The environment is the only thing that's significantly changed. I think it's fair to assume Michael Floyd would not have been the same physical specimen in 1970 and the gap between he and Burgmeier wouldn't be as pronounced as you think. When comparing athletes from different eras the only way to fairly assess them is to look at how they fared against their peers from the same era. If an athlete dominated his peers from a given era, an era in which all athletes came from the same environmental conditions, then it's really only fair to assume they would continue to dominate as environmental conditions changed, otherwise, as others have pointed out, there really wouldn't be any reason to ever bring up this kind of discussion.

Helluva good point!

 

[IrishHerb]

I am a lean mean xMarine but I have to disagree with you about fat guys not being tough.

I got knocked out by a 350 pound Samoan outside a bar in Kailua, Hi. back in 1991.

I also got knocked out by a 330 pound Italian guy in N.y back in 1981.

The first man to ever lift 500 lbs over his head was a fat Russian named Vasily Alexav back in the 70's. Also the Dallas Cowboys in the 90's had fat guys like Larry Allen on their great Oline. Don't mess with fat guys !!

One more thing Bodi ... you said xMarine. Didn't know there was such a thing. I always thought it was once a Marine, always a Marine.

 

[Bodizephax]

One more thing Bodi ... you said xMarine. Didn't know there was such a thing. I always thought it was once a Marine, always a Marine.

X is short for extraordinary.

 

[greengael]

Individual players aside ... an interesting thing would be to compare how players of the past (and present) would have performed under different coaching ... i.e. how would ND's 1966 team have performed had it been coached by Ara, Lou, Charlie Weis, Brian Kelly? Would they have been equally successful under all 4 coaches? Same for ND's 2012 team? If Ara had been coaching it, or Lou?

Or Willingham, Devore, or that guy who went to the Eagles and got a lifetime contract! Kuharic ! [excuse the hyperbole]

 

[greengael]

And in '64 '68 '71etc.etc.

 

[IrishHerb]

I'm glad we'll never know the answer to those questions. Ara did just fine in 1966.

Couldn't agree more.

I loved the style of ball Ara taught. Seemed to be able to adjust his offense and defense depending on his personnel, and was very good at masking any weaknesses they may have had (1965 for example until MSU and Miami).

 

[ftnfan62]

RB is the toughest....Denson, Watters, Brooks.....not sure why, but Lee Becton was always my fav......Don't forget JJ....

 

[echowaker]

Ross Browner did not play between 1985 to 2015---- He played in the 70s. Time flys ! I am getting old !

best nd defensive player ever in my opinion.. only guy i ever saw tape of that was better than him in college was hugh green.

 

[echowaker]

So for 99% of your plays you have the Rocket on the bench? Sorry, you clearly never saw him play.

He's the fastest guy on the team that you list and a number one overall NFL pick. He runs a 4.2 and catches anything thrown his way and you have him sitting down.

Go Irish!

he was picked in the 4th round. he was NEVER the overall # 1 pick. he was actually selected with the 100th pick. fantasy does not count.

 

[echowaker]

Agreed

Hence the point of this thread. Ara claimed that Ara's teams from the 70's could beat an All Star team of players from 1985 to present. I contend that even with modern training, it wouldn't be close. His offensive line doesn't have the height to carry 315lbs without being slobs. Outside of Bradley, his DB's with would be crushed athletically by the ND's receiving core. Who would defend 6'5.5, 255lb Tyler Eifert in the middle of the field? Even if he had 10 years of modern training would Bergmeier be able to hang with 6'3, 225lbs Michael Floyd. Afterall, he'd still be 5'9, 185-190lbs and slow footed compared to Floyd.

My team, IMO, doesn't just win because of superior training, they have superior genetics at 80% of the positions as well.

crable could hang with eifert. he was one of the most underrated players in nd history. i'd take him over teo in a heartbeat. more fundamentally sound and consistent over his entire nd career.