The last 60 years ND Head Coaches with prior experience and without.

[IrishExpert2288]

In the last 60 years, ND has hired 5 coaches with prior head coaching experience (Ara, Devine, Lou, Ty, and BK)
ND has hired 4 coaches with no prior head coaching experience (Faust, Davie, Weis, and Freeman)

The ND coaches with prior head coaching experience combined records and post-season accomplishments (42 seasons)
381-139-7 (73% overall winning percentage)

Post Season
4 National Championships (1966, 1973, 1977 and 1988)
10 Major Bowl Wins (1969,1973,1974,1977,1978,1988,1989,1991,1992,1993)
1 BSCG Appearance (2012)
2 College Football Playoff Semi-Finals (2018 & 2020)
21 Top Ten Finishes in 42 seasons (Ara 9, Devine 3, Lou 5, and BK 4)

The ND coaches with no prior head coaching experience combined records and post-season accomplishments (17 seasons)
116-86-1 (57% overall winning percentage)

Post Season
0-National Championships
0 Major Bowl Wins
0-BSCG Appearances
0-College Football Playoff Appearances
0-Top 10 Finishes in 17 seasons

I am not making a statement about Marcus Freeman or any other coach. I just found the data interesting.

 

[Irishjohn68]

ND has never had any success (leave Rockne out of this) with first time head coaches. ND is simply not the place for on the job training.

 

[deadirishpoet]

In the last 60 years, ND has hired 5 coaches with prior head coaching experience (Ara, Devine, Lou, Ty, and BK)
ND has hired 4 coaches with no prior head coaching experience (Faust, Davie, Weis, and Freeman)

The ND coaches with prior head coaching experience combined records and post-season accomplishments (42 seasons)
381-139-7 (73% overall winning percentage)

Post Season
4 National Championships (1966, 1973, 1977 and 1988)
10 Major Bowl Wins (1969,1973,1974,1977,1978,1988,1989,1991,1992,1993)
1 BSCG Appearance (2012)
2 College Football Playoff Semi-Finals (2018 & 2020)
21 Top Ten Finishes in 42 seasons (Ara 9, Devine 3, Lou 5, and BK 4)

The ND coaches with no prior head coaching experience combined records and post-season accomplishments (17 seasons)
116-86-1 (57% overall winning percentage)

Post Season
0-National Championships
0 Major Bowl Wins
0-BSCG Appearances
0-College Football Playoff Appearances
0-Top 10 Finishes in 17 seasons

I am not making a statement about Marcus Freeman or any other coach. I just found the data interesting.

2005 team finished 9th in the AP

Only Freeman would be considered CFPA/BCSG and it's too early to tell

 

[IrishExpert2288]

2005 team finished 9th in the AP

Only Freeman would be considered CFPA/BCSG and it's too early to tell

I’m aware the 2005 team finished 9th in the AP., so you should be aware the 2005 team finished 11th in the UPI. The 21 teams I listed as finishing in the Top 10 were unanimous Top 10 teams in both polls.

That’s why I left the 2005 team off my Top 10 list. If you want to consider them a Top 10 team have at it.

As I said at the beginning I don’t give opinions or make statements about any ND coach. I let the scoreboard and the W-L record make the statements.

 

[deadirishpoet]

I’m aware the 2005 team finished 9th in the AP., so you should be aware the 2005 team finished 11th in the UPI. The 21 teams I listed as finishing in the Top 10 were unanimous Top 10 teams in both polls.

That’s why I left the 2005 team off my Top 10 list. If you want to consider them a Top 10 team have at it.

As I said at the beginning I don’t give opinions or make statements about any ND coach. I let the scoreboard and the W-L record make the statements.

Um i didn't realize you were only specifically using the UPI thats convenient for your argument, by at least not acknowledging the 2005 with an ( * AP) seems kinda like an opinion.
But in the broader scope of your post you are sadly correct

 

[IrishExpert2288]

The teams in 1964, 1965, 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1974, 1977, 1978, 1980, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1992, 1993, 2012, 2018, 2020 and 2021 were ranked in the Top 10 in BOTH POLS

The 2005 team was NOT. It’s not a matter of convenience it’s just matter of fact.

Having 1/2 a Top 10 team over 17 seasons doesn’t change the fact coaches hired at ND with no prior head coaching experience have struggled.

 

[Juniper_Run]

I love posts with substantial data and research behind them, so thanks for this thread!

I think the obvious counter-argument to prioritizing coaches with head coaching experience is to lift up Kirby Smart and Dabo Swinney. They're arguably 2 of the 3 best coaches of the past decade and each started their gig without any prior experience.

Any thoughts on how to predict who turns out like a Swinney/Smart and who turns out like a Davie/Weis?

 

[4-4-3]

In the last 60 years, ND has hired 5 coaches with prior head coaching experience (Ara, Devine, Lou, Ty, and BK)
ND has hired 4 coaches with no prior head coaching experience (Faust, Davie, Weis, and Freeman)

The ND coaches with prior head coaching experience combined records and post-season accomplishments (42 seasons)
381-139-7 (73% overall winning percentage)

Post Season
4 National Championships (1966, 1973, 1977 and 1988)
10 Major Bowl Wins (1969,1973,1974,1977,1978,1988,1989,1991,1992,1993)
1 BSCG Appearance (2012)
2 College Football Playoff Semi-Finals (2018 & 2020)
21 Top Ten Finishes in 42 seasons (Ara 9, Devine 3, Lou 5, and BK 4)

The ND coaches with no prior head coaching experience combined records and post-season accomplishments (17 seasons)
116-86-1 (57% overall winning percentage)

Post Season
0-National Championships
0 Major Bowl Wins
0-BSCG Appearances
0-College Football Playoff Appearances
0-Top 10 Finishes in 17 seasons

I am not making a statement about Marcus Freeman or any other coach. I just found the data interesting.

So interesting, in fact, that it SPEAKS VOLUMES.

I've often wondered if the reason ND keeps hiring inexperienced coaches is that it gets COMPLACENT after a HIGHLY SUCCESSFUL COACH LEAVES -- feeling that it can merely plug in anyone HANDY who comes off as sufficienly ASPIRATIONAL -- and that this is ALL IT TAKES to keep the CONGA LINE CHUGGING.

If true, this is almost as reckless a thought process as is used by many when getting married. I mean, what's marriage's W/L percentage in this country. .500, give or take?

 

[4-4-3]

The teams in 1964, 1965, 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1974, 1977, 1978, 1980, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1992, 1993, 2012, 2018, 2020 and 2021 were ranked in the Top 10 in BOTH POLS

The 2005 team was NOT. It’s not a matter of convenience it’s just matter of fact.

Having 1/2 a Top 10 team over 17 seasons doesn’t change the fact coaches hired at ND with no prior head coaching experience have struggled.

So, that's 9 Ara's in eleven years; 3 Devines in sx; 4 Holtz's in eleven (not to be confused with the FOUR HOLTZMEN: Tony Brooks, Rodney Culver, Jerome Bettis and Rick Mirer); and four Kelly's in 13.

WHAT COULD BE CLEARER.

But note the TREND LINE when it comes to percentage of years during EACH COACH'S TENURE when the team made the top-ten cut. Running from Ara to Kelly it declines signficantly.

Ara -- 81.8%

Devine -- 50%

Holtz -- 36.3%

Kelly -- 30.7%

Man, if people are expecting MARCUS FREEMAN to HALT this trend line, or even more OPTIMISTICALLY, to REVERSE IT, that strikes me as a lot of PRESSURE on a guy with no pre-ND HC experience.

 

[Golson5]

I love posts with substantial data and research behind them, so thanks for this thread!

I think the obvious counter-argument to prioritizing coaches with head coaching experience is to lift up Kirby Smart and Dabo Swinney. They're arguably 2 of the 3 best coaches of the past decade and each started their gig without any prior experience.

Any thoughts on how to predict who turns out like a Swinney/Smart and who turns out like a Davie/Weis?

No. There's many many examples of first year head coaches who were all time greats

 

[Juniper_Run]

"Golsonophobia" - The persistent and debilitating fear that a thread might progress through normal conversation rather than devolving into a pissing contest between Golson5 and another poster

 

[savvyandsassier]

Well I don't think MF is doing that terribly. The team seems to play hard, the recruiting is pretty good. Just get a kick-ass OC and let him do his thing, and if you're MF don't micromanage him..... meaning put aside your own personal, philosophical preferences and let him do his thing, and things could quite possibly take off for us, because defensively we seem pretty above-average, as kind of the tone-setter for the program. We just need a better offense and the playoff awaits!

But that's a big if, and you gotta be totally committed if you're MF to making this happen and stepping aside and letting an OC install his offense all the way. IMO at least....

 

[Irishjohn68]

No. There's many many examples of first year head coaches who were all time greats

And there are many many more who were not great. You are just cherry picking coaches. It’s proven it doesn’t work at Notre Dame. It’s too bad out AD who has lived through this himself went ahead and did it again.

 

[Irishjohn68]

"Golsonophobia" - The persistent and debilitating fear that a thread might progress through normal conversation rather than devolving into a pissing contest between Golson5 and another poster

Now that’s funny!

 

[Golson5]

And there are many many more who were not great. You are just cherry picking coaches. It’s proven it doesn’t work at Notre Dame. It’s too bad out AD who has lived through this himself went ahead and did it again.

I'm not cherry picking coaches. It happens all the time. What those other coaches did here has zero effect on if MF will become a success or failure. Irrelevant

 

[deadirishpoet]

"Golsonophobia" - The persistent and debilitating fear that a thread might progress through normal conversation rather than devolving into a pissing contest between Golson5 and another poster

I like Golsonn5 but, even he has to admit that is funny

 

[burmafrd1943]

I'm not cherry picking coaches. It happens all the time. What those other coaches did here has zero effect on if MF will become a success or failure. Irrelevant

You claim it happens all the time but show no evidence.
SO to your mind a first time HC is going to do as well as a HC with previous experience is truly stupid.

Notre Dame showed VERY poor judgement in hiring TY, Faust, Weis and Davies.

That is on the admin. BUT it still is STUPID to hire a coach without HC expereince at a high pressure high profile university like Notre Dame.

SO show me first time HCs going into schools that are at the top of the College Football world say top 15 to 20 and do well. Until then you are full of crap as usual

 

[Golson5]

You claim it happens all the time but show no evidence.
SO to your mind a first time HC is going to do as well as a HC with previous experience is truly stupid.

Notre Dame showed VERY poor judgement in hiring TY, Faust, Weis and Davies.

That is on the admin. BUT it still is STUPID to hire a coach without HC expereince at a high pressure high profile university like Notre Dame.

SO show me first time HCs going into schools that are at the top of the College Football world say top 15 to 20 and do well. Until then you are full of crap as usual

Months ago I named like over 25 hall of fame or Championship coaches or other great coaches.

Knute rockne
Joe Paterno
Bob Stoops
Dabo Swinney
Jimbo Fisher
Kirby Smart
Lincoln Riley
Ryan Day
Bud Wilkinson
Vince Dooley
John Mckay
Bobby Dodd
Eddie Robinson
John Robinson
Tom Osborne
Barry Switzer
Lloyd Carr
Philip Fulmer
Barry Alvarez
Bill Snyder
Robert Neyland
LaVell Edwards



Those are some that come to mind but there are many others as well

Not a bad list, huh lol

 

[sjb75]

Months ago I named like over 25 hall of fame or Championship coaches or other great coaches.

Knute rockne
Joe Paterno
Bob Stoops
Dabo Swinney
Jimbo Fisher
Kirby Smart
Lincoln Riley
Ryan Day
Bud Wilkinson
Vince Dooley
John Mckay
Bobby Dodd
Eddie Robinson
John Robinson
Tom Osborne
Barry Switzer
Lloyd Carr
Philip Fulmer
Barry Alvarez
Bill Snyder

Those are some that come to mind but there are many others as well

David Shaw.

We agree.

 

[Irishjohn68]

I'm not cherry picking coaches. It happens all the time. What those other coaches did here has zero effect on if MF will become a success or failure. Irrelevant

BS! Come on you have to be smarter than Pat? Hate to ask but who are all these coaches you talk about? Name all the successful first timers at ND? Go and listen to Ara’s take on coaching at ND. I think he knows more about ND then all of us here will ever know. Lou also agrees with Ara.

 

[Irishjohn68]

Months ago I named like over 25 hall of fame or Championship coaches or other great coaches.

Knute rockne
Joe Paterno
Bob Stoops
Dabo Swinney
Jimbo Fisher
Kirby Smart
Lincoln Riley
Ryan Day
Bud Wilkinson
Vince Dooley
John Mckay
Bobby Dodd
Eddie Robinson
John Robinson
Tom Osborne
Barry Switzer
Lloyd Carr
Philip Fulmer
Barry Alvarez
Bill Snyder
Robert Neyland
LaVell Edwards



Those are some that come to mind but there are many others as well

Not a bad list, huh lol

Other then Knute Rockne I don’t believe any of those men coached at ND.

 

[Irishjohn68]

David Shaw.

We agree.

What did David Shaw ever win? And he also didn’t coach at ND. Pay attention.

 

[Irishjohn68]

You claim it happens all the time but show no evidence.
SO to your mind a first time HC is going to do as well as a HC with previous experience is truly stupid.

Notre Dame showed VERY poor judgement in hiring TY, Faust, Weis and Davies.

That is on the admin. BUT it still is STUPID to hire a coach without HC expereince at a high pressure high profile university like Notre Dame.

SO show me first time HCs going into schools that are at the top of the College Football world say top 15 to 20 and do well. Until then you are full of crap as usual

I agree 1000%

 

[sjb75]

Months ago I named like over 25 hall of fame or Championship coaches or other great coaches.

Knute rockne
Joe Paterno
Bob Stoops
Dabo Swinney
Jimbo Fisher
Kirby Smart
Lincoln Riley
Ryan Day
Bud Wilkinson
Vince Dooley
John Mckay
Bobby Dodd
Eddie Robinson
John Robinson
Tom Osborne
Barry Switzer
Lloyd Carr
Philip Fulmer
Barry Alvarez
Bill Snyder
Robert Neyland
LaVell Edwards



Those are some that come to mind but there are many others as well

Not a bad list, huh lol

Dan Lanning is off to a really good start as well.

 

[deadirishpoet]

What did David Shaw ever win? And he also didn’t coach at ND. Pay attention.

He won a Rose Bowl, though he did coach at a university with higher academic requirements and with far less support from the student body

 

[Golson5]

Other then Knute Rockne I don’t believe any of those men coached at ND.

He didn't ask for only ND coaches. Try to keep up. But the list did include one of our own and one of the top 5 coaches in cfb history who did coach at.....NOTRE DAME

 

[IrishExpert2288]

Switzer, Osborne, J Robinson, L Carr, B Stoops, Swinney, Kirby, are first time coaches who won National Championships and carried on sustained success

L Riley, R Day, are first time coaches who have had sustained success at the highest level, but have yet to win it all.

But, that’s OU, Nebraska, USC, Michigan Clemson & Georgia. ND has not yet cracked the code. Yet…

 

[Golson5]

Switzer, Osborne, J Robinson, L Carr, B Stoops, Swinney, Kirby, are first time coaches who won National Championships and carried on sustained success

L Riley, R Day, are first time coaches who have had sustained success at the highest level, but have yet to win it all.

But, that’s OU, Nebraska, USC, Michigan Clemson & Georgia. ND has not yet cracked the code. Yet…

Knute Rockne says hello

 

[JY09]

In the last 60 years, ND has hired 5 coaches with prior head coaching experience (Ara, Devine, Lou, Ty, and BK)
ND has hired 4 coaches with no prior head coaching experience (Faust, Davie, Weis, and Freeman)

The ND coaches with prior head coaching experience combined records and post-season accomplishments (42 seasons)
381-139-7 (73% overall winning percentage)

Post Season
4 National Championships (1966, 1973, 1977 and 1988)
10 Major Bowl Wins (1969,1973,1974,1977,1978,1988,1989,1991,1992,1993)
1 BSCG Appearance (2012)
2 College Football Playoff Semi-Finals (2018 & 2020)
21 Top Ten Finishes in 42 seasons (Ara 9, Devine 3, Lou 5, and BK 4)

The ND coaches with no prior head coaching experience combined records and post-season accomplishments (17 seasons)
116-86-1 (57% overall winning percentage)

Post Season
0-National Championships
0 Major Bowl Wins
0-BSCG Appearances
0-College Football Playoff Appearances
0-Top 10 Finishes in 17 seasons

I am not making a statement about Marcus Freeman or any other coach. I just found the data interesting.

Thanks for posting. I had been wondering about this but I do not have time to do the research.
The data are shocking.

 

[Granite45]

HAve you also researched how the rules have changed? Compared the effects of the rule changes?

Mostly just meaningless comparions/

 

[scubastevefl]

There’s zero guarantee on coaches, zero, everybody is looking for a formula or metric that will guarantee a homerun hire, it doesn’t exist. Jumbo’s natty at FSU didn’t carry over to A&M. All of Chip Kelly’s success at Oregon didn’t come to UCLA. I’m tired of the “prior head coachingl experience” argument.

 

[IrishExpert2288]

HAve you also researched how the rules have changed? Compared the effects of the rule changes?

Mostly just meaningless comparions/

There’s zero guarantee on coaches, zero, everybody is looking for a formula or metric that will guarantee a homerun hire, it doesn’t exist. Jumbo’s natty at FSU didn’t carry over to A&M. All of Chip Kelly’s success at Oregon didn’t come to UCLA. I’m tired of the “prior head coachingl experience” arguments

It’s just data, I wasn’t making an argument. Adios cry babies

 

[Granite45]

. Adios cry babies

Now, name-calling? I did not criticizw, just commented on meaningless comparison of the data over the different ears with different rules.

 

[nd4life211]

Great post. How Swarbrick didn't consider this prior to making a hire is baffling.

Wake and Stanford are anything but sure wins. I think Leipold or Kleinman would have been home run hires and this year would have been a playoff season.