Terry Brennan: Sour grapes or Indictment of the time?

[theskibro]

Former fifties coach Terry Brennan came out with a book that channels his bitterness for being fired from ND. Asked to resign by Fathers Joyce n Hesburgh, he declined.

Apparently, the former 32-18 coach feels bitter to this day that he was wronged after following the successful Frank Leahy. He cites it being impossible to win because of strict policies on admission and scholarships

Probably true to some extent but years ago when you don’t win, you lose your job. Today you get “accident forgiveness” and government money and can write a book

He was followed by Kucharich, a friend of Joyce. It would be a long time until Ara. But Ara won with the same policies

Redirect Notice

 

[Ara64]

12 years between Hugh Devore 9-9 and the end of the Joe Kuharich years. It was second to the 14 years from Bob Davie through Charlie Weis years. From my readings the firing of Terry Brennan was not very popular among the student body. The sentiment was the administration dealt harshly with the former coach being a Notre Dame man. Ara and his coaching staff took players that were use to losing (2-7) and made them winners the first year of his era. It ushered in the Era of Ara. He won 84% of the games he coached at Notre Dame.

 

[Okie70]

I do remember he coached pretty good against OU in 1957. Was in the north end zone for that game.

 

[tbonesays]

He's still alive?

Hired at 25??

 

[Ara64]

I just checked and Coach is still alive at 93.

Terry Brennan - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[4-4-3]

Former fifties coach Terry Brennan came out with a book that channels his bitterness for being fired from ND. Asked to resign by Fathers Joyce n Hesburgh, he declined.

Apparently, the former 32-18 coach feels bitter to this day that he was wronged after following the successful Frank Leahy. He cites it being impossible to win because of strict policies on admission and scholarships

Probably true to some extent but years ago when you don’t win, you lose your job. Today you get “accident forgiveness” and government money and can write a book

He was followed by Kucharich, a friend of Joyce. It would be a long time until Ara. But Ara won with the same policies

Redirect Notice

I'm friendly with a nephew of Brennan's, and we've discussed this. The bitterness has never abated.

I saw Brennan's 57 team beat Army, and they -- that scrappy ND team -- were a spirited bunch. Stopped Oklahoma's 47 game win streak later in the year as well by basically dismantling the Sooners with a suffocating D.

That same OU team -- NC winners two straight years -- had beaten ND at ND the prior year, 40-0.

So, big things were expected of ND in 58 -- they were preseason ranked 1, 2 or 3 -- but they lost to powerful Army and Iowa teams, while losing squeakers to Pitt (last 8 seconds) and Purdue, two teams they were better than.

In any event, my sense is that Brennan's firing was PREMATURE. In comparison, after 5 seasons, Kelly's winning percentage wasn't much better -- 69% to Brennan's 64%. And if Kelly got his 12 team into the NC game, Brennan had back to back 9-1 and 8-2 seasons in 54 and 55.

Besides, Brennan had only one really bad year, though at 2-8, it was hellacious and like nothing ND had ever seen before. Still, if Kelly's 7th season -- his own horror show -- had been his 6th, his 6 year winning percentage would have been below Brennan's at 63%. As it turned out, it was only 65.6% after his 7th season -- one which was almost as ruinous as Brennan's 56 season.

So, I ask you, in all fairness, how does Brennan get fired with a 64% winning percentage while Kelly survives at 65.5.%, two years further in. What else could it be than ND's acceptance that by the time Kelly arrived, a) relatively diminished returns had become "acceptable," b) if there was EVER going to be a turnaround, it would be under Brian Kelly or no one, and c) as a consequence, there was no longer the same sense urgency over "returning to glory."

After all, Kelly was replacing Weis, not Leahy, a virtual ND god. So, the bar was a HELL OF A LOT LOWER.

All that said, there's a story that's been going around for years that the REAL REASON Brennan was fired is that he lost control of the team and that over the weekend of its salvaging final 58 season victory over USC, it TRASHED THE HOTEL IT WAS STAYING AT in L.A.

I've heard this from at least two sources. According to the story, Brennan stayed at another hotel, and things where the players stayed simply got out of hand. Whether this is legend or truth I have no idea, but if anyone has any information on this, I'd love to hear it.

If indeed the story is true, Brennan's firing might appear at least somewhat more plausible. There were many who thought he was simply too young. And like Faust, he'd only been a high school coach, albeit, again like Faust, a good one. So, one could argue that his premature FIRING might also have been the result of what some came to regard as his premature HIRING.

For me, it remains something of a tragedy as it does to my crony, his nephew. Why? Because I never saw evidence that Brennan wouldn't have developed into a good coach. And I've never felt a moment's hesitation in thinking he wouldn't have outperformed Kuharich and Devore. He simply didn't get the chance. Sometimes, it takes a little longer than anticipated. But it still may come through in the end.

Look at BRIAN KELLY.

As for ND, it's lucky to have found not only him but Parseghian. If Brennan's axing and those horrible years under Kuharich and Devore were the price for snatching Parseghian away from NW, well, in the end, it DAMN WELL worked out. But that may not be how Brennan sees it.

 

[Ara64]

There's light years difference between Father Ted and Father Jenkins. I remember Ara's story about Father Ted telling him that he expected result the right way; any scandal and ND would refuse the championship and he would have been fired immediately. BK would have been fired after going 4-8 in his 7th season at ND or the scandal that cost ND 21 vacated wins by the NCAA if Father Ted was still President. I was surprised Lou made it passed his first season after posting a 5-6 record.

 

[tbonesays]

I'm friendly with a nephew of Brennan's, and we've discussed this. The bitterness has never abated.

I saw Brennan's 57 team beat Army, and they -- that scrappy ND team -- were a spirited bunch. Stopped Oklahoma's 47 game win streak later in the year as well by basically dismantling the Sooners with a suffocating D.

That same OU team -- NC winners two straight years -- had beaten ND at ND the prior year, 40-0.

So, big things were expected of ND in 58 -- they were preseason ranked 1, 2 or 3 -- but they lost to powerful Army and Iowa teams, while losing squeakers to Pitt (last 8 seconds) and Purdue, two teams they were better than.

In any event, my sense is that Brennan's firing was PREMATURE. In comparison, after 5 seasons, Kelly's winning percentage wasn't much better -- 69% to Brennan's 64%. And if Kelly got his 12 team into the NC game, Brennan had back to back 9-1 and 8-2 seasons in 54 and 55.

Besides, Brennan had only one really bad year, though at 2-8, it was hellacious and like nothing ND had ever seen before. Still, if Kelly's 7th season -- his own horror show -- had been his 6th, his 6 year winning percentage would have been below Brennan's at 63%. As it turned out, it was only 65.6% after his 7th season -- one which was almost as ruinous as Brennan's 56 season.

So, I ask you, in all fairness, how does Brennan get fired with a 64% winning percentage while Kelly survives at 65.5.%, two years further in. What else could it be than ND's acceptance that by the time Kelly arrived, a) relatively diminished returns had become "acceptable," b) if there was EVER going to be a turnaround, it would be under Brian Kelly or no one, and c) as a consequence, there was no longer the same sense urgency over "returning to glory."

After all, Kelly was replacing Weis, not Leahy, a virtual ND god. So, the bar was a HELL OF A LOT LOWER.

All that said, there's a story that's been going around for years that the REAL REASON Brennan was fired is that he lost control of the team and that over the weekend of its salvaging final 58 season victory over USC, it TRASHED THE HOTEL IT WAS STAYING AT in L.A.

I've heard this from at least two sources. According to the story, Brennan stayed at another hotel, and things where the players stayed simply got out of hand. Whether this is legend or truth I have no idea, but if anyone has any information on this, I'd love to hear it.

If indeed the story is true, Brennan's firing might appear at least somewhat more plausible. There were many who thought he was simply too young. And like Faust, he'd only been a high school coach, albeit, again like Faust, a good one. So, one could argue that his premature FIRING might also have been the result of what some came to regard as his premature HIRING.

For me, it remains something of a tragedy as it does to my crony, his nephew. Why? Because I never saw evidence that Brennan wouldn't have developed into a good coach. And I've never felt a moment's hesitation in thinking he wouldn't have outperformed Kuharich and Devore. He simply didn't get the chance. Sometimes, it takes a little longer than anticipated. But it still may come through in the end.

Look at BRIAN KELLY.

As for ND, it's lucky to have found not only him but Parseghian. If Brennan's axing and those horrible years under Kuharich and Devore were the price for snatching Parseghian away from NW, well, in the end, it DAMN WELL worked out. But that may not be how Brennan sees it.

Kelly did not think that a 6-4 [8-5] season would save his job. Mr Brennan apparently thought it an accomplishment.

 

[Drinking The Green Koolaid]

I'm friendly with a nephew of Brennan's, and we've discussed this. The bitterness has never abated.

I saw Brennan's 57 team beat Army, and they -- that scrappy ND team -- were a spirited bunch. Stopped Oklahoma's 47 game win streak later in the year as well by basically dismantling the Sooners with a suffocating D.

That same OU team -- NC winners two straight years -- had beaten ND at ND the prior year, 40-0.

So, big things were expected of ND in 58 -- they were preseason ranked 1, 2 or 3 -- but they lost to powerful Army and Iowa teams, while losing squeakers to Pitt (last 8 seconds) and Purdue, two teams they were better than.

In any event, my sense is that Brennan's firing was PREMATURE. In comparison, after 5 seasons, Kelly's winning percentage wasn't much better -- 69% to Brennan's 64%. And if Kelly got his 12 team into the NC game, Brennan had back to back 9-1 and 8-2 seasons in 54 and 55.

Besides, Brennan had only one really bad year, though at 2-8, it was hellacious and like nothing ND had ever seen before. Still, if Kelly's 7th season -- his own horror show -- had been his 6th, his 6 year winning percentage would have been below Brennan's at 63%. As it turned out, it was only 65.6% after his 7th season -- one which was almost as ruinous as Brennan's 56 season.

So, I ask you, in all fairness, how does Brennan get fired with a 64% winning percentage while Kelly survives at 65.5.%, two years further in. What else could it be than ND's acceptance that by the time Kelly arrived, a) relatively diminished returns had become "acceptable," b) if there was EVER going to be a turnaround, it would be under Brian Kelly or no one, and c) as a consequence, there was no longer the same sense urgency over "returning to glory."

After all, Kelly was replacing Weis, not Leahy, a virtual ND god. So, the bar was a HELL OF A LOT LOWER.

All that said, there's a story that's been going around for years that the REAL REASON Brennan was fired is that he lost control of the team and that over the weekend of its salvaging final 58 season victory over USC, it TRASHED THE HOTEL IT WAS STAYING AT in L.A.

I've heard this from at least two sources. According to the story, Brennan stayed at another hotel, and things where the players stayed simply got out of hand. Whether this is legend or truth I have no idea, but if anyone has any information on this, I'd love to hear it.

If indeed the story is true, Brennan's firing might appear at least somewhat more plausible. There were many who thought he was simply too young. And like Faust, he'd only been a high school coach, albeit, again like Faust, a good one. So, one could argue that his premature FIRING might also have been the result of what some came to regard as his premature HIRING.

For me, it remains something of a tragedy as it does to my crony, his nephew. Why? Because I never saw evidence that Brennan wouldn't have developed into a good coach. And I've never felt a moment's hesitation in thinking he wouldn't have outperformed Kuharich and Devore. He simply didn't get the chance. Sometimes, it takes a little longer than anticipated. But it still may come through in the end.

Look at BRIAN KELLY.

As for ND, it's lucky to have found not only him but Parseghian. If Brennan's axing and those horrible years under Kuharich and Devore were the price for snatching Parseghian away from NW, well, in the end, it DAMN WELL worked out. But that may not be how Brennan sees it.

That is an interesting perspective on Brennan's career at ND. Thanks for sharing. One might have thought that an unranked ND team going down to Norman in 1957 and beating a #2 ranked OU team riding a 47-game winning streak might have bought Brennan a little more love, but I suppose the many years of winning under Leahy raised the bar pretty high for Brennan, as you speculate. I think some of the misgivings about Kelly expressed here on this board might certainly be different had he gone into Tuscaloosa, Columbus, or Clemson during the past few seasons and come home with a victory against one of those juggernaut programs. Kelly hasn't needed a resume-building win like that because the bar is much lower for him after the disappointments of the Davie/Willingham/Weis years.

 

[burmafrd1943]

When you succeed a coach that accomplished great things like Leahy, the bar is higher. This claim he would have developed as a coach is of course pure speculation.

I too have heard that Brennan's firing came about because of both his record and that incident in LA.

Bragging about a 64% win record does not work at ND. I hope it never will.

Brennan in the end could not continue the tradition of ND contending for NC's and that was the real failure.

 

[burmafrd1943]

With all due respect to Terry Brennan, continuing a grudge for over 60 years is really petty.

 

[Drinking The Green Koolaid]

With all due respect to Terry Brennan, continuing a grudge for over 60 years is really petty.

I've never had the misfortune of being dismissed from a job, but I suppose if I had, it may have left me a little salty about it, even with the passage of time, if I thought the reasons for the dismissal were unfair. I've not read the book that the Sun Times newspaper article is about, so what we are getting is a newspaper writer's impression of how Brennan felt about his dismissal. Who knows whether that impression is an accurate characterization of Brennan's actual feelings.

As the author of the book concedes, it might have been more appropriate to write the book while Fathers Hesburgh and Joyce were still alive, so that they were given an opportunity to speak to the reasons why (from their perspective) Brennan was dismissed. This may be one of those situations where there is a little bit of truth in what everyone has to say. I know Father Hesburgh had an abiding love for ND, and as difficult as it may have been to dismiss Brennan, I am quite certain that he believed it was the right thing to do.

In the end, and like it or not, being a head football coach is all about your record, and maybe that is something that Brennan has been unwilling or unable to accept after all these years.

 

[Patrirish]

There's light years difference between Father Ted and Father Jenkins. I remember Ara's story about Father Ted telling him that he expected result the right way; any scandal and ND would refuse the championship and he would have been fired immediately. BK would have been fired after going 4-8 in his 7th season at ND or the scandal that cost ND 21 vacated wins by the NCAA if Father Ted was still President. I was surprised Lou made it passed his first season after posting a 5-6 record.

Not true, Father Jenkins agreed to abide by the NCAA outcome prior to the outcome.

Father Ted wasn’t that naive nor that obtuse and NEVER would have agreed to a verdict before it was rendered !

 

[Ara64]

Isn't that a difference between the two men? WHAT did I say that wasn't true?

 

[tbonesays]

That is an interesting perspective on Brennan's career at ND. Thanks for sharing. One might have thought that an unranked ND team going down to Norman in 1957 and beating a #2 ranked OU team riding a 47-game winning streak might have bought Brennan a little more love, but I suppose the many years of winning under Leahy raised the bar pretty high for Brennan, as you speculate. I think some of the misgivings about Kelly expressed here on this board might certainly be different had he gone into Tuscaloosa, Columbus, or Clemson during the past few seasons and come home with a victory against one of those juggernaut programs. Kelly hasn't needed a resume-building win like that because the bar is much lower for him after the disappointments of the Davie/Willingham/Weis years.

the change in perspective is definitely true. What may not be true is if there was such a thing as a "contract extension" in 1957 for college coaches. BK has had a knack for rattling off 10+ wins whenever he was on the hot seat. he did that thrice. I don't see that Brennan had one shining season that indicated he was on the path to rebuild the team.

And how did he get hired as ND football coach at age 25? Wasn't that even more of an anomaly back in the 50s?

 

[4-4-3]

There's light years difference between Father Ted and Father Jenkins. I remember Ara's story about Father Ted telling him that he expected result the right way; any scandal and ND would refuse the championship and he would have been fired immediately. BK would have been fired after going 4-8 in his 7th season at ND or the scandal that cost ND 21 vacated wins by the NCAA if Father Ted was still President. I was surprised Lou made it passed his first season after posting a 5-6 record.

Good points.

Logic supported by history is always strong grounds for informed speculation.

But here's the irony about Hesburgh. He cut back Brennan's recruiting slots in advance of his being hired and gave them to Leahy, then said we're deemphasizing football. And yet he wanted immediate results?

While I agree with your interpretation, what sort of revered man would be so tyrannical as to cut a guy's legs out from under him and then expect him to perform like Leahy even after saying football will no longer be that important?

Seems nuts.

 

[Patrirish]

Isn't that a difference between the two men? WHAT did I say that wasn't true?

What’s not true is your claim that BK would have been fired after the NCAA verdict.

Father Jenkins agreed to abide by the NCAA’s ruling, without the right of appeal, prior to the NCAA’s rendering. Father Ted NEVER would have agreed to such an outrageous and foolish arrangement !

The NCAA deemed a student to be a University employee.

When you compare ND’s case with UNC’s case, the NCAA’s decision was even more outrageous.

 

[4-4-3]

That is an interesting perspective on Brennan's career at ND. Thanks for sharing. One might have thought that an unranked ND team going down to Norman in 1957 and beating a #2 ranked OU team riding a 47-game winning streak might have bought Brennan a little more love, but I suppose the many years of winning under Leahy raised the bar pretty high for Brennan, as you speculate. I think some of the misgivings about Kelly expressed here on this board might certainly be different had he gone into Tuscaloosa, Columbus, or Clemson during the past few seasons and come home with a victory against one of those juggernaut programs. Kelly hasn't needed a resume-building win like that because the bar is much lower for him after the disappointments of the Davie/Willingham/Weis years.

Happy to oblige.

I was just a kid at the time, but I was PAYING ATTENTION. Seemed like Brennan got a very QUICK HOOK. That's why I'm so interested in the hotel-trashing story. Because if it happened, it would surely have gotten him the ROCKET.

And I don't mean Ismail!

 

[Patrirish]

Good points.

Logic supported by history is always strong grounds for informed speculation.

But here's the irony about Hesburgh. He cut back Brennan's recruiting slots in advance of his being hired and gave them to Leahy, then said we're deemphasizing football. And yet he wanted immediate results?

While I agree with your interpretation, what sort of revered man would be so tyrannical as to cut a guy's legs out from under him and then expect him to perform like Leahy even after saying football will no longer be that important?

Seems nuts.

I’m not so sure that Father Hesburgh expected immediate high performance results.
From 1956 to 1964 you couldn’t tell that from the record

 

[4-4-3]

Kelly did not think that a 6-4 [8-5] season would save his job. Mr Brennan apparently thought it an accomplishment.

Brennan didn't at all think it an accomplishment. But he didn't believe it was grounds for firing either.

Except for the 56 implosion, all of his teams were ranked:

54 -- 4
55 -- 9
57 --10
58 --17

The year he was fired -- 58 -- he beat SMU (17), Navy (15) and North Carolina (11), losing to Army (3), Purdue (15) and Iowa (6).

ND played no MEATBALLS in those days. NO MAC teams or the like. That 58 schedule was the THIRD toughest in the country.

To me, the guy deserved another shot. Especially since they didn't allow him the weapons Leahy had had and yet still expected him to produce. What did they think Brennan was -- a superman? Do more than Leahy -- of all people -- WITH LESS?

Different world.

 

[4-4-3]

When you succeed a coach that accomplished great things like Leahy, the bar is higher. This claim he would have developed as a coach is of course pure speculation.

I too have heard that Brennan's firing came about because of both his record and that incident in LA.

Bragging about a 64% win record does not work at ND. I hope it never will.

Brennan in the end could not continue the tradition of ND contending for NC's and that was the real failure.

Do you recall your source for the LA incident?

 

[theskibro]

Do you recall your source for the LA incident?

Jenkins us a woke loser

 

[4-4-3]

When you succeed a coach that accomplished great things like Leahy, the bar is higher. This claim he would have developed as a coach is of course pure speculation.

I too have heard that Brennan's firing came about because of both his record and that incident in LA.

Bragging about a 64% win record does not work at ND. I hope it never will.

Brennan in the end could not continue the tradition of ND contending for NC's and that was the real failure.

Just to be clear, I didn't speculate that Brennan would have necessarily developed as a coach. I merely said that I saw no evidence at the time that he wouldn't have. It's a fine distinction but a distinction nonetheless and why I worded it that way, my point being that -- for whatever reason -- they didn't give him the chance, even after producing four ranked teams in five years.

 

[4-4-3]

the change in perspective is definitely true. What may not be true is if there was such a thing as a "contract extension" in 1957 for college coaches. BK has had a knack for rattling off 10+ wins whenever he was on the hot seat. he did that thrice. I don't see that Brennan had one shining season that indicated he was on the path to rebuild the team.

And how did he get hired as ND football coach at age 25? Wasn't that even more of an anomaly back in the 50s?

Brennan had won some kind of HS championship as a head coach in Chicago. Mt. Carmel? Or he'd gone undefeated. Something like that. He was then hired by ND as an assistant.

Leahy had cut a deal to get Hesburgh to allow in more recruits during his last year or two, which Brennan then had to give back once he was hired. So, Leahy in effect sandbagged the next coach, albeit unwittingly, unless he knew he was stepping down even before his heart attack -- or whatever it was -- during the 53 Georgia Tech game.

But if Leahy then nominated Brennan as his successor -- something I have no idea about -- he would have known what a handicap he'd be working under. And certainly Hesburgh knew. So, in one way, inadvertently or not, Brennan was in effect set up.

As for the lack of a shining season, given the dearth of recruiting spots he inherited, it's no small feat he did as well as he did, though he did also inherit some extremely good Leahy recruits, Hornung, Jim Morse, Don Schaefer and Ed Sullivan among them.

Still, in 57 -- with Leahy's players gone -- ND beat 2nd-ranked OU, and 10th ranked Army, while all three losses were to ranked teams: MSU (4th), Iowa (8th) and Navy (16th). As a result, ND was ranked 10th at year end.

58 was a small step backwards, not an implosion. And no other ND coach has ever been fired, other than Ty, after having a winning season. And Ty's team, under Kent Baer after the bowl game loss, finished 6-6. Had Ty coached that game, odds are it wouldn't have turned out differently. Oregon State destroyed ND.

Particularly if the L.A. incident happened, I wonder if Brennan's firing wasn't all a case of BUYER'S REMORSE on ND's part. A rash hiring and a kind of reflex firing.

 

[4-4-3]

I’m not so sure that Father Hesburgh expected immediate high performance results.
From 1956 to 1964 you couldn’t tell that from the record

I'm not sure either.

When you think of it, the whole thing smells a bit. Brennan gets fired after 32-18 while Kuharich is allowed a fourth season after going 12-18. That's as many losses as Brennan in three-fifths the amount of time but 20 FEWER VICTORIES.

People have speculated that Kuharich was connected, whereas the way I see it, Brennan may have never been on firm ground.

 

[Ara64]

We need to give Father Ted some slack because of his lack of experience in dealing with Coach Brennan. He was newly appointed president and we all make mistakes often on new jobs. Also look how much he grew when it came to Jerry Faust. Faust was a mess coming in and going out, but Father Ted gave him time to figure it out. I just thought that maybe there was some personality clash between the two men? Possible I guess? Those type of issues are seldom exposed when it comes to ND affairs.

 

[Ara64]

What’s not true is your claim that BK would have been fired after the NCAA verdict.

Father Jenkins agreed to abide by the NCAA’s ruling, without the right of appeal, prior to the NCAA’s rendering. Father Ted NEVER would have agreed to such an outrageous and foolish arrangement !

The NCAA deemed a student to be a University employee.

When you compare ND’s case with UNC’s case, the NCAA’s decision was even more outrageous.

What did Father Ted tell Ara, Any hint of scandal and you will be fired. IF Ara had 21 games vacated by the NCAA then yes he would be fired on the spot. Father Ted would have fired BK faster than he hired him.

 

[burmafrd1943]

I'm not sure either.

When you think of it, the whole thing smells a bit. Brennan gets fired after 32-18 while Kuharich is allowed a fourth season after going 12-18. That's as many losses as Brennan in three-fifths the amount of time but 20 FEWER VICTORIES.

People have speculated that Kuharich was connected, whereas the way I see it, Brennan may have never been on firm ground.

Joe Kuharich was from all accounts a truly likeable guy. That might have factored in as regards how long he lasted.

 

[burmafrd1943]

One thing all must remember; when Leahy left there was some serious talk around about how his win at all costs mentality was wrong for ND. The fake injuries, etc. To be blunt at that time the expectation every year for ND was at least 8-2. AT LEAST. Now needless to say this kind of caused some confusion; how do you expect coaches to be nice guys and obey all the rules and so on and then pressure them to win and contend for NC every other year or so.

So maybe it was no surprise that things went sideways until Ara.

 

[burmafrd1943]

There were several books written in the 60's and 70's about ND football. One of them was my source for the LA incident but its been so long since I read them I have no idea which one it was.

I think it might have been From Rockne to Parseghian

 

[burmafrd1943]

One thing that never made any sense to me was the idea of hiring a coach at a high pressure place like ND that had never been a College HC before. It did not work out for Brennan or Faust or Weis.

 

[theskibro]

One thing that never made any sense to me was the idea of hiring a coach at a high pressure place like ND that had never been a College HC before. It did not work out for Brennan or Faust or Weis.

I think it reasonably accurate to say that after Leahy and up until the present day meaning Swarbrick — the ND Administration Had no clue what it was doing in hiring coaches and in fact created an environment counter to achieving success by insisting on balance between academics and athletic accomplishment

As a poster cited, there was a backlash post Leahy on ND emphasizing winning. Hence we had terrible hires

Brennan had ample time to win. He did not. More bad hires and then Ara. ND won because of a great coach in Ara. Not because the admin did anything brilliant. They almost did not hire him. Ara fought for the job

Then more bad hires. Finally Lou. I will give the admin credit here but only because if Rosenthal. Then they s- can Rosenthal for idiot Wadsworth and Lou leaves

Then they hire morons like Kevin White as AD and more bad coaches get rich with contract extensions

So until Swrabrick it has been just horrendous management of the program except for Rosenthal hiring Lou

Ara won. Lou won. All the others simply did not. No excuses. They were lousy

 

[Golson5]

I think it reasonably accurate to say that after Leahy and up until the present day meaning Swarbrick — the ND Administration Had no clue what it was doing in hiring coaches and in fact created an environment counter to achieving success by insisting on balance between academics and athletic accomplishment

As a poster cited, there was a backlash post Leahy on ND emphasizing winning. Hence we had terrible hires

Brennan had ample time to win. He did not. More bad hires and then Ara. ND won because of a great coach in Ara. Not because the admin did anything brilliant. They almost did not hire him. Ara fought for the job

Then more bad hires. Finally Lou. I will give the admin credit here but only because if Rosenthal. Then they s- can Rosenthal for idiot Wadsworth and Lou leaves

Then they hire morons like Kevin White as AD and more bad coaches get rich with contract extensions

So until Swrabrick it has been just horrendous management of the program except for Rosenthal hiring Lou

Ara won. Lou won. All the others simply did not. No excuses. They were lousy

Devine wasnt lousy

 

[Ara64]

I think it reasonably accurate to say that after Leahy and up until the present day meaning Swarbrick — the ND Administration Had no clue what it was doing in hiring coaches and in fact created an environment counter to achieving success by insisting on balance between academics and athletic accomplishment

As a poster cited, there was a backlash post Leahy on ND emphasizing winning. Hence we had terrible hires

Brennan had ample time to win. He did not. More bad hires and then Ara. ND won because of a great coach in Ara. Not because the admin did anything brilliant. They almost did not hire him. Ara fought for the job

Then more bad hires. Finally Lou. I will give the admin credit here but only because if Rosenthal. Then they s- can Rosenthal for idiot Wadsworth and Lou leaves

Then they hire morons like Kevin White as AD and more bad coaches get rich with contract extensions

So until Swrabrick it has been just horrendous management of the program except for Rosenthal hiring Lou

Ara won. Lou won. All the others simply did not. No excuses. They were lousy

Not sure where you got your information on Ara but from Ara's own lips and other places I read; the hire went very quickly and Father Ted offered him the job on the the spot. ND was very familiar with Parseghian since his Northwestern team had beaten ND four times. Ara left NW because he felt unsupported by the administration and AD; he never had that problem at ND. when he informed Father Ted that he was retiring for family and health reason; Father Ted told Ara to take a leave for as long as it took. Ara felt that would be unfair and he wanted to coach in the NFL. Family tragedy changed Ara's path course. He never coached in the NFL; he never coached again.

How could you call Dan Devine 6 years anything but successful? 53-16-1 .764 with a national championship. Lou finished his time at ND with a .765 and a national championship.





"One thing I can say is we're going to work hard. I mean real hard. … The harder you work, the less mistakes you make. The fewer mistakes you make, the better your chances of winning."

 

[4-4-3]

We need to give Father Ted some slack because of his lack of experience in dealing with Coach Brennan. He was newly appointed president and we all make mistakes often on new jobs. Also look how much he grew when it came to Jerry Faust. Faust was a mess coming in and going out, but Father Ted gave him time to figure it out. I just thought that maybe there was some personality clash between the two men? Possible I guess? Those type of issues are seldom exposed when it comes to ND affairs.

Fair points. And, yes, there may have been some animosity. There certainly appears to have been between Hesburgh and Leahy. Seems Hesburgh saw Leahy as too much while coming to see Brennan as too little.

Needle threading can be difficult when dealing with a Goldilocks-minded person.

Check out this 2013 piece from The Oklahoman.

Brennan's D against OU in 57

A few points from the piece:

• As per Brennan, Hesburgh actually FIRED Leahy. Leahy's son agreed.
• How ND's D stopped OU on 3rd down, short yardage.
• The scholarship reduction Brennan faced in his first few years.
• In 57, 8 of ND's 10 opponents were ranked in the top 16.
• In 58, the schedule also included 8 ranked teams. Also with 10 opponents.

And when you think of it, these were all young men -- Leahy, 45, Hesburgh in his mid-thirties and Brennan, 30.

A lot of EGO at issue.

 

[4-4-3]

Joe Kuharich was from all accounts a truly likeable guy. That might have factored in as regards how long he lasted.

True, but you know the old saying.

"Nice guys finish last."

Not ALWAYS true, but there's certainly an argument to be made that it can and does happen often enough.

At ND, it seems to have happened not only with Kuharich but also Faust.

 

[4-4-3]

One thing that never made any sense to me was the idea of hiring a coach at a high pressure place like ND that had never been a College HC before. It did not work out for Brennan or Faust or Weis.

And yet they kept doing it.

Calling Dr. Einstein.

 

[4-4-3]

I think it reasonably accurate to say that after Leahy and up until the present day meaning Swarbrick — the ND Administration Had no clue what it was doing in hiring coaches and in fact created an environment counter to achieving success by insisting on balance between academics and athletic accomplishment

As a poster cited, there was a backlash post Leahy on ND emphasizing winning. Hence we had terrible hires

Brennan had ample time to win. He did not. More bad hires and then Ara. ND won because of a great coach in Ara. Not because the admin did anything brilliant. They almost did not hire him. Ara fought for the job

Then more bad hires. Finally Lou. I will give the admin credit here but only because if Rosenthal. Then they s- can Rosenthal for idiot Wadsworth and Lou leaves

Then they hire morons like Kevin White as AD and more bad coaches get rich with contract extensions

So until Swrabrick it has been just horrendous management of the program except for Rosenthal hiring Lou

Ara won. Lou won. All the others simply did not. No excuses. They were lousy

I would take issue with a few of your specifics, but they're not relevant enough to get sidetracked with.

But I'm 100% on board with your view of ND's MOSTLY incompetent approach to hiring coaches.

Since Brennan's dismissal, 4 solid hires: Ara, Devine, Holtz, Kelly. Six bad ones: Kuharich, Devore, Faust, Davie, Willingham, Weis.

That's well below sea level for the program that once owned a 77% won-lost record, the best in college football.

And to be fair and historically accurate, it was Hesburgh who started this ball rolling -- in his quest for academic excellence. Fair enough. But you can't always have your cake and eat it.

Bottom line, though, given the constraints ND football faces, it's a wonder it's done as well as it has in the last 60 years. Before that, it cut through other programs like a hot knife through butter. But then, all good things come to an end.

Bye, bye, Miss American Pie.

 

[theskibro]

Not sure where you got your information on Ara but from Ara's own lips and other places I read; the hire went very quickly and Father Ted offered him the job on the the spot. ND was very familiar with Parseghian since his Northwestern team had beaten ND four times. Ara left NW because he felt unsupported by the administration and AD; he never had that problem at ND. when he informed Father Ted that he was retiring for family and health reason; Father Ted told Ara to take a leave for as long as it took. Ara felt that would be unfair and he wanted to coach in the NFL. Family tragedy changed Ara's path course. He never coached in the NFL; he never coached again.

How could you call Dan Devine 6 years anything but successful? 53-16-1 .764 with a national championship. Lou finished his time at ND with a .765 and a national championship.

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"One thing I can say is we're going to work hard. I mean real hard. … The harder you work, the less mistakes you make. The fewer mistakes you make, the better your chances of winning."

Ara

U n Golson are right on Devine. I completely forgot about him. Ara n then Devine. Good hires. Mea culpa

 

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There were several books written in the 60's and 70's about ND football. One of them was my source for the LA incident but its been so long since I read them I have no idea which one it was.

I think it might have been From Rockne to Parseghian

Thank you.