There’s obviously a lot to talk about w/ the qb situation but I think first and foremost was the playcalling. I’ve been critical of long’s first down calls but I’m here to say that he was outstanding yesterday. He kept putting his heel on wake’s throat and stepping on it throughout. So two things: wake’s defense is bad, no doubt, and our playcalling was brilliant. Those two factors played a big part in book’s success. Could Wimbush have done the same yesterday? Maybe, maybe not, but to me, the playcalling is the most important factor. Call a game like that the rest of the way, and we’re gonna be in good shape. Great job, long!
Playcalling
- Thread starter francade
- Start date
Book placed balls in great spots all day. He gave his receivers excellent opportunities to catch the ball. I am not sure BW could do that.
I hate it for BW, but just like the bowl game against LSU Book proved his accuracy was much better and he has a much better touch. BW throws too many 100 mph fastballs even when it's not needed.
Book is not the threat that BW is running for 80 yards, but he can still run the option when needed as he showed yesterday with the three TDs.
Most people don’t get this. Hitting a WR or RB in motion in the right spot so that he can continue uninterrupted is severely under rated. Book does that. Wimbush couldn’t.
Everyone's playcalling gets more praise when it works. If you go back and watch the tape, he ran plenty of similar passing concepts with Wimbush, they were simply executed poorly, and therefore fans didn't take notice...
It will be much harder this week. Receivers cannot have drops and Long will have to be ultra patient with the running game.
It will be much harder this week. Receivers cannot have drops and Long will have to be ultra patient with the running game.
That’s my problem, it’s clearly the offense long wants to run instead of running the plays that suit your players. Clearly Longs offense is built for a baker mayfield type more so than a deshaun Watson. So if long can’t adjust then it has to be book. But, they must find a way to utilize wimbushes huge arm and legs. I personally think he needs to take a lot of Avery Davis snaps. I’m drooling thinking of a two back set with book at qb and Armstrong & Wimbush in the backfield. The options are unreal. Glad we didn’t show any vs wake.
I agree. Long and Kelly chose to change to the QB better suited for Long’s offense, than to tailor the offense to Wimbush’s strengths and weaknesses. Conceptually, this makes sense to me if you have a QB that can in fact run your desired offense that gets all your playmakers much more involved. Yesterday looked great against a poor defense, so we’ll see Saturday if Book can spread the ball around with accuracy and keep the defense honest with select QB runs, etc...
I think Kelly is fully committed to the change, and Wimbush’s career as a starting QB at ND is over unless Book gets injured. We need him available and engaged the remainder of the season, and ready to play if Book gets hurt or we need Wimbush’s running more than passing in a game, etc... I can see Wimbush in the backfield for a few plays just as they tried to use Zaire after he lost the starting QB job, but I think he could compete for major carries as a running back next year if he totally bought into a position change. More likely, he’ll transfer with his degree in hand to play QB somewhere, but I hope not as I still think he is an incredible athlete with a lot to contribute as a runner.
“Everyone's playcalling gets more praise when it works. If you go back and watch the tape, he ran plenty of similar passing concepts with Wimbush, they were simply executed poorly, and therefore fans didn't take notice... “
Wrong. We threw the ball on first down way, way more than the previous three games. I agree that book is much more accurate than Wimbush, so whether Wimbush would’ve been able to do the same thing is doubtful. W/ that said, the playcalling was markedly different, no doubt.
Wrong. We threw the ball on first down way, way more than the previous three games. I agree that book is much more accurate than Wimbush, so whether Wimbush would’ve been able to do the same thing is doubtful. W/ that said, the playcalling was markedly different, no doubt.
Telx,
I was thinking the same thing about the possibility of BW switching to running back.If it turns out that
He can be a very successful RB, it may improve his chances to move up to the NFL ?
I don’t think he can ever be an NFL QB ? But he certainly can run the ball ? Who knows perhaps
Such a Position change may be to BW’s advantage ?
I was thinking the same thing about the possibility of BW switching to running back.If it turns out that
He can be a very successful RB, it may improve his chances to move up to the NFL ?
I don’t think he can ever be an NFL QB ? But he certainly can run the ball ? Who knows perhaps
Such a Position change may be to BW’s advantage ?
IMO, I think there is zero chance that Wimbush can ever be an NFL QB. If the NFL is his dream, and I don’t know that it is, then I think running back is his best option.
They threw way more on first down because Wake Forest has arguably the worst pass defense in the nation. Their head coach literally spent the entire week taking over the secondary so that he could try to help them shore up their shitty defensive back play. ND simply took advantage of their poor secondary and softened up their front by making them commit more players to coverage by exploiting huge weakness. ND will be much more balanced against Stanford, and they'll run more often on first down, not because of Ian Book, but because the opponent calls for more balance.
The game plan against Wake Forest would have been the same with Brandon Wimbush or Ian Book. As you correctly stated, the concern was whether or not Brandon could execute it, which is why it was the perfect week to make the change... Long has called a ton of passing concepts this year that Brandon has simply wasted. Far too often he just locked onto a crosser or a go route because he lacked the confidence to make the easier short or intermediate throw.
Also, in the run game, Long called the same RPOs and read option plays to Book that he did for Wimbush. They were all in the game plan and we saw them all on the field. Book simply makes much better decisions when he's presented with multiple options. Brandon always differed to running the ball because he wasn't confident in his footwork on those RPOs and in the read option game it appeared that he was guessing most of the time. He's such a damn good athlete that when he guessed right he made teams pay, and about half the time when he guessed wrong, but kept, he could still make things happen.
Let's call in Buguit. He'll tell you you are an ignoramus and Kelly was trying to set up Wimbush for failure.
“They threw way more on first down because Wake Forest has arguably the worst pass defense in the nation.”
Exactly, that’s why we threw the ball more on first down than we have all season. Not sure why you’re trying to argue that, just look at our first down calls from the first three games, especially w/ a two score lead, compared to yesterday. The play calling was different, no doubt.
Exactly, that’s why we threw the ball more on first down than we have all season. Not sure why you’re trying to argue that, just look at our first down calls from the first three games, especially w/ a two score lead, compared to yesterday. The play calling was different, no doubt.
My argument is that Long didn't magically call a better or worse game against Wake Forest than he had previously. He simply called the plays the staff agreed were the best way to attack the Wake Forest defense. That happened to be a pass first approach this week, to set up the run. I thought his play calling against Michigan was outstanding. Wimbush missed some wide open guys and at other times decided simply to flee the pocket and do it himself, rather than hit some available short throws.
The only game this year that I didn't particularly like his play calling was against Ball State. I thought ND tried to use to much movement (pulling and trapping) up front against a Bear front that was shooting gaps. Otherwise, I understand most of what he has called this year and I've enjoyed his sequencing and feel. The execution has been poor a lot of times, which is why Wimbush got yanked, but the play calling has been far superior to the points scored (prior to last week), IMO.
You keep trying to say that our playcalling didn’t change from the first three games as if we tried to throw it on 1stdown as much as we did against wake and it was Wimbush that couldn’t get it done for one reason or another. You’re wrong. We ran it on 1st and sometimes 2nd way more often than we did against wake. The playcalling was not “far superior to the points scored” in the first three games. It was way too conservative on first down in the first three games (especially w/ more than a one score lead), but was outstanding against wake. That’s not my opinion, just look at the tape.
I agree here. There's a reason we were so successful the first two drives of every game. Once we got up 10-14 points quick, the play calling went conservative. WIth that said, wimbush didn't execute the conservative playcalling very well, but that's not his strength.
Long continued to try and force wimbush to make a zillion pre and post snap reads. That's not how you make qbs like wimbush succesful. Keep the tempo up, the D on their heels, run simple conceptual plays, and get him out of the pocket.
Saw a double RPO ran by Miami for a easy long TD against oakland this weekend.
Tannehill rpo pitch to RB, RB swings out right, then throws to wide open receiver down the sideline.
I think they've moved on. The fact they brought in Jurkovic instead of BW is very telling to me. Book didn't even need to play the 4th quarter and could have played Wimbush for at least a series, but they didn't.
I could see them bringing him in and lining up as a WR then doing a trick play by throwing it back to him behind LOS and Winbush throws to someone. But they already have Avery Davis who can do that.
I'm bummed for guy, as I really wanted him to succeed. Let him use his 5th year to transfer and go to a team that will utilize his talents.
The difference is not the hard throws, it's the easy ones. What makes guys like Tom Brady and Drew Brees brilliant is that they complete 95% of the "easy" throws when guys are open. Wimbush wasn't doing that, and you could even argue that's not really his skill set. Book gives is a much better chance. His TD throw to Brock Wright is a good example of this type of throw. For Book that's a 9 out of 10 proposition, for Wimbush it's more like 7 out of 10.
They brought in phil because it may be only 1 of the 4 games where he can come in and the game is already over. Also, putting Brandon in when the game is already decided is disrespectful and a slap in the face.
there has to be a place in the offense for a guy with that type of athletic ability. if i'm Long i'm anxious to see what kind of packages i can come up with.
Avery Davis has 16 touches and a few drops, a lot of the touches coming against wake and he played early. I really think Brandon should eat into those touches.
I had some wake friends saying our RB armstrong looked like an NFL RB. They couldn't believe when I said he was a RS Frosh, converted from WR. His pad level was so much improved this game. I couldn't believe how impressive he looked in person.
I think/hope the backfield is Armstrong 1a, Dex 1b, with Tony Jones helping grind out the clock and short yardage situations, obvious throwing for pass protection, and then Wimbush taking Davis spot, and we see some dynamic plays. I'm not going to even say trick plays because they're not a trick when you put a 12-3 starting QB in the RB spot.
I'm not opposed to that. I posted in another thread about how a 2 QB system, while not popular could be beneficial, as it's meant to coax the maximum potential out of Book and Winbush. The reason I think he doesn't play, is because coaches just don't trust Wimbush anymore with throwing the football. So they just go all in on Book. I could see the argument for moving him to WR or RB, but at WR there are a lot of bodies creating quite a logjam. And at RB with Williams coming back and Armstrong and Jones coming along, I don't think the staff wants to take away any carries from those guys.
i know Denson has been bashed a lot here but it appears he's done a fabulous job with Armstrong to date.
I think Denson has been exceptional teaching the technical details and running back responsibilities. I also think he is a below average recruiter. I’ve read repeatedly that he doesn’t put the work into recruiting that is required, and I personally think his constant emphasis on Religion when communicating with recruits is a net negative.
Agree Telx -- he's done a great job coaching kids up. Even guys like McIntosh looked ready last year in mop up and Jahmir Smith looked good in that role yesterday. Jafar has picked it up quickly and Tony Jones gets better every game. Hope Denson gets Dex straight in his assignments (and in school!) But he DOES need to recruit better. I heard Josh Adams ran for sixteen yards on his first carry as an Eagle!
I think the coaches realized that Book is a more accurate passer 70 percent versus 50 percent and plays with more confidence . I fully expect that Stanford will have its hands full this Saturday
Didn't know about the religion part. I can see how that steers some recruits away. It doesn't help to preach that and be representing a Catholic university. It's baffling to me that Denson struggles in recruiting as he's an African-American from Florida who attended ND, so he knows how challenging the transition can be. Spent some time in the NFL. The offensive line recruiting has been very good the last few years. While he doesn't have a RB that has gone in the first round of the NFL draft, he can say he's produced good RBs and they've put up solid numbers. Why wouldn't a big time RB recruit want to play for him? This should be one of the easiest positions to recruit.
Book was getting the team to the line so quickly and making quick decisions that Wimbush struggled with. We’ve never played at that tempo with Wimbush.
Book can’t runnlike Wimbush, but he actually makes better reads on the option. He was making perfect reads at the goaline.
Playcalling looks so much better when there’s decisive actions taken on them, and when there’s great decision making presnapmand post snap.
Book can’t runnlike Wimbush, but he actually makes better reads on the option. He was making perfect reads at the goaline.
Playcalling looks so much better when there’s decisive actions taken on them, and when there’s great decision making presnapmand post snap.
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