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ND's Statement

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Jan 7, 2008
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Notre Dame will appeal NCAA decision

The University of Notre Dame will appeal the decision announced Tuesday (Nov. 22) by the NCAA Committee on Infractions to vacate 2012 and 2013 football victories, the University’s president, Rev. John I. Jenkins, said. The NCAA has never before vacated the records of an institution that had no involvement in the underlying academic misconduct, and the membership has since voted to change the rule that brought this case within NCAA jurisdiction.

The penalty was based on misconduct by a former student who participated in the University’s student trainer program. She wrote papers for student-athletes, which was obviously unauthorized academic assistance. The University discovered the academic misconduct in 2014, and then addressed that misconduct through its honor code process. As a result, Notre Dame retroactively lowered grades of three student athletes who received improper assistance from the former student, giving them no academic credit that was not honestly earned.

“We very much appreciate the hard work of the NCAA enforcement staff and the members of the Committee on Infractions for their review of our case, but we believe the penalty they have imposed is not justified,” Father Jenkins said.

“We are disappointed in the actions of students who engaged in dishonesty, but we are gratified that the NCAA investigation confirmed the conclusions of our own internal investigation: Notre Dame acted honorably throughout. As soon as professional staff suspected academic dishonesty on the part of a student, the matter was reported promptly, investigated aggressively and thoroughly and adjudicated in accord with our Academic Code of Honor procedures and norms. In this case, everyone involved — those in Academic Services for Student-Athletes, in our football program and in our Compliance Office — and the faculty and students resolving these cases under our Honor Code did everything that we could have asked of them.

“We disagree with the decision of the hearing panel to impose, at its own discretion, a vacation of records penalty. In past academic misconduct cases, the Committee on Infractions has imposed this penalty only when it has found serious institutional misconduct, such as actions with the direct involvement or knowledge of a coach or academic personnel, a failure to monitor or a lack of institutional control. The NCAA enforcement staff and the hearing panel agreed with Notre Dame that no such institutional misconduct occurred in this case. Indeed, the only reason the NCAA reviewed the matter was because the misconduct involved a former fellow student who happened to participate in the University’s student trainer program—an activity which involved no responsibility for the academic work of student-athletes.

“We believe that imposition of the vacation of records penalty without serious underlying institutional misconduct will not primarily punish those responsible for the misconduct, but rather will punish coaches, student-athletes and indeed the entire institution who did nothing wrong and, with regard to this case, did everything right. We are also concerned that establishing this precedent will infringe on universities’ autonomy in deterring academic dishonesty, for it will discourage the retroactive lowering of grades even when an honor code committee deems this appropriate.

“As we said at the outset of this investigation, Notre Dame would willingly accept a vacation of records penalty if it were appropriate. It is not in this case. Indeed, should this precedent stand, it could create a perverse incentive that will discourage institutions from investigating so aggressively and imposing the penalties for academic dishonesty that their honesty committees might judge appropriate.”

University academic staff members became concerned about potential academic misconduct by one student-athlete and the former student in the summer of 2014. As a result, the University promptly launched a comprehensive investigation that included the review of 95,000 documents. The University immediately suspended the involved student-athletes from all athletic activities. At the conclusion of its honor code process, the University dismissed four student-athletes and imposed retroactive grade changes in the affected courses.

Notre Dame will submit its case to the NCAA Infractions Appeals Committee.
 
From what I have read on this board from my fellow ND fans on the NCAA punitive actions on ND, most of the comments seem to be saying that the NCAA is enforcing rules against ND that it has not in the past
enforced against other schools ? Be that as it may, and whatever the Out come of ND's appeal, what concerns me more is the fact that these students got admitted in the first place ?
A lot of us always complain that Admissions it too tough on admitting student athethes, but if these students must cheat to attain passing grades, perhaps Admissions is not as tough on athletes as we complain that they are ?
It has been a very disappointing year for me and all ND fans ! it certainly is time to clean house by bringing in a new coaching staff, and then The administration should reevaluate the whole football program ? If ND
can no longer recruite enough real Student Athletes to compete on the highest level, then perhaps it is time to join a conference ?
if ,as many on this board have opined , that the NCAA is not enforcing its rules even handedly, College
sports, that we all used to know and love, no longer exist !
Very Sad !
 
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From what I have read on this board from my fellow ND fans on the NCAA punitive actions on ND, most of the comments seem to be saying that the NCAA is enforcing rules against ND that it has not in the past
enforced against other schools ? Be that as it may, and whatever the Out come of ND's appeal, what concerns me more is the fact that these students got admitted in the first place ?
A lot of us always complain that Admissions it too tough on admitting student aththes, but if these students must cheat to attain passing grades, perhaps Admissions is not as tough on athletes as we complain that they are ?
It has been a very disappointing year for me and all ND fans ! it certainly is time to clean house by bringing in a new coaching staff, and then The administration should reevaluate the whole football program ? If ND
can no longer recruite enough real Student Athletes to compete on the highest level, then perhaps it is time to join a conference ?
if ,as many on this board have opined , that the NCAA is not enforcing its rules even handedly, College
sports, that we all used to know and love, no longer exist !
Very Sad !

Or is it that the student/athletes do not want to put the required time in the academic side of things and find it easier to cheat? None of us truly know what that answer is.
 
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Notre Dame will appeal NCAA decision

The University of Notre Dame will appeal the decision announced Tuesday (Nov. 22) by the NCAA Committee on Infractions to vacate 2012 and 2013 football victories, the University’s president, Rev. John I. Jenkins, said. The NCAA has never before vacated the records of an institution that had no involvement in the underlying academic misconduct, and the membership has since voted to change the rule that brought this case within NCAA jurisdiction.

The penalty was based on misconduct by a former student who participated in the University’s student trainer program. She wrote papers for student-athletes, which was obviously unauthorized academic assistance. The University discovered the academic misconduct in 2014, and then addressed that misconduct through its honor code process. As a result, Notre Dame retroactively lowered grades of three student athletes who received improper assistance from the former student, giving them no academic credit that was not honestly earned.

“We very much appreciate the hard work of the NCAA enforcement staff and the members of the Committee on Infractions for their review of our case, but we believe the penalty they have imposed is not justified,” Father Jenkins said.

“We are disappointed in the actions of students who engaged in dishonesty, but we are gratified that the NCAA investigation confirmed the conclusions of our own internal investigation: Notre Dame acted honorably throughout. As soon as professional staff suspected academic dishonesty on the part of a student, the matter was reported promptly, investigated aggressively and thoroughly and adjudicated in accord with our Academic Code of Honor procedures and norms. In this case, everyone involved — those in Academic Services for Student-Athletes, in our football program and in our Compliance Office — and the faculty and students resolving these cases under our Honor Code did everything that we could have asked of them.

“We disagree with the decision of the hearing panel to impose, at its own discretion, a vacation of records penalty. In past academic misconduct cases, the Committee on Infractions has imposed this penalty only when it has found serious institutional misconduct, such as actions with the direct involvement or knowledge of a coach or academic personnel, a failure to monitor or a lack of institutional control. The NCAA enforcement staff and the hearing panel agreed with Notre Dame that no such institutional misconduct occurred in this case. Indeed, the only reason the NCAA reviewed the matter was because the misconduct involved a former fellow student who happened to participate in the University’s student trainer program—an activity which involved no responsibility for the academic work of student-athletes.

“We believe that imposition of the vacation of records penalty without serious underlying institutional misconduct will not primarily punish those responsible for the misconduct, but rather will punish coaches, student-athletes and indeed the entire institution who did nothing wrong and, with regard to this case, did everything right. We are also concerned that establishing this precedent will infringe on universities’ autonomy in deterring academic dishonesty, for it will discourage the retroactive lowering of grades even when an honor code committee deems this appropriate.

“As we said at the outset of this investigation, Notre Dame would willingly accept a vacation of records penalty if it were appropriate. It is not in this case. Indeed, should this precedent stand, it could create a perverse incentive that will discourage institutions from investigating so aggressively and imposing the penalties for academic dishonesty that their honesty committees might judge appropriate.”

University academic staff members became concerned about potential academic misconduct by one student-athlete and the former student in the summer of 2014. As a result, the University promptly launched a comprehensive investigation that included the review of 95,000 documents. The University immediately suspended the involved student-athletes from all athletic activities. At the conclusion of its honor code process, the University dismissed four student-athletes and imposed retroactive grade changes in the affected courses.

Notre Dame will submit its case to the NCAA Infractions Appeals Committee.

If I read the the University's statement correctly the students grades were "adjusted." It says nothing about expelling them. I would think it ought to go another step further and vacate their degree (if they received one) and have their official records so indicate. Otherwise, since they are now "long gone and hard to find" they are like coaches judged guilty/responsible. The school gets hammered and they ride off into the sunset with no repercussions.
 
The way I read it the NCAA said the players got extra academic benefits when compared to other students. Those players are ineligible. If they played under NCAA rule, the games they played in would be vacated.
 
North Carolina Basketball? So UNC basketball is stripped from 1990-2016 ish?They have admitted they ran a fake degree program with full knowledge of the university and coaching staff. A whole fake degree for basketball players who did no work, went to no classes and got a worthless degree.
 
This is a joke and seriously if we're going to cheat how about winning. I mean seriously make it worth while.

I do find it funny how many on here act very holier than though of ND as if everything is just sssooooooooo beneath the dome.


Here we are with this making big news yet our beloved football team continues with going through the motions on Saturday's making a mockery of the tradition and the legacy sales pitch etc.

I feel worst for the kids who committed here having been duped by a coach that utterly has no sense of feel and no idea what he's doing in so many facets of the game. nearly all of them as a matter of fact.
 
release the players from their scholarships, suspend the football program indefinately. In truth the administration has been on this road since 1993. Just bit the bullet and stick a fork in this turkey!
 
From what I have read on this board from my fellow ND fans on the NCAA punitive actions on ND, most of the comments seem to be saying that the NCAA is enforcing rules against ND that it has not in the past
enforced against other schools ? Be that as it may, and whatever the Out come of ND's appeal, what concerns me more is the fact that these students got admitted in the first place ?
A lot of us always complain that Admissions it too tough on admitting student athethes, but if these students must cheat to attain passing grades, perhaps Admissions is not as tough on athletes as we complain that they are ?
It has been a very disappointing year for me and all ND fans ! it certainly is time to clean house by bringing in a new coaching staff, and then The administration should reevaluate the whole football program ? If ND
can no longer recruite enough real Student Athletes to compete on the highest level, then perhaps it is time to join a conference ?
if ,as many on this board have opined , that the NCAA is not enforcing its rules even handedly, College
sports, that we all used to know and love, no longer exist !
Very Sad !

You have expressed an underlying assumption, to make your comments, that to me is wrong. I really don't believe the students aren't intelligent enough or that admissions standards automatically can stop this from happening. This is a character issue and more probably a circumstance of laziness. It happens everywhere. It is a culture within the program that should be of discussion and those that administer it. - And please, enough with the conference crap. Not happening here, now or ever. So get over it.
 
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Notre Dame will appeal NCAA decision

The University of Notre Dame will appeal the decision announced Tuesday (Nov. 22) by the NCAA Committee on Infractions to vacate 2012 and 2013 football victories, the University’s president, Rev. John I. Jenkins, said. The NCAA has never before vacated the records of an institution that had no involvement in the underlying academic misconduct, and the membership has since voted to change the rule that brought this case within NCAA jurisdiction.

The penalty was based on misconduct by a former student who participated in the University’s student trainer program. She wrote papers for student-athletes, which was obviously unauthorized academic assistance. The University discovered the academic misconduct in 2014, and then addressed that misconduct through its honor code process. As a result, Notre Dame retroactively lowered grades of three student athletes who received improper assistance from the former student, giving them no academic credit that was not honestly earned.

“We very much appreciate the hard work of the NCAA enforcement staff and the members of the Committee on Infractions for their review of our case, but we believe the penalty they have imposed is not justified,” Father Jenkins said.

“We are disappointed in the actions of students who engaged in dishonesty, but we are gratified that the NCAA investigation confirmed the conclusions of our own internal investigation: Notre Dame acted honorably throughout. As soon as professional staff suspected academic dishonesty on the part of a student, the matter was reported promptly, investigated aggressively and thoroughly and adjudicated in accord with our Academic Code of Honor procedures and norms. In this case, everyone involved — those in Academic Services for Student-Athletes, in our football program and in our Compliance Office — and the faculty and students resolving these cases under our Honor Code did everything that we could have asked of them.

“We disagree with the decision of the hearing panel to impose, at its own discretion, a vacation of records penalty. In past academic misconduct cases, the Committee on Infractions has imposed this penalty only when it has found serious institutional misconduct, such as actions with the direct involvement or knowledge of a coach or academic personnel, a failure to monitor or a lack of institutional control. The NCAA enforcement staff and the hearing panel agreed with Notre Dame that no such institutional misconduct occurred in this case. Indeed, the only reason the NCAA reviewed the matter was because the misconduct involved a former fellow student who happened to participate in the University’s student trainer program—an activity which involved no responsibility for the academic work of student-athletes.

“We believe that imposition of the vacation of records penalty without serious underlying institutional misconduct will not primarily punish those responsible for the misconduct, but rather will punish coaches, student-athletes and indeed the entire institution who did nothing wrong and, with regard to this case, did everything right. We are also concerned that establishing this precedent will infringe on universities’ autonomy in deterring academic dishonesty, for it will discourage the retroactive lowering of grades even when an honor code committee deems this appropriate.

“As we said at the outset of this investigation, Notre Dame would willingly accept a vacation of records penalty if it were appropriate. It is not in this case. Indeed, should this precedent stand, it could create a perverse incentive that will discourage institutions from investigating so aggressively and imposing the penalties for academic dishonesty that their honesty committees might judge appropriate.”

University academic staff members became concerned about potential academic misconduct by one student-athlete and the former student in the summer of 2014. As a result, the University promptly launched a comprehensive investigation that included the review of 95,000 documents. The University immediately suspended the involved student-athletes from all athletic activities. At the conclusion of its honor code process, the University dismissed four student-athletes and imposed retroactive grade changes in the affected courses.

Notre Dame will submit its case to the NCAA Infractions Appeals Committee.

"Indeed, the only reason the NCAA reviewed the matter was because the misconduct involved a former fellow student who happened to participate in the University’s student trainer program—an activity which involved no responsibility for the academic work of student-athletes."

So -- if ND would have said nothing and handled the matter internally, the NCAA would have no insight as to what happened?
 
From what I have read on this board from my fellow ND fans on the NCAA punitive actions on ND, most of the comments seem to be saying that the NCAA is enforcing rules against ND that it has not in the past
enforced against other schools ? Be that as it may, and whatever the Out come of ND's appeal, what concerns me more is the fact that these students got admitted in the first place ?
A lot of us always complain that Admissions it too tough on admitting student athethes, but if these students must cheat to attain passing grades, perhaps Admissions is not as tough on athletes as we complain that they are ?
It has been a very disappointing year for me and all ND fans ! it certainly is time to clean house by bringing in a new coaching staff, and then The administration should reevaluate the whole football program ? If ND
can no longer recruite enough real Student Athletes to compete on the highest level, then perhaps it is time to join a conference ?
if ,as many on this board have opined , that the NCAA is not enforcing its rules even handedly, College
sports, that we all used to know and love, no longer exist !
Very Sad !
There's kids who get admitted with 1600 SATs and 4.5 GPAs that will cheat on occasion.
 
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"Indeed, the only reason the NCAA reviewed the matter was because the misconduct involved a former fellow student who happened to participate in the University’s student trainer program—an activity which involved no responsibility for the academic work of student-athletes."

So -- if ND would have said nothing and handled the matter internally, the NCAA would have no insight as to what happened?
The key to the whole thing is that the girl graduated in the midst of this episode going on, and that's what the NCAA is hanging their hat on. While she was a student, when it started, they had nothing. It's all kind of stupid, and we were overly cautious in reporting it in the first place.
 
"Indeed, the only reason the NCAA reviewed the matter was because the misconduct involved a former fellow student who happened to participate in the University’s student trainer program—an activity which involved no responsibility for the academic work of student-athletes."

From NDN:

"To sum up, there were two issues

1) We used ineligible players, who when it as found out they cheated, and ND changed their grades to failing (ie they didn't get credit), they lost academic eligibility. We certified them as eligible and they competed. This is problem #1, we used ineligible players

2) We had someone who was employed by the Athletic Department, who received NCAA compliance training and signed documents to that effect, who provided impermissible extra academic benefits.

The vacation of wins is tied to #2, not #1. That is important to understand. This wasn't just cheating and using ineligible players, it was that on top of an Athletic Department employee, who knew what she was doing was an NCAA violation, providing extra benefits. "
 
From NDN:

"To sum up, there were two issues

1) We used ineligible players, who when it as found out they cheated, and ND changed their grades to failing (ie they didn't get credit), they lost academic eligibility. We certified them as eligible and they competed. This is problem #1, we used ineligible players

2) We had someone who was employed by the Athletic Department, who received NCAA compliance training and signed documents to that effect, who provided impermissible extra academic benefits.

The vacation of wins is tied to #2, not #1. That is important to understand. This wasn't just cheating and using ineligible players, it was that on top of an Athletic Department employee, who knew what she was doing was an NCAA violation, providing extra benefits. "


You know, if we wanted to read what was posted on that board, we would be over there doing so. The folks over there have no particular enlightenment that the people here do not have.
 
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You have expressed an underlying assumption, to make your comments, that to me is wrong. I really don't believe the students aren't intelligent enough or that admissions standards automatically can stop this from happening. This is a character issue and more probably a circumstance of laziness. It happens everywhere. It is a culture within the program that should be of discussion and those that administer it. - And please, enough with the conference crap. Not happening here, now or ever. So get over it.

Howard,
Here is my problem with this whole situation. None of us has any inside information about just
what the admission process was for the athletes in question, so you are correct that I have made an assumption, and you disagree with it.
You are correct that admissions standards can not automatically stop such incidents from happening, and Cheating is definately a character issue. Just what the academic qualifications of these
students may or may no have not been, we can only assume because only admissions determined that.
As far as joining a conference, I always liked the fact that ND was Independent, but again
as many ND fans have been complaining that ND could no longer recruit top athletles because Admission
Standards were too high ? In the past, I have always argued againt that point of view, and the point that I
was making was: If we can no longer compete because Admission Standards does not allow us to to
bring in enough top athletes just what are our options:
1. Lower Admission Standards for a certain number of Athletes every year ? No I do not like that !
2. Bring in JUCOs ? maybe ? but only if they qualify academically ?
3. Just keep trying to compete against teams that have become " Football factories " and admit and cater in every way, to the the best athletes available.?
4. Join a Conference of Schools that have the same high academic standards as Notre Dame has ?
In short, I was trying to lay out and discuss all sides of the too High Admission argument.
My own preference is and opinion are keep High Admission Standards, and bring in a new coaching staff,
and stay independent ! ?
 
From what I have read on this board from my fellow ND fans on the NCAA punitive actions on ND, most of the comments seem to be saying that the NCAA is enforcing rules against ND that it has not in the past
enforced against other schools ? Be that as it may, and whatever the Out come of ND's appeal, what concerns me more is the fact that these students got admitted in the first place ?
A lot of us always complain that Admissions it too tough on admitting student athethes, but if these students must cheat to attain passing grades, perhaps Admissions is not as tough on athletes as we complain that they are ?
It has been a very disappointing year for me and all ND fans ! it certainly is time to clean house by bringing in a new coaching staff, and then The administration should reevaluate the whole football program ? If ND
can no longer recruite enough real Student Athletes to compete on the highest level, then perhaps it is time to join a conference ?
if ,as many on this board have opined , that the NCAA is not enforcing its rules even handedly, College
sports, that we all used to know and love, no longer exist !
Very Sad !
Trust me, college sports as we all used to know and love, definitely doesn't exist anymore. The more money involved, the more corrupt it has, and will continue, to become. Sad, but obvious. Some say have the CFP is so that things can be "settled on the field" I call bullshit on that, the CFP is about money and nothing else.
 
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Howard,
Here is my problem with this whole situation. None of us has any inside information about just
what the admission process was for the athletes in question, so you are correct that I have made an assumption, and you disagree with it.
You are correct that admissions standards can not automatically stop such incidents from happening, and Cheating is definately a character issue. Just what the academic qualifications of these
students may or may no have not been, we can only assume because only admissions determined that.
As far as joining a conference, I always liked the fact that ND was Independent, but again
as many ND fans have been complaining that ND could no longer recruit top athletles because Admission
Standards were too high ? In the past, I have always argued againt that point of view, and the point that I
was making was: If we can no longer compete because Admission Standards does not allow us to to
bring in enough top athletes just what are our options:
1. Lower Admission Standards for a certain number of Athletes every year ? No I do not like that !
2. Bring in JUCOs ? maybe ? but only if they qualify academically ?
3. Just keep trying to compete against teams that have become " Football factories " and admit and cater in every way, to the the best athletes available.?
4. Join a Conference of Schools that have the same high academic standards as Notre Dame has ?
In short, I was trying to lay out and discuss all sides of the too High Admission argument.
My own preference is and opinion are keep High Admission Standards, and bring in a new coaching staff,
and stay independent ! ?

Understand your comments, the one point I would add to (and by the way, yes admission standards are now evaluated differently for some special case athletes) is I do not believe ND needs to lower its current entrance GPA policy and test score evaluations, but I strongly believe that the core entrance curriculum necessary for admittance needs some mercy and a special program for a limited number of student athletes each year - e.g. 4 years of math, 4 years of science etc. in HS. They can be made up with additional hours applied to the courses while at ND and the length of time to graduate would therefore be 1 to 1 1/2 years longer. Just my thought, but it may open a pathway to a considerable universe of possible recruits. An athletic carve out if you will.
 
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Trust me, college sports as we all used to know and love, definitely doesn't exist anymore. The more money involved, the more corrupt it has, and will continue, to become. Sad, but obvious. Some say have the CFP is so that things can be "settled on the field" I call bullshit on that, the CFP is about money and nothing else.

I am not sure when it did exist. Even back in the 1930's, a school selling 80-90 thousand tickets was a huge windfall back in the day. Teams brought in semi-pro "students", etc. Programs have been fudging the intentions of the rules for close to a century IMO.
 
Trust me, college sports as we all used to know and love, definitely doesn't exist anymore. The more money involved, the more corrupt it has, and will continue, to become. Sad, but obvious. Some say have the CFP is so that things can be "settled on the field" I call bullshit on that, the CFP is about money and nothing else.

DieHard,
That is also how I feel ! The older I get, the less interest that I have in orgaized sports.
I used to love professional baseball before free agency and expansion. Going way back to te 1940's and 1950's Mel Ott, was always Giant, Ted Williams was always with the Red Six, DiMaggio was always
with the Yankees, Stan the Man, etc.
You knew the players and the teams ! Today Players go where ever the big money is !
ticket prices are so hight it costs a small fortune to take a family to a game.
The one sport that I still love is college football, especially ND, but Over the last few years my love for college football is also waning ! Every thing today is just getting too much about the money !
 
People don't understand how hard it is to make grades at ND. Okay, it was a long long time ago, but when I was there in the 70s I studied 4-5 hours every night (straight from my job slopping trays in the dining hall to the library.) (With Friday and Saturday's off... unless we lost on a Saturday then I went straight to the library.) Sunday was an 8 hour study day. How can we expect football players who practice/meetings/weight training 4+ hours a day to do the same and make grades? Admittedly most do it and my hat is off to them. Not sure what the solution is... how does Stanford and Duke and Northwestern avoid these kinds of problems? Do they offer easier majors like basket weaving? In the end it feels excessive that a school that graduates 90% of its football players is the one the NCAA goes after... Not sure I have a solution.... just venting.
 
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People don't understand how hard it is to make grades at ND. Okay, it was a long long time ago, but when I was there in the 70s I studied 4-5 hours every night (straight from my job slopping trays in the dining hall to the library.) (With Friday and Saturday's off... unless we lost on a Saturday then I went straight to the library.) Sunday was an 8 hour study day. How can we expect football players who practice/meetings/weight training 4+ hours a day to do the same and make grades? Admittedly most do it and my hat is off to them. Not sure what the solution is... how does Stanford and Duke and Northwestern avoid these kinds of problems? Do they offer easier majors like basket weaving? In the end it feels excessive that a school that graduates 90% of its football players is the one the NCAA goes after... Not sure I have a solution.... just venting.

rudy300.jpg
 
Gotta watch that one again. I was at that game, Soph year -- I remember thinking "who are they carrying off the field?"
 
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