Legitimate Question For Perse and Friends

[IrishInOntario]

Of the current top 25 scoring defenses (only stat that really matters) in college football here are some names for you...

Houston
Wisconsin
Kansas State
Washington
Maryland
Lousiana State
Army
Boston College
Air Force
Boise State
Utah
Georgia Tech
Iowa
Western Michigan
South Carolina

Those teams make up 15 of the top 25 scoring defenses nationally... find me one team in that group who has recruited better defensively than Notre Dame? Go through your star rankings and find me a team with "better" players.

It's not just about talent. Landing elite players helps, but the vast majority of success at the college level is a combination of fundamental development, energy, toughness and coaches who piy players in position to execute and demand that they do so.

The reason why ND doesn't have a similar defense to those listed above is not because those teams havr more talent... ND will send more players to the NFL than a lot of those teams. The problem was that VanGorder was running an outdated NFL scheme, that had no business in college football. A scheme that relies on having top notch players at every position (like in the NFL) which is a ridiculous concept for all but very few teams nationally... definetely not sustainable at a school like ND, that can't pull Alabama / Ohio State talent in every year.

ND needs a learnable scheme, a demanding defensive coordinator who is obssessed with fundamentals and their development rather than installation, and they most of all they need somone who demands accountability and toughness... When a guy is playing like shit, he needs to get yanked in favour of somebody else. But before that can happen, ND must install a defense that the entire unit understands. You can't pull a guy if he's the only player in the program at his position that understands the scheme.

I'm tired of hearing the word "smart" as the first way of describing ND's "best" defensive players... In ND's case, that is simply a cover for "the only guy who gets it".

Stop with the "there is no talent" crap. The talent has simply been neglected and there has been a disconnect in their development, in favour of scheme installation... If ND's group of across 4 stars were coached like they are at many of the teams I listed, they'd have similar results.

Perse, this one is for you... If ND has no defensive talent, explain how they have more starpower (across the board) and better offer lists than the defensive players on every team I listed?

Is it that there is less talent, or that those teams have recruited complete classes of lower ranked kids, developed them well, put them into a position to succeed, developed a culture of toughness and called a quality defense on gameday?

 

[DieHard_Irish]

THIS!!!! thank you

 

[tkirish]

I disagree to a point. The Irish defensive line is not that good. I could care less about what type of defense they play or scheme they play. They get man handled every week. When you don't get a push up front then the rest of the defense suffers. They can't rush the passer either. Stars mean zero. If they did mean something Then the only NFL players out there would be 4 and 5 star players. That's not the case. No one knows how players will pan out. I'll tell you the biggest issue. It's the culture. ND wants a certain type of football player. A gentleman so to speak. Well guess what? Gentleman don't win championships. You need lots of players with chips on their shoulders. The last time they had that was when Holtz was having his teams kick but. He had players with a mean streak. There are no Stonebreakers, Zorich's, Stam's or Smagalla's anywhere on this defense. They have a bunch of nice student athletes. That's fine. But if you want to really win, you better get nasty players.. they don't get them and they don't want them. That is a fact. So the talent is good but don't tell us they are great.

 

[perseverare]

Perse, this one is for you... If ND has no defensive talent, explain how they have more starpower (across the board) and better offer lists than the defensive players on every team I listed?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. offer lists are not a barometer I value. It is impossible to know which are gratuitous offers from bonafide offers for commitment.
2. schedules and opponents have too much influence on stats
3. Yesterday, I mentioned that once you get past the top players at each position 1-~5), that is where the parity comes into play and yes, development and coaching can be the great equalizers in that group.
4.when we discuss talent, I do so with the eye on the prize: contention at the Top 10 level.
5. The field: between the end zones: the great explanator! What do you see in terms of results? After 2+ years in any program why in hell are you discussing offer lists? Look at the actual performance and productivity. Verbosity will not alter actual results. Believe your eyes. ND needs a talent infusion on defense.
I cannot believe you make a contrary case! You beginning to sound like Baghdad Bob!
6. I count 6 teams on that list that would beat ND going away.

BTW: I was a big fan of J Jones as a recruit! must get! He has not been the player I thought he would be. But when you are enrolled they don't take away your stars! I over rated him! There are others. So no shame in guessing wrong on kids! Unless you are Head Coach!

(LSU has far better talent and will get there D squared away and return to prominance before ND; but they play in a tough league where the stats are stats facing elite teams, not League patsies).

 

[perseverare]

not to be insulting but for those that were not borne yet: and I get a kick out of this guy! In football life he would have been Bodi!

 

[NIN Irish]

Perse, this one is for you... If ND has no defensive talent, explain how they have more starpower (across the board) and better offer lists than the defensive players on every team I listed?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Purse doesn't know what he's talking about. It doesn't matter how many posts he has.

 

[perseverare]

yea; cept I am able to get it right way ahead of the curve! consistantly - that is what pisses posters here off! and you, you will never piss anyone off: dumb like a rock.

 

[zonairish]

I disagree to a point. The Irish defensive line is not that good. I could care less about what type of defense they play or scheme they play. They get man handled every week. When you don't get a push up front then the rest of the defense suffers. They can't rush the passer either. Stars mean zero. If they did mean something Then the only NFL players out there would be 4 and 5 star players. That's not the case. No one knows how players will pan out. I'll tell you the biggest issue. It's the culture. ND wants a certain type of football player. A gentleman so to speak. Well guess what? Gentleman don't win championships. You need lots of players with chips on their shoulders. The last time they had that was when Holtz was having his teams kick but. He had players with a mean streak. There are no Stonebreakers, Zorich's, Stam's or Smagalla's anywhere on this defense. They have a bunch of nice student athletes. That's fine. But if you want to really win, you better get nasty players.. they don't get them and they don't want them. That is a fact. So the talent is good but don't tell us they are great.

The D-Line is not playing fundamentally sound. Unfortunately they all play like D-tackles. And even at that they do not play well. They are talented. I will say they have not recruited Safety and D-End very well but they should be a D that is at least above average. Not what is seen here

 

[NIN Irish]

yea; cept I am able to get it right way ahead of the curve! consistantly - that is what pisses posters here off! and you, you will never piss anyone off: dumb like a rock.

Like I said you don't know what your talking about.

Seriously, what are you right about ahead of the curve consistently?

You shouldn't call anyone dumb until you spell better and become more coherent.

Also, I don't attempt to piss anyone off (wifey may disagree) like you apparently do. Why would anyone get pissed off reading this board. You're just annoying usually.

 

[88ND]

Of the current top 25 scoring defenses (only stat that really matters) in college football here are some names for you...

Houston
Wisconsin
Kansas State
Washington
Maryland
Lousiana State
Army
Boston College
Air Force
Boise State
Utah
Georgia Tech
Iowa
Western Michigan
South Carolina

Those teams make up 15 of the top 25 scoring defenses nationally... find me one team in that group who has recruited better defensively than Notre Dame? Go through your star rankings and find me a team with "better" players.

It's not just about talent. Landing elite players helps, but the vast majority of success at the college level is a combination of fundamental development, energy, toughness and coaches who piy players in position to execute and demand that they do so.

The reason why ND doesn't have a similar defense to those listed above is not because those teams havr more talent... ND will send more players to the NFL than a lot of those teams. The problem was that VanGorder was running an outdated NFL scheme, that had no business in college football. A scheme that relies on having top notch players at every position (like in the NFL) which is a ridiculous concept for all but very few teams nationally... definetely not sustainable at a school like ND, that can't pull Alabama / Ohio State talent in every year.

ND needs a learnable scheme, a demanding defensive coordinator who is obssessed with fundamentals and their development rather than installation, and they most of all they need somone who demands accountability and toughness... When a guy is playing like shit, he needs to get yanked in favour of somebody else. But before that can happen, ND must install a defense that the entire unit understands. You can't pull a guy if he's the only player in the program at his position that understands the scheme.

I'm tired of hearing the word "smart" as the first way of describing ND's "best" defensive players... In ND's case, that is simply a cover for "the only guy who gets it".

Stop with the "there is no talent" crap. The talent has simply been neglected and there has been a disconnect in their development, in favour of scheme installation... If ND's group of across 4 stars were coached like they are at many of the teams I listed, they'd have similar results.

Perse, this one is for you... If ND has no defensive talent, explain how they have more starpower (across the board) and better offer lists than the defensive players on every team I listed?

Is it that there is less talent, or that those teams have recruited complete classes of lower ranked kids, developed them well, put them into a position to succeed, developed a culture of toughness and called a quality defense on gameday?

Yawning.....

I've said for two years our defense sucks because of one person. BVG.

We may not be top 5....but we are NOT a 100 ranked defense. Utterly ridiculous.

What's even more ridiculous is the money that son of a bitch got to regress kids.

He single handidly has cost these kids large amounts of money. Significant amounts of money in draft stock.

What's even worse is Brian Kelly's ignorance to all of it. That is most disturbing and one that tells me BK is a great offensive coordinator and NOTHING ELSE❕

 

[mbd11]

Hopefully, now that BVG is gone, they'll start playing better as a unit. The Syracuse game was a step in the right direction. And Hudson seems like a players' coach and good motivator, which is good.

 

[Telx1]

Have Perse on ignore, so don't know if or what he responded. Seems like we have these back and forth annual arguments akin to the nature versus nurture societal debates. Clearly it takes both talent and good coaching. In my opinion, we've had sufficient talent to field a top 35 defense, but we've underachieved because BVG is a TERRIBLE college football coach. We probably have better defensive talent than 75% of the teams with better defenses than ours, but we don't currently have the right combination of talent to be a top ten defense, even with great coaching. Hayes and Kareem and Okwara represent a huge shift towards getting complimentary talent at the two end positions, and I hope these three get meaningful minutes this year in prep for next year. Combine this with the experience our young DBs are getting and add a talented defensive coordinator, and we will see a huge turnaround. Just hate being part of the next year crowd!

 

[perseverare]

Hopefully, now that BVG is gone, they'll start playing better as a unit. The Syracuse game was a step in the right direction. And Hudson seems like a players' coach and good motivator, which is good.

really like Hudson's excitement, reading bout the guy, players have always liked the guy.
The million dollar question is, can he coach?

 

[Bodizephax]

not to be insulting but for those that were not borne yet: and I get a kick out of this guy! In football life he would have been Bodi!

View embedded media

Purse gets a kick out of a Iraqi war propagandist. Why am I not surprised. Who is right or wrong on a college football message board is not a big deal to me. It doesn't compare to war.

 

[Java65]

Stop with the "there is no talent" crap. The talent has simply been neglected and there has been a disconnect in their development, in favour of scheme installation... If ND's group of across 4 stars were coached like they are at many of the teams I listed, they'd have similar results.

Amen! I mentioned this earlier that during press conferences during spring and fall camp BVG and Kelly talked a lot about working on installation. Translation, we aren't working much on technique and player development we are going to out scheme the other team.

BVG was the Charlie Weis of ND defense.

 

[IrishHerb]

Amen! I mentioned this earlier that during press conferences during spring and fall camp BVG and Kelly talked a lot about working on installation. Translation, we aren't working much on technique and player development we are going to out scheme the other team.

BVG was the Charlie Weis of ND defense.

Thats often what you get when raiding the NFL. There are exceptions, but ...

 

[Java65]

Perse, this one is for you... If ND has no defensive talent, explain how they have more starpower (across the board) and better offer lists than the defensive players on every team I listed?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. offer lists are not a barometer I value. It is impossible to know which are gratuitous offers from bonafide offers for commitment.
2. schedules and opponents have too much influence on stats
3. Yesterday, I mentioned that once you get past the top players at each position 1-~5), that is where the parity comes into play and yes, development and coaching can be the great equalizers in that group.
4.when we discuss talent, I do so with the eye on the prize: contention at the Top 10 level.
5. The field: between the end zones: the great explanator! What do you see in terms of results? After 2+ years in any program why in hell are you discussing offer lists? Look at the actual performance and productivity. Verbosity will not alter actual results. Believe your eyes. ND needs a talent infusion on defense.
I cannot believe you make a contrary case! You beginning to sound like Baghdad Bob!
6. I count 6 teams on that list that would beat ND going away.

BTW: I was a big fan of J Jones as a recruit! must get! He has not been the player I thought he would be. But when you are enrolled they don't take away your stars! I over rated him! There are others. So no shame in guessing wrong on kids! Unless you are Head Coach!

(LSU has far better talent and will get there D squared away and return to prominance before ND; but they play in a tough league where the stats are stats facing elite teams, not League patsies).

Perse I usually agree with you but you are completely wrong on this subject. While ND doesn't have Bama talent on defense they certainly have better talent than what they have displayed under BVG.

No matter what objective measuring stick you want to use; player rating, stars, offers, ND has good talent on defense. The fact is that BVG spent a lot of time on instillation and since you have only so many hours a week coaches can spend with players by simple math they spent less time on player development.

Many of the problems on defense are related to; 1) not understanding their responsibilities and 2) poor player technique. Coverage, pass rush, tackling, proper angles.. this is all player development / technique that needs to be worked on.

Sorry, but you are wrong on this one.

 

[Java65]

Thats often what you get when raiding the NFL. There are exceptions, but ...

Completely agree. NFL and college are very different games.

 

[perseverare]

but, java, I did not say that ND did not have enough talent to perform better.
Performing at a level that is at the Top 10 level is my barometer. (see#4)

Is performing 50 places higher in national stats better? yes. But that puts you in the 35-40 rankings! Better yes but that most likely is not going to get you seriously into the playoff picture.

It comes down to goals. If you keep lowering the bar, eventually you can achieve your goals.

 

[Java65]

but, java, I did not say that ND did not have enough talent to perform better.
Performing at a level that is at the Top 10 level is my barometer. (see#4)

Is performing 50 places higher in national stats better? yes. But that puts you in the 35-40 rankings! Better yes but that most likely is not going to get you seriously into the playoff picture.

It comes down to goals. If you keep lowering the bar, eventually you can achieve your goals.

The administration keeps lowering the bar. I'm afraid you will continue to be disappointed if you think ND is ever going to be challenging most years for a playoff spot. Even Shaw can't do that at Stanford.

I have no doubts in my mind that even Saban, Meyers or Harbaugh wouldn't be able to do that at ND.

I could set my personal goal to run a marathon at 2 1/2 hours but the fact remains I will never be able to do that. Facts are the facts.

 

[Howard Hall 74]

The defensive line is very mediocre. Do not believe you people can't see this. They continually get pushed around. It was very evident at the Nevada game. Simply put, perse is right once you get by the top 5-7 at their position the talent level really evens out. Then its coaching and a training program that takes over. And I don't care who the recruit says offered them, you don't know if the offer was conditional, or a school just invited him to visit, or it's real. Exaggeration is common among HS "star" football players. The talent on defense is very average. It is what it is - get over it.