Kelly comparison

[DillonDomer]

Before the Chicago Bulls had their big run the coach was Doug Collins. They had improved and had a decent record but he wasn't the guy to take them to the next level. That is when they brought in Phil Jackson who never had a head coach spot in the NBA.

Kelly has improved the team from when he came in but isn't the guy to take them to the next level. He isn't willing to reinvent himself which is what you need to do as a top level coach.

 

[perseverare]

there are no free agent signings in college
the only influx of talent is recruiting
Kelly recruits well, but not at the level that is balanced and not at the elite level
The current recruiting class is similar to prior groups.
Kelly does not have Meyers' charisma to bring recruits by sheer personal presence.
Will Kelly change in year 8? Not likely but not impossible.
Will ND's fortunes change under Kelly? Not likely.

 

[pennirish]

7 years. Change? I believe he is trying to change, but does he know how to adapt. I have not seen any reason to believe that he does. Heck I'm slow too, it took 7 years for me to see the light. I will admit, I grew tired of some of the posts here, I thought the criticism was not justified. I've come to realize this year that the plateau has been reached. 2012 was the best that we will see under this coach. He's done some good for the program, but a higher level, new enthusiasm is needed, a new hunger to prove to the college football world that ND is elite. Yes, I believe ND can complete for titles, coaching is everything. Finding that coach is the challenge. Jack?

 

[Nocalirish]

After 7 years not going to a bowl game is unacceptable and grounds for replacement.

 

[Telx1]

After 7 years not going to a bowl game is unacceptable and grounds for replacement.

Under Kelly, ND played in the Champs Bowl, Music Bowl, Fiesta Bowl, Pinstripe Bowl, Championship Series Bowl, Sun Bowl. Hard not to play in a bowl game with all that have popped up over the years, and most are meaningless, except for final ranking and extra prep for the next season. Absent four more wins, this will be the first year under Kelly where the team isn't even Bowl eligible.

 

[IrishHerb]

there are no free agent signings in college
the only influx of talent is recruiting
Kelly recruits well, but not at the level that is balanced and not at the elite level
The current recruiting class is similar to prior groups.
Kelly does not have Meyers' charisma to bring recruits by sheer personal presence.
Will Kelly change in year 8? Not likely but not impossible.
Will ND's fortunes change under Kelly? Not likely.

While admittedly Kelly has had highly rated recruiting classes, he tends to bring in too many WRs and QBs and shortchanges the defense side of the draw.

As for the style of play ... it appears nothing much has changed from year 1 to year 7. Same old anemic short yardage package, same old over dependance on the pass, same old poor game time decision making, same old porous defense ...

 

[perseverare]

While admittedly Kelly has had highly rated recruiting classes, he tends to bring in too many WRs and QBs and shortchanges the defense side of the draw.

As for the style of play ... it appears nothing much has changed from year 1 to year 7. Same old anemic short yardage package, same old over dependance on the pass, same old poor game time decision making, same old porous defense ...

well with the taller DK as QB the offense does utilize more of the field in the passing game. The other QB's do not have the vision of the field DK has. But otherwise, yr1=yr7

 

[Java65]

there are no free agent signings in college
the only influx of talent is recruiting
Kelly recruits well, but not at the level that is balanced and not at the elite level
The current recruiting class is similar to prior groups.
Kelly does not have Meyers' charisma to bring recruits by sheer personal presence.
Will Kelly change in year 8? Not likely but not impossible.
Will ND's fortunes change under Kelly? Not likely.

I do agree his recruiting lacks balance but I think Kelly recruits at an elite level at some positions. For example I think at QB and OL we have recruited as well or better than any team in the country. I think for the most part our WR recruiting has been great. We have recruited well at LB. Where we really have fallen incredibly short is on the DL and S.

 

[SALittleGiant513]

there are no free agent signings in college
the only influx of talent is recruiting
Kelly recruits well, but not at the level that is balanced and not at the elite level
The current recruiting class is similar to prior groups.
Kelly does not have Meyers' charisma to bring recruits by sheer personal presence.
Will Kelly change in year 8? Not likely but not impossible.
Will ND's fortunes change under Kelly? Not likely.

Good Try... really great effort... thanks for posting a summary of your criticisms of BK in a post about BK but actually addressing the initial post... awesome

 

[BGI-CANADA]

I assume this season - for Kelly at ND - is an anomaly (as was 2012).

Assuming Kelly continues to consistently win 8 - 9 games per season - I would compare Kelly at the college football level to frank Beamer, the now retired VT coach.

Beamer - especially after his 6th season at VT always had respectable W-L records and some VERY
good seasons - but never won the NT Championship

 

[IrishHerb]

I assume this season - for Kelly at ND - is an anomaly (as was 2012).

Assuming Kelly continues to consistently win 8 - 9 games per season - I would compare Kelly at the college football level to frank Beamer, the now retired VT coach.

Beamer - especially after his 6th season at VT always had respectable W-L records and some VERY
good seasons - but never won the NT Championship

Pretty good comparison.

Beamer and Kelly are opposites though. Beamer relied on good defenses and his offense usually sucked. Kelly on the other hand relies on offense and his defenses normally are swiss cheese.

 

[Telx1]

Ara, that is exactly the metric I laid out previously for assessing Kelly's performance going forward. Use this year to develop young talent and show improvement every week, and deliver a ten win season next year. I jumped to the fire Kelly side after the NCS game because I felt he made inexcusable decisions in the game plan and in game decisions, and I felt the team for the most part was clearly not playing with emotion or enthusiasm; which made me think Kelly had lost the team for these boneheaded decisions. You mentioned the 4th and 12 call in an earlier post where you had joined the fire Kelly chorus, and nothing wrong with changing your mind after the emotions and disappointment calm down with time. I'm not there yet. He and his staff failed the players by not putting them in position to win the NCS and Texas games; and then pointed fingers at players instead of at himself and his coaches, and that is inexcusable in my mind. I was pleasantly surprised that he acknowledged as much to the players earlier this week; and that's a good step in the right direction. Yes there is a lynch mentality being expressed by some here, but others like myself are rightly concerned about how this team is underperforming; Kelly's loyalty to BVG overriding the best interest of the team; the aforementioned boneheaded game plans and in game decisions; and the apparent lack of player emotions and enthusiasm. Kelly owns all of this as the HC, and hope he turns things around sufficiently to give myself and others pause as to whether he has earned the right to deliver a great team next year.

 

[Nocalirish]

If Kelly cant get this team to a bowl game this year he deserves to be fired.

 

[Harpo Marxist]

What I see is a lynch mob mentality. I've never been a follower and by hell am I going to start at 62. I'm certainly not going to start by following the only two I've got ignored at this point. I've stood alone before and I'll stand alone now because I'm right. You don't fire a coach with six successful seasons because of one failed season. He gets next season to straighten out the mess then warned and replaced after the 2018 season without an 10-3 or better. That's the right way to replace a coach with his type of record and not be crucified by the media. Perception is important folks in 2016. Some in the media are crucifying Kelly for replacing VanGorder. What would they do to ND if they fired him after a rough 2016 season?

Ara...at 61, I'm going to yield to your eldership. However......I can't agree with your analysis when considering the peer programs Notre Dame should be measured against. Take Georgia for example.....Mark Richt would be rated above Brian Kelly in the top 20 head coaches...and has been. Yet, Georgia fired him. Why? He had plateaued...and could not move the needle any further in the SEC. Yet, he won 9 to 10 games a year...in the SEC. He was fired. There comes a point where expectations and identity intersect.....and a decision is made.....in some cases...that decision is for a contract extension and a raise...in others....its termination and replacement. If Mark Richt can be released at Georgia....one would think that a very strong argument could be made for terminating Brian Kelly at Notre Dame. BTW...look where Richt landed.....Miami. BK? Maybe Miami of Ohio.

 

[NDSMC78]

Ara...at 61, I'm going to yield to your eldership. However......I can't agree with your analysis when considering the peer programs Notre Dame should be measured against. Take Georgia for example.....Mark Richt would be rated above Brian Kelly in the top 20 head coaches...and has been. Yet, Georgia fired him. Why? He had plateaued...and could not move the needle any further in the SEC. Yet, he won 9 to 10 games a year...in the SEC. He was fired. There comes a point where expectations and identity intersect.....and a decision is made.....in some cases...that decision is for a contract extension and a raise...in others....its termination and replacement. If Mark Richt can be released at Georgia....one would think that a very strong argument could be made for terminating Brian Kelly at Notre Dame. BTW...look where Richt landed.....Miami. BK? Maybe Miami of Ohio.

I'm not sure that I see the Richt parallel. Richt coached at UGA for 15 years. So to the extent he did not meet expectations, or, as you put it, move the needle, it sure took UGA a long time to come to that realization. I think Richt's first seven years were better than his last eight, FWIW.


http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_year_by_year.php?coachid=1977

 

[Harpo Marxist]

I'm not sure that I see the Richt parallel. Richt coached at UGA for 15 years. So to the extent he did not meet expectations, or, as you put it, move the needle, it sure took UGA a long time to come to that realization. I think Richt's first seven years were better than his last eight, FWIW.


http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/coaching/alltime_coach_year_by_year.php?coachid=1977

thats a fair point.....but given that Richt's record was in the SEC....the question would be...where would Kelly fare in that conference over 14 years? Who knows? But my point was really to expectations of a given program. Georgia knows what it wants....and it gave Richt 14 years to achieve the desired results. Does Notre Dame? Another example would be John Cooper at tOSU. He was successful not unlike Brian Kelly. His record at tOSU after 12 years was 111-43-4. But tOSU wanted better results than they were convinced he could deliver. He was fired. Again, the expections/identity intersection.

 

[Nocalirish]

I would hope ND wants to at least go to a bowl game every year.

 

[NDSMC78]

thats a fair point.....but given that Richt's record was in the SEC....the question would be...where would Kelly fare in that conference over 14 years? Who knows? But my point was really to expectations of a given program. Georgia knows what it wants....and it gave Richt 14 years to achieve the desired results. Does Notre Dame? Another example would be John Cooper at tOSU. He was successful not unlike Brian Kelly. But tOSU wanted better results than they were convinced he could deliver. He was fired. Again, the expections/identity intersection.

IMO, if you fire your coach, you better have somebody better lined up to replace him. UGA gave Richt 15 years. When he was fired, I think it was implicit that expectations were not reached. Kirby Smart is new at the job. We will see how he stacks up against Richt. My guess is that he will not do as well.
At Tennessee, they fired Fulmer after a few lesser seasons, even though he won the 1998 NC. They flailed around for years, and my personal opinion is that Fulmer was better than Derek Dooley and Lane Kiffin. The point being is that ND could do worse than Kelly. Not only could we do worse, we have done worse (Weis, Willingham, Davie, Faust).

 

[Harpo Marxist]

My point about Brian Kelly is not about "season record...wins and losses". Its really about..."have we plateaued?....and "is this as far as it goes"?......

There are many examples of successful coaches who have not, and will not win a national championship and were eventually fired by the school. Two were cited above...Richt and Cooper. That highlights the programs that place an emphasis on national championships versus all the rest.

Notre Dame is not unique or unreasonably stringent on that score. Its about the expections within the confines of the tradition. Schools which fire their coaches after years of very good but not great results are doing so in order to affect the change necessary to move the needle in the desired direction.....up. That is not a bad thing for the elite programs. In fact, we need them to act. If not, Nick Saban would not be at Alabama and Urban Meyer would not be Ohio State.

Notre Dame needs to read the memo....and replace Brian Kelly.

 

[NDSMC78]

My point about Brian Kelly is not about "season record...wins and losses". Its really about..."have we plateaued?....and "is this as far as it goes"?......

There are many examples of successful coaches who have not, and will not win a national championship and were eventually fired by the school. Two were cited above...Richt and Cooper. That highlights the programs that place an emphasis on national championships versus all the rest.

Notre Dame is not unique or unreasonably stringent on that score. Its about the expections within the confines of the tradition. Schools which fire their coaches after years of very good but not great results are doing so in order to affect the change necessary to move the needle in the desired direction.....up. That is not a bad thing for the elite programs. In fact, we need them to act. If not, Nick Saban would not be at Alabama and Urban Meyer would not be Ohio State.

Notre Dame needs to read the memo....and replace Brian Kelly.

I agree with you on the schools' intents. They obviously want to point the needle up. Unfortunately, it does not always work out that way. Sometimes, the program goes the other way. As mentioned, Tennessee and Fulmer. Nebraska firing Frank Solich is another example.

 

[Classic Irish]

I agree with you on the schools' intents. They obviously want to point the needle up. Unfortunately, it does not always work out that way. Sometimes, the program goes the other way. As mentioned, Tennessee and Fulmer. Nebraska firing Frank Solich is another example.

I would add Maryland firing Ralph Friedgen.

 

[Java65]

What I see is a lynch mob mentality. I've never been a follower and by hell am I going to start at 62. I'm certainly not going to start by following the only two I've got ignored at this point. I've stood alone before and I'll stand alone now because I'm right. You don't fire a coach with six successful seasons because of one failed season. He gets next season to straighten out the mess then warned and replaced after the 2018 season without an 10-3 or better. That's the right way to replace a coach with his type of record and not be crucified by the media. Perception is important folks in 2016. Some in the media are crucifying Kelly for replacing VanGorder. What would they do to ND if they fired him after a rough 2016 season?

I'm not sure I'd say he's had 6 successful seasons. He's had 2 successful seasons and 4 not so much. With 4 losses this season is already in the unsuccessful category so that would be 2 successful in 7... not good.

 

[sshulk]

His recruiting is fine, his player development is fine ... his game day coaching is below average turning easy wins into close wins and close wins into losses ... and forget ever pulling off a monumental upset.

I was spoiled by Holtz who was a great gameday motivator and coach and won a lot of games he had no business winning on paper.

 

[NDEwing18]

What I see is a lynch mob mentality. I've never been a follower and by hell am I going to start at 62. I'm certainly not going to start by following the only two I've got ignored at this point. I've stood alone before and I'll stand alone now because I'm right. You don't fire a coach with six successful seasons because of one failed season. He gets next season to straighten out the mess then warned and replaced after the 2018 season without an 10-3 or better. That's the right way to replace a coach with his type of record and not be crucified by the media. Perception is important folks in 2016. Some in the media are crucifying Kelly for replacing VanGorder. What would they do to ND if they fired him after a rough 2016 season?

For what it's worth, I would beg to differ that there have been six successful seasons under Kelly's watch.