Jarron Jones and Schmidt...

[stu4don]

IIO said this early when JJ went down. It would hurt, ALOT. And it has... I wonder if some of Schmidt's diminished play has to do with not having the big guy in the middle, forcing things into lanes where Schmidt is waiting... I don't know, I'm not a coach, maybe some of your Dan Devines out there can chime in.

I'm just glad JJ will be back! Wish he could be healthy for Stanford! But I'll take him for the playoffs.

Go Irish. Beat BC. Remember '93! (No let down.)

 

[FightingIrish44]

I don't think thats it. He just misses too many tackles although he's not horrible like people make him out to he.

 

[88ND]

It doesn't help Joe Schmidt with him out, but it appears to me the team as a whole practices only going thud most of the year. Thud due to fear of injuries and can you blame them. ?

The tackling as a unit is atrocious minus Sheldon Day. Horrible technique.

 

[Irish Duck]

I've been pretty impressed with Jaylon's tackling...especially open field tackles.

 

[echowaker]

It doesn't help Joe Schmidt with him out, but it appears to me the team as a whole practices only going thud most of the year. Thud due to fear of injuries and can you blame them. ?

The tackling as a unit is atrocious minus Sheldon Day. Horrible technique.

dead horse alert ! it's not atrocious as a unit.

 

[BGI User 1596]

It doesn't help Joe Schmidt with him out, but it appears to me the team as a whole practices only going thud most of the year. Thud due to fear of injuries and can you blame them. ?

The tackling as a unit is atrocious minus Sheldon Day. Horrible technique.

TaCKLING has been terrible for years - how hard can it be to teach that

 

[88ND]

TaCKLING has been terrible for years - how hard can it be to teach that

It's not hard but repetitive coaching over and over. The best tackling team we faced this year was temple. They made a concerted effort to swarm and tackle right.

It's down to all levels beneath college. Ever since the head rule thing people don't teach it right.....which goes to show just how wrong they taught it in the first place.

 

[SwlaDukie]

I was looking at the Wake game, and on one play Schmidt looked like he had a good opportunity to make a tackle in space. There was a pulling guard coming at him, but he didn't even attempt to avoid the lineman to make the tackle. The lineman was already at the second level. He looked as he could have made the tackle easily, but he seemed to deliberately was trying to be blocked. Someone else eventually made the tackle after had the first

 

[FightingIrish44]

It's not hard but repetitive coaching over and over. The best tackling team we faced this year was temple. They made a concerted effort to swarm and tackle right.

It's down to all levels beneath college. Ever since the head rule thing people don't teach it right.....which goes to show just how wrong they taught it in the first place.

The new emphases don't have much of an impact on tackling, IMO. They usually won't call helmet to helmet nor should they. You're not supposed to tackle with the top of your head anyway (I know you know). I think a well coached team can still be very good at tackling just like its always been.

 

[88ND]

The new emphases don't have much of an impact on tackling, IMO. They usually won't call helmet to helmet nor should they. You're not supposed to tackle with the top of your head anyway (I know you know). I think a well coached team can still be very good at tackling just like its always been.

Missing what I'm saying. I've been in the game a long time.....there were those that taught tackling with leading by the head. You know exactly what I'm talking about. It was wrong but a lot taught that way.
Spearing was blatantly running into a pile and spearing someone.
My point is that those coaches who taught that have never really adjusted well enough to the proper form tackle. This is from pop Warner up through to and including college. Even the nfl today does not tackle they used to.
Add that in with everyone today tackling or hitting lazy. I mean by that they refuse to bend the knees. They would rather Frankenstein or come in for such a highlight reel hit that most times they look foolish. But oh well....They might once in a lifetime get on sports center with a big hit.....but just happened to look foolish the other 94% percent of attempts.

 

[FightingIrish44]

I was looking at the Wake game, and on one play Schmidt looked like he had a good opportunity to make a tackle in space. There was a pulling guard coming at him, but he didn't even attempt to avoid the lineman to make the tackle. The lineman was already at the second level. He looked as he could have made the tackle easily, but he seemed to deliberately was trying to be blocked. Someone else eventually made the tackle after had the first

He was probably doing what he's supposed to. As a LB, your job is to take on the lineman and fill the gap. You don't try to run around blocks. That's how big run lanes get opened up.

 

[Telx1]

Actually, I saw this happen time and time again. Joe just got crushed repeatedly, and the failure was not his, but rather the lack of DB moving up quickly for the tackle. I don't know the intricacies of Van Gorder's defensive scheme, but you can watch any number of teams on Saturday where the same results in a crushing tackle by a DB two or three yards beyond the line of scrimmage, or closer.

 

[IRISHJD98]

Actually, I saw this happen time and time again. Joe just got crushed repeatedly, and the failure was not his, but rather the lack of DB moving up quickly for the tackle. I don't know the intricacies of Van Gorder's defensive scheme, but you can watch any number of teams on Saturday where the same results in a crushing tackle by a DB two or three yards beyond the line of scrimmage, or closer.

And yet somehow it seems like our DB's are all about playing the run first on play action.

 

[ndfi65]

He was probably doing what he's supposed to. As a LB, your job is to take on the lineman and fill the gap. You don't try to run around blocks. That's how big run lanes get opened up.

Do you know how stupid that sounds? As a LB or any position on defense. Your job is to tackle the ball carrier, not dance with offensive lineman.

 

[echowaker]

Missing what I'm saying. I've been in the game a long time.....there were those that taught tackling with leading by the head. You know exactly what I'm talking about. It was wrong but a lot taught that way.
Spearing was blatantly running into a pile and spearing someone.
My point is that those coaches who taught that have never really adjusted well enough to the proper form tackle. This is from pop Warner up through to and including college. Even the nfl today does not tackle they used to.
Add that in with everyone today tackling or hitting lazy. I mean by that they refuse to bend the knees. They would rather Frankenstein or come in for such a highlight reel hit that most times they look foolish. But oh well....They might once in a lifetime get on sports center with a big hit.....but just happened to look foolish the other 94% percent of attempts.

you say you've been in the game a long time. please elaborate as some of your posts make no sense to me.

 

[echowaker]

Do you know how stupid that sounds? As a LB or any position on defense. Your job is to tackle the ball carrier, not dance with offensive lineman.

wow are you fundamentally way off. you clearly don't understand scheme.

 

[NDlb46]

Do you know how stupid that sounds? As a LB or any position on defense. Your job is to tackle the ball carrier, not dance with offensive lineman.

You are partially correct and the others who are saying it is his job to occupy a blocker are partially correct. It all depends on the defensive play call, individual responsibility, and offensive scheme. Each D player is responsible for a gap and plays that gap to either spill (force the ball carrier outside) or squeeze (force the ball carrier inside) based upon their reads and where the help is. This can be different each play depending on the blocking scheme of the offense.

For example, with Joe (and I don't know what he reads specifically: backfield, center-guard, cross read in shotgun, etc), if his first key is the strong side guard (again hypothetical, I'm not in the practices), the guard could block down on the DT, base block to Joe, pull either direction, reach block to get leverage outside, zone block in unison w/ the rest of the line, or pass set.

If that guard pulls the other direction, that turns Joe into the attacker over top of the defense. That guard is designed to kick out a DE or lead up on an OLB most of the time, so Joe's responsibility as his gap now shifts with the guard is to trail it, fight over top of another blocker if he's coming to seal Joe off, and tackle the ball carrier if he cuts back.

If the guard blocks down on a DT and the gap is open, Joe fills the gap and will typically meet a pulling or trapping lineman, fullback or even TE nowadays. His job then is to close that gap and force the ball carrier to his help, OR if he's athletic enough, stun the blocker, fight off while keeping his gap integrity and make the tackle (i.e. The good old Oklahoma drill).

Another example using Rochelle. If he's on the end of the line and his OT or TE block down, there's likely a guard pulling to kick him out. A lot of coaches and schemes call for him to "wrong arm" the puller and cut into the designed gap forcing the ball carrier to the OLB MLB or safety. But, with everything, if he's athletic enough, he blows through the puller, knocks the RB off course and gets a TFL.

Other times, a specific blitz, stunt or slant are called and it's damn the linemen, get penetration and make a play in the backfield. That's a risk reward call.

So both are correct. But I'll say it again, these situations are based on my playing experiences in D3 in college and then being a D coach and later coordinator in D1 high school. I played in a 4-3 base defense with multiple fronts and a dime and bear package. We were heavy on the zone dog or fire zone blitz schemes which I see at times watching ND. I don't have the playbook and am not in the meetings or practices so my hypothetical situations are based solely on my own experience.

 

[FightingIrish44]

Do you know how stupid that sounds? As a LB or any position on defense. Your job is to tackle the ball carrier, not dance with offensive lineman.

Have you ever played football? Hilarious that you're asking me if I know how stupid that sounds.

 

[echowaker]

Have you ever played football? Hilarious that you're asking me if I know how stupid that sounds.

my guess is ABSOLUTELY not.

 

[FightingIrish44]

my guess is ABSOLUTELY not.

And this is what I hate about message boards and the "fanatic fan". The loudest ones and the ones always second guessing are the ones that are most ignorant.

 

[FightingIrish44]

You are partially correct and the others who are saying it is his job to occupy a blocker are partially correct. It all depends on the defensive play call, individual responsibility, and offensive scheme. Each D player is responsible for a gap and plays that gap to either spill (force the ball carrier outside) or squeeze (force the ball carrier inside) based upon their reads and where the help is. This can be different each play depending on the blocking scheme of the offense.

For example, with Joe (and I don't know what he reads specifically: backfield, center-guard, cross read in shotgun, etc), if his first key is the strong side guard (again hypothetical, I'm not in the practices), the guard could block down on the DT, base block to Joe, pull either direction, reach block to get leverage outside, zone block in unison w/ the rest of the line, or pass set.

If that guard pulls the other direction, that turns Joe into the attacker over top of the defense. That guard is designed to kick out a DE or lead up on an OLB most of the time, so Joe's responsibility as his gap now shifts with the guard is to trail it, fight over top of another blocker if he's coming to seal Joe off, and tackle the ball carrier if he cuts back.

If the guard blocks down on a DT and the gap is open, Joe fills the gap and will typically meet a pulling or trapping lineman, fullback or even TE nowadays. His job then is to close that gap and force the ball carrier to his help, OR if he's athletic enough, stun the blocker, fight off while keeping his gap integrity and make the tackle (i.e. The good old Oklahoma drill).

Another example using Rochelle. If he's on the end of the line and his OT or TE block down, there's likely a guard pulling to kick him out. A lot of coaches and schemes call for him to "wrong arm" the puller and cut into the designed gap forcing the ball carrier to the OLB MLB or safety. But, with everything, if he's athletic enough, he blows through the puller, knocks the RB off course and gets a TFL.

Other times, a specific blitz, stunt or slant are called and it's damn the linemen, get penetration and make a play in the backfield. That's a risk reward call.

So both are correct. But I'll say it again, these situations are based on my playing experiences in D3 in college and then being a D coach and later coordinator in D1 high school. I played in a 4-3 base defense with multiple fronts and a dime and bear package. We were heavy on the zone dog or fire zone blitz schemes which I see at times watching ND. I don't have the playbook and am not in the meetings or practices so my hypothetical situations are based solely on my own experience.

Thanks for typing that out. I doubt that guy takes the time to read it or can understand. Its also important to know what the coverage call is (does the linebacker have help on the cutback so he can fly to the ball? If not, he has to be prepared for the ball to cutback). So even forgetting about lineman, its not always the LB's jobs to fly to the ball.

 

[echowaker]

Thanks for typing that out. I doubt that guy takes the time to read it or can understand. Its also important to know what the coverage call is (does the linebacker have help on the cutback so he can fly to the ball? If not, he has to be prepared for the ball to cutback). So even forgetting about lineman, its not always the LB's jobs to fly to the ball.

correct. that guy CLEARLY doesn't understand schemes and specific players responsibilities. he probably thought the best way to defend navy or Georgia tech was to have everyone attack the QB.

 

[DieHard_Irish]

Scheme is everything, it's why you always see coach Kelly yelling at players to "do your job". Been saying this for weeks. All these people ripping JS really have not a clue exactly what he is suppose to be doing. That's why I've been saying it's laughable for message board jockeys to critic JS's play and continually call for the backup

 

[FightingIrish44]

I was looking at the Wake game, and on one play Schmidt looked like he had a good opportunity to make a tackle in space. There was a pulling guard coming at him, but he didn't even attempt to avoid the lineman to make the tackle. The lineman was already at the second level. He looked as he could have made the tackle easily, but he seemed to deliberately was trying to be blocked. Someone else eventually made the tackle after had the first

I think I know what play you're talking about. 9:52 of the 2nd quarter. Its actually a TE. ND has a line stunt on that takes all 4 DL out of the play. There's a huge hole in the middle of the formation and there are two blockers with no defensive linemen on them (bad news). Schmidt sees the one blocker leading through the hole and take him on and the ballcarrier just runs outside of it.

It looks odd at first glance, but there really wasn't anything he could do about it. Just collision the first guy you see.

 

[ndfi65]

I was looking at the Wake game, and on one play Schmidt looked like he had a good opportunity to make a tackle in space. There was a pulling guard coming at him, but he didn't even attempt to avoid the lineman to make the tackle. The lineman was already at the second level. He looked as he could have made the tackle easily, but he seemed to deliberately was trying to be blocked. Someone else eventually made the tackle after had the first

This is exactly my point, however fight44 and echo think they know everything and their boy Joe S does no wrong. According to them, Joe is doing his job taking on blocks all the time because this is his only responsibility. Just to clarify to you two idiots, I've prob played more football than you two wannabees put together so I'll leave it at that. What I think is stupid is watching an inside LB take on a block WHEN HE DOESN'T HAVE TO and watch the RB run right down the field.

 

[FightingIrish44]

This is exactly my point, however fight44 and echo think they know everything and their boy Joe S does no wrong. According to them, Joe is doing his job taking on blocks all the time because this is his only responsibility. Just to clarify to you two idiots, I've prob played more football than you two wannabees put together so I'll leave it at that. What I think is stupid is watching an inside LB take on a block WHEN HE DOESN'T HAVE TO and watch the RB run right down the field.

I've never made the claim that Schmidt is a good player. All I said was it sounds like he was doing what he was supposed to by taking on a block. You're the one who said its not a players job to "dance" with a lineman but get to the ballcarrier. That sounds like something that someone who is really ignorant about the game would say. Someone who knows something about the game knows that defenders need to collision blockers/receivers to reduce the amount of space/force the offensive player to somewhere he doesn't want to go.

Show me a play where Schmidt unnecessarily takes on a block.

 

[echowaker]

This is exactly my point, however fight44 and echo think they know everything and their boy Joe S does no wrong. According to them, Joe is doing his job taking on blocks all the time because this is his only responsibility. Just to clarify to you two idiots, I've prob played more football than you two wannabees put together so I'll leave it at that. What I think is stupid is watching an inside LB take on a block WHEN HE DOESN'T HAVE TO and watch the RB run right down the field.

okay what is your football pedigree ? I'm guessing not much if any based on all your posts. you clearly do not understand the principles or fundamentals of any defensive scheme. I played in the big 10. you ? NO ONE here has ever claimed joe Schmidt is a great player. all we've ever maintained is that the coaching staff is best equipped to determine which players give notre dame the best chance to be successful. you on the other hand sit in front of your 19 inch portable on Saturday and think you know best.

 

[NDCap]

3 games to go with Joe . Lets hope they are his best games. It's a team game but the ILB does have to take on a block and shed a block . get involved in the play. Sometimes Joe does and other times he does not. He is not Manti. We have been used to Manti . The Calabrese and Fox show was so-so. Grace was coming on and I think he might have been a great one but the injury was devastating. Joe Schmidt was better pre- injury and what's with the cast ? He is a great leader and that goes a long way with his teammates and coaches.

 

[Granite45]

This is exactly my point, however fight44 and echo think they know everything and their boy Joe S does no wrong. According to them, Joe is doing his job taking on blocks all the time because this is his only responsibility. Just to clarify to you two idiots, I've prob played more football than you two wannabees put together so I'll leave it at that. What I think is stupid is watching an inside LB take on a block WHEN HE DOESN'T HAVE TO and watch the RB run right down the field.

Your comments make no sense if you truly have such experience. You use absolutist rhetoric when you would know that isn't applicable.