How could a defense with this many 4 stars be SO bad?

[Johnny Fairplay]

Honestly, a monkey could have gotten these results with this defense. A monkey could have guided this team to 4-8.

You don't have to have a great DC to get decent results. It's about Jimmys and Joe's at this level, not Xs and Os.

 

[perseverare]

^ the other teams have players too!

There are a lot of 4*'s and all 4* players are not equal in abilities. A 6.0 rated prospect is not the same projected talent as a 5.8 rated prospect, but both are 4*.

Who are the top players on the ND defense?

 

[shabak]

Honestly, a monkey could have gotten these results with this defense. A monkey could have guided this team to 4-8.

You don't have to have a great DC to get decent results. It's about Jimmys and Joe's at this level, not Xs and Os.

Poor coaching poor scheme. Not all 4 stars are created equal

 

[twalsh]

Honestly, a monkey could have gotten these results with this defense. A monkey could have guided this team to 4-8.

You don't have to have a great DC to get decent results. It's about Jimmys and Joe's at this level, not Xs and Os.

That's why we have a pretty much new coaching staff. People internally were asking the same question.

 

[perseverare]

defensive recruiting has not been at the 4* level.

Any examination of defensiveclasses for 14,15. 16 will go a long way in explaining the defensive ineffectiveness.

 

[NDskins]

Honestly, a monkey could have gotten these results with this defense. A monkey could have guided this team to 4-8.

You don't have to have a great DC to get decent results. It's about Jimmys and Joe's at this level, not Xs and Os.

What makes you think a monkey didn't do it?

 

[Telx1]

Just asking the question will generate our never ending debate of coaching versus talent. My view is that three things contributed to last year's debacle. First among these was a terrible D.C. With a terrible scheme for college ball. Second was Insufficient experienced defensive talent. Third, was the pathetic S&C program and overall lax culture that crept into the program. Numbers one and three have been addressed with the new hires. Number two was partially addressed by last year's need to insert so many young guys into the starting lineup and our secondary should be vastly improved. While we recruited better than we had reason to expect this past cycle, the reality is we have consistently lacked getting the one or two elite players we need to recruit annually to elevate the defense to a top tier program. Our three and four star guys are talented, but we still need a few difference makers on the field. I think this new staff will get us there.

 

[perseverare]

^ in this case: coaching or talent? both have been far less than necessary to be relevant to playoff discussion.

 

[Pennick44]

There is more than enough talent to field a very good defense.

 

[NotreDame du Lac]

^ the other teams have players too!

There are a lot of 4*'s and all 4* players are not equal in abilities. A 6.0 rated prospect is not the same projected talent as a 5.8 rated prospect, but both are 4*.

Who are the top players on the ND defense?

That wasn't the point of the post. He was stating that a team with this many 4*'s shouldn't have just 4 wins. True statement when you look at the teams we lost to. It's mind boggling, but it's probably as simple as good ole fashioned hard work (or lack thereof). These are young kids, not intrinsically motivated entrepreneurs. Most of them are probably fairly lazy like most college kids. They have to be inspired and pushed.

Hard work beats talent every time when the talent gap is of such small margins.

 

[perseverare]

Well I disagree with his implication that there is so much talent.
Defensively, ND has not recruited at a Top15 level; nor even top 20.
Morgan,Tillery,Hayes are probably the top recruits from each of the last 3 classes.
After those 3 there is a notable dropoff.
Big things are expected from Morgan after sitting 2 years behind a walkon.
Tillery was a recruit rated as an OL. Yet he was generally the top D recruit in his class.
Hayes is really in 1st year and we don't really know what he will be.

If you remove those guys from the respective classes then how do you view each class?

 

[Pennick44]

There is more than enough talent to field a very good defense

 

[twalsh]

^ in this case: coaching or talent? both have been far less than necessary to be relevant to playoff discussion.

We have more than enough talent to play defense at a much higher level than we have for the past couple of seasons. You don't need Bama's talent to have a top 25 defense. And top 25 would be light years better than we have played.

 

[Zorich 88]

Honestly, a monkey could have gotten these results with this defense. A monkey could have guided this team to 4-8.

You don't have to have a great DC to get decent results. It's about Jimmys and Joe's at this level, not Xs and Os.

4* high school players do not always equal 4* college players.

Coaching/developing high school players into College athletes.

 

[TOMMY_23]

Honestly, a monkey could have gotten these results with this defense. A monkey could have guided this team to 4-8.

You don't have to have a great DC to get decent results. It's about Jimmys and Joe's at this level, not Xs and Os.

Recruiting is unbelievably overrated. Recruiting mags/sites are all about dollars. No matter how bad of a class big name programs (more fan$) have they'll be rated high in the recruiting rankings so more subscriptions are sold.

 

[perseverare]

The bar is now set at top 25. I agree that when paired with the elite offensive talent that the ND defense can be adequate enough to compete for a top 25 ranking.

 

[Zorich 88]

I like be the 4-2-5 defense. You are forced to be fast and aggressive. You have to hit the hole hard and with confidence.

 

[perseverare]

Z

go to the Bama commitment list 2014-16
look at the 4* names. Most are not names that jump out at you.
But now look at the 5* lists. Most you know as having been stars. There are only 25-30 5*'s in a class.
Teams who are recruiting elite talent are teams contending.

 

[Johnny Fairplay]

I am serious in that a monkey could have guided this team to 4-8. And I'm not even talking about those smart chimpanzees. One of those dumb spider monkeys gets 4 wins.

 

[FernCreekCat67]

A couple of thoughts - Some disparity of recruiting on the two sides of the ball... ND recruits at a Top 5 level on offense; maybe Top 25 on defense... Recruiting on the defensive side of the ball must pick up, particularly along the line.

The past several years ND had poor defensive coordinating and very poor player development/S&C. This is why the bottom finally fell out last year. Kelly should be embarrassed by, and nearly fired for, allowing Van Gorder and Longo to hang around as long as they did. I like the replacements; we'll have to see how long it takes for their impact to be felt. Below is my best guess at player placement, etc., on the 2017 roster. The are some positions on offense that are just ridiculously talented.

NOTRE DAME 2017

86 Total
Offense – 40
Defense – 42
Special Teams – 4

QB(4)
Mont. VanGorder 6-1 215 QB Sr. (1) Rivals NR
Brandon Wimbush 6-1 226 QB Jr. [2] Rivals 4* [6.0] – 1
Ian Book 6-0 205 QB So. [3] Rivals 3* [5.7] – 2
Avery Davis 5-11 185 QB Fr. [4] Rivals 3* [5.7]

TB(4)
Josh Adams 6-2 220 TB Jr. [1] Rivals 3* [5.7] – 1
Dexter Williams 5-11 202 TB Jr. [1] Rivals 4* [5.9] – 2
Tony Jones 5-11 224 TB So. [3] Rivals 3* [5.6]
C.J. Holmes 6-0 206 TB Fr. [4] Rivals 4* [5.8]

WR – W (Boundary) (3)
Eq. St. Brown 6-5 204 WR Jr. [1] Rivals 4* [5.9] – 1
Miles Boykin 6-4 225 WR Jr. [2] Rivals 4* [5.9] – 2
Chase Claypool 6-4 224 WR So. [2] Rivals 4* [5.9]

WR – X (Split Wide) (4)
Freddy Canteen 6-3 170 WR Sr. [1] Rivals 4* [5.8]
Kevin Stepherson 6-0 180 WR So. [2] Rivals 3* [5.7] – 1
Javon McKinley 6-2 220 WR So. [2] Rivals 4* [6.0] – 2
Jafar Armstrong 6-0 170 WR Fr. [4] Rivals 3* [5.7]

SWR – Z (4)
C.J. Sanders 5-8 185 SWR Jr. [1] Rivals 4* [5.8] – 1
Chris Finke 5-10 177 SWR Jr. [2] Walk-On – 2
Deon McIntosh 5-11 190 SWR So. [3] Rivals 3* [5.6]
Michael Young 5-10 170 SWR Fr. [4] Rivals 3* [5.6]

TE(6)
Durham Smythe 6-5 256 TE 5th Rivals 3* [5.7] – 2
Tyler Luatua 6-3 260 TE Sr. Rivals 3* [5.7]
Nic Weisher 6-4 242 TE Sr. [1] Rivals 4* [5.8]
Alize Jones 6-5 245 TE Jr. [2] Rivals 4* [5.9] – 1
Brock Wright 6-5 252 TE Fr. [4] Rivals 4* [6.0]
Cole Kmet 6-4 235 TE Fr. [4] Rivals 3* [5.9]

C(4)
Sam Mustipher 6-3 305 C Sr. [1] Rivals 4* [5.8] – 1
Tristen Hoge 6-5 303 C Jr. [2] Rivals 4* [5.9] – 2
Parker Boudreax 6-3 288 C So. [3] Rivals 4* [5.8]
Dillan Gibbons 6-4 315 C Fr. [4] Rivals 3* [5.7]

OG(4)
Quenton Nelson 6-5 329 OG Sr. [1] Rivals 5* [6.1] – 1LG
Alex Bars 6-6 320 OG Sr. [1] Rivals 4* [6.0] – 1RG
Trevor Ruhland 6-4 303 OG Jr. [2] Rivals 3* [5.7] – 2RG
Aaron Banks 6-5 310 OG Fr. [4] Rivals 4* [5.9]

OT(7)
Mike McGlinchey 6-8 312 OT 5th Rivals 4* [5.8] – 1LT
Hunter Bivin 6-6 318 OT 5th Rivals 4* [5.8] – 2LT & 2LG
Jimmy Byrne 6-4 294 OT Sr. [1] Rivals 4* [5.8]
Tommy Kraemer 6-5 313 OT So. [3] Rivals 4* [6.0] – 1RT
Liam Eichenberg 6-6 294 OT So. [3] Rivals 4* [5.8] – 2RT
Joshua Lugg 6-6 280 OT Fr. [4] Rivals 4* [5.8]
Robert Hainsley 6-5 292 OT Fr. [4] Rivals 4* [5.9]

NT(4)
Daniel Cage 6-1 329 NT Sr. Rivals 3* [5.7] – 2
Pete Mokwuah 6-3 326 NT Sr. [1] Rivals 3* [5.5]
Jerry Tillery 6-7 308 NT Jr. [1] Rivals 4* [5.9] – 1
Darnell Ewell 6-4 280 NT Fr. [4] Rivals 4* [5.9]

DT/3-Technique(6)
Jonathan Bonner 6-3 284 DT Sr. [1] Rivals 3* [5.6] – 1
M. Dew-Treadway 6-4 299 NT Jr. [2] Rivals 3* [5.7] – 2
Elijah Taylor 6-3 280 DT Jr. [2] Rivals 3* [5.7]
Brandon Tiassum 6-4 304 DT Jr. [2] Rivals 3* [5.7]
Myron Tagovailoa 6-4 250 DT Fr. [4] Rivals 3* [5.7]
Kurt Hinish 6-2 280 DT Fr. [4] Rivals 3* [5.7]

SDE(4)
Andrew Trumbetti 6-4 252 SDE Sr. Rivals 3* [5.7] – 1
Jay Hayes 6-3 281 SDE Sr. [1] Rivals 4* [5.8] – 2
Khalid Kareem 6-4 267 SDE So. [3] Rivals 4* [5.8]
Jon MacCollister 6-3 244 SDE Fr. [4] Rivals 3* [5.6]

WDE/Drop(4)
Daelin Hayes 6-4 255 WDE So. [2] Rivals 5* [6.1] – 1
Julian Okwara 6-4 235 WDE So. [2] Rivals 4* [5.8] – 2
Ade Ogundeji 6-4 251 WDE So. [3] Rivals 3* [5.5]
Kofi Wardlow 6-3 210 WDE Fr. [4] Rivals 3* [5.6]

MLB(5)
Nyles Morgan 6-1 238 MLB Sr. Rivals 4* [5.9] – 1
Josh Barajas 6-2 239 WLB Jr. [2] Rivals 4* [5.8]
Jonathan Jones 5-11 227 MLB So. [3] Rivals 3* [5.7] – 2
Jamir Jones 6-3 243 MLB So. [3] Rivals 3* [5.6]
David Adams 6-1 222 MLB Fr. [4] Rivals 4* [5.9]

WLB/ILB/Buck(3)
Greer Martini 6-3 240 WLB Sr. Rivals 3* [5.5] – 1
Te’von Coney 6-1 235 WLB Jr. [1] Rivals 4* [5.9] – 2
Drew White 6-1 220 WLB Fr. [4] Rivals 3* [5.6]

Rover(4)
Drue Tranquill 6-2 230 Rover Sr. [1] Rivals 3* [5.7] – 1
Asmar Bilal 6-2 229 Rover Jr. [2] Rivals 4* [5.8] – 2
D.J. Morgan 6-2 208 Rover So. [3] Rivals 4* [5.8]
Jeremiah Owusu 6-2 205 Rover Fr. [4] Rivals 3* [5.7]

CB(5)
Nick Watkins 6-1 203 CB Sr. [1] Rivals 4* [5.8] – 1Boundary
Shaun Crawford 5-9 175 CB Jr. [2] Rivals 4* [5.9]
Julian Love 5-11 190 CB So. [2] Rivals 4* [5.8] – 1Field
Donte Vaughn 6-2 209 CB So. [2] Rivals 4* [5.8] – 2Boundary
Troy Pride 5-11 183 CB So. [2] Rivals 4* [5.8] – 2Field

FS(3)
Nicco Fertitta 5-9 179 FS Jr. [1] Rivals 3* [5.6]
Ashton White 5-11 197 FS Jr. [2] Rivals 3* [5.6] – 2
Jalen Elliott 6-0 208 FS So. [2] Rivals 4* [5.8] – 1

SS(4)
Nick Coleman 6-0 187 SS Jr. [1] Rivals 3* [5.6] – 1
Devin Studstill 6-0 198 SS So. [2] Rivals 3* [5.7] – 2
Isaiah Robertson 6-2 208 SS Fr. [4] Rivals 4* [5.8]
Jordan Heath 6-2 200 SS Fr. [4] Rivals 3* [5.6]

K/P/ST(4)
Tyler Newsome 6-3 207 P Sr. [1] Rivals 3* [5.5]
Justin Yoon 5-10 195 K Jr. [1] Rivals 3* [5.5]
John Shannon 6-2 235 LS So. [3] Rivals 2* [5.2]
Jonathan Doerer 6-3 188 K Fr. [4] Rivals 2* [5.3]

 

[floridairish]

I like be the 4-2-5 defense. You are forced to be fast and aggressive. You have to hit the hole hard and with confidence.

What hole are you talking about? And what do you mean that you are "forced" to play fast and aggressive? As opposed to the option of playing slow and passive? You gotta love the internet.

 

[perseverare]

A couple of thoughts - Some disparity of recruiting on the two sides of the ball... ND recruits at a Top 5 level on offense; maybe Top 25 on defense... Recruiting on the defensive side of the ball must pick up, particularly along the line.

The past several years ND had poor defensive coordinating and very poor player development/S&C. This is why the bottom finally fell out last year. Kelly should be embarrassed by, and nearly fired for, allowing Van Gorder and Longo to hang around as long as they did. I like the replacements; we'll have to see how long it takes for their impact to be felt. Below is my best guess at player placement, etc., on the 2017 roster. The are some positions on offense that are just ridiculously talented.

NOTRE DAME 2017

86 Total
Offense – 40
Defense – 42
Special Teams – 4

QB(4)
Mont. VanGorder 6-1 215 QB Sr. (1) Rivals NR
Brandon Wimbush 6-1 226 QB Jr. [2] Rivals 4* [6.0] – 1
Ian Book 6-0 205 QB So. [3] Rivals 3* [5.7] – 2
Avery Davis 5-11 185 QB Fr. [4] Rivals 3* [5.7]

TB(4)
Josh Adams 6-2 220 TB Jr. [1] Rivals 3* [5.7] – 1
Dexter Williams 5-11 202 TB Jr. [1] Rivals 4* [5.9] – 2
Tony Jones 5-11 224 TB So. [3] Rivals 3* [5.6]
C.J. Holmes 6-0 206 TB Fr. [4] Rivals 4* [5.8]

WR – W (Boundary) (3)
Eq. St. Brown 6-5 204 WR Jr. [1] Rivals 4* [5.9] – 1
Miles Boykin 6-4 225 WR Jr. [2] Rivals 4* [5.9] – 2
Chase Claypool 6-4 224 WR So. [2] Rivals 4* [5.9]

WR – X (Split Wide) (4)
Freddy Canteen 6-3 170 WR Sr. [1] Rivals 4* [5.8]
Kevin Stepherson 6-0 180 WR So. [2] Rivals 3* [5.7] – 1
Javon McKinley 6-2 220 WR So. [2] Rivals 4* [6.0] – 2
Jafar Armstrong 6-0 170 WR Fr. [4] Rivals 3* [5.7]

SWR – Z (4)
C.J. Sanders 5-8 185 SWR Jr. [1] Rivals 4* [5.8] – 1
Chris Finke 5-10 177 SWR Jr. [2] Walk-On – 2
Deon McIntosh 5-11 190 SWR So. [3] Rivals 3* [5.6]
Michael Young 5-10 170 SWR Fr. [4] Rivals 3* [5.6]

TE(6)
Durham Smythe 6-5 256 TE 5th Rivals 3* [5.7] – 2
Tyler Luatua 6-3 260 TE Sr. Rivals 3* [5.7]
Nic Weisher 6-4 242 TE Sr. [1] Rivals 4* [5.8]
Alize Jones 6-5 245 TE Jr. [2] Rivals 4* [5.9] – 1
Brock Wright 6-5 252 TE Fr. [4] Rivals 4* [6.0]
Cole Kmet 6-4 235 TE Fr. [4] Rivals 3* [5.9]

C(4)
Sam Mustipher 6-3 305 C Sr. [1] Rivals 4* [5.8] – 1
Tristen Hoge 6-5 303 C Jr. [2] Rivals 4* [5.9] – 2
Parker Boudreax 6-3 288 C So. [3] Rivals 4* [5.8]
Dillan Gibbons 6-4 315 C Fr. [4] Rivals 3* [5.7]

OG(4)
Quenton Nelson 6-5 329 OG Sr. [1] Rivals 5* [6.1] – 1LG
Alex Bars 6-6 320 OG Sr. [1] Rivals 4* [6.0] – 1RG
Trevor Ruhland 6-4 303 OG Jr. [2] Rivals 3* [5.7] – 2RG
Aaron Banks 6-5 310 OG Fr. [4] Rivals 4* [5.9]

OT(7)
Mike McGlinchey 6-8 312 OT 5th Rivals 4* [5.8] – 1LT
Hunter Bivin 6-6 318 OT 5th Rivals 4* [5.8] – 2LT & 2LG
Jimmy Byrne 6-4 294 OT Sr. [1] Rivals 4* [5.8]
Tommy Kraemer 6-5 313 OT So. [3] Rivals 4* [6.0] – 1RT
Liam Eichenberg 6-6 294 OT So. [3] Rivals 4* [5.8] – 2RT
Joshua Lugg 6-6 280 OT Fr. [4] Rivals 4* [5.8]
Robert Hainsley 6-5 292 OT Fr. [4] Rivals 4* [5.9]

NT(4)
Daniel Cage 6-1 329 NT Sr. Rivals 3* [5.7] – 2
Pete Mokwuah 6-3 326 NT Sr. [1] Rivals 3* [5.5]
Jerry Tillery 6-7 308 NT Jr. [1] Rivals 4* [5.9] – 1
Darnell Ewell 6-4 280 NT Fr. [4] Rivals 4* [5.9]

DT/3-Technique(6)
Jonathan Bonner 6-3 284 DT Sr. [1] Rivals 3* [5.6] – 1
M. Dew-Treadway 6-4 299 NT Jr. [2] Rivals 3* [5.7] – 2
Elijah Taylor 6-3 280 DT Jr. [2] Rivals 3* [5.7]
Brandon Tiassum 6-4 304 DT Jr. [2] Rivals 3* [5.7]
Myron Tagovailoa 6-4 250 DT Fr. [4] Rivals 3* [5.7]
Kurt Hinish 6-2 280 DT Fr. [4] Rivals 3* [5.7]

SDE(4)
Andrew Trumbetti 6-4 252 SDE Sr. Rivals 3* [5.7] – 1
Jay Hayes 6-3 281 SDE Sr. [1] Rivals 4* [5.8] – 2
Khalid Kareem 6-4 267 SDE So. [3] Rivals 4* [5.8]
Jon MacCollister 6-3 244 SDE Fr. [4] Rivals 3* [5.6]

WDE/Drop(4)
Daelin Hayes 6-4 255 WDE So. [2] Rivals 5* [6.1] – 1
Julian Okwara 6-4 235 WDE So. [2] Rivals 4* [5.8] – 2
Ade Ogundeji 6-4 251 WDE So. [3] Rivals 3* [5.5]
Kofi Wardlow 6-3 210 WDE Fr. [4] Rivals 3* [5.6]

MLB(5)
Nyles Morgan 6-1 238 MLB Sr. Rivals 4* [5.9] – 1
Josh Barajas 6-2 239 WLB Jr. [2] Rivals 4* [5.8]
Jonathan Jones 5-11 227 MLB So. [3] Rivals 3* [5.7] – 2
Jamir Jones 6-3 243 MLB So. [3] Rivals 3* [5.6]
David Adams 6-1 222 MLB Fr. [4] Rivals 4* [5.9]

WLB/ILB/Buck(3)
Greer Martini 6-3 240 WLB Sr. Rivals 3* [5.5] – 1
Te’von Coney 6-1 235 WLB Jr. [1] Rivals 4* [5.9] – 2
Drew White 6-1 220 WLB Fr. [4] Rivals 3* [5.6]

Rover(4)
Drue Tranquill 6-2 230 Rover Sr. [1] Rivals 3* [5.7] – 1
Asmar Bilal 6-2 229 Rover Jr. [2] Rivals 4* [5.8] – 2
D.J. Morgan 6-2 208 Rover So. [3] Rivals 4* [5.8]
Jeremiah Owusu 6-2 205 Rover Fr. [4] Rivals 3* [5.7]

CB(5)
Nick Watkins 6-1 203 CB Sr. [1] Rivals 4* [5.8] – 1Boundary
Shaun Crawford 5-9 175 CB Jr. [2] Rivals 4* [5.9]
Julian Love 5-11 190 CB So. [2] Rivals 4* [5.8] – 1Field
Donte Vaughn 6-2 209 CB So. [2] Rivals 4* [5.8] – 2Boundary
Troy Pride 5-11 183 CB So. [2] Rivals 4* [5.8] – 2Field

FS(3)
Nicco Fertitta 5-9 179 FS Jr. [1] Rivals 3* [5.6]
Ashton White 5-11 197 FS Jr. [2] Rivals 3* [5.6] – 2
Jalen Elliott 6-0 208 FS So. [2] Rivals 4* [5.8] – 1

SS(4)
Nick Coleman 6-0 187 SS Jr. [1] Rivals 3* [5.6] – 1
Devin Studstill 6-0 198 SS So. [2] Rivals 3* [5.7] – 2
Isaiah Robertson 6-2 208 SS Fr. [4] Rivals 4* [5.8]
Jordan Heath 6-2 200 SS Fr. [4] Rivals 3* [5.6]

K/P/ST(4)
Tyler Newsome 6-3 207 P Sr. [1] Rivals 3* [5.5]
Justin Yoon 5-10 195 K Jr. [1] Rivals 3* [5.5]
John Shannon 6-2 235 LS So. [3] Rivals 2* [5.2]
Jonathan Doerer 6-3 188 K Fr. [4] Rivals 2* [5.3]

OK: so what is your assessment re defensive recruiting?

JMO: defensive recruiting is at a level that in the major conferences it would be upper mid pack; about just below the top 3 teams.

 

[57Patrick]

I've got to agree with Pers on this one. Recruiting for the defense has been successful in some areas at times. However, the recruiting hasn't been top notch in all areas or consistently strong in any area. The biggest challenge appears to be the DL. Yes there is talent there but not enough. I can't remember which coach in the SEC made this statement, but he said to be elite, you need at least 10 great DL across the front four and preferably 12. ND isn't there but it appears they are making a great effort with the new staff.

 

[bizzybecknd]

Here are the top 25 D's in terms of total defense from last year. Just by looking at it, 8 teams recruited better than ND. Recruiting is huge but last year we absolutely had the horses to be a Top 25 defense and although there is a drop off this year, there is no question ND still can be a top defense with their talent.

1 Michigan 13 809 3403 4.21 20 22 261.8
2 Alabama 15 983 3927 3.99 20 21 261.8
3 Temple 14 852 3955 4.64 30 33 282.5
4 Army West Point 13 744 3789 5.09 31 33 291.5
5 Florida 13 816 3809 4.67 24 27 293.0
6 Ohio St. 13 882 3858 4.37 19 22 296.8
7 Wisconsin 14 857 4219 4.92 22 24 301.4
8 Clemson 15 1008 4672 4.63 33 34 311.5
9 Boston College 13 803 4084 5.09 43 44 314.2
10 LSU 12 793 3773 4.76 16 16 314.4
11 San Diego St. 14 925 4416 4.77 34 37 315.4
12 Washington 14 963 4436 4.61 29 30 316.9
13 Houston 13 866 4155 4.80 35 37 319.6
14 Louisville 13 894 4189 4.69 36 38 322.2
15 Southern Miss. 13 739 4223 5.71 47 50 324.8
16 Georgia 13 809 4257 5.26 38 41 327.5
17 Appalachian St. 13 859 4286 4.99 27 28 329.7
18 Virginia Tech 14 955 4770 4.99 40 41 340.7
19 Colorado 14 984 4795 4.87 32 36 342.5
20 Miami (FL) 13 945 4492 4.75 27 28 345.5
21 Minnesota 13 940 4534 4.82 34 35 348.8
22 Florida St. 13 861 4538 5.27 37 40 349.1
23 Iowa 13 893 4565 5.11 28 30 351.2
24 North Carolina St. 13 894 4586 5.13 34 34 352.8
25 Miami (OH) 13 876 4592 5.24

 

[Telx1]

Here are the top 25 D's in terms of total defense from last year. Just by looking at it, 8 teams recruited better than ND. Recruiting is huge but last year we absolutely had the horses to be a Top 25 defense and although there is a drop off this year, there is no question ND still can be a top defense with their talent.

1 Michigan 13 809 3403 4.21 20 22 261.8
2 Alabama 15 983 3927 3.99 20 21 261.8
3 Temple 14 852 3955 4.64 30 33 282.5
4 Army West Point 13 744 3789 5.09 31 33 291.5
5 Florida 13 816 3809 4.67 24 27 293.0
6 Ohio St. 13 882 3858 4.37 19 22 296.8
7 Wisconsin 14 857 4219 4.92 22 24 301.4
8 Clemson 15 1008 4672 4.63 33 34 311.5
9 Boston College 13 803 4084 5.09 43 44 314.2
10 LSU 12 793 3773 4.76 16 16 314.4
11 San Diego St. 14 925 4416 4.77 34 37 315.4
12 Washington 14 963 4436 4.61 29 30 316.9
13 Houston 13 866 4155 4.80 35 37 319.6
14 Louisville 13 894 4189 4.69 36 38 322.2
15 Southern Miss. 13 739 4223 5.71 47 50 324.8
16 Georgia 13 809 4257 5.26 38 41 327.5
17 Appalachian St. 13 859 4286 4.99 27 28 329.7
18 Virginia Tech 14 955 4770 4.99 40 41 340.7
19 Colorado 14 984 4795 4.87 32 36 342.5
20 Miami (FL) 13 945 4492 4.75 27 28 345.5
21 Minnesota 13 940 4534 4.82 34 35 348.8
22 Florida St. 13 861 4538 5.27 37 40 349.1
23 Iowa 13 893 4565 5.11 28 30 351.2
24 North Carolina St. 13 894 4586 5.13 34 34 352.8
25 Miami (OH) 13 876 4592 5.24

Thanks Bizzy....I've been of the opinion that a top 25 defense with our offense is adequate for getting us to playoff contention. This list suggests otherwise. Of course, there are other important defense metrics beyond total defense that factor into overall success, third down success and turnovers among the ones I pay attention to. Regardless, looks like a top ten total defense is really on the critical path to the playoffs.

 

[RTLH]

Honestly, a monkey could have gotten these results with this defense. A monkey could have guided this team to 4-8.

You don't have to have a great DC to get decent results. It's about Jimmys and Joe's at this level, not Xs and Os.

Once the kid arrives on campus the clock begins all over again. Grantef if you have four and five-star recruits you have a better pedigree to start with but it all comes down to coaching and teaching.
Bottom line that sucks.

 

[Zorich 88]

What hole are you talking about? And what do you mean that you are "forced" to play fast and aggressive? As opposed to the option of playing slow and passive? You gotta love the internet.

Every player is assigned a hole to hit in this defense. There is no read first then go. It is a defense where you have to trust that your teammates will do their assignment.

BVG defense was not fast or aggressive. It was a defense where you had to think and not react. It was a defense that had you break down in the hole and not run through the hole.

 

[FernCreekCat67]

Perse, I by and large agree with you. The defense looks like the depth chart for a 8-4 or 9-3 team in a P5 conference. If our offense maxes out, and we win the close games, it can get ND in playoff contention. Unfortunately, when ND plays great teams, it tends to get gashed and we look bad.

The key, though, has been the poor defensive coordinating and the especially horrendous player development.

Based on talent alone, Notre Dame should comfortably win six games this year, with six being up for grabs based on coaching, home-away, etc. ND should win at North Carolina with good coaching and S&C. The Georgia, Michigan State, USC, Miami and Stanford games will be must-watch TV and the true measure of Kelly's overhaul. I'm predicting 9-3 for the season.

I'll also say that, had Kelly made the staff changes a year ago, I think it would mean 1-2 extra victories for this team. It will take two full years for S&C to fully kick in, and the changes in defensive coordinating may not be enough by the Georgia and, maybe, Michigan State games.

 

[perseverare]

Perse, I by and large agree with you. The defense looks like the depth chart for a 8-4 or 9-3 team in a P5 conference. If our offense maxes out, and we win the close games, it can get ND in playoff contention. Unfortunately, when ND plays great teams, it tends to get gashed and we look bad.

The key, though, has been the poor defensive coordinating and the especially horrendous player development.

Based on talent alone, Notre Dame should comfortably win six games this year, with six being up for grabs based on coaching, home-away, etc. ND should win at North Carolina with good coaching and S&C. The Georgia, Michigan State, USC, Miami and Stanford games will be must-watch TV and the true measure of Kelly's overhaul. I'm predicting 9-3 for the season.

I'll also say that, had Kelly made the staff changes a year ago, I think it would mean 1-2 extra victories for this team. It will take two full years for S&C to fully kick in, and the changes in defensive coordinating may not be enough by the Georgia and, maybe, Michigan State games.

Fern

good read; thanks for the exchange.

 

[TOMMY_23]

What hole are you talking about? And what do you mean that you are "forced" to play fast and aggressive? As opposed to the option of playing slow and passive? You gotta love the internet.

Get me some H2O, water boooooooy.

 

[ndnd]

What hole are you talking about? And what do you mean that you are "forced" to play fast and aggressive? As opposed to the option of playing slow and passive? You gotta love the internet.

Get me some H2O, water boooooooy.

The simple explanation was so bad can be explained in three letters BVG
The worst defensive coach in Notre dame history next .
You will see a huge improvement next year in this defense and huge improvement the year after . As soon as BVG came on the stats went into the toilet

 

[perseverare]

^ that is like the CEO of a failed company blaming the employees for the demise!

rediculousness

 

[twalsh]

^ that is like the CEO of a failed company blaming the employees for the demise!

rediculousness

I don't recall Kelly ever blaming Van Gorder for anything. Unless of course you are suggesting that removing him was "blaming" him, which would mean that no assistant coach should ever be fired, no player should ever be taken out of the lineup, lest that be construed as the head coaching blaming them for failure..