Last night I was bored so I ventured to YouTube to watch the MSU game from last year, and boy if we don't make a 180 improvement fundamentally on D... First glaring thing I noticed (and no im not a hater) Nyles Morgan may have played the worst game I have ever seen from a linebacker. Not exaggerating one bit. #2 our Rover Drue Tranquill struggles with open field tackling very badly. This will be key at this position. #3 Studstill took awful angles and tries to ankle tackle everybody, even the slow QB. Sadly, BVG may have done too much damage, and it may take a miracle for Elko to turn it around. I was optimistic about the d until I watched that game and realized power running was Elko's weakness at Wake...
Defensive Woes
- Thread starter NDIRISH53
- Start date
I think BVG's defense did more harm than good -- but, I think Elko's defense will be much better than what people think. Now, that being said, ND is not going to pitch shutout after shutout, but, I think there will be marked improvement. Tranquil plays well close to the lone (see Ga Tech and Navy games). I think BVG's defense had these guys thinking so much that they played very slow -- and it showed. Also -- BVG spent little time on fundamentals during practice -- and that showed as well (you comment about Morgan and Studstill).
An ESPN analyst picks ND over Georgia. But i dont see how our front 6 is going to stop the Georgia running game. Elko might be a great coach but does he have the material to work with when playing the top 15 teams?
Elko looks like the real deal at DC. But it will take him some time and recruits to get the defense dependable.
The best plan is only as good as the personnel executing it.
The best plan is only as good as the personnel executing it.
Georgia hasn't shown that they're anything special running the ball, at all.
Quite the contrary, really.
In 2016, UGA was 50th nationally in rushing yards per game, averaging ~190 yards/game.
Georgia broke 200 yards rushing 7 times in 2016......6 of those were against rushing defenses ranked MUCH worse than ND's
(and we're having a meltdown about how terrible our rush defense was)
And now, Georgia is replacing 3-4 of it's OL starters with Frosh or JUCO's, and we play them Week 1.
Georgia has some talent at RB, with Chubb and Michel, but they haven't shown that they can actually run the ball at a high level.
UGA has recruited well under Smart. I expect their offense to play well experienced or not. I think our offense has to put a lot of points on the board against any of the top notch teams in order to win. UGA returns 10 defensive players. Both coaches will be under pressure to prove to their fan base that they can win at the highest level.
They've recruited well for 1 year? You realize that they've been recruiting well for decades, right? Their recent recruiting should have little to no impact on their overall roster talent.
Additionally, there isn't a great reason to believe their offense will suddenly be great...especially with the logic you're applying to our defense.
Under Smart in 2016, UGA's offensive stats were:
Scoring Offense - 102nd
Total Offense - 87th
Passing Offense - 97th
Rushing Offense - 50th
Those are almost all worse than the correllated stat for ND's defense in 2016
In fact, a huge part of why the won as many games as they did last year was a really good turnover margin
(which is typically difficult to duplicate)
Georgia may have the most talented defense ND plays all year and that includes USC. GA has recruited well for many years, not just one. They return a very good defense. Offensively they struggled because of poor QB play, but Chubb is the real deal. It seems to me ND would need to incorporate the LSU strategy offensively, but that isn't the style they are installing.
UGA's struggles were partly on having a young QB, who just didn't look consistently ready for big-time ball.
But worse for them, imo, was an OL that just got abused by most competitent opponents.
And the major issue for UGA in that regard is what while their OL will be more "talented" overall in 2017......it's going to be ridiculously young an inexperienced.
I would expect "young" QB and OL play to be a major limiting factor for the UGA offense in 2017
I agree that their defense is very, very talented. Though it will be negatively impacted if their best DL (Trenton Thompson) isn't able to return to school for next semester.
Kelly was here and the admissions standards were the same for 4-straight Top25 defenses, including the #2 scoring defense in CFB.
Imo, the major defensive woes have had FAR more to do with the scheme and DC than the available talent or HC
Arguing that Kelly's defenses can only be similar to those we saw under VanGorder just ignores far too many facts
Call it heresy but i dont think BVG was as bad as most people think as a coach just a poor recruiter. When Day and Jaylon Smith were on the same D we did pretty well against top opponents. Other than those 2, who else talent wise went to the NFL in the first 4 rounds? I totally acknowledge poor tackling etc but i really dont think our defensive talent is anywhere close to championship level. The only real upgrades have been in the secondary. Nyles Morgan can be a big time player but our front 6 is either unproven or not the same talent level as a Holtz or Diaco defense.
A lot of the recruits that made up the 2012 defense, the last truly good defense, were Weis recruits.
The 2017 defensive line is going to get abused this year. That's a fact. A ball control game plan similar to the bowl game versus LSU would be a great strategy this season.
Outside of a lucky run in 2011 with Lynch and Tuitt I don't see Kelly recruiting big time talent on D. Maybe he's not allowed to by the ND admin.
What year under Van Gorder did we have a good defense?
As for NFL talent:
Russell was a 3rd Rounder
Jarron Jones will be a 4th/5th Rounder
Morgan will be an NFL Draft pick
Rochell is a 7th/UFA type
Luke will also be a 7th/UFA
And while Okwara was an UFA, he started games for the Giants as a rookie
Riggs was also a UFA that made an NFL roster
And that's other than Jaylon Smith and Sheldon Day
I'm not saying that this roster is as talented as Alabama's, but it's had enough talent on defense to be pretty good
Why does it matter who recruited them?
According to both class rank, CFB production, NFL Draft picks...Kelly has recruited better defensive players than Weis did.
(and obviously done a FAR better job developing them --> Harrison Smith!!)
Just look at the Top250 Defensive Players Kelly has Recruited
- 5* Jaylon Smith
- 5* Stephon Tuitt
- 5* Dealin Hayes
- 5* Aaron Lynch
- 5* Max Redfield
- 5* Ishaq Williams
- Top100 Sheldon Day
- Top100 Nyles Morgan
- Top100 Shaun Crawford
- Top100 Tevon Coney
- Top150 Isaac Rochell
- Top150 Jerry Tillery
- Top150 Doug Randolph
- Top150 Cole Luke
- Top150 Elijah Shumate
- Top150 KeVarie Russell
- Top250 Jarron Jones
- Top250 Jay Hayes
- Top250 Josh Barajas
- Top250 Nick Watkins
- Top250 Asmar Bilal
- Top250 Kahlid Kareem
- 4* James Onwualu
- 4* Julian Okwara
- 4* Julian Love
- 4* Jalen Elliott
- 4* DJ Morgan
- 4* Donte Vaughn
- 4* Troy Pride
And that's just the 4* Defensive Recruits between 2012-2016......
There has been plent of talent for this defense to be good. The coaching (largely by the DC, though also by Kelly) has been the major issue...but scheme and player development
The above argument is flawed because not all of the listed players played at the same time. Also, Diaco was the key recruiter not BVG or Kelly for some of the top players like Tuitt, Williams, Redfield etc. Some of the current players mentioned above are unproven or their accomplishments have been minimal. The current talent level on D is not elite and there is basically little depth. Hopefully some players will emerge this season but its too early to tell.
Most of this is incorrect.
1. Diaco was not much of a recruiter. For example, the fame "4am Doorstep Recruitment" of Ishaq Williams was one of his very few impacts in recruiting.
2. Players like Tuitt, Redfield, etc. were mainly recruited by position coaches in conjunction with Kelly, Martin, etc.
3. Most of these players overlapped, at least for some amount of time.
4. The "talent" on defense, as determined simply by recruiting rankings (which is an insufficient way to do it), while not "Elite"....is certainly pretty good. More than enough talent is available to be a good defense, if it's coached, developed, and deployed correctly.
Try not to be wrong quite so often.
Look more closely at the top of that list. And you need to recognize that the other teams are recruiting also.
Aside from Smith, productivity?
I've never claimed that ND has the most talented defense in CFB, on the contrary, I've pointed out that the talent is NOT elite.....but that it is good.
(so it doesn't matter how 5-10 other teams are recruiting)
Production from the top of the list? Seriously?
- Jaylon Smith was the best LB in CFB, one of the best overall players in CFB, and would have been a Top10 pick if not for a terrible injury
- Tuitt had 20+ sacks in 2 years...at an interior DL position. He nearly broke the ND single season sack record while playing what was basically at run-oriented DT position
- Dealin Hayes has only played a Frosh season at ND so far (ie. INCOMPLETE)
- Lynch was a Frosh All-American during his only season at ND
- Ishaq and Redfield were "busts", although Redfield did play a lot for football for ND
Again, ND needs to do a better job coaching, developing, and deploying it's talent. Especially on defense.
But these arguments that the talent isn't there simply are not founded in facts
Jaylon was the most talented LB, but the ND defense failed to utilize his unlimited talents
Tuitt it could be said had 1-11/2 really elite seasons. The injury and conditioning limited his play.
Lynch was Part time and 1 yr n out
Ishaq..We know the story
Redfield...We know the story
The other current names, are still 'wait n see' in actual key roles.
But the guys not on your list were more the roster shortcomings. More defensive top to near elite players were and still are needed.
Tuitt it could be said had 1-11/2 really elite seasons. The injury and conditioning limited his play.
Lynch was Part time and 1 yr n out
Ishaq..We know the story
Redfield...We know the story
The other current names, are still 'wait n see' in actual key roles.
But the guys not on your list were more the roster shortcomings. More defensive top to near elite players were and still are needed.
Maybe it's just more proof Kelly is in over his head?
The defense has been pretty miserable for a while now. You listed the talent, which will never rival the big boys in recruiting, but it's enough to be competitive on that side of the ball.
To me it's just more proof of why Kelly shouldn't be the coach here. He essentially kept VanGorder on for three years. Whyyyyyyyyyyy?
Jaylon won the Butkus, meaning he was not only the most talented LB, but also the best on the field.
Again, you're agreeing with me that he (and the rest of ND's talent) needs to be coached and deployed better.....but the talent is there.
Again, Tuitt could have been deployed better...but the talent was obviously there, as was the produciton.
So agian....you're agreeing with me
We could keep going, but it's clear I've made my point
The talent is there on defense (and it has been there all along)
We need better player develop and MUCH better scheme/deployment
If you want to go the route of "It's Kelly's fault because Van Gorder's issues ultimately rest with Kelly" that's fine.
However, it really has little or nothing to do with Kelly's coaching, nor that the substitution of Elko for Van Gorder won't return the defense to where it was (or better) as under Kelly/Diaco.
So again, we may actually agree....and you're just adding in some Kelly-hate for flavoring
So you're saying that completely unrelated points, that just happened to share 1 similar quote.....are no comparable?
Side note: biggest fixable thing I noticed while watching the defense extensively is nyles Morgan gaining more body control when dissecting the run. He wastes a lot of movement from what I can tell vs when I watched Reuben foster from bama. Clark Lea may be able to help this
The seal of approval after one Spring from a guy who knows nothing about football. That should give everyone lots of optimism. Weren't you the genius pissing and moaning about Diaco's Vanilla Schemes and all warm and fuzzy about BVG?
Freaking cartoon character.
Years ago there was a poster on this site whose name escapes me right now. He pointed out that several defensive 4 stars we got didnt have elite ratings and they were plan B's for some of the Bamas, OSU's etc. A lot of posters also seem to forget that between injuries, transfers and off field problems there has been little to no depth on D. BVG had his issues but over an 11 game season playing a tough schedule our D could really use 1 or 2 impact players like Day or Smith. Its the impact players that can turn a game. I hope some of the incoming freshman blossom early.
hoop
there are so many 4* prospects and a wide rating range within the 4* catagory. All 4 stars are not alike nor equal.
there are so many 4* prospects and a wide rating range within the 4* catagory. All 4 stars are not alike nor equal.
BVG was a disaster all across the board. Couldn't recruit or communicate and his scheme was a disaster.
If Elko can get the guys playing hard and playing fundamentally sound, the defense will be good.
All American's like Smith and Day help very defense, including NFL defenses. Pointing out that this defense could benefit from players like them is akin to pointing out that water is always wet.
Some of they guys we've landed are definitely "Plan B's" for Bama, but that doesn't mean they're not talented.
Heck, a lot of the guys Bama has won NC's with were "Plan B's" for Bama
I'm not sure how you're attempting to use these truisms to debate the reality that there is enough talent on the ND defense in order for it to be good, if it's coached, developed, and deployed correctly.
What are you actually trying to say?
The whole matter is resolved by setting or defining 'good'. What the expectations in terms of W/L record and post season?
That type of thinking is foolish, as it's predicated on knowledge you can't have
(who is injured, who on our opponents is injured, etc.)
The "good" expectation that's appropriate here is what amount of quality you're expecting to see from the defense, especially when it's healthy.
Expectations are usually different from actual. You based your expectations on 'best guess'.
In this case what would be expectations based upon factoring in the things you know and then additional points you mention and some of the others to be considered? If the defensive recruiting has been generally at a top 20 - 25 level for a period of 3-4 recruiting session, then my expectations would be that the performance will reflect that.
Recheck the defensive classes for 2013, 2014 and 2015.
In this case what would be expectations based upon factoring in the things you know and then additional points you mention and some of the others to be considered? If the defensive recruiting has been generally at a top 20 - 25 level for a period of 3-4 recruiting session, then my expectations would be that the performance will reflect that.
Recheck the defensive classes for 2013, 2014 and 2015.
I would agree that the talent is present for a Top25 defense.
However, the development has been FAR below that, as has the deployment/scheme.
As the development and scheme catches up to the talent (if this happens), we should see the production reach where it should be
This is what we saw under Diaco/Kelly, and hopefully what we'll see under Elko/Kelly
Latest posts
-
Recruiting Teams not giving up on Notre Dame commit Chaston Smith- Latest: Tyler James
-
