BVG vs Diaco Scheme Wise.

[FLballcoach1]

The schemes run by these two coaches are bi polar opposites. It was just not a,change of Coordinators but a complete change of philosophy on how to play defense.

Diaco- wanted bigger athletes, played 2 gap up front, limited fronts, limited blitzing, limited coverages, limited substitutions kept both safeties deep 80% of the time, was willing to surrender yards and 1st downs but got stingy in the Red Zone. As,a result of the zone pass defense you create more interceptions because your eyes stay on the QB the whole time.

BVG- needs quicker athletes, plays one gap up front; multiple fronts, multiple coverages, blitzes often, uses multiple substitution packages, spins down his safeties often and does not want to surrender any yards or first downs. As a result of all the man for man defense and blitzing, you should get more tackles for loss but fewer turnovers.

Diaco was criticized and accused of being vanilla, bend but don't break and too passive.

BVG- is being criticized because the defense breaks down and gives up tons of explosion plays.

Truthfully the DC's that can "blend" those two philosophies with good players have produced the best defenses. Kirby Smart, Luke Fickell/Chris Ash, Vic Fangio, Jeremy Pruitt, John Chavis, Pat Narduzzi and Dave Arranda.

ND has to get back to being more proficient at "playing it safe".

 

[FightingIrish44]

While I'd prefer the defense to simplify and be less aggressive (my philosophy is pretty much the same philosophy as Diaco's -- just wouldn't want to two gap at the high school level), I don't think it's necessary for ND to become good on defense again. I think the bottom line is the lack of execution and poor fundamentals.

ND's base coverage, and its accompanying formational checks, had the DB's keying the receivers and TE's under Diaco. ND still plays that coverage as their base coverage. They just adjust their alignments rather than modify the coverage. And then they blitz a lot more.

Yes, under Diaco, ND was playing more hard Cover 2 in passing downs allowing for more eyes on the QB. I still think its just the lack of fundamentals that's killing ND rather than their philosophy not being balanced. The Diaco defenses probably had the offense in more 3rd and longs and they were just better prepared which allowed for more takeaways and just getting off the field altogether.

 

[IrishHerb]

Different schemes, definitely. But what seems to hurt ND is a lack of tackling fundamentals. Seems like I've seen a lot of arm tackling these past couple of years. Also when players tackle they often bounce off or completely whiff. Something just seems to be lacking.

 

[cgvr]

While I'd prefer the defense to simplify and be less aggressive (my philosophy is pretty much the same philosophy as Diaco's -- just wouldn't want to two gap at the high school level), I don't think it's necessary for ND to become good on defense again. I think the bottom line is the lack of execution and poor fundamentals.

ND's base coverage, and its accompanying formational checks, had the DB's keying the receivers and TE's under Diaco. ND still plays that coverage as their base coverage. They just adjust their alignments rather than modify the coverage. And then they blitz a lot more.

Yes, under Diaco, ND was playing more hard Cover 2 in passing downs allowing for more eyes on the QB. I still think its just the lack of fundamentals that's killing ND rather than their philosophy not being balanced. The Diaco defenses probably had the offense in more 3rd and longs and they were just better prepared which allowed for more takeaways and just getting off the field altogether.

"I don't think it's necessary for ND to become good on defense again." Huh?

 

[FightingIrish44]

"I don't think it's necessary for ND to become good on defense again." Huh?

They don't have an inherent need to simplify the defense and be less aggressive. They just need to execute better. When I say less aggressive, I'm talking overall philosophy. Less blitzing, essentially. Thought that would be obvious when posting.

 

[cgvr]

They don't have an inherent need to simplify the defense and be less aggressive. They just need to execute better. When I say less aggressive, I'm talking overall philosophy. Less blitzing, essentially. Thought that would be obvious when posting.

The problem is that it's hard to execute what they don't understand. Apparently, Schmidt was the most advanced in understanding the philosophy. That's a big issue especially when you have very intelligent players....

 

[theskibro]

Excuses. Under any scheme players play. I will take aggressive play any day over Diaco. Players have been restricted imo from using instincts in both schemes.

 

[FightingIrish44]

The problem is that it's hard to execute what they don't understand. Apparently, Schmidt was the most advanced in understanding the philosophy. That's a big issue especially when you have very intelligent players....

It is hard to execute what one doesn't understand, but I think they understand it, its just when they're in live game situations, they mess up.

I don't buy the whole bit about Schmidt being the only one who get the guys lined up. It really shouldn't be that hard to get lined up. I think the coaches just thought he was a solid player who gave them the best chance to win. Its kind of difficult to bench a captain, especially when the coaches think the guy behind him is of similar ability.

What I was trying to say was that any particular team can have any philosophy they want. Ultra conservative or ultra aggressive. No philosophy is inherently better than another. It comes down to execution.

Unfortunately, I don't think the ND coaches can get the players to execute being such a multiple defense evidenced by all of the busted coverages. The only thing I can think of is that being multiple, the coaches believed, gave them the best chance to win. The play on the field has me thinking they need to dumb it down some. Get really good at a couple of things rather than being "okay" at a bunch. I don't know. Just bad defensive play.

 

[FightingIrish44]

Excuses. Under any scheme players play. I will take aggressive play any day over Diaco. Players have been restricted imo from using instincts in both schemes.

What do you mean by aggressive play? How were the players restricted from using insticts in either scheme, especially Diaco's?

 

[deadirishpoet]

What do you mean by aggressive play? How were the players restricted from using insticts in either scheme, especially Diaco's?

When I hear of aggressive play on defense at Notre Dame I think of Harrison Smith

 

[deadirishpoet]

Excuses. Under any scheme players play. I will take aggressive play any day over Diaco. Players have been restricted imo from using instincts in both schemes.

2012 defensive numbers were nice

 

[Tru2Irish]

Excuses. Under any scheme players play. I will take aggressive play any day over Diaco. Players have been restricted imo from using instincts in both schemes.

Either the players didn't execute plays or scheme too hard to initiate for players. I don'tbendbut don't break but there has to be a happy medium for players to grasp schemes. Right though. One of the poorest tackling units I've witnessed has happened in the last 2 seasons. Evidentually, fundamentals are on back burner.

 

[cgvr]

It is hard to execute what one doesn't understand, but I think they understand it, its just when they're in live game situations, they mess up.

I don't buy the whole bit about Schmidt being the only one who get the guys lined up. It really shouldn't be that hard to get lined up. I think the coaches just thought he was a solid player who gave them the best chance to win. Its kind of difficult to bench a captain, especially when the coaches think the guy behind him is of similar ability.

What I was trying to say was that any particular team can have any philosophy they want. Ultra conservative or ultra aggressive. No philosophy is inherently better than another. It comes down to execution.

Unfortunately, I don't think the ND coaches can get the players to execute being such a multiple defense evidenced by all of the busted coverages. The only thing I can think of is that being multiple, the coaches believed, gave them the best chance to win. The play on the field has me thinking they need to dumb it down some. Get really good at a couple of things rather than being "okay" at a bunch. I don't know. Just bad defensive play.

I think it's a similar situation to what southern cal experienced with monte kiffin. The scheme may be too sophisticated for kids coming out of HS. If everyone's not on the same page it falls apart. I still can't figure out why our safeties had dropped into FG range on Stanford's last drive pre snap?

We gave that one away.... it was a huge disaster.....

 

[zonairish]

to me the scheme does not matter there are pluses and minuses to both. It comes down to recruiting and teaching. in every recruitment cycle we need top tier 4-5 star DE or DT's at least 2 per cycle. Our D does not have to be as good as OSU or Bama but close. We normally recruit well on the offense. if we do that we will be in conversation every year, as far BVG I dunno if he is a good teacher or recruiter. i/ think 1 more year will tell

 

[Telx1]

Scheme absolutely does matter, but in the context of talent and abilities. For example, Navy runs their triple option offense largely because it's a good match for the size and speed and athletic abilities of the kind of talent they can attract. BVG's scheme is obviously too complicated for student athletes, and better suited for full time professionals. We were supposed to see a more simplified version this year than last, but that was not apparent. BVG either needs to come up with a modified scheme the players can execute, or he needs to be replaced. This looms as one of Kelly's most critical decisions of his tenure.

 

[zonairish]

Scheme absolutely does matter, but in the context of talent and abilities. For example, Navy runs their triple option offense largely because it's a good match for the size and speed and athletic abilities of the kind of talent they can attract. BVG's scheme is obviously too complicated for student athletes, and better suited for full time professionals. We were supposed to see a more simplified version this year than last, but that was not apparent. BVG either needs to come up with a modified scheme the players can execute, or he needs to be replaced. This looms as one of Kelly's most critical decisions of his tenure.

no matter what the scheme is you need good recruits to run it. As far as BVG scheme being complicated. what is complicated about it? I want to understand.

 

[deadirishpoet]

I think it's a similar situation to what southern cal experienced with monte kiffin. The scheme may be too sophisticated for kids coming out of HS. If everyone's not on the same page it falls apart. I still can't figure out why our safeties had dropped into FG range on Stanford's last drive pre snap?

We gave that one away.... it was a huge disaster.....

I think it's a tall order to ask any defense to prevent Stanford from getting into field goal range with that offense

 

[cgvr]

no matter what the scheme is you need good recruits to run it. As far as BVG scheme being complicated. what is complicated about it? I want to understand.

Here is a link to a decent article.

"Can Notre Dame's players handle the adjustment from one scheme to another that's both wildly different and complex? It's not the NFL, where players have the time and financial incentive to watch endless film and constantly meet with coaches on their assignments."

"Perhaps the most surprising and potentially important fit is former walk-on linebacker Joe Schmidt. He's evidently been a guy who "can't come off the field" due to his mastery of the complex defense."

"In the long run, whether or not the new Irish defense becomes the monster-hunting unit VanGorder envisions or if it becomes overwhelmed by the forces of darkness will largely depend on whether Notre Dame football players are as smart as their fans regularly insist they are. If so, Notre Dame will maintain its status as a contender in the Playoff era."

http://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2014/5/30/5757590/notre-dame-2014-defense-brian-vangorder

 

[cgvr]

I think it's a tall order to ask any defense to prevent Stanford from getting into field goal range with that offense

Especially when we were giving it away... rewatch the pass to Cajuste. Plus, one of our guys was shadowing Hogan off the line instead of attacking him making it 10 versus 11....

 

[Telx1]

http://bills.buffalonews.com/2015/12/23/polian-offers-his-ideas-on-fixing-bills/

Zonairish.... Provided this link for context. BVG was Ryan's linebacker coach for a year before coming to ND. Not sure how much of Ryan's philosophy and scheme is inherent in BVG's thinking, but you can't help but think about ND and BVG when you read Polian's critique.

Think also back to the Fiesta Bowl halftime interview with Kelly as they were headed to the locker room. He was very clear in stating that the defense was having problems because players were too often out of position and not lined up right, etc... I don't even begin to understand all the complexity of BVG's scheme, but I've come to the opinion that the two year sample suggests it's not working at the college level?

 

[deadirishpoet]

Especially when we were giving it away... rewatch the pass to Cajuste. Plus, one of our guys was shadowing Hogan off the line instead of attacking him making it 10 versus 11....

I have rewatch the game several times brother. The ending was painful to watch agreed.

 

[cgvr]

I have rewatch the game several times brother. The ending was painful to watch agreed.

I am antiprevent in that situation. Man up, keep your safeties on high alert, attack Hogan, and knock him on his ass.... Don't give him time, space, anything..... Our safeties were on the 30-31after gaining 26?27? so were they.... We worked so darn hard, had it and then paved a path for them.....

 

[zonairish]

Here is a link to a decent article.

"Can Notre Dame's players handle the adjustment from one scheme to another that's both wildly different and complex? It's not the NFL, where players have the time and financial incentive to watch endless film and constantly meet with coaches on their assignments."

"Perhaps the most surprising and potentially important fit is former walk-on linebacker Joe Schmidt. He's evidently been a guy who "can't come off the field" due to his mastery of the complex defense."

"In the long run, whether or not the new Irish defense becomes the monster-hunting unit VanGorder envisions or if it becomes overwhelmed by the forces of darkness will largely depend on whether Notre Dame football players are as smart as their fans regularly insist they are. If so, Notre Dame will maintain its status as a contender in the Playoff era."

http://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2014/5/30/5757590/notre-dame-2014-defense-brian-vangorder

Well cgvr you are being nice. I appreciate the info. In my quick read of the article it comes down to having the horse to play this D. Otherwise it appears it may not be a good fit for any college team. That said a watered down version may be what we need

 

[deadirishpoet]

http://bills.buffalonews.com/2015/12/23/polian-offers-his-ideas-on-fixing-bills/

Zonairish.... Provided this link for context. BVG was Ryan's linebacker coach for a year before coming to ND. Not sure how much of Ryan's philosophy and scheme is inherent in BVG's thinking, but you can't help but think about ND and BVG when you read Polian's critique.

Think also back to the Fiesta Bowl halftime interview with Kelly as they were headed to the locker room. He was very clear in stating that the defense was having problems because players were too often out of position and not lined up right, etc... I don't even begin to understand all the complexity of BVG's scheme, but I've come to the opinion that the two year sample suggests it's not working at the college level?

I thought for the most part the second half adjustments work

 

[zonairish]

http://bills.buffalonews.com/2015/12/23/polian-offers-his-ideas-on-fixing-bills/

Zonairish.... Provided this link for context. BVG was Ryan's linebacker coach for a year before coming to ND. Not sure how much of Ryan's philosophy and scheme is inherent in BVG's thinking, but you can't help but think about ND and BVG when you read Polian's critique.

Think also back to the Fiesta Bowl halftime interview with Kelly as they were headed to the locker room. He was very clear in stating that the defense was having problems because players were too often out of position and not lined up right, etc... I don't even begin to understand all the complexity of BVG's scheme, but I've come to the opinion that the two year sample suggests it's not working at the college level?

Telx1,


Thank you for the article. I thought the original critique of Diaco D was you need a large athletec nose guard where there is not a lot to chose from in the high school ranks, Now it appears you need to large athletic D tackles which there are not a lot off. And As Polian (sp) the players have nothing to build on week to week because of the changes week to week. After looking at the article cvgr posted and it shows the complexity there will be changes to the D based on kelly's halftime interview. I was @ the game and did not see the interview.

 

[Telx1]

Zonairish... Wish I had missed the interview for being at the game as well. Good for you. Looked on TV like the Irish faithful were outnumbered. Was that the case?

 

[zonairish]

Zonairish... Wish I had missed the interview for being at the game as well. Good for you. Looked on TV like the Irish faithful were outnumbered. Was that the case?

I would say we were outnumbered (not a lot) but the TV overwhelmingly focused in on OSU fans not sure why;

 

[FightingIrish44]

no matter what the scheme is you need good recruits to run it. As far as BVG scheme being complicated. what is complicated about it? I want to understand.

I would say the multitude of coverages and alignments they use. Definitely more than the first three years of Diaco. Its really not that complicated when your drawing it out on paper, but that's obviously different when you're in live action.

Some of the zone blitzes BVG use are more complex than your typical zone blitzes in that, pre-snap, the two linemen aligned on the right side, for instance, will drop off and the two linemen to the left side will replace the right side. Two blitzers replace the left side and then its still only a four man rush. Its 100% sound. It just requires more teaching. You don't see that as much on the college level.

Even in a basic scheme like Diaco's, there are still checks to be made, but it was simple because they didn't align their players strong/weak. It was to the short side/wide side of the field. Not a lot of movement necessary.

Let me know if you have any question and I can explain it better.

 

[zonairish]

I would say the multitude of coverages and alignments they use. Definitely more than the first three years of Diaco. Its really not that complicated when your drawing it out on paper, but that's obviously different when you're in live action.

Some of the zone blitzes BVG use are more complex than your typical zone blitzes in that, pre-snap, the two linemen aligned on the right side, for instance, will drop off and the two linemen to the left side will replace the right side. Two blitzers replace the left side and then its still only a four man rush. Its 100% sound. It just requires more teaching. You don't see that as much on the college level.

Even in a basic scheme like Diaco's, there are still checks to be made, but it was simple because they didn't align their players strong/weak. It was to the short side/wide side of the field. Not a lot of movement necessary.

Let me know if you have any question and I can explain it better.

thank you will do

 

[cgvr]

Well cgvr you are being nice. I appreciate the info. In my quick read of the article it comes down to having the horse to play this D. Otherwise it appears it may not be a good fit for any college team. That said a watered down version may be what we need

Same thing happened with kiffin's dad did at southern cal.....

It's overkill.

We're not facing the Pats....

#92 in interceptions gained and # 114 in fumbles gained is really bad....

 

[justacollegefan]

2012 defensive numbers were nice

More talent on his defense and less injuries... also makes a difference.