2012 vs. 2017

[stu4don]

I'd be interested to hear some opinions on this. I was going to do a position by position analysis. But there is really not much of a comparison right now. The 2012 team was full of damn good senior talent who went on to play on Sundays: Tuitt, Eifert, Riddick, Manti, Martin, Watt (retired this year), Farley, TJ Jones. And some damn good players who haven't really stuck in the NFL Kapron Lewis-Moore, Cierre Wood, Braxton Cave, Lewis Nix, Cave, Golson. Solid young backups...Day, Martin, Stanley.

I fully expect many of our current lineup to go on to the NFL but it is a much younger team.

Despite that, our current team seems to be very physical (2013 Natty team really got pushed around by an Alabama team that many think is the best of the past ten years.)

I think Kelly did a bad job preparing them for that game (the Manti nonsense didn't help) -- we will be better prepared for a bowl game this year.

Thank you, Scott Ballis -- he will know how to keep them sharp and ready after the regular season ends!!! (Imagine if he had been the S&C guy in 2012!)

The current O-Line seems as good and probably better (Mustipher is better than Cave, Nelson is better than Watt, but Z. Martin is better than McQ (but not by that much), and I like the current right side better than Golic and Lombard. Josh Adams may be the best back I've seen in my time at ND -- and I was at ND with Vegus F and Jerome H, watched Bettis and Brooks, Denson, et. al. I also believe that Wimbush (doesn't turn the ball over) is better now than Golson was in his first season. Receivers -- I would give the nod to 2012 with TJ, Eifert, Daniels, Goodman and Toma but not by much (I actually think this group has more potential talent -- except for Eifert.)

I'll leave it to someone else to do the defense. I do think the current group is deeper and more athletic across the board (especially CBs and Safeties). There is no Manti (but damn, we didn't have a Tevon Coney to back up Manti in 2012! I liked Carlo, Fox, Shembo and Spond, but Coney is playing like an Alabama LB.

Thoughts?

 

[D_Master]

i'll keep it short and concise, that team had more "star power" (Manti, Tuitt, Nix, Eifert, Martin) but this team just seems to play more physical and imposes its will on teams. Maybe one day we'll look back on this team and realize we had a ton of NFL talent, but right now there's just alot of potential. That year we were winning games but just finding a way, probably should've lost a couple.

 

[twalsh]

If we get that far you can be confident that Kelly will take a much different approach. We won't go six weeks without live tackling again. Ever.

 

[SiberianKnightmare]

Chip Long is the difference. Kelly isn't the offensive genius he thinks he is. Long is. And no one was stopping that Alabama offense that year. Not with a month to prepare. No one.

 

[lyonhawk]

2017 is a far more complete team. 2012 had an elite defense and completely relied on it to carry us all season. We had a lot of talent on offense, but it fit the old offensive style better. Our line, receivers, and backs were suited for a spread offense, but we didn't have a QB to run it at the time.

The 2017 D doesn't get enough credit for how good it is. According to ESPN FPI, we have the 5th best D in the country. They're not getting the same recognition 2012 did because we're not reliant on them to win. This year, the offensive personnel fits a power game a lot better. The O-Line is mauling people and Josh Adams punishes defenses and wears them down much more than Cierre Wood or Theo Riddick did.

 

[SiberianKnightmare]

Our running game wears defenses down. Look what we did to the supposed monster d line NCSU had. Just kept banging them until they quit. This team will run all over any team that doesn't have great DEPTH on the dline. That's why UGA stopped us. Depth, not just first team talent. It's why we would struggle to run over Bama & Clemson.

 

[faviles15]

I have such an affinity for that 2012 team because they reached the natty but I do think this is a more complete team. I think this offense can win a game and I wasn’t as confident with our 2012 team even with Theo and company (talented/gritty bunch). While 2012 had star power I do think this group is playing great as a unit and coached as well. The 2012 D was a bend not break group and this one is coached much more aggressively. Different styles but effective...if we get to the final 4 I would give the edge to this group.

 

[gautrp]

I'd be interested to hear some opinions on this. I was going to do a position by position analysis. But there is really not much of a comparison right now. The 2012 team was full of damn good senior talent who went on to play on Sundays: Tuitt, Eifert, Riddick, Manti, Martin, Watt (retired this year), Farley, TJ Jones. And some damn good players who haven't really stuck in the NFL Kapron Lewis-Moore, Cierre Wood, Braxton Cave, Lewis Nix, Cave, Golson. Solid young backups...Day, Martin, Stanley.

I fully expect many of our current lineup to go on to the NFL but it is a much younger team.

Despite that, our current team seems to be very physical (2013 Natty team really got pushed around by an Alabama team that many think is the best of the past ten years.)

I think Kelly did a bad job preparing them for that game (the Manti nonsense didn't help) -- we will be better prepared for a bowl game this year.

Thank you, Scott Ballis -- he will know how to keep them sharp and ready after the regular season ends!!! (Imagine if he had been the S&C guy in 2012!)

The current O-Line seems as good and probably better (Mustipher is better than Cave, Nelson is better than Watt, but Z. Martin is better than McQ (but not by that much), and I like the current right side better than Golic and Lombard. Josh Adams may be the best back I've seen in my time at ND -- and I was at ND with Vegus F and Jerome H, watched Bettis and Brooks, Denson, et. al. I also believe that Wimbush (doesn't turn the ball over) is better now than Golson was in his first season. Receivers -- I would give the nod to 2012 with TJ, Eifert, Daniels, Goodman and Toma but not by much (I actually think this group has more potential talent -- except for Eifert.)

I'll leave it to someone else to do the defense. I do think the current group is deeper and more athletic across the board (especially CBs and Safeties). There is no Manti (but damn, we didn't have a Tevon Coney to back up Manti in 2012! I liked Carlo, Fox, Shembo and Spond, but Coney is playing like an Alabama LB.

Thoughts?

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

Our running game wears defenses down. Look what we did to the supposed monster d line NCSU had. Just kept banging them until they quit. This team will run all over any team that doesn't have great DEPTH on the dline. That's why UGA stopped us. Depth, not just first team talent. It's why we would struggle to run over Bama & Clemson.

You said it right. "supposedly good defense." Let's see what Clemson does to them. South Carolina beat them.

 

[SiberianKnightmare]

I think their first team d line is really good. Everybody after those first few guys is junk.

 

[HRC08]

If we get that far you can be confident that Kelly will take a much different approach. We won't go six weeks without live tackling again. Ever.

That was insane.

 

[notredamerises23]

2012 just wasn’t as good and didn’t control games the way this team does. There were closer games in which we escaped.

2012 was 25th in offensive efficiency, about 22nd before the Alabama game. It was 10th in defensive efficiency, 7th before the final game with Alabama.

2017 is 8th in offense and 5th in defense. 4 tough games left, but I think we’ll be stronger in both categories at the end of those games.

 

[NotreDomer1]

Losing Kapron Lewis-Moore early in the 2013 Title game hurt us very badly. Kelly's blunder was definitely going that long without tackling. We missed more tackles in that game than we did that entire year I believe. Manti, IIRC, had two missed tackles all year. He missed a ton of tackles that game.

 

[HRC08]

Chip Long is the difference. Kelly isn't the offensive genius he thinks he is. Long is. And no one was stopping that Alabama offense that year. Not with a month to prepare. No one.

Head Coaches can’t help but consider everything and thus might not make the best play callers.

There’ definitely been a few plays late in every game that makes me stop and consider if Brian Kelly would have called it the same way. The red zone stats speak for themselves, Chip Long is better for everybody when he’s the one calling the plays.

Our running game wears defenses down. Look what we did to the supposed monster d line NCSU had. Just kept banging them until they quit. This team will run all over any team that doesn't have great DEPTH on the dline. That's why UGA stopped us. Depth, not just first team talent. It's why we would struggle to run over Bama & Clemson.

Alabama Georgia Ohio State Clemson

Those 4 teams can beat Notre Dame.

Not only would they have to be mistake free but they’d also need to be athletic enough to make people miss and escape from them when they’re chasing you. Georgia makes me question that if ND matches up with them. Notre Dame’s getting better. I think they’re still working towards their ceilings.

 

[deadirishpoet]

I'd be interested to hear some opinions on this. I was going to do a position by position analysis. But there is really not much of a comparison right now. The 2012 team was full of damn good senior talent who went on to play on Sundays: Tuitt, Eifert, Riddick, Manti, Martin, Watt (retired this year), Farley, TJ Jones. And some damn good players who haven't really stuck in the NFL Kapron Lewis-Moore, Cierre Wood, Braxton Cave, Lewis Nix, Cave, Golson. Solid young backups...Day, Martin, Stanley.

I fully expect many of our current lineup to go on to the NFL but it is a much younger team.

Despite that, our current team seems to be very physical (2013 Natty team really got pushed around by an Alabama team that many think is the best of the past ten years.)

I think Kelly did a bad job preparing them for that game (the Manti nonsense didn't help) -- we will be better prepared for a bowl game this year.

Thank you, Scott Ballis -- he will know how to keep them sharp and ready after the regular season ends!!! (Imagine if he had been the S&C guy in 2012!)

The current O-Line seems as good and probably better (Mustipher is better than Cave, Nelson is better than Watt, but Z. Martin is better than McQ (but not by that much), and I like the current right side better than Golic and Lombard. Josh Adams may be the best back I've seen in my time at ND -- and I was at ND with Vegus F and Jerome H, watched Bettis and Brooks, Denson, et. al. I also believe that Wimbush (doesn't turn the ball over) is better now than Golson was in his first season. Receivers -- I would give the nod to 2012 with TJ, Eifert, Daniels, Goodman and Toma but not by much (I actually think this group has more potential talent -- except for Eifert.)

I'll leave it to someone else to do the defense. I do think the current group is deeper and more athletic across the board (especially CBs and Safeties). There is no Manti (but damn, we didn't have a Tevon Coney to back up Manti in 2012! I liked Carlo, Fox, Shembo and Spond, but Coney is playing like an Alabama LB.

Thoughts?

2012

All defense while Kelly continue to try to install a pass happy offense.

2017

All defense with an established power run offense

 

[HarlemIrish]

I haven't seen this type of running in a long time. This O-Line IMO is better then 2012's big uglies.

 

[stu4don]

I haven't seen this type of running in a long time. This O-Line IMO is better then 2012's big uglies.

Agree with both you and DIP, Harlem. Disagree with the guy above who said we couldn't beat Georgia, Clemson -- the is bs, our team is much much better than it was in week two. Clemson got beat by Syracuse! Clemson nearly got beat by BC at home! I also think -- if we can continue to develop -- we can beat anyone, yes Alabama too. We no longer fear the SEC.

Special teams need to get better.
Better pass rush on 3rd down. Still too many 3rd and longs being converted vs. the d on Saturday.
BW -- just continue to protect the ball and get better.

Lovin' this Irish Team. Each week I have seen improvement. They are all in and together to a man.

 

[HarlemIrish]

Agree with both you and DIP, Harlem. Disagree with the guy above who said we couldn't beat Georgia, Clemson -- the is bs, our team is much much better than it was in week two. Clemson got beat by Syracuse! Clemson nearly got beat by BC at home! I also think -- if we can continue to develop -- we can beat anyone, yes Alabama too. We no longer fear the SEC.

Special teams need to get better.
Better pass rush on 3rd down. Still too many 3rd and longs being converted vs. the d on Saturday.
BW -- just continue to protect the ball and get better.

Lovin' this Irish Team. Each week I have seen improvement. They are all in and together to a man.

It's a shame we lost home field advantage to Georgia. I wonder if that crowd was all Irish and intimidating just maybe a different outcome.

 

[88ND]

12 vs 17
Defense... Similar. 12 d line was better but the back seven in 17 is better...or at least playing better.

Offense no comparison.

BW is incredibly way more effective than golson. Much more lethal.

Golson made it a point to show everyone he could throw at the expense of running the thing.

BW doesn't seem to care or I hope he doesn't care how he gets it done... Just get it done.

The Irish offense in 17 is much harder to defend.

 

[HRC08]

I haven't seen this type of running in a long time. This O-Line IMO is better then 2012's big uglies.

A lot better imo. The left in 2012 was good, maybe very good. Cave was above average. The right side was average, at best.

 

[francade]

Good point, Notre domer1, Motta and manti each had lacy behind the LOS multiple times and missed tackles. It was maddening. So was the non call on eifert early on and the missed call on the punt that they fumbled. W/ that said, we needed to play a perfect game to stay in it and we did the opposite.

 

[twalsh]

The 2017 D doesn't get enough credit for how good it is. According to ESPN FPI, we have the 5th best D in the country.

With mostly all the same players that were underperforming stiffs last year. Can Elko not be the assistant coach of the year?

 

[NotreDame du Lac]

If 2012 had today's coaches, I'd say 2012 hands down. With that team and today's coaches we'd have beat Bama. Bama players said they were evenly matched and some say ND had as much star power. 2012 team was vastly out coached.

That said, I really like this teams grit. I like the personality of this team better. I like how we dominate. 2012 barely squeezed by some less than stellar opponents. They were fun, but I'll take this current package of players and coaches all day. It's all coaching. Talent only beats hard work when talent is matched with hard work.

 

[twalsh]

It's a shame we lost home field advantage to Georgia. I wonder if that crowd was all Irish and intimidating just maybe a different outcome.

Georgia wasn't going to be intimidated under any circumstances. It's a nice story, but the game was properly decided on the field. Crowd was not an issue.

 

[deadirishpoet]

A lot better imo. The left in 2012 was good, maybe very good. Cave was above average. The right side was average, at best.

Agree though I thought B Cave was an excellent center

 

[HRC08]

Agree though I thought B Cave was an excellent center

He was except that he wasn’t soley responsible for nearly as many game changing type plays as this year’s center has been. Listen the 2012 line was really good until they lost the right guard (name escapes me) and Golic was forced to be a starter instead of being a valued backup at multiple positions.

 

[HRC08]

Georgia wasn't going to be intimidated under any circumstances. It's a nice story, but the game was properly decided on the field. Crowd was not an issue.

There’s no way of knowing that since the game was always a one possession type affair and they had a Freshman qb. We already know our freshman qb wasn’t rattled by the noise (UGA fans made a heck of a lot more that game) but we’ll never know how he’d have handled a crowd like say what ND Stadium has provided the past two weeks. Brilliant fan interaction the past two weeks.

Shame so many took part of the $30,000,000.00 (lol UGA) Georgia fans spent attending that game instead of keeping their tickets and supporting their program. There’s no way I’d ever spend $700 for a single ticket to any event.

 

[HRC08]

If 2012 had today's coaches, I'd say 2012 hands down. With that team and today's coaches we'd have beat Bama. Bama players said they were evenly matched and some say ND had as much star power. 2012 team was vastly out coached.

That said, I really like this teams grit. I like the personality of this team better. I like how we dominate. 2012 barely squeezed by some less than stellar opponents. They were fun, but I'll take this current package of players and coaches all day. It's all coaching. Talent only beats hard work when talent is matched with hard work.

Evenly matched? We’ve had 5 years and a look at today’s nfl rosters to know that that game was a mismatch.

The fact that ND played so many close games (everybody told us that btw) should have been indication enough. That’s why I like this team better: they are blowing teams out!

 

[twalsh]

There’s no way of knowing that since the game was always a one possession type affair and they had a Freshman qb. We already know our freshman qb wasn’t rattled by the noise (UGA fans made a heck of a lot more that game) but we’ll never know how he’d have handled a crowd like say what ND Stadium has provided the past two weeks. Brilliant fan interaction the past two weeks.

Shame so many took part of the $30,000,000.00 (lol UGA) Georgia fans spent attending that game instead of keeping their tickets and supporting their program. There’s no way I’d ever spend $700 for a single ticket to any event.

You never know. I dropped $1,000 per ticket so my senior daughter could watch her friends try and win a BCS championship, and we were down 21-0 in the first quarter. I think they call that adding insult to injury. Expensive injury.

 

[shooter1977]

That 2012 team had a nasty defense. I believe 10 of the 11 starters were eventually drafted with Te'o, Tuitt, and Nix being all-american caliber.

The 2012 offense was well balanced, but it wasn't overly physical and the Title game was a joke. Did we seriously not practice tackling or has that become a message board myth?

 

[twalsh]

That 2012 team had a nasty defense. I believe 10 of the 11 starters were eventually drafted with Te'o, Tuitt, and Nix being all-american caliber.

The 2012 offense was well balanced, but it wasn't overly physical and the Title game was a joke. Did we seriously not practice tackling or has that become a message board myth?

I think its serious, Kelly has as much as admitted it. We were very non-physical in our preparation and got out-physicaled to death in the game. We had Lacey and Yeldon dead to rights behind the LOS several times in that game and just could not tackle them to the ground.

 

[NDlb46]

That 2012 team had a nasty defense. I believe 10 of the 11 starters were eventually drafted with Te'o, Tuitt, and Nix being all-american caliber.

The 2012 offense was well balanced, but it wasn't overly physical and the Title game was a joke. Did we seriously not practice tackling or has that become a message board myth?

I was just thinking about this too. I thought that was something that came out from the coaches after the game. I don't think it was a myth. If memory serves, there were a lot of injuries not to starters but to backups that affected the depth of the team in practices forcing them to not go full contact as much. I can't exactly back that up with facts, just what I remembered. I do think that this team is far deeper at key positions than in 2012. That would be an interesting roster comparison.

 

[y2joey]

I feel like the long layoff hurt as did Brian potentially talking to NFL teams and a lack of actual practice. That team seemed woefully unprepared for Bama.

 

[twalsh]

I feel like the long layoff hurt as did Brian potentially talking to NFL teams and a lack of actual practice. That team seemed woefully unprepared for Bama.

To be fair, there's no evidence that he was talking to the Eagles at all during bowl prep, though his agent clearly was.

 

[Kelso86]

Chip Long is the difference. Kelly isn't the offensive genius he thinks he is. Long is. And no one was stopping that Alabama offense that year. Not with a month to prepare. No one.

"And no one was stopping that Alabama offense that year. Not with a month to prepare. No one"

Remember reading an article, and they quoted the Alabama center - he basically stated that they knew where ND would be almost every play, they were that vanilla.

 

[y2joey]

To be fair, there's no evidence that he was talking to the Eagles at all during bowl prep, though his agent clearly was.

I remember hearing the Bears too.

 

[HRC08]

That 2012 team had a nasty defense. I believe 10 of the 11 starters were eventually drafted with Te'o, Tuitt, and Nix being all-american caliber.

The 2012 offense was well balanced, but it wasn't overly physical and the Title game was a joke. Did we seriously not practice tackling or has that become a message board myth?

IIRC Kelly said that we “wanted to peak at the right moment” and thus used that as a (reason/excuse) for not tackling during December. Truth is that ND was thin on the oline and he didn’t want to risk an injury. He was probably correct but maybe using the back ups would have been the better strategy. Bama was head and a shoulders better and more prepared then the Irish.

 

[NotreDame du Lac]

Players carried the coaches in 2012.

 

[HarlemIrish]

Georgia wasn't going to be intimidated under any circumstances. It's a nice story, but the game was properly decided on the field. Crowd was not an issue.

HAHA! Come on, your telling me it wouldn't be nice to play with the home field advantage? I know baseball is different from football but after Houston left The Bronx, Carlos Beltran gave the team a talking to. Houston admitted they were intimidated from The yankee crowd.