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Top recruits sound off on BK

What you are reading in my posts is exasperation.
  • Frustration with the fact that I've been saying the same thing for a half a decade being proven right over and over again and that I still haven't earned the benefit of the doubt
  • Frustrated that the overton window/dialogue regarding ND football hasn't moved despite endless evidence that runs contrary to the mainstream rhetoric/narrative.
  • Frustrated with lackluster recruiting
  • Frustrated with the ND establishment being complicit in the status quo (e.g. no critical articles, no criticism of Kelly, no criticism of ND administrators, etc.)
  • Frustrated with ND brass VIGOROUSLY supporting the status quo
  • Frustrated with fans who think i'm just some irrational hater despite providing tons of data to support my analysis
  • Frustrated that we are still having to go over and over the same deadbeat topics (there's only so many ways you can explain that 2+2=4)
I don't hate Brian Kelly .. i hate the fact that he remains employed at Notre Dame when most can see that he's topped out somewhere in the back half of the top 15 since back in 2015 ... and it's the same group of fans/media/nd establishment rehashing the same lameduck defense/arguments of BK in the face of ever-mounting evidence.

Kelly is an average coach propped up via coaching at a 1%'er program.

And the only reason anyone supports him is because people believe that somehow instead of ND just ending up with yet another comparable average coach, or hopefully someone better, that another Daviehamweis caliber coach will be hired instead.

Truth of the matter is that the probability of any one program making that many bad hires in a row is extremely rare. Based upon their professional performances post-ND, one could make a very compelling and rational argument that Davie, Willingham, and Weis are among some of the worst head coaches in college football history. The fact that ND actually hired such bad coaches three times in a row is a statistical anomaly not likely to happen again.

That people can't realize that and are so frightened of it happening again, is very frustrating.

Its pretty evident that while Kelly is clearly better than three of the worst coaches in college football history, he is nowhere near an elite coach and he is underperforming in comparison to most of his contemporaries and that ND will not reach its full potential as a football program under his leadership.

These are all pretty clear and observable facts and its just not rational to me why some people can't realize this and cling so fearfully to Kelly like a child clutching their blanky while staring at the cracked door of the bedroom closet waiting for the Daviehamweis boogie man to jump out.
 
Meyer was even texting recruits in church at the peak of his obsessions.

And I agree with your observations about Kelly's lack of work ethic on the recruiting trail. Its well documented and known throughout the industry.

He really only visits with committed kids at their house when mom has whipped up a nice meal for him to partake in. Or he is always willing to do an on campus photo op in his office assuming he's not previously engaged.

It's all pretty laughable that some would still want to defend his lack of work ethic when it so clearly and directly results in subpar efforts on the field. But to each their own--some people were raised to always be irrationally reverent to perceived authority figures or idols.

I think your last point is something we obsess over as a culture, and while I understand it, I think it's a seriously flawed argument. Brian Kelly has undoubtedly forgotten more about football than I know. That's not in question... But the idea that years of experience somehow qualifies him as an excellent recruiter, which is one aspect of the game, is just not true... There are young coaches around the country, including the offensive coordinator that he just let go, that are infinitely better recruiters than him. They don't have his experience, but a lot of them can absolutely recruit circles around him. There are guys that I guarantee you and I have never heard of, that are rockstar recruiters, because it's their speciality.

I'm in the military, so I'll use this analogy. It's like assuming a Colonel or a General are excellent marksmen, simply because of how far they've made it. The truth is, in most circumstances, there is a private, corporal or a Master Corporal (or equivalent) out there, who shoots all the time and specifically hones that craft. Because of that, they are experts in their craft and can make shots that a flag officer would never dream of.

Recruiting is a niche skill. It's simply one element of coaching. It happens to be one of Kelly's weakest, IMO.
 
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Kelly is an average coach propped up via coaching at a 1%'er program.

And the only reason anyone supports him is because people believe that somehow instead of ND just ending up with yet another comparable average coach, or hopefully someone better, that another Daviehamweis caliber coach will be hired instead.

Truth of the matter is that the probability of any one program making that many bad hires in a row is extremely rare. Based upon their professional performances post-ND, one could make a very compelling and rational argument that Davie, Willingham, and Weis are among some of the worst head coaches in college football history. The fact that ND actually hired such bad coaches three times in a row is a statistical anomaly not likely to happen again.

That people can't realize that and are so frightened of it happening again, is very frustrating.

Its pretty evident that while Kelly is clearly better than three of the worst coaches in college football history, he is nowhere near an elite coach and he is underperforming in comparison to most of his contemporaries and that ND will not reach its full potential as a football program under his leadership.

These are all pretty clear and observable facts and its just not rational to me why some people can't realize this and cling so fearfully to Kelly like a child clutching their blanky while staring at the cracked door of the bedroom closet waiting for the Daviehamweis boogie man to jump out.

What a refreshing presence to have your contributions on this forum. Reading this was therapeutic. Fantastic post!
 
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I think your last point is something we obsess over as a culture, and while I understand it, I think it's a seriously flawed argument. Brian Kelly has undoubtedly forgotten more about football than I know. That's not in question... But the idea that years of experience somehow qualifies him as an excellent recruiter, which is one aspect of the game, is just not true... There are young coaches around the country, including the offensive coordinator that he just let go, that are infinitely better recruiters than him. They don't have his experience, but a lot of them can absolutely recruit circles around him. There are guys that I guarantee you and I have never heard of, that are rockstar recruiters, because it's their speciality.

I'm in the military, so I'll use this analogy. It's like assuming a Colonel or a General are excellent marksmen, simply because of how far they've made it. The truth is, in most circumstances, there is a private, corporal or a Master Corporal (or equivalent) out there, who shoots all the time and specifically hones that craft. Because of that, they are experts in their craft and can make shots that a flag officer would never dream of.

Recruiting is a niche skill. It's simply one element of coaching. It happens to be one of Kelly's weakest, IMO.

I think you were trying to quote me, at least the context of this would suggest that. My argument is not "who are you to say you know more" that is not how I am wanting this to come across. My thing is, as a society and fan base we are easy to judge and cast those aside based on failures and short comings, yet we are not nearly as excited to jump on any accomplishment, mainly due to the fact that it would disprove our stances we have already taken. I love the middle of the aisle and I intend to stay in the middle until I have enough information to go off of to make a rational and accurate decision, and in a "He said she said" which is what this whole thing is, I think it is unfair to start make all of these accusations based off of one failure, because people do not do the same with one accomplishment.

It a serious problem on this board, people are so stuck in their ways that they only see one way or the other when it just is not so. Sometimes you do not have enough information to formulate an opinion and that is okay, it far better to remain in the neutral than go reaching for facts that support your argument when there are just as many to discount is as well.

So when I challenged you by saying "I think it is a stretch for you to suggest you know more than BK" It was not a slight against you as I stated before mentioning, it was more of the fact that he has gotten some of the best talent ND has ever seen before and we are calling him a poor recruiter based off of 2 kids slamming him which we can then use as evidence to support our claim that he is below average? Does not hold up to me.
 
I think you were trying to quote me, at least the context of this would suggest that. My argument is not "who are you to say you know more" that is not how I am wanting this to come across. My thing is, as a society and fan base we are easy to judge and cast those aside based on failures and short comings, yet we are not nearly as excited to jump on any accomplishment, mainly due to the fact that it would disprove our stances we have already taken. I love the middle of the aisle and I intend to stay in the middle until I have enough to go off of to make a decision, and in a "He said she said" which is what that is, I think it is unfair to start make all of these accusations based off of one failure because people do not the same with one accomplishment.

It a serious problem on this board, people are so stuck in their ways that they only see one way or the other when it just is not so. Sometimes you do not have enough information to formulate an opinion and that is okay, it far better to remain in the neutral than go reaching for facts that support your argument when there are just as many to discount is as well.

So when I challenged you by saying "I think it is a stretch for you to suggest you know more than BK" It was not a slight against you as I stated before mentioning, it was more of the fact that he has gotten some of the best talent ND has ever seen before and we are calling him a poor recruiter based off of 2 kids slamming him which we can then use as evidence to support our claim that he is below average? Does not hold up to me.

For the record, Brian Kelly absolutely knows more about football than I do. I'm not challenging that one bit. I respect the guy for all that he's accomplished. I'm judt confident that a lot of guys are much better recruiters than he is. Guys we've never even heard of. Some guys make an entire career out of strictly that.
 
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For the record, Brian Kelly absolutely knows more about football than I do. I'm not challenging that one bit. I respect the guy for all that he's accomplished. I'm judt confident that a lot of guys are much better recruiters than he is. Guys we've never even heard of. Some guys make an entire career out of strictly that.
Lazy recruiting exposed....enough said....he can Fix it going forward.
 
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For the record, Brian Kelly absolutely knows more about football than I do. I'm not challenging that one bit. I respect the guy for all that he's accomplished. I'm judt confident that a lot of guys are much better recruiters than he is. Guys we've never even heard of. Some guys make an entire career out of strictly that.
This. Ed Orgeron is one of them. He hires the best coordinators money can buy and stays the hell out of their way and he focuses exclusively on all of the other big picture aspects of the program, recruiting being probably his main focus.
 
For the record, Brian Kelly absolutely knows more about football than I do. I'm not challenging that one bit. I respect the guy for all that he's accomplished. I'm judt confident that a lot of guys are much better recruiters than he is. Guys we've never even heard of. Some guys make an entire career out of strictly that.

And you are 100% correct my guy. I am a huge WVU fan as well as ND. Years ago we had a coach by the name of Bill Stewart. He was a motivator, heck of a recruiter and wore his heart on his sleeve. He won us the Fiesta Bowl against OU in 2007 and was a loved. He could never win more than 9 games but brought in some of the best talent the program ever saw. It is rare coaches have both skills and even more rare when they can put the two together. I have no doubt that BK can be better, but I hope that you are seeing the point that I am trying to make here about where I stand on this in comparison to some posters.
 
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This. Ed Orgeron is one of them. He hires the best coordinators money can buy and stays the hell out of their way and he focuses exclusively on all of the other big picture aspects of the program, recruiting being probably his main focus.

So, Ed Orgeron makes 2 good hires over the course of 4 years and he is now the pinnacle for you as a college coach? I think it is just funny to piggy back his success over the course of 4 years when he followed arguable the greatest recruiter in the SEC and did not have to do much to win. I think you can find a better example than that.
 
So, Ed Orgeron makes 2 good hires over the course of 4 years and he is now the pinnacle for you as a college coach? I think it is just funny to piggy back his success over the course of 4 years when he followed arguable the greatest recruiter in the SEC and did not have to do much to win. I think you can find a better example than that.

O. has always been a great recruiter
 
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I have defended Kelly many times. But not on this one. There is no excuse. Comment Cane Berrong committed to Notre Dame in June and still hasn't had a real in person conversation with Brian Kelly. Enough said!
 
What a refreshing presence to have your contributions on this forum. Reading this was therapeutic. Fantastic post!

Thanks.

We will just continue to drown out the white noise and lay present the realities on the current state of the ND football program under Kelly.

Even the Kelly Deniers and all their vitriol deserve better than the top 15ish plateau Kelly has willfully left the program stuck upon.
 
yawn, another couple of kids with their feelings hurt. hard to truly recruit these days without having to be a professional ass kisser to a lot of these kids. have to put it in perspective. lots of kids have no problem with the way ND recruited them.
There is NO excuse that he can't send text to these kids. How long does it take? The fact that he has had face to face conversations with recruits who've commited over six months ago is inexcusable.
 
I have defended Kelly many times. But not on this one. There is no excuse. Comment Cane Berrong committed to Notre Dame in June and still hasn't had a real in person conversation with Brian Kelly. Enough said!
We will lose the qb from California before the year is over .
 
Who knows what the whole story is, or why BK did not have the communication that these two kids wanted? Its amo for the Kelly haters and this thread will soon be full of "See I told you so" while no one really knows the whole story.

This is a tale as old as time, 18 year old kids saying "if this" and "if that" after they have already signed. Would it have really impacted the decision making process if Kelly busts his ass on these two? Would it have negatively impacted other singees recruiting process? See those questions are never addressed or answered because it is not as grabbing as kids "bashing" Kelly.

Give me a break, you cannot get every recruit.
Alot of truth in this post
 
I've been a Kelly defender (and remain so) but, if true and if it goes beyond these two kids, this is unacceptable. These days college football is so much about recruiting -- hopefully, Kelly is planning to step it up. If not, time to find a guy who can recruit.
 
There is NO excuse that he can't send text to these kids. How long does it take? The fact that he has had face to face conversations with recruits who've commited over six months ago is inexcusable.
Agree! He can send text messages while waiting his turn on the tee box.
 
Both these kids need media training ... inexcusable to be getting worked by the media for these type of quotes. Someone will also have to help them understand why the day they sign in the dotted line that precious “best pal” coach has now become a man to be feared and revered. Do they want to be coached or do they want to be stroked and petted like new puppies that will soon grow into troublesome pets.
 
the attention offered is often commensurate with the attention exchanged
 
WHOA WHAT !?!?!? AN ND MEDIA OUTLET ACTUALLY CRITICIZING THE PROGRAM / THE RECRUITING / BRIAN KELLY --- WHAT IN THE HELL DID I JUST SEE!?!?! ... IS THERE PIGS FLYING OUTSIDE!?!?! ... HAS HELL FROZEN OVER!?!?! ... DID Y2K HAPPEN BUT JUST 20 YEARS LATE !?!?!
Yes
 
This comes across to me as two teenagers with a healthy sense of entitlement who are butt hurt because just maybe they were a lot more interested in Notre Dame than Notre Dame was in them. Funny how you never here this kind of nonsense from kids who did commit. I've been around high school athletes 20 plus years. Social media has made many of them incorrigible. Way too many divas out there. Talk about making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Great!! .... trash the kids …. this has to be the answer since BK has never done anything wrong and is perfect in everything he does …. sheesh

Coming from a "self-proclaimed" coach of 20 years who apparently spends chunks of EVERY day on this social media site ….. your take is by no coincidence hilarious
 
What if we do end up with the #1 (unlikely do to numbers) recruiting class in 2021, or even Top 3-5, because Brian Kelly finally realized -10+ years into his stint at ND- that he needs to be heavily/rigorously involved in recruiting. Like, really? How is this even a discussion? If anyone is even halfway passionate about being the HC of Notre Dame, how do you not go out and make a strenuous effort to make this program elite? If all of the sudden recruiting kicks up a notch or two, then wouldn't that be bittersweet; we've had the ability to be legitimately elite and haven't been because our HC didn't know that he had to recruit hard. Jeez.
 
Kids who want there "backsides" kissed aren't going to cut it at ND. Go right to the SEC.
Different aisle......
 
If anyone is even halfway passionate about being the HC of Notre Dame, how do you not go out and make a strenuous effort to make this program elite?

Kelly is not passionate about coaching at ND. That's part of the issue.
 
Kelly is not passionate about coaching at ND. That's part of the issue.

This is a horrendous take on the actual situation. Funny how in one failure, or as you will point out 2, you can make connections to Kelly's coaching issues and then claim him as not passionate about his job.

This is just ludicrous and completely false. It's one thing to have valid points, but it's clear you're just a hater.
 
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What if we do end up with the #1 (unlikely do to numbers) recruiting class in 2021, or even Top 3-5, because Brian Kelly finally realized -10+ years into his stint at ND- that he needs to be heavily/rigorously involved in recruiting. Like, really? How is this even a discussion? If anyone is even halfway passionate about being the HC of Notre Dame, how do you not go out and make a strenuous effort to make this program elite? If all of the sudden recruiting kicks up a notch or two, then wouldn't that be bittersweet; we've had the ability to be legitimately elite and haven't been because our HC didn't know that he had to recruit hard. Jeez.

Just work your ass off, go get this class and nobody with a clue will complain about 2021 recruiting...

QB: Tyler Buchner
RB: Will Shipley
WR: Deion Colzie
WR: Lorenzo Styles Jr
WR: Cristian Dixon
TE: Cane Berrong
OL: Blake Fisher
OL: Landon Tengwall
OL: Rocco Spindler
OL: Garrett Dellinger
DE: Elliot Donald
DE: Brock Bowers
DE: Kelvin Gilliam
NG: Gabriel Rubio
DT: Aaron Armitage
LB: Barrett Carter
LB: Mac Uihlein
Rover: Zavier Carter
CB: Ceyair Wright
CB: Tony Grimes
S: Justin Walters
S: Daylan Carnell
 
This is a horrendous take on the actual situation. Funny how in one failure, or as you will point out 2, you can make connections to Kelly's coaching issues and then claim him as not passionate about his job.

This is just ludicrous and completely false. It's one thing to have valid points, but it's clear you're just a hater.

Please point me to the proof that its "ludicrous and completely false".

We have an article with verified quotes from recruits illustrating how he is not carrying out the tasks that are expected of his position and that his contemporaries enthusiastically engage in.

We also have articles post-2016 season noting that he did not know some of his own players' names.

We know he has yet to reach out to Cane Berrong (spelling?).

We have an on the field interview before the Georgia game, the biggest game of the season, where he is referring to the team as they/them.

The burden of proof lies upon YOU my good fellow to show us any verifiable data points where Kelly is showing enthusiasm or affection for the job.

This is where you have difficulty. You run about disparaging others points of view like a temperamental toddler but you never present any actual evidence to the contrary.

That is why so many people on here find your presence on the board to be quite off putting. Please take some time to collect your thoughts and come up with calm and rational counterpoints to others posts. It will help you out greatly as a poster and make your existence here much more tenable for others. Improvement is possible for everyone! Sometimes it just takes a little self reflection and contemplation.

Perhaps a temporary break from posting is in order? It may do wonders for your temperament. At least consider the suggestion.

I think you have great potential for meaningful contributions to the board. Everyone definitely feels your enthusiasm. Its just going to take some time to round off the hard edges--learning to play nice with others--those types of things.

I will look forward to your triumphant return with great anticipation and longing. Until then, be well my good friend!!!
 
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Well why don’t they ask the kids that actually committed to ND what they think of the coach and his staff ? It might be a different take. Maybe these two kids in the article were not pursued for reasons we fans do not know about. Who really knows? Hey , you decided to commit elsewhere? No sweat. Good luck . Time to move on.
 
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