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Recruiting: the contenders

P

perseverare

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May 24, 2010
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did ND gain ground - hold place - lose ground in the NC playoff race?

Team / # =>5.9 / # 6.1 / # 6.0 (no particular order)

tOSU 9/0/4
Ala 10/4/5
USC 14/3/6
AU 7/2/2
FSU 8/5/1
Clem 11/3/2
UGA 7/2/3
LSU 7/4/1
O Mis 6/0/2
Ore 4/0/4
Stan 5/1/0
UCLA 6/3/0
ND 9/0/1
 
I think ND held ground. This class had preety solid balance and depth. They missed on 1 safety and 1 very good DE/DL player.
ND also has a better coach than all but 3 of the teams you listed, possibly 4.
 
No idea what these numbers are in context.

But they seem very similar to tOSU. And I think they had an okay year last year. Not that most of the fans on here would have been happy with it though.
 
technically 7/9 of the ND commits are on offense. An obvious imbalance; and the offense was already the stronger unit.

(I do include JT on defense as that is how his RR rating was determined; as a DT he has NR)



This post was edited on 2/10 11:34 AM by perseverare
 
IB

they relate to the recent post showing the relationship between NC's and recruiting.
The # of commits that are equal to or greater than 5.9 and then what are generally expected to be early impact commits: 6.0 and 6.1
 
It tells me what we already know, and that is we had a very solid recruiting class, and a few others had great recruiting classes, including Clemson. It doesn't tell us the extent these are complimentary pieces, nor how these fit the system or scheme of the school, or how well these young men will develop under coaching. That said, I would rather have an outstanding class as these tend to reduce the margin of error surrounding these factors.
 
Tex --

Those that have never played a sport would have no appreciation for the points you just made ie

Feeling needs - good fit for school and program - possible upside development .

Engaging in a constructive conversation with this nit wit would be like looking for a healthy girl friend in a womens mental hospital .

To appreciete the level of this class one may want to take a peek at Ohio St recruiting class / ranking . I am now going to bore the shit out of you Tex

7 games into this past season ND was # 5 in the country and beat FSU before interior of our defense disappeared in front of our very eyes . I look for the same next yr sans the injuries

BTW -- please tell the resident nit wit that no more than 3 of the kids that we recruited this season will crack the 2 deep next yr
 
i look at it simply from a numbers point of view. The numbers speak not just of the past but of the expectations. They are impartial and objective.
There are always instances that are exceptional happenings, but that does not make them a good bet.

I think of recruiting data as somewhat like the football approach to 'Billy Ball'
 
Billy Ball is an interesting comparison. Yes, it is empirically based. However, the statistical assessment is used primarily to garner complimentary pieces. Further, Billy Ball has shown to be successful only with the right kind of coaching. Melvin is successful, where his immediate predecessor was not. Lastly, the stats of these pro baseball players are derived from players playing against the same competition under the same conditions, etc... Whereas nothing could be further from the truth for the stats of thousands of high school football players.
 
Continuallyirish - how old are you ? You seem young. ND is first and foremost is a private catholic college. Whether you are catholic or Christian not does not matter. But, just so you know. One of the main principals of being a Christian or a Catholic is "forgiveness."

Do you really need to chime in and be so vindictive ?
 
Continually, I am simply posting to the thread. Perse put me on ignore when I asked him to support his assertion that you are somehow connected to Kelly and working on his behalf to stifle criticism. Found the reference to Billy Ball interesting, as the empirical view has value, but the petri dish in this instance is simply too different.
 
Telx1 I May be mistaken, but ND Has something like 56 or 57 4 or 5 star players Returning this year that is 20 plus more than ND had when Coach Kelly took over I don't understand why perse insists on claiming ND has no top end Talent
 
Irish Blessing, you don't really want to turn this into a debate and discussion of the Catholic teachings on forgiveness, do you? Not aware that Perse has asked for forgiveness, nor changed his behavior to suggest he wants forgiveness. More importantly, I think you miss that Perse loves to stir the pot, and he covets these kinds of reactions.

Danny, we do in fact return a lot of talent, but Perse correctly states that much of this is on the offensive side of the ball, and we do have some serious questions on the defensive side. Van Gorder's scheme requires lock down corners and swift and correct decision making by the safeties, and serious pressure on the QB. We will have the lock down corners assuming Russell returns. Our safeties have the skill set, but have yet to demonstrate the necessary football IQ and speed of decision making required of them to play this scheme, and our DL should be great against the run, but a serious rush DE has yet to materialize. We have possibilities of meeting all the requisites, but right now, the jury is still out until Spring Ball and the Fall. Lot's to discuss along these lines, and hopefully we can get past this nonsense of HS rankings as the only predictor of success.
 
T, you are right. My bad for stepping in - It would be nice if we all can keep the discussions to ND and ND football. And most of us are all guilty at one time or another of being a knucklehead here on this board. And I know that Perse has fueled the fire of many as well w/ his impatience for others not agreeing with his side of things.

Time to move on to ND football and leave it at that.

Go Irish. Here's to having either EG or MZ stepping to the forefront and playing the QB spot like a Man this season !
 
i do not read his posts, nor his other Id's, (ID's that I believe involve 3 persons at least) but assuming he cites something along the lines of Christian attack speaks for itself. The apples did not fall far from the tree.

For the record : a holy rolling memeber of Pentacostal Assembly of God here. Born into Irish Catholic Family, I did my own thinking and decided my Christian place of worship.

One thing Christians do not do is question the Christianity of another Christian.

Reading the filth and vulgarity of his earlier posts under his myriad of ID's he needs a lil work on his walk.

More bizarre to me is that the frequent posters here are fooled these postings.
Occam's razor.

Like I said 12 n out!




This post was edited on 2/10 3:33 PM by perseverare
 
IB

posters are free to disagree; there is a proper waybto do it.
I posted stats that speak whatever the reader wishes to interpret the stats to mean.
 
Don't be so modest Perse! You post the stats and then interpret the stats and then predict success for others based on the stats and failure for ND based on the stats. It's the prediction of ND failure (less than 10 wins and not playing for the NC) , and the constant disparaging remarks about Kelly that gets people riled.
 
Telx1 I just compiled a list Players ranking are based off 247 composite rankings I may have missed a couple players 2015 roster



QB Malik Zaire 4 STAR
QB DeShone Kizer 4Star
QB Brandon Wimbush 4STAR
QB Everett Golson 3STAR


RB Greg Bryant 4Star
RB Tarean Folston 4STAR
RB Dexter Williams 4STAR
RB Josh Adams 4STAR


WR Justin Brent 4STAR
WR Chris Brown 3STAR
WR Amir Carlisle 4STAR
WR Will Fuller 4STAR
WR Corey Holmes 4STAR
WR Torii Hunter 4STAR
WR C.J. Prosise 3 STAR
WR Corey Robinson 4STAR
WR Equanimeous St. Brown 4STAR
WR Miles Boykin 4STAR
WR C.J. Sanders 4STAR
WR Jalen Guyton 3STAR

TE Aliz'e Jones 4STAR
TE Tyler Luatua 4STAR
TE Nic Weishar 4STAR
TE Durham Smythe 4STAR
TE Mike Heuerman 4STAR


OL Alex Bars 4STAR
OL Hunter Bivin 4STAR
OL Jimmy Byrne 4STAR
OL Steve Elmer 4STAR
OL Mark Harrell 3STAR
OL Tristen Hoge 4STAR
OL Christian Lombard 4STAR
OL Mike McGlinchey 4STAR
OL Colin McGovern 4STAR
OL John Montelus 4STAR
OL Sam Mustipher 4STAR
OL Quenton Nelson 4STAR
OL Ronnie Stanley 4STAR
OL Nick Martin 3STAR
OL Jerry Tillery 4STAR
OL Trevor Ruhland 3STAR


DL G rant Blankenship 4STAR
DL Jonathan Bonner 3 STAR
DL Daniel Cage 4STAR
DL Sheldon Day 4STAR
DL Micah Dew-Treadway 3 STAR
DL Jay Hayes 4STAR
DL Jarron Jones 4 STAR
DL Jacob Matuska 3STAR
DL Pete Mokwuah 3 STAR
DL Romeo Okwara 3 STAR
DL Isaac Rochell 4 STAR
DL Andrew Trumbetti 4STAR
DL Jhonathon Williams 3 STAR
DL Ishaq Williams 5STAR
DL Elijah Taylor 4 STAR
DL Brandon Tiassum 3STAR
DL Jerry Tillery 4Star
DL Kolin Hill 3 STAR


LB Tevon Coney 4 STAR
LB Josh Barajas 4 STAR
LB Asmar Bilal 4 STAR
LB Bo Wallace 3 STAR
LB Michael Deeb 3STAR
LB Jarrett Grace 3STAR
LB Kolin Hill 3 STAR
LB Greer Martini 3 STAR
LB Nyles Morgan 4STAR
LB James Onwualu 4 STAR
LB Doug Randolph 4STAR
LB Jaylon Smith 5STAR
LB Joe Schmidt 6 STAR
LB Drue Tranquill 4 STAR


DB Nicco Fertitta 3 STAR
DB Ashton White 3 STAR
DB Mykelti Williams 3 STAR
DB Nick Coleman 3 STAR
DB Shaun Crawford 4 STAR
DB Devin Butler 4 STAR
DB Matthias Farley 3 STAR
DB Cole Luke 4 STAR
DB Max Redfield 5 STAR
DB Elijah Shumate 4 STAR
DB KeiVarae Russell 4 STAR
DB Drue Tranquill 4 STAR
DB Nick Watkins 4 STAR
DB Nicky Baratti 3STAR


P Tyler Newsome 3 STAR
K Justin Yoon 3STAR





























































































































































































This post was edited on 2/10 9:35 PM by dannydionne1983

This post was edited on 2/10 11:57 PM by dannydionne1983
 
Terrific list of players rankings, and that illustrates the importance of looking at the three and four year composites, and why it is a fools errand to draw conclusions about the coming season based on this years recruiting alone, here and elsewhere.
 
58 four or 5 Star players Nd will have on the Roster this Season 33 four Stars on Offense With 22 four Stars and 3 5 stars on Defense
 
Originally posted by Telx1:
Terrific list of players rankings, and that illustrates the importance of looking at the three and four year composites, and why it is a fools errand to draw conclusions about the coming season based on this years recruiting alone, here and elsewhere.
Click to expand...
Is anyone drawing conclusions about the coming season based solely on this year's recruiting?
 
Sal I have seen perse and a few others call into question the ability of the program to recruit high-level talent. Perse and a few others have come to their own conclusion that Notre Dame doesn't recruit the players to be able to play championship football I went and compiled a list showing the composite rankings for the full roster going into 2015 33 four stars on Offense 22 four stars and 3 five stars on Defense for a total of 58 four and five star players TIFWIW
 
I got that and saw the list. I think the numbers are a little on by quickly scanning them but if they are off its by one or maybe two people, either way ND will be over the 55 player threshold with regards to 4 & 5 stars. My question is who has been using this years recruiting class to speak specifically about 2015?
 
I was listening to power hour on ISD and one of them said that Notre Dame has had three straight deep quality recruiting classes for the first time since Holtz/Davie. I have been saying that three straight is the key for ND to get over the hump for a while now.

If Brian Kelly can't win at least ten games this year I am off the Coach Kelly Bandwagon. I think the Irish will though!

Go Irish!!
Lets hit em while we got the muscle!!
This post was edited on 2/10 11:43 PM by Bodizephax
 
I think you answered a question similar to mine. You're pointing out Perse and others creating expectations for next years performance based on ND's overall recruiting performance in the last few years. I am asking if anyone is actually saying "because of the quality of 2015 class ND will not do well next year or will do well next year."
 
Bodizephax posted on 2/10/2015...

I was listening to power hour on ISD and one of them said that Notre Dame has had three straight deep quality recruiting classes for the first time since Holtz/Davie. I have been saying that three straight is the key for ND to get over the hump for a while now.

If Brian Kelly can't win at least ten games this year I am off the Coach Kelly Bandwagon. I think the Irish will though!

Go Irish!!
Lets hit em while we got the muscle!!

Bodi I am not on Coach Kelly Bandwagon I don't root for the coach, I root for the team and the players on it.Hell, if Perse was the head coach, I would still root for them, I just feel like Coach Kelly has been doing this so long and with so much success in his coaching career, he must know how coach at a high level this year I do agree is a make or break year for him with the talent he has this year if he can't win with this team then it isn't happening for him here
 
Sal

the information if it follows the past trend does hint who will comprise the playoff contenders. the information is what it is. Based upon what has happened the past 10 years, i think the NC could be predicted from a group of 6 teams.

maybe i should have included one of those "spoiler alert" caveats for ND fans that go strickly by emotion or a long dead sense of entitlement. The KK's are another matter all together.
 
Perse I understand that position which is unique from the position I was asking about. I think you position is fairly well established but I think your earlier analogy to sabermetrics and "billy ball" is an over simplification of the argument. Just wanted to know if I missed something or if we were going with a straw man again.
 
Perse you are a certified
52938200.jpg

This post was edited on 2/11 12:39 AM by dannydionne1983
 
Originally posted by Telx1:
Van Gorder's scheme requires lock down corners and swift and correct decision making by the safeties, and serious pressure on the QB.
Click to expand...
Ok, you show me a defensive coach who is not seeking this and I will show you the next guy who gets fired. This might be the silliest thing I've heard yet about BVG and or defending him.

Every coach wants the above. Period. BVG system is nothing magical. It's just total chaos that is confusing the offense at times, but equally as bad confusing our own players.

Remember here folks, CW had some great schemes and tactics. But they are great for professionals who can study the damn stuff all week long for hours upon hours. A student has to spend a lot more time in the real classroom than in the football classroom.
Sure injuries were a huge part in the demise this year but there were far too many blown assignments on coverage and defending the zone read play. His system might work in the NFL but again they are professionals spending 8 plus hours a day on this stuff....not students spending 8 plus hours on chemistry, economics, pre law/med...etc etc.

I'm not writing off BVG as a defensive coach after one season but I can tell you that the sheer fact he insisted on playing Jaylon Smith ...a true difference maker out of position all year speaks volumes. Jaylon needs to run. Not take on a guard head on with a 3 yard head start. No. He reads the plays on the inside way too slow because honestly I don't think he feels very comfortable playing on the inside banging heads every play. He might say he does but any player that takes pride in their game would never say they don't like something they aren't really good at. I remember how he wanted to show off his toughness wanting to jump to the inside position. ( for those of you who don't know...it is physically tougher to play inside backer than outside. )
But where he does shine is in space where he can show his athleticism. He can close the gap like few in the game today. Playing in the middle he gets lost in the trash too much and takes way too long to read the play from the inside.

Remember one other thing...Jaylon was recruited to come here when we were running the 3-4. He was sold on being an outside backer that could create havoc for the offense. Rightfully so. He is a tremendous athlete. Inside backer he is not no matter how much he wants to try it and no matter how much BVG refuses to allow him to roam free.

Let's see what happens here this year and hopefully we can stay healthier. I'm also willing to bet that you will see Jaylon being used a lot more in space than 2014.
 
Originally posted by dannydionne1983:
Bodizephax posted on 2/10/2015...


I was listening to power hour on ISD and one of them said that Notre Dame has had three straight deep quality recruiting classes for the first time since Holtz/Davie. I have been saying that three straight is the key for ND to get over the hump for a while now.

If Brian Kelly can't win at least ten games this year I am off the Coach Kelly Bandwagon. I think the Irish will though!

Go Irish!!
Lets hit em while we got the muscle!!

Bodi I am not on Coach Kelly Bandwagon I don't root for the coach, I root for the team and the players on it.Hell, if Perse was the head coach, I would still root for them, I just feel like Coach Kelly has been doing this so long and with so much success in his coaching career, he must know how coach at a high level this year I do agree is a make or break year for him with the talent he has this year if he can't win with this team then it isn't happening for him here
Click to expand...
Guy was 12-0 2 yrs ago started this yr 8-0 pre injuries --

one team in the NFL finished the season after playoffs w less than 5 losses NE --

Kelly is winning now - give him a full plate and your looking at 2008 ,2009 ,2012 type seasons that he had here and @ UCINN -- patience mon frere's patience

Things are trending nicely
 
Originally posted by dannydionne1983:

Sal I have seen perse and a few others call into question the ability of the program to recruit high-level talent. Perse and a few others have come to their own conclusion that Notre Dame doesn't recruit the players to be able to play championship football I went and compiled a list showing the composite rankings for the full roster going into 2015 33 four stars on Offense 22 four stars and 3 five stars on Defense for a total of 58 four and five star players TIFWIWO



Originally posted by dannydionne1983:

Sal I have seen perse and a few others call into question the ability of the program to recruit high-level talent. Perse and a few others have come to their own conclusion that Notre Dame doesn't recruit the players to be able to play championship football I went and compiled a list showing the composite rankings for the full roster going into 2015 33 four stars on Offense 22 four stars and 3 five stars on Defense for a total of 58 four and five star players TIFWIW



Danny I have JS Redfield as 5 's on d who is the third ?
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
If Ishaq comes back he was a 5*, at least one service had Morgan a 5* but I don't believe he was a composite 5*.
 
88ND
whether or not one agrees with you : excellent post!

your opinion but you make good points and state the ideas well.
 
Originally posted by continuallyirish:



Originally posted by dannydionne1983:
Bodizephax posted on 2/10/2015...



I was listening to power hour on ISD and one of them said that Notre Dame has had three straight deep quality recruiting classes for the first time since Holtz/Davie. I have been saying that three straight is the key for ND to get over the hump for a while now.

If Brian Kelly can't win at least ten games this year I am off the Coach Kelly Bandwagon. I think the Irish will though!

Go Irish!!
Lets hit em while we got the muscle!!

Bodi I am not on Coach Kelly Bandwagon I don't root for the coach, I root for the team and the players on it.Hell, if Perse was the head coach, I would still root for them, I just feel like Coach Kelly has been doing this so long and with so much success in his coaching career, he must know how coach at a high level this year I do agree is a make or break year for him with the talent he has this year if he can't win with this team then it isn't happening for him here
Click to expand...
Guy was 12-0 2 yrs ago started this yr 8-0 pre injuries --

one team in the NFL finished the season after playoffs w less than 5 losses NE --

Kelly is winning now - give him a full plate and your looking at 2008 ,2009 ,2012 type seasons that he had here and @ UCINN -- patience mon frere's patience

Things are trending nicely
Click to expand...
So because only one team in the NFL finished with less than 5 losses, that somehow means something to Notre Dame? My God, you have the worst sense of logic and reasoning of anyone on this board.

Never mind that NFL teams play at least 16 games......
 
Ishaq was indeed a 5 star on Rivals. As was Sam Young and as was James Aldridge.

the value of the stars falls by the wayside once 3 years of college ball are completed; by that time you should have a better understanding of the potential to development.

Morgan as not a composite 5. And it is too early to grade Morgan as a college player.

Let's see what the final standings are at the end of '15,season and then compare them to what the trend based on recruiting has predicted.
For the most part the teams with the best talent finish close to the top; assuming the coaching is not Fubar

ALL the above relates to the '15 season - NOT ND per se!

My expectations for ND are that the offense has great talent; it hinges on the revampted OL gelling and as usual solving the delemma at QB.
The problems on defense are inexperience and uncertainty as to what some players are as far as their development. The game plans should focus on TOP to keep the defense off the field. (2 teams that will be problematic are GT and Navy; W's there will determine how the season unfolds)
And coaching gaffaws that out right cost wins cannot continue to happen.



This post was edited on 2/11 12:25 PM by perseverare
 
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