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OT: I am now done with the NFL

Are the protesters asking folks to boycott a specific business ?

They are doing the opposite. They are making generalizations, and much of it based on inaccurate information.

The real problem here is what you are exhibiting. Nobody is challenging the players' positions. If you want to deal with this rationally and objectively, then when any of these players are interviewed, the reporters should ask the players challenging questions, questioning the core of their protests. Additionally, the media should be fact-checking any of the claims made by the protesters and see if their grievances are based on factual evidence, or their own biases and misconceptions.
 
It's been 150 years since the end of slavery in this country, and the black race still lags literally every other large ethnic group in their collective success in our capitalistic system. This of course fuels the myriad of social and criminal justice system issues that the players are protesting. Liberal whites seem only too eager to accept responsibility for this, and conservative whites get tired of being blamed for all the perceived social ills in our country, and generally embrace the mantra of individual responsibility as the cure all. The loudest black voices are the ones given voice by the mainstream media, so most of us only hear the Sharptons and Jacksons who race to be first in line calling any and all black white tragedies the fault of whites. It's way past time to have real dialogue on white black relations in this country. If the objectionable disrespecting actions of our pro athletes and the asinine tweets of our narcissistic leader somehow bring this about, then we all win. Not holding my breath, but always hopeful.
 
It's been 150 years since the end of slavery in this country, and the black race still lags literally every other large ethnic group in their collective success in our capitalistic system. This of course fuels the myriad of social and criminal justice system issues that the players are protesting. Liberal whites seem only too eager to accept responsibility for this, and conservative whites get tired of being blamed for all the perceived social ills in our country, and generally embrace the mantra of individual responsibility as the cure all. The loudest black voices are the ones given voice by the mainstream media, so most of us only hear the Sharptons and Jacksons who race to be first in line calling any and all black white tragedies the fault of whites. It's way past time to have real dialogue on white black relations in this country. If the objectionable disrespecting actions of our pro athletes and the asinine tweets of our narcissistic leader somehow bring this about, then we all win. Not holding my breath, but always hopeful.

Great post. A myriad of solid points. The result of someone who hasn't moved more right of right in response to the left moving more left of left. Thanks for maybe the best read today Texl.
 
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It's been 150 years since the end of slavery in this country, and the black race still lags literally every other large ethnic group in their collective success in our capitalistic system. This of course fuels the myriad of social and criminal justice system issues that the players are protesting. Liberal whites seem only too eager to accept responsibility for this, and conservative whites get tired of being blamed for all the perceived social ills in our country, and generally embrace the mantra of individual responsibility as the cure all. The loudest black voices are the ones given voice by the mainstream media, so most of us only hear the Sharptons and Jacksons who race to be first in line calling any and all black white tragedies the fault of whites. It's way past time to have real dialogue on white black relations in this country. If the objectionable disrespecting actions of our pro athletes and the asinine tweets of our narcissistic leader somehow bring this about, then we all win. Not holding my breath, but always hopeful.

What I generally love about sports is that it is a theatre in which we cast race and politics aside. I've coached far too many players from all races, political backgrounds and socìo-economic groups to paint people with a single brush. I've met too many good people from all walks to group people together. I pay attention to invidiuals. Not groups.

I'm sure everyone has their own anecdotal example of the story I'm about tell, but It's story like these that keep me fighting a day when people will stop pointing fingers.

In my second year coaching the high school level, we had a player transfer to our team. Excellent player, coming to a team of mostly middle class and lower middle class kids. The team composition was probably about 40 white kids, 5 black kids, 3 Arab kids and 2 Asian kids. I remember it being a really close team. The parents on the team were close. The kids rode shared too and from practice and the out of town kids often stayed at their friends (on the team) houses night before games, just be closer to the guys... Anyways, I don't disclose the name of the player who transferred into the program because he went on to start at the NCAA level for a fairly reputable program big time football fans on this board wpuldnknow who he is and I know he wouldn't want that.

That said, here is the story. He transferred to our program because he, his sister and his mom moved from another city. He was eligible to play right away because they had been abused by a step father and she essentially midnight moved them away from that setting to get away from him. The league would normally make him sit out as a transfer, but the coaches agreed that it was a special set of circumstances and they voted unanimously in favour to let him play immediately.

This kid happened to be black. They basically had nothing. They didn't bring any of their possessions, but they admittedly did not have much in the first place. They actually spent the first week here in a shelter, and she got two jobs (a coffee shop where she worked 6am-3pm and a restaurant where she served 4pm-9pm as a server) in order to get them a small place. They were very open about not having much, but they were proud people and weren't asking for any handouts. This kid participated in all of summer camp with us wearing terrible, old, ratty cleats and the same school issued workout clothes (from his previous school) every day. They couldn't afford anything new. He quickly fit in with out guys though and made friends. His mom could never come practice like the other parents because she was working, so somebody always made sure he had a ride home. His sister actually became our water girl just so she could get a ride home after practice too. As the season got closer, the mom talked to our head coach and asked if she could pay the fee to play ($300 per kid) in installment throughout the season. We were willing to wave the fee all together because of their situation, but she was determined to pay. The mom's on the team had a little council they used to fundraise for our team and they invited her to be a part of it, but because of her work schedule she had to decline. It was more important that she be there on Game Day (her lone day off each week) to support the team. The mom's wound up putting together $2500 for him going into the season. It was money for new cleats, some new swag that all the kids like to buy, lunch money when we were on the road and snack money for hotels, uniform money for schools (all our kids wore uniforms) etc, etc... They accepted the money, reluctantly, and nobody brought it up again. He was just another guy on the team and everyone treated him, his mom and his sister like part of the family.. He wound up being one of our two best players. We wound up losing a tough game in the provincial semi-final and he wound up getting a full ride.

Before that happened though, we had a post season meeting as a team (parents included) to talk about winter running and lifting and some other clerical issues. Half way through the meeting, about 25 pizzas show up, with salad, soft drinks and desert. We didn't order it. We were having an awards dinner for the team a couple weeks later... This family ordered it for the team. This normally quiet kid got up in front of the group and thanked everyone for the money they had given him and assured the people in the room that he had bought only what he needed for school, football and he had bought mom and sister a Christmas present. I remember he specifically stated that there had been $768 left of the money they had generously given him. He turned it into a team feast to thank everyone and told the group that it was probably the first time in his life he felt like he was part of something where he wasn't being judged... There is more to the story, but That's important stuff.

Those have been my experiences with race relations, so I tend to be less extreme in picking sides than others.
 
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It's been 150 years since the end of slavery in this country, and the black race still lags literally every other large ethnic group in their collective success in our capitalistic system. This of course fuels the myriad of social and criminal justice system issues that the players are protesting. Liberal whites seem only too eager to accept responsibility for this, and conservative whites get tired of being blamed for all the perceived social ills in our country, and generally embrace the mantra of individual responsibility as the cure all. The loudest black voices are the ones given voice by the mainstream media, so most of us only hear the Sharptons and Jacksons who race to be first in line calling any and all black white tragedies the fault of whites. It's way past time to have real dialogue on white black relations in this country. If the objectionable disrespecting actions of our pro athletes and the asinine tweets of our narcissistic leader somehow bring this about, then we all win. Not holding my breath, but always hopeful.

I am sure we all interact with people who are a different race. I do all the time. I drilling all over the country so our clients are of multi ethnic groups.
I respect each and every individual as an individual not a race.

That's all we can do as individuals I mean if you think about it who's going to be the arbiter for each race to speak for each race when each race believes differently within their own race.

I know a few black conservative, and I know a few white liberals.
I know which one I would have more in common with regardless of their race.

Each side can bring out its poor and downtrodden . It's go getters, and achiever's
It's success's it's failures.

it boils down to the individual to be an individual, and not a race. If the individual decides to be a race then they will carry the burden of that race, and all races carry burden's.
 
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It's disappointing to see the same deflection and distraction on an ND board as can be found on the Rivals MB. I understand that Fox/talk radio are wildly spinning their gears, trying to spin this as football players disrespecting the Anthem, or conflating what happened yesterday with Kap's kneeling (and whatever it is he's complaining about), but the truth is that the NFL is protesting President Trump's behavior at his Friday rally in Alabama. You may disagree with the protesters' choice of venue, or you may simply prefer Trump to the NFL, but at least understand what the protest is all about.
 
It's disappointing to see the same deflection and distraction on an ND board as can be found on the Rivals MB. I understand that Fox/talk radio are wildly spinning their gears, trying to spin this as football players disrespecting the Anthem, or conflating what happened yesterday with Kap's kneeling (and whatever it is he's complaining about), but the truth is that the NFL is protesting President Trump's behavior at his Friday rally in Alabama. You may disagree with the protesters' choice of venue, or you may simply prefer Trump to the NFL, but at least understand what the protest is all about.
That's only half true so at least understand what the protest is really all about
 
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A WTF moment:

Just read that at Gillette Stadium, home of the Patriots, that when they ran out of bottled water charged customers $4.50 per paper cup for water right out of the tap!

That in and of itself is enough to keep fans away.

Imagine attending a Pro game..............

* Fighting your way through traffic jams to get a parking place.

* $30 or more for parking then walking a mile through human traffic to finally get to your seat.

* $100 per seat

* $50 for refreshments, hot dogs, beers, pop corn, etc.

* You stand and remove your hat for the anthem and watch the players take a knee.

* Wait in line to use the restroom.

* Time to leave and fight the human and auto traffic again.

* But wait, after yelling you are thirsty and would like a drink of water and have to pay $4.50 for tap water!

Hey...........you just spent $184.50 (plus the cost of gas) X 2 = $369 for two people to come away disgusted and PO'ed. Just imagine all the other things you could have been doing that would have been fun and would have left you feeling happy! :D
 
A WTF moment:

Just read that at Gillette Stadium, home of the Patriots, that when they ran out of bottled water charged customers $4.50 per paper cup for water right out of the tap!

That in and of itself is enough to keep fans away.

Imagine attending a Pro game..............

* Fighting your way through traffic jams to get a parking place.

* $30 or more for parking then walking a mile through human traffic to finally get to your seat.

* $100 per seat

* $50 for refreshments, hot dogs, beers, pop corn, etc.

* You stand and remove your hat for the anthem and watch the players take a knee.

* Wait in line to use the restroom.

* Time to leave and fight the human and auto traffic again.

* But wait, after yelling you are thirsty and would like a drink of water and have to pay $4.50 for tap water!

Hey...........you just spent $184.50 (plus the cost of gas) X 2 = $369 for two people to come away disgusted and PO'ed. Just imagine all the other things you could have been doing that would have been fun and would have left you feeling happy! :D
Well done
 
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A WTF moment:

Just read that at Gillette Stadium, home of the Patriots, that when they ran out of bottled water charged customers $4.50 per paper cup for water right out of the tap!

That in and of itself is enough to keep fans away.

Imagine attending a Pro game..............

* Fighting your way through traffic jams to get a parking place.

* $30 or more for parking then walking a mile through human traffic to finally get to your seat.

* $100 per seat

* $50 for refreshments, hot dogs, beers, pop corn, etc.

* You stand and remove your hat for the anthem and watch the players take a knee.

* Wait in line to use the restroom.

* Time to leave and fight the human and auto traffic again.

* But wait, after yelling you are thirsty and would like a drink of water and have to pay $4.50 for tap water!

Hey...........you just spent $184.50 (plus the cost of gas) X 2 = $369 for two people to come away disgusted and PO'ed. Just imagine all the other things you could have been doing that would have been fun and would have left you feeling happy! :D
Well yeah but if you are a Pats fan you kinda deserve it.
 
how is it not true ?

Because the CBA simply isn't constructed the way you believe that it is. NFL players are all subject to a code of conduct. It's part of all their contracts. Basically, it means the NFL can fire/discipline players whose conduct is detrimental to the league. It's fairly open-ended.

Your theory is that since there isn't a specific rule mandating players stand for the pledge, the NFL can't punish players for not standing. That's not true. It comes under the broader code of conduct.

That doesn't mean the NFL should fire or discipline the players. It's just means that your theory that they can't is inaccurate.
 
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Because the CBA simply isn't constructed the way you believe that it is. NFL players are all subject to a code of conduct. It's part of all their contracts. Basically, it means the NFL can fire/discipline players whose conduct is detrimental to the league. It's fairly open-ended.

Your theory is that since there isn't a specific rule mandating players stand for the pledge, the NFL can't punish players for not standing. That's not true. It comes under the broader code of conduct.

That doesn't mean the NFL should fire or discipline the players. It's just means that your theory that they can't is inaccurate.
of course they can. i thought that was understood. that action would be subject to the grievance and arbitration procedures in which the players would most certainly win. i've taken many collective bargaining classes over the years and am very well versed on their workings. my point was that they would not knowing full well it would never hold up. the conduct code section of the nfl CBA is vague in many aspects. It is standard language in all NFL contracts. Given all the off filled incidents by NFL players over the years how many resulted in termination ? You really think a peaceful silent protest qualifies ? Any and all actions taken by owners against players is subjected to the grievance section of the CBA. I apologize if I was not specific enough.
 
Because the CBA simply isn't constructed the way you believe that it is. NFL players are all subject to a code of conduct. It's part of all their contracts. Basically, it means the NFL can fire/discipline players whose conduct is detrimental to the league. It's fairly open-ended.

Your theory is that since there isn't a specific rule mandating players stand for the pledge, the NFL can't punish players for not standing. That's not true. It comes under the broader code of conduct.

That doesn't mean the NFL should fire or discipline the players. It's just means that your theory that they can't is inaccurate.

If the NFL started handing out fines or firing players over this, there would be a strike.
 
of course they can. i thought that was understood. that action would be subject to the grievance and arbitration procedures in which the players would most certainly win. i've taken many collective bargaining classes over the years and am very well versed on their workings. my point was that they would not knowing full well it would never hold up. the conduct code section of the nfl CBA is vague in many aspects. It is standard language in all NFL contracts. Given all the off filled incidents by NFL players over the years how many resulted in termination ? You really think a peaceful silent protest qualifies ? Any and all actions taken by owners against players is subjected to the grievance section of the CBA. I apologize if I was not specific enough.

I don't care what classes you've taken.

What you need to do is start reading what people actually say, and not what you think they say. This whole conversation started out because I said:

Actually, they don't have the right to protest. Your right to protest only applies to the government, not to the private sector.

Then you replied:

Sure they do. Their conduct like it or not is not a violation of the labor agreement between the league and the players union

Well, that's the entire problem. The players don't have the right to protest. The right and the ability to protest are two completely different things. You are talking about the latter. I'm talking about the former.

If the players had the right to protest, then the CBA wouldn't even be a factor. If the players had that right, then you wouldn't even be able to construct the CBA in a way that could possibly allow the owners to punish the players for kneeling. (As a comparison, the NBA does have a rule that players must stand for the anthem. If this was against the players' rights, then the NBA wouldn't be able to have that rule in the first place.)

If the NFL started handing out fines or firing players over this, there would be a strike.

Irrelevant to my point.
 
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In the new LA Chargers parking area there is a sign that reads Tailgating area and General Parking $100
 
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I don't care what classes you've taken.

What you need to do is start reading what people actually say, and not what you think they say. This whole conversation started out because I said:



Then you replied:



Well, that's the entire problem. The players don't have the right to protest. The right and the ability to protest are two completely different things. You are talking about the latter. I'm talking about the former.

If the players had the right to protest, then the CBA wouldn't even be a factor. If the players had that right, then you wouldn't even be able to construct the CBA in a way that could possibly allow the owners to punish the players for kneeling. (As a comparison, the NBA does have a rule that players must stand for the anthem. If this was against the players' rights, then the NBA wouldn't be able to have that rule in the first place.)



Irrelevant to my point.

Relevant as to one reason why the NFL is not going to fine or fire players. Carry on with your semantic debate.
 
I was never arguing the NFL was going to fire or fine players. That's not even a part of my argument, hence irrelevant to my point.

Yes, yes: "right to vs ability to vs right to require employees make political supporting gesture".
 
Yes, yes: "right to vs ability to vs right to require employees make political supporting gesture".

They aren't requiring the employees to make a politically supporting gesture. They are requiring the employees not to make the business look bad.

(Although they actually aren't requiring the employees to do this. That's just the basis if they DID require it.)

That brings up another point. The NBA does require players to stand for the anthem. So, it will be interesting to hear how the protest supporters feel about the NBA and its rule.
 
Copied from the other thread....

Thoughts on Titans WR Rishard Matthews coming out today saying that he will kneel until the President issues an apology for calling the NFL players "SOBs"?

Matthews' brother was killed in Afghanistan serving in the United States military and his father is a 23 year military vet. Apparently the family supports his prostest. Are they entitled, disrespectful, scum as well? Curious what the board thinks.

And thank you to both members of the Matthews family for your service and sacrifice towards the betterment of humanity.
 
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Copied from the other thread....

Thoughts on Titans WR Rishard Matthews coming out today saying that he will kneel until the President issues an apology for calling the NFL players "SOBs"?

Matthews' brother was killed in Afghanistan serving in the United States military and his father is a 23 year military vet. Apparently the family supports his prostest. Are they entitled, disrespectful, scum as well? Curious what the board thinks.

And thank you to both members of the Matthews family for your service and sacrifice towards the betterment of humanity.
Parents supporting a son nothing really groundbreaking
 
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Parents supporting a son nothing really groundbreaking

Of course not... I'm simply posting another voice in the discussion. Many people have said that the protests are a slap in the face and extremely disresptful to those whom have served and died for the country... What about a family that has both served and sacrificed dearly, such as the Matthews family?

A lot of extremely grey area when talking about this topic.
 
I don't care what classes you've taken.

What you need to do is start reading what people actually say, and not what you think they say. This whole conversation started out because I said:



Then you replied:



Well, that's the entire problem. The players don't have the right to protest. The right and the ability to protest are two completely different things. You are talking about the latter. I'm talking about the former.

If the players had the right to protest, then the CBA wouldn't even be a factor. If the players had that right, then you wouldn't even be able to construct the CBA in a way that could possibly allow the owners to punish the players for kneeling. (As a comparison, the NBA does have a rule that players must stand for the anthem. If this was against the players' rights, then the NBA wouldn't be able to have that rule in the first place.)



Irrelevant to my point.
Actually I think you are the one confused they will always have the right to protest but their ability to do so is limited by their contract. Either way the semantic involved with interchanging right and ability is creating a confusing dialogue that doesn't really function to give either of yall the best ground.
 
I don't know about anyone else but I never get tired of watching Tom Brady. Its too bad that he was a skunk bear but he's a lot of fun to watch. I guess I'll take DIP's place in front of the TV watching the NFL.
 
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Actually I think you are the one confused they will always have the right to protest but their ability to do so is limited by their contract. Either way the semantic involved with interchanging right and ability is creating a confusing dialogue that doesn't really function to give either of yall the best ground.

No, I'm not confused at all. If you have a right, a contract still doesn't take it away. (For example, you can't sign a contract that makes someone a slave. The contract itself would not be legal.)

The real problem is, some of you don't know what rights actually are.
 
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Of course not... I'm simply posting another voice in the discussion. Many people have said that the protests are a slap in the face and extremely disresptful to those whom have served and died for the country... What about a family that has both served and sacrificed dearly, such as the Matthews family?

A lot of extremely grey area when talking about this topic.

A lot of grey areas indeed.
Now you will have other gold star families including mine that might feel different and I would hate to think pitting them two
against one another will come out of this

President Trump doesn't himself no favors again though he was a voice for what a lot of people were thinking it just became more fuel for the fire

Also at the beginning of this topic you were making a statement that the present should should be out there calling for people's jobs
I hope you don't believe I was being obstinate, I was just extremely upset that I spent $2,500 for something I'll never use and one hell of a hangover.
Mind you I don't even drink a lot just have an excellent day with my wife at the Husker game with tickets given to me by my office manager with really great seats great people around us and then the Irish having an excellent evening.

With a clear mind I do agree the President shouldn't be calling for people's jobs plain and simply not the government's place. to do that.....that's what Congress does (NAFTA).
 
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A lot of grey areas indeed.
Now you will have other gold star families including mine that might feel different and I would hate to think pitting them two
against one another will come out of this

President Trump doesn't himself no favors again though he was a voice for what a lot of people were thinking it just became more fuel for the fire

Also at the beginning of this topic you were making a statement that the present should should be out there calling for people's jobs
I hope you don't believe I was being obstinate, there were people who came just extremely upset that I spent $2,500 for something I'll never use and one hell of a hangover.
Mind you I don't even drink a lot just have an excellent day with my wife at the Husker game with tickets given to me by my office manager with really great seats great people around us and then the Irish having an excellent evening.

With a clear mind I do agree the President should be calling for people's jobs plain and simply not the government's place. to do that.....that's what Congress does (NAFTA).

Two members of my family died serving in WWII as well. Two more survived and one went back to war for our freedoms in North Korea. Uncle flew helicopters through the streets of Ireland in the fight against terrorism. Mom spent 20 years on two separate NORAD bases serving North America. Now I'm doing my part to try and keep our values intact for future generations.

I'm with you DIP. I'm not American, but we do have a lot in common in other ways. I struggle deeply with this one too and don't want to see western values torn apart by all of this. Nothing but respect for you man... This is a tough one. I'm sure It's difficult for the Matthews family as well.
 
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Two members of my family died serving in WWII as well. Two more survived and one went back to war for our freedoms in North Korea. Uncle flew helicopters through the streets of Ireland in the fight against terrorism. Mom spent 20 years on two separate NORAD bases serving North America. Now I'm doing my part to try and keep our values intact for future generations.

I'm with you DIP. I'm not American, but we do have a lot in common in other ways. I struggle deeply with this one too and don't want to see western values torn apart by all of this. Nothing but respect for you man... This is a tough one. I'm sure It's difficult for the Matthews family as well.

With no end in sight, but total respect for you
 
The seat is yours

21766366_2033995893278045_7349343318577030051_n.jpg
 
Ebbets Field, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Compton/Watts, CUNY, Detroit, St Louis, MTA, NYC Projects (NYCHA), South Bronx, Gary Indiana, and now the NFL. Another spot in the junk heap.
 
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