High talent Recruiting still Avoids ND
- Thread starter theskibro
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I can see why people are accusing you of complaining. And it doesn't have anything to do with reading comprehension, either. When you put your "2 cents" in, you come up with some pretty negative theories about why this is happening, and that sounds like complaining with some plausible deniability added in. Your saying that you're not complaining sounds like "not to be mean, but [insert mean comment here]."
Whatever. Why hasn't Notre Dame landed three or four 5-stars this year? I'm reminded of a time when I was six years old. I turned on the hot water in the bathroom, and found it wasn't getting hot. I left it running, went down to tell my father, and he said "let it run a little longer." I protested "but I did that, and it still isn't getting hot." To which he responded, with a bit of a grin, "let it run a little longer." I tried that a couple more times, and he kept saying the same thing. So, I went upstairs, and sure enough the water was hot.
Whatever. Why hasn't Notre Dame landed three or four 5-stars this year? I'm reminded of a time when I was six years old. I turned on the hot water in the bathroom, and found it wasn't getting hot. I left it running, went down to tell my father, and he said "let it run a little longer." I protested "but I did that, and it still isn't getting hot." To which he responded, with a bit of a grin, "let it run a little longer." I tried that a couple more times, and he kept saying the same thing. So, I went upstairs, and sure enough the water was hot.
1) Sometimes. Look more closely.
2) Then don't feed into it. You're as free to IGNORE what I write as I am to WRITE it. That's what I do with 95% of what you write.
The ball's in YOUR court, not mine.
Honestly, do you think that's a very wise plan?
Seems a little ONE-SIDED to me.
Think of the captain of, say, a three-masted barquentine. He takes on an able crew but is light on NAVIGATION. They hit a storm. Believe me, that's not a good look. I've been through both versions of that: on teams and at sea.
If people think Freeman is going to THRIVE on the basis of KUMBAYA RECRUTING and CONSENSUS/DELEGATION COACHING -- WITHOUT A FIRM TOP-DOWN GUIDING HAND -- they may wish to THINK AGAIN. I can't think of any college or pro coach -- past or present -- who isn't or wasn't a hard-ass, top-down guy.
Show me Freeman's FEAR-INSPIRING, NASTY SIDE, and maybe I'll feel more confident about him.
Personally I think to a large degree that day is over.
I'm not saying I agree with it being over but I just think we're seeing a new era dawning.
I think the latest era of young HC's are going to be recruiting machines and big on being the face of the program via the various media outlets while they let their OC's and DC's manage the X's and the O's.
When building staffs if you are a better coach than a recruiter you're going to struggle to get work.
I'm not saying I agree with it being over but I just think we're seeing a new era dawning.
I think the latest era of young HC's are going to be recruiting machines and big on being the face of the program via the various media outlets while they let their OC's and DC's manage the X's and the O's.
When building staffs if you are a better coach than a recruiter you're going to struggle to get work.
With due respect, I think your image of what it takes to be a successful HC is a little dated. There are many successful head football coaches who have eschewed the Vince Lombardi style. Pete Carroll and Andy Reid are two that quickly come to mind among present day coaches. Dick Vermeil and Marv Levy had success without being hard asses. Jimmy Valvano at NC State certainly had success at NC State while employing a lighter touch. Perhaps the hard-ass, top-down approach is still the rule rather than the exception, but by no means is it the only path to success.
I once served in the Navy under successive commanding officers whose leadership styles were polar opposites. The first was a screamer who seemed to feel the need to start his day by chewing out someone's ass. He commanded by fear. While he got the assigned missions done, pretty much the entire crew despised the guy. After 18 months of misery under his command, he rotated off to a new assignment. His replacement couldn't have been any more different. He listened to what his officers had to say and approached missions with a team approach. Ultimately he gave the orders, but he made you feel like you were respected. The crew loved him, and would have done anything for him. And lest you think his leadership style was a recipe for failure, our ship became the most decorated ship in the squadron. IMO, while fear may work, ultimately it is a poor motivator.
That's one tough problem you're facing. How to remove my posts from your consciousness.
You can't stand them, but then you can't stop reading them. But honestly? I'm the last guy to complain to about this.
I simply can't help you.
I hear you, but why aren't you saying you agree with "that day" being over. Even though YOU THINK it's over. I'm hearing what -- a reservation? And if so, might RESIGNATION also not be a part of that? I'm not asserting, just asking.
Me, I have plenty of reservations. Here's one of them:
While you can often run a corporation with a SALESMAN which is what a "recruiter" is, I'm not sure you want one in the role of BATTLEFIELD COMMANDER. For that, you want someone experienced who is -- relatively speaking -- not only JUDICIOUS, SAVVY and COOL UNDER PRESSURE, but who is also A KILLER and not afraid of driving his own people EXTREMELY HARD when required.
Football is more than recruiting, it's also personnel management under fire, courage in the face of adversity and the ability to make CRITICAL, REAL-TIME DECISIONS. It's its own BATTLEFIELD.
Are you aware of the SHOCK experienced by the 86 ND team when Holtz came in and started running HIS practices vs. what they'd become used to under Faust? They DIDN'T LIKE IT. But in three years, they had an NC.
I want to see the BATTLEFIELD COMMANDER side of Freeman. The guy who sets the tone not only in terms of TEAM-BUILDING, but also as per a) TOUGH DECISION MAKING UNDER FIRE and b) the EXERCISE of PROPER AUTHORITY in TOP-DOWN COMMAND situations. For that, you can't nominate one of your assistants as MAYOR OF THE PALACE. It simply must come from YOU.
Yes, today's coaches must be good SALESMEN/RECRUITERS. But they also have to MANAGE and COACH even as there's significant delegation.
So far, what I'm seeing is the Jimmy Stewart Mr. Smith Goes to Washington version of Freeman. I want to see the John McCain/Robert Mueller/Barry McCaffrey version. I'm not saying it's THERE OR IT ISN'T. I just want to SEE IT. Till then, ALL BETS ARE OFF.
AT least for me.
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Thanks for sharing. And thank you for your service. 2 ways to lead: by love or by fear. Which is more effective? Who knows?
As for Freeman, I do have a slight worry he is another Gerry Faust, Charlie Strong, Ron Zook, Willie Taggart, etc. Guys who are beloved and you can trust your grandmother with them, but just don't get the job done on the field. I'm withholding judgment for now, as time will tell.
I hear you, BUT . . .
If fear works -- as you just claimed it may -- then it's NOT -- CATEGORICALLY -- a poor motivator.
Still, I'm, by no means, arguing in favor of ALL FEAR ALL THE TIME. Or recommending Captain Bligh-type TYRANNY. It's just that the whole thrust of Freeman's ongoing coronation commentary has DWELT RELENTLESSLY on his almost SOCIAL-WORKER-LEVEL skills and sensitivities as though he were some kind of BENEVOLENT COMMUNITY ORGANIZER rather than the TOP DOG in a sporting enterprise COMMITTED TO INFLICTING INTIMIDATING PAIN ON ONE'S OPPONENT.
We still are talking about FOOTBALL, right?
Does the man -- as a coach and a leader -- have a KICK-ASS component and the ability to apply TOP-DOWN COMMAND UNDER PRESSURE? Can he make reasonably good decisions under those circumstances and manage people to the point that he will IMPOSE HIS WILL on them to sacrifice themselves for the GOOD OF THE TEAM -- should that become necessary?
One doesn't have to be Vince Lombardi, but THOSE KINDS OF THINGS one still has to do. At least if you want to compete for NC's. Faust couldn't do them. Holtz could.
The world hasn't changed THAT MUCH. And a little more decisive leadership a la Leahy or Holtz -- or even Kelly -- is, in my view, NEVER A BAD THING. In any place at any time. But then, I worked for a guy who was an Army Ranger and came ashore in the first wave on D-Day and then went back in and landed with MacArthur at Inchon, Korea, some years later. He gave you only so much time to make money then CUT YOU. He's in his 90's now and still at his desk.
So, maybe I expect TOO MUCH of people.
I'm just anxious to see what kind of FIRE Freeman has in his BELLY. Right now, it's a BIG UNKNOWN. But the glowingly POLITCALLY CORRECT TERMS in which he's being described have not only AROUSED MY SUSPICIONS but also triggered my IRONY DETECTOR. He's already become a kind of SYMBOL without yet having coached one REGULAR SEASON game.
You're the Kool Aid man. And by self-description. Tell me there isn't a lot of it being passed around now.
You mean, POST.
And another 8 to 10 word response from you.
Suit yourself. You'll have plenty more opportunities.
You should look at the level of IRATE DEFENSIVENESS my posts provoke in you. What's with THAT? Do you feel I'm ATTACKING you? Your VALUE SYSTEM?
Because it has much more to do with YOU than with ME. Nothing I write is ABOUT you or ADDRESSED to you. Frankly, you've never written anything I've felt interested enough in to respond to. You're all RETURN and NO SERVE. Where's the MATCH in that?
And if you don't like something, you just CONTEMPTUOUSLY DISMISS IT with NO EXPLANATION. Has that been a useful M.O. for you?
What has you so THREATENED, and what are you trying to PROTECT?
Is Notre Dame some sort of INVIOLABLE RELIGION to you? You brook NO CRITICISM of it.
Last time I looked, it was a pretty HETERODOX world.
Do you want to know what I REALLY THINK of Notre Dame?
JUST ASK.
Because I'm old school about the game. Believed in the process of working your way up the depth chart via the redshirt year to 3rd team and some special teams to 2nd team and a few more snaps to becoming a 2 year starter .
That day is over. The kid of today isn't interested in that process.
He'll just go somewhere else.
While we are all anxiously waiting to see what kind of head coach Marcus Freeman will be when it comes to success on the field of play, I don't share the same worries you apparently harbor about Freeman's ability to motivate his team.
Back when Marcus Freeman was hired last December, Freeman addressed in an article he wrote whether being considered a "player's coach" meant he wouldn't be tough on his players when the circumstances required it. Here is what Freeman wrote:
“I think there’s a misconception about a players’ coach, that Oh, the players like him — he’s their buddy,” Freeman wrote. “And my players know this: just because I don’t walk around like I have to put fear in their hearts, that doesn’t mean the demands aren’t going to be extremely high.
“You can be very demanding, and still make people feel good and still make people feel important — as long as they believe that you have their best interest at heart.”
Here is an article that appeared on BGI on the subject:
InsideNDSports - Friday Five: Marcus Freeman and being a ‘players’ coach’
Notre Dame’s new head coach has some thoughts on a popular and sometimes overused term.
notredame.rivals.com
More recently there was an interesting article that appeared in SI analyzing Freeman's leadership qualities, looking at them through the lens of Bill Polian's criteria for hiring a successful head coach. Here is that article:
Looking At Marcus Freeman Through Bill Polian's Criteria For Hiring A Successful Coach
A look at how Marcus Freeman has fared thus far through the lens of Hall of Famer Bill Polian's criteria for a successful coachh
www.si.com
I found Polian's question asking whether the coach is a teacher or a lecturer to be quite illuminating. At his core, Marcus Freeman is a teacher. Brian Kelly, on the other hand, for all his successes on the field--and there have been many--was, and always will be, a lecturer. Give me the teacher every time.
Ultimately Marcus Freeman is going to coach in a style that meshes with who he is. He cannot be something he is not.
I enjoy your posts 443, keep being you!
Freeman was a linebacker in college, surely he has that nasty side. Perhaps he speaks softly and carries a big stick. I don't get a Tyronne Willingham lack of nasty from him. I get the vibe discipline is key, he will tell you kindly what must or must not be done, if neither happen then consequences WILL happen. He then backs up what he says. He sure seems to run a tight ship with his wife and 6 six kids - impressive.
What was your roll on the schooner?
I hear what you're saying, but I'm missing your point. Are you referring to Freeman's recruiting, his coaching style? Or are you making a separate point about merely the players. It's not clear to me.
Thanks for the SHOUTOUT!
I've thought about the linebacker role myself. But I've had difficulty squaring it with the ALMOST TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE PERSONA Freeman radiates. I'm sometimes not sure IF IT'S HIM or some Hollywood guy PLAYING HIM. But I'm taking your comments on board.
The Ohio State game should tell A LOT THOUGH. Like being thrown into the BATTLE OF THE SOMME right off the boat. Freeman played at OSU, ND is a two-touchdown underdog, the fans there BEHAVE BADLY, and it's the guy's FIRST REGULAR SEASON GAME.
BRUTAL ASSIGNMENT.
My role on the SCHOONER was INJURED PASSENGER.
We hit a storm in the Western Med in November of 17, I believe, near Gibraltar as we were heading out into the Atlantic on our way to Casablanca. We were approaching 25 degree rolls, and dishes and glasses were crashing all night in the galley and dining room.
One old German got thrown out of his chair and brought down the entire dinner table. A few of us got banged up with several people needing stitches. I was repeatedly thrown from my berth, and my back spasmed pretty badly. I had trouble walking the rest of the voyage. My wife got seriously seasick, but my 24 year old son enjoyed it all immensely.
I'm NOT a sailor, but I've sailed as a passenger on a number of vessels -- mostly 3-masted but on a 5-master as well -- in the Med, Baltic and Caribbean. I've gotten to know the captains and have even sat in on a navigation class or two. Several of the skippers were UKRAINIAN, and I wonder what they're doing RIGHT NOW.
One of them remarried my wife and me -- I guess it was a vows renewal -- somewhere between Corfu and Sicily.
I've sailed each of the Med's 8 or 9 separate seas but am partial to the Aegean where in the 90's I'd meet every June with my Greek, Israeli and Lebanese clients. After our business, we'd spend time on the water.
Nothing like the Aegean in June.
Thanks for taking the time to ENGAGE on the subject.While we are all anxiously waiting to see what kind of head coach Marcus Freeman will be when it comes to success on the field of play, I don't share the same worries you apparently harbor about Freeman's ability to motivate his team.
Back when Marcus Freeman was hired last December, Freeman addressed in an article he wrote whether being considered a "player's coach" meant he wouldn't be tough on his players when the circumstances required it. Here is what Freeman wrote:
“I think there’s a misconception about a players’ coach, that Oh, the players like him — he’s their buddy,” Freeman wrote. “And my players know this: just because I don’t walk around like I have to put fear in their hearts, that doesn’t mean the demands aren’t going to be extremely high.
“You can be very demanding, and still make people feel good and still make people feel important — as long as they believe that you have their best interest at heart.”
Here is an article that appeared on BGI on the subject:
InsideNDSports - Friday Five: Marcus Freeman and being a ‘players’ coach’
Notre Dame’s new head coach has some thoughts on a popular and sometimes overused term.
More recently there was an interesting article that appeared in SI analyzing Freeman's leadership qualities, looking at them through the lens of Bill Polian's criteria for hiring a successful head coach. Here is that article:
Looking At Marcus Freeman Through Bill Polian's Criteria For Hiring A Successful Coach
A look at how Marcus Freeman has fared thus far through the lens of Hall of Famer Bill Polian's criteria for a successful coachh
I found Polian's question asking whether the coach is a teacher or a lecturer to be quite illuminating. At his core, Marcus Freeman is a teacher. Brian Kelly, on the other hand, for all his successes on the field--and there have been many--was, and always will be, a lecturer. Give me the teacher every time.
Ultimately Marcus Freeman is going to coach in a style that meshes with who he is. He cannot be something he is not.
You're right. It's all speculation. Regardless of how Freeman is being perceived in general and regardless of how my perception may differ from the that of the majority, we won't know A DAMN THING until WE KNOW.
The articles you attached highlighted the GOOD THINGS ABOUT HIM THAT ARE KNOWN, even as they made clear that his FIELD COMMANDER ATTRIBUTES are UNKNOWABLE until we've seen them. And, again, that's the CRUX of it.
My main concern remains HIS INEXPERIENCE, which I thought was CLEARLY ON DISPLAY a number of times during the Fiesta Bowl. Not only do I fear his making a critical "wrong call," but also his having to DRAW TOO HEAVILY on others, particularly Reese. I mean, whose idea was it to put up the ball over 60 times? To not put in Buchner to change things up?
To me, that game REEKED of potential FORESHADOWING. I felt the Cowboys were beatable and, while I obviously can't prove it, there's NO WAY -- short of KEY INJURIES and/or a TURNOVER FIESTA -- I see Brian Kelly losing that game.
So, the question IMMEDIATELY COMES TO MIND -- HOW MANY MORE GAMES MIGHT FREEMAN'S INEXPERIENCE COST ND? My guess is, if things go poorly, possibly at least TWO MORE -- and to teams NOT NAMED OSU, CLEMSON OR USC.
There's a LEARNING CURVE to this which UNLESS ND'S PERSONNEL PERFORMS BRILLIANTLY EVERY TIME OUT, will, over the course of the entire season, BECOME MANIFEST to at least SOME COSTLY DEGREE.
How MANIFEST and HOW COSTLY are what concern me.
Did not know that. Wiki says QB/WR? Either way he did play football surprisingly!
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