WR's

[sharkz77]

I hope so, he looked solid in the limited time i saw him. I like the potential of liam and banks. At times you see them make great plays so it's improving and cleaning up mistakes. Hainsey, kraemer, Mustipher I didn't really see that much out of them. Hainsey just gets thrown around too much. ON one play early vs clemson you see him getting thrown to the ground. That shouldn't happen to a tackle.

I hope so, he looked solid in the limited time i saw him. I like the potential of liam and banks. At times you see them make great plays so it's improving and cleaning up mistakes. Hainsey, kraemer, Mustipher I didn't really see that much out of them. Hainsey just gets thrown around too much. ON one play early vs clemson you see him getting thrown to the ground. That shouldn't happen to a tackle.

Yet according to PFF Hainsey graded out at top of offense in this game. There is room for improvement everywhere obviously but all of this “ the guy on the bench is better” comments just show ignorance over and over.

 

[napy2121]

What game did ND play the best in.

On D - SYracuse no doubt but that was just a brilliantly executed game plan, 2nd best was UM first game of year
On O - Wake? (4th game of the year) Florida state with wimbush, or an early game vs stanford or tech?

When did ND play the worst on O and D (clemson is the answer for both and last game of the year but we'll look at the next worst)
2nd worst on O - Pitt, USC, NW......... 3 of the last 5 games
2nd worst on D - USC, last game of the year


Statistically on Defense ND played their second best game vs UM (cuse was the first against backup qb)
Statistically on Offense we got worse every month by a large margin, especially books play. The only game that was an outlier was Florida State with Wimbush. That game was NDs most efficient offensively.

I think Nd showed good mental toughness late in the year, but their play DID NOT IMPROVE. The bowl game shows that to a T

Players who got better in the year:

1. Dex Williams. Got better at blocking and catching as the year ran along, as well as playing through dings.

2. Aaron banks- non starter whose play ascended enough to supplant a starter mid season and was an improvement overall in line play.

3. Chase Claypool- played better than last year and improved through the season. Wish book looked his way more v Clemson but he improved in season AND over last year.

4. Okwara improved as the year wore on and essentially supplanted Hayes with more snaps at that spot.

5. On the back end both Elliot and pride improved overall, pretty significantly.

Yes we played our best game v Syracuse, Stanford and um. One started the season, one mid season, one late season. Overall I’d stand on my argument that this team improved most in season this year than any in a long time.

 

[VTND]

You forgot about Stepherson? He was big time and would’ve helped Saturday.

He would have been a star had he not been a clown.

 

[VTND]

Gilman thought Ross was going to break the route off at the sticks for the first down and allowed himself to take a misstep, but there is no way Alohi Gilman runs in coverage with Justyn Ross. In fact, there was a post route earlier in the game, when Lawrence attacked Gilman. Ross has 2 steps on him in that route 2 and Lawrence tossed a frozen rope. Gilman can run with a lot of players in college football, he can't run with that 6'4 antelope.... He'll face a similar challenge next year when Georgia puts Mecole Hardman in the slot on Gilman. He's even faster than Ross is.

And Gilman will be better in his second season starting. I’m not worried about him. He had a bad game, that doesn’t take away from his body of work over the season.

 

[Bumpdaddy]

And Gilman will be better in his second season starting. I’m not worried about him. He had a bad game, that doesn’t take away from his body of work over the season.

I agree with the first part but I disagree with the second. Gilman didn't have a bad game. He had 1 bad play and maybe 1 or 2 others that were borderline. He also set a Cotton Bowl record with 18 tackles and they weren't all the kind where he was having to make tackles 10 and 20 yards down the field. He was making plays at the line of line of scrimmage. Overall, he had a good game.

 

[VTND]

Agree but Tranquil wasn't the problem, Bilal was. Bilal again with 5 weeks of prep had no clue what he was doing. 2nd half they kept running the qb read option right to his side, and every time bilal was clueless. Bilal is just a bad bad bad football player with amazing physical traits. If you are clueless mentally, your physical traits don't matter.

Falls back on coaching when players are not ready to play. Kelly has two major flaws 1. Terrible in big games 2. Never makes adjustments in these games. The biggest disparity for me in the Clemson game was coaching.

 

[VTND]

I agree with the first part but I disagree with the second. Gilman didn't have a bad game. He had 1 bad play and maybe 1 or 2 others that were borderline. He also set a Cotton Bowl record with 18 tackles and they weren't all the kind where he was having to make tackles 10 and 20 yards down the field. He was making plays at the line of line of scrimmage. Overall, he had a good game.

Good point. He will be the leader of the defense next year.

 

[Patrirish]

WR were fine enough for speed teams like Fl St, Mich and UOJ. Game plan was bad.

AGREE

 

[DieHard_Irish]

The armstrong play was the difference in the game. I firmly believe if Book was a solid QB ND goes up 10-3 in the 2nd quarter and the game is completely different. Instead we go for it on fourth down the next play, bad pass, and clemson scores a quick TD to start taking the game over.

The play to armstrong was a roll out right, broken play by the Clemson D. All he needed to do was throw it 30 yards while running right. Not a huge ask. The other 3 qbs in the playoffs make that play over and over.

I talked about that play a ton during the game, and how 1 play can make a difference. Our safety makes mistake, ND gets burned, Clemson safety makes mistake, we throw it away out of bounds because that's not where the play was intended to go.

Average at best QB play will hold this team back. Book is far from championship caliber.

Throw it 30 yards running right, across his body, not to much to ask? Are you kidding me? Mist QBs are taught not to throw that pass ... hey, I don't for a second think Ian Book is a great QB, my point is/was, he didn't play that bad, and we didn't lose because of him. We were out coached and out played by better coaches and better players. Period, plain and simple

 

[Shulkswagen]

our QB did not make many big plays with his arm or his legs, theirs did, amd that is why they had 30 and we had 3 ... it’s a team game so let’s not pin it on one player but we generated very little offensive momentum all game ... credit Clemson defense of course but there were plays to be made in the first half and we didn’t make them.

 

[Get Nasty]

Throw it 30 yards running right, across his body, not to much to ask? Are you kidding me? Mist QBs are taught not to throw that pass ... hey, I don't for a second think Ian Book is a great QB, my point is/was, he didn't play that bad, and we didn't lose because of him. We were out coached and out played by better coaches and better players. Period, plain and simple

Mahomes threw it 55 yards on the same type play yesterday. Book isn’t mahomes, that’s why I’m asking for 30 not 55. It’s book’s inability to make big plays down the field even when the team has busted coverage. Ask Chris Finke vs vtech and other times this season. Book was rolling right, but when you see a busted coverage for a TD, you take it. That pass is either a Td or incompletion. You think being is only about throwing to the designed player? Have you watched championship QBs lately, they create extra time and ad lib for huge plays especially when coverage is busted. Books problem in that play is if he Plants to make the throw he gets hit after throwing it, we all know book won’t take a hit and make a throw.

 

[Pennick4]

They got all the calls right.

1. Clemson clearly caused Book to fumble and there was an immediate recovery.
2. An inch of the ball was clearly out of bounds when Kmet forced the fumble on the kickoff.
3. Aliz'e Mack didn't appear to complete a movement common to the game on the incomplete call.

Those things can obviously influence momentum if they are called differently, but they were called correctly, and that's what matters most.

2 and 3 were called incorrectly. 2 was a game changer. Far from conclusive.

 

[Pennick4]

I've said it countless times now and i'll say it again. Book does not have the confidence to throw to the wide side of the field. I hyped chase up big time pre season and he didn't have the season i expected, but he also wasn't given the chance. I've gone back and focused on him and he is open a ton of the time, but book always looks short side first and typically never progresses to the wide side. Only time he did was vs NW and look what Chase did. Boykin is slow, terrible body control, and might be the worst high point catcher i've ever seen. Actually he doesn't even attempt to high point the ball. Boykin and Chase are going to play a lot next year but we need talent to keep running WRs in and out, keeping them fresh. Even though CLemson has 2 first round WRs they bring other people in to keep them fresh.

With that said, doesn't matter how good our WRs are if we don't have a qb that can throw downfield or will stay in the pocket. The formula is out on book, it's the easiest game plan against him right now.

Chase can't hold Boykins jock. They threw to him early. How did that work out? Great special teams player and pretty good blocker. Both will be back.

 

[bizzybecknd]

Gilman can't run with elite wide receivers, nor can Elliot. They are better players right now, but you can't win a playoff game with them. All the Clemson OC's had to do was run an exchange route, or line Justyn Ross (a true freshman) up in the slot to match him up on Alohi Gilman, and he had no chance. He's a great run filler, but he can't run with quality wide receivers.

This obsession with getting freshman, the newest kids on the block, on the field due to their high school hype and disregarding is admirable but not realistic for ND or any school.

He doesn't stink. He just can't run with the elite receivers in college football. He got roasted by Ross on two separate occasions. He's a great enforcer in the box, but he's a liability in deep coverage. Clark Lea will need to fix that in his scheme going forward, or Georgia will isolate Holloman or Hardman on Gilman too... He can't be left in cover 1 situations without safety help on his man when they invert wide receivers to get their fast guy in the slot, or run an exchange at that snap. It's going to happen at times. Every defensive back is going to get beat. Deion Sanders and Champ Bailey got beat. Nobody should be jumping off a cliff because Gilman couldn't run with Justyn Ross, but did you see a single scenario where their much maligned secondary couldn't run with our guys?

How many safety's can? I doubt they match him up 1-on-1 with Ross if Love isn't hurt. NDs staff knew that was a mis match but didn't want to take one of their best play makers off the field. Hell the best safety in the league, Harrison Smith, isn't running with him.

Huh? Gillman was great the other night. He's one of our best players.

I said behind as in come off the bench. IIO is pressing the panick button because Gilman didn't run with a stud WR in the slot and wants true freshman Kyle Hamilton and Houston to take over at safety. Dumbfounding.

 

[bizzybecknd]

2 and 3 were called incorrectly. 2 was a game changer. Far from conclusive.

I thought 1 and 3 were called correctly. I did not think 2 was conclusive.

 

[Get Nasty]

Chase can't hold Boykins jock. They threw to him early. How did that work out? Great special teams player and pretty good blocker. Both will be back.

He dropped an easy one and made a great catch on another. Chase is a game changer without a qb that can get the ball to the wide side. Boykin is a big body with solid hands and long strides but he’s slow and has awful body control.

 

[DieHard_Irish]

Mahomes threw it 55 yards on the same type play yesterday. Book isn’t mahomes, that’s why I’m asking for 30 not 55. It’s book’s inability to make big plays down the field even when the team has busted coverage. Ask Chris Finke vs vtech and other times this season. Book was rolling right, but when you see a busted coverage for a TD, you take it. That pass is either a Td or incompletion. You think being is only about throwing to the designed player? Have you watched championship QBs lately, they create extra time and ad lib for huge plays especially when coverage is busted. Books problem in that play is if he Plants to make the throw he gets hit after throwing it, we all know book won’t take a hit and make a throw.

I said he is not as good as the other 3 in the CFP, but he did an awesome job for ND this year and he is FAR, FAR from the reason we lost to Clemson.

 

[SIhoosier26]

This obsession with getting freshman, the newest kids on the block, on the field due to their high school hype and disregarding is admirable but not realistic for ND or any school.

How many safety's can? I doubt they match him up 1-on-1 with Ross if Love isn't hurt. NDs staff knew that was a mis match but didn't want to take one of their best play makers off the field. Hell the best safety in the league, Harrison Smith, isn't running with him.

I said behind as in come off the bench. IIO is pressing the panick button because Gilman didn't run with a stud WR in the slot and wants true freshman Kyle Hamilton and Houston to take over at safety. Dumbfounding.

Gillman will start next year and rightfully so. Just because the coaches sh*t the bed the other night doesn't mean it's time to replace all our best players with freshman.

It would be interesting to see what Book could do with guys like Austin and Lenzy at receiver though.

 

[TBone138]

why was it correct, do you know the shape of the football isn't flat? If it had been called out i'd agree it stays out, but it was really really close.

Also, pretty sure the whistle blew dead before book's fumble was recovered by clemson.

Just had this same conversation today at work. Said if a football was flat I would totally agree with overturning the call. Also when have you ever seen a defender pick up a football like a loaf of bread after the whistle and have the officials rule it a fumble recovery...insane..

 

[Get Nasty]

I said he is not as good as the other 3 in the CFP, but he did an awesome job for ND this year and he is FAR, FAR from the reason we lost to Clemson.

Nd wasn’t prepared and ready that’s big picture why Nd lost the way they did. Singular focus book on O and Vaughan on D were two biggest player reasons we lost. It’s 11 on 11 so a lot goes into every play. But book had his worst game by a ton and we needed him to raise his game. Vaughan is just average and went up against elite, he got exposed by Pitt, that says enough.

 

[Shulkswagen]

Nd wasn’t prepared and ready that’s big picture why Nd lost the way they did. Singular focus book on O and Vaughan on D were two biggest player reasons we lost. It’s 11 on 11 so a lot goes into every play. But book had his worst game by a ton and we needed him to raise his game. Vaughan is just average and went up against elite, he got exposed by Pitt, that says enough.

Pickett was 19/26 for 126 yards, no TDS ... how exactly did Vaughn get exposed in that game?

 

[Shulkswagen]

I said he is not as good as the other 3 in the CFP, but he did an awesome job for ND this year and he is FAR, FAR from the reason we lost to Clemson.

Book is the QB for an offense that scored 3 points, he threw a pick and he fumbled. He was late on a lot of throws. He could not get around the corner on every designed run. It’s a team game but to say he’s far from the reason we lost, umm no. This is playoff football, our QB play was sub-standard. Clemson’s was record setting.

 

[Pennick4]

He dropped an easy one and made a great catch on another. Chase is a game changer without a qb that can get the ball to the wide side. Boykin is a big body with solid hands and long strides but he’s slow and has awful body control.

Not sure what the fascination is with Claypool. Boykins is so much more productive as a receiver.

 

[SIhoosier26]

Pickett was 19/26 for 126 yards, no TDS ... how exactly did Vaughn get exposed in that game?

Vaughn had a tough game, it happens in big boy CFB. That being said, he will be better for it and will have a key role in the secondary going forward. Hell one of the tds was caught with great coverage, the 5* receiver just made a heck of a play. I have no doubt Vaughn played his heart out on Saturday.

People are just having a hard time coming to terms with Notre Dame's current ceiling. Obviously we had a great year, that being said with the higher ups holding back our current athletic department this is the best result possible. Win 9 games for a few years while the players develop, then when they're JRs/SRs and a few things break right we will be in the thick of the national championship race. When we play one of the top 2 or 3 teams in the country we will get exposed, simple as that.

It's more than just a talent, and coaching problem. The higher ups just don't care about competing to be the top program in college football anymore, simple as that. I will still watch every game next year as I'm a die hard Fighting Irish fan, that being said we all know what the result will be. We simply aren't good enough to compete with Clemson/Bama/Georgia right now and it ain't changing anytime soon.

 

[Shulkswagen]

Vaughn had a tough game, it happens in big boy CFB. That being said, he will be better for it and will have a key role in the secondary going forward. Hell one of the tds was caught with great coverage, the 5* receiver just made a heck of a play. I have no doubt Vaughn played his heart out on Saturday.

People are just having a hard time coming to terms with Notre Dame's current ceiling. Obviously we had a great year, that being said with the higher ups holding back our current athletic department this is the best result possible. Win 9 games for a few years while the players develop, then when they're JRs/SRs and a few things break right we will be in the thick of the national championship race. When we play one of the top 2 or 3 teams in the country we will get exposed, simple as that.

It's more than just a talent, and coaching problem. The higher ups just don't care about competing to be the top program in college football anymore, simple as that. I will still watch every game next year as I'm a die hard Fighting Irish fan, that being said we all know what the result will be. We simply aren't good enough to compete with Clemson/Bama/Georgia right now and it ain't changing anytime soon.

I’ve heard this before that the “higher ups” don’t care about winning enough ... curious, who do you mean? And what things are they not willing to do? Do you have any real insider info or just general impressions? Asking seriously because without specifics it’s just a convenient excuse.

 

[SIhoosier26]

I’ve heard this before that the “higher ups” don’t care about winning enough ... curious, who do you mean? And what things are they not willing to do? Do you have any real insider info or just general impressions? Asking seriously because without specifics it’s just a convenient excuse.

The academic differences speak for themselves, they simply would rather run a holier than thou program.

There was an article on this board earlier today from the New York Times from Reverend John Jenkins and a few others talking about how if the NCAA decided it was legal to pay players, that Notre Dame would leave the NCAA. That's just one example of how our higher ups think, they don't even keep in mind that the college football program is part of what make Notre Dame what it is. Not to mention all of the money they make off of it.

The top programs don't give a damn, and it's the main thing holding this program back from what it once was. I've come to the conclusion to just embrace what we have because it will never be the same.

 

[Shulkswagen]

The academic differences speak for themselves, they simply would rather run a holier than thou program.

There was an article on this board earlier today from the New York Times from Reverend John Jenkins and a few others talking about how if the NCAA decided it was legal to pay players, that Notre Dame would leave the NCAA. That's just one example of how our higher ups think, they don't even keep in mind that the college football program is part of what make Notre Dame what it is. Not to mention all of the money they make off of it.

The top programs don't give a damn, and it's the main thing holding this program back from what it once was. I've come to the conclusion to just embrace what we have because it will never be the same.

Ok - you don’t have any real info just general ideas like higher academic standards, core curriculum, stricter with discipline etc which are all real in a sense but not really quantifiable and perhaps not so different from the Stanford’s, Michigan’s USCs etc
ND has made a lot of changes in recent years such as EEs, training table, significant facilities upgrades, better salaries for assistants etc which leads me to believe they do indeed want to compete. As an alum in my 50s I’m very happy, delighted in fact with not just athletics but with the university’s continuing development and impact. I think Kelly is very good but not an elite coach and that might be the final difference maker if the right coach was in place or if Kelly evolves some more.

 

[SIhoosier26]

Ok - you don’t have any real info just general ideas like higher academic standards, core curriculum, stricter with discipline etc which are all real in a sense but not really quantifiable and perhaps not so different from the Stanford’s, Michigan’s USCs etc
ND has made a lot of changes in recent years such as EEs, training table, significant facilities upgrades, better salaries for assistants etc which leads me to believe they do indeed want to compete. As an alum in my 50s I’m very happy, delighted in fact with not just athletics but with the university’s continuing development and impact. I think Kelly is very good but not an elite coach and that might be the final difference maker if the right coach was in place or if Kelly evolves some more.

Agree, pretty good post. Hopefully Kelly becomes that next level guy in big games, so far I'm not seeing it.

 

[Patrirish]

our QB did not make many big plays with his arm or his legs, theirs did, amd that is why they had 30 and we had 3 ... it’s a team game so let’s not pin it on one player but we generated very little offensive momentum all game ... credit Clemson defense of course but there were plays to be made in the first half and we didn’t make them.

Maybe their QB had more time !

 

[Shulkswagen]

.

Maybe their QB had more time !

no doubt that was a big factor ... especially as the game went on.

 

[NIN Irish]

Agree, pretty good post. Hopefully Kelly becomes that next level guy in big games, so far I'm not seeing it.

That's an understatement.

 

[Patrirish]

Vaughn had a tough game, it happens in big boy CFB. That being said, he will be better for it and will have a key role in the secondary going forward. Hell one of the tds was caught with great coverage, the 5* receiver just made a heck of a play. I have no doubt Vaughn played his heart out on Saturday.

People are just having a hard time coming to terms with Notre Dame's current ceiling. Obviously we had a great year, that being said with the higher ups holding back our current athletic department this is the best result possible. Win 9 games for a few years while the players develop, then when they're JRs/SRs and a few things break right we will be in the thick of the national championship race. When we play one of the top 2 or 3 teams in the country we will get exposed, simple as that.

It's more than just a talent, and coaching problem. The higher ups just don't care about competing to be the top program in college football anymore, simple as that. I will still watch every game next year as I'm a die hard Fighting Irish fan, that being said we all know what the result will be. We simply aren't good enough to compete with Clemson/Bama/Georgia right now and it ain't changing anytime soon.

How much of the University’s soul are you willing to sell in order to compete for the National Championship

 

[Shulkswagen]

How much of the University’s soul are you willing to sell in order to compete for the National Championship

This is too easy to use as an excuse ... you have to be more specific about real changes that would make a real difference that ND is not making.
Also don’t forget that Kelly is the only coach to vacate wins.

 

[VTND]

Vaughn had a tough game, it happens in big boy CFB. That being said, he will be better for it and will have a key role in the secondary going forward. Hell one of the tds was caught with great coverage, the 5* receiver just made a heck of a play. I have no doubt Vaughn played his heart out on Saturday.

People are just having a hard time coming to terms with Notre Dame's current ceiling. Obviously we had a great year, that being said with the higher ups holding back our current athletic department this is the best result possible. Win 9 games for a few years while the players develop, then when they're JRs/SRs and a few things break right we will be in the thick of the national championship race. When we play one of the top 2 or 3 teams in the country we will get exposed, simple as that.

It's more than just a talent, and coaching problem. The higher ups just don't care about competing to be the top program in college football anymore, simple as that. I will still watch every game next year as I'm a die hard Fighting Irish fan, that being said we all know what the result will be. We simply aren't good enough to compete with Clemson/Bama/Georgia right now and it ain't changing anytime soon.

After rewatching the game. Vaughn Wasn’t so awful. I felt like in the first TD he actually had good coverage but lost his footing and the second was a lucky play that swung in Clemson’s favor.

 

[Patrirish]

This is too easy to use as an excuse ... you have to be more specific about real changes that would make a real difference that ND is not making.
Also don’t forget that Kelly is the only coach to vacate wins.

The vacating of wins is irrelevant.

The question stands.

What standards are you willing to lower in an attempt to win a N.C. ?

 

[Shulkswagen]

The vacating of wins is irrelevant.

The question stands.

What standards are you willing to lower in an attempt to win a N.C. ?

I’m not proposing this generalization at all my friend ... I was under the impression from your post that you thought there was something specific holding us back in the way of a university policy. I like the change to admit EEs. I would not change the dorm/living arrangements it’s too central to ND culture. I also would not creat special academic tracks ... the current arrangement already Hs is leading the nation in graduating players which I would continue to value. I think ND has been very understanding with 2nd chances in “violation of team rules” situations ... I would not be overlooking repeat offenses ... but we don’t really know the specifics ... what gets you suspended and what gets you running the stadium stairs.

 

[SIhoosier26]

How much of the University’s soul are you willing to sell in order to compete for the National Championship

It's freaking Notre Dame! 20 years ago you could make an argument that they're the best college football program of all time. Now we get dominated by any elite team within reach of the national title. I'm glad you're okay with it, as far as I know, me and most fans are not.

I'm glad we can hold academic and holier than thou standards over the top teams in college football, but I'm sure their fans don't care while their teams are kicking our ass on the field. I know I don't.

 

[SIhoosier26]

The vacating of wins is irrelevant.

The question stands.

What standards are you willing to lower in an attempt to win a N.C. ?

Good question, and it depends on what the higher ups value more. The unfortunate thing is, we all already know the answer.

 

[Patrirish]

It's freaking Notre Dame! 20 years ago you could make an argument that they're the best college football program of all time. Now we get dominated by any elite team within reach of the national title. I'm glad you're okay with it, as far as I know, me and most fans are not.

I'm glad we can hold academic and holier than thou standards over the top teams in college football, but I'm sure their fans don't care while their teams are kicking our ass on the field. I know I don't.

Notre Dame just went 12-0 with high standards

Syracuse and Texas A & M lost to Clemson by a few points and you want Notre Dame to ruin a reputation that’s taken a century to develop ?

Did you attend Notre Dame ?

 

[DieHard_Irish]

It's freaking Notre Dame! 20 years ago you could make an argument that they're the best college football program of all time. Now we get dominated by any elite team within reach of the national title. I'm glad you're okay with it, as far as I know, me and most fans are not.

I'm glad we can hold academic and holier than thou standards over the top teams in college football, but I'm sure their fans don't care while their teams are kicking our ass on the field. I know I don't.

What do you propose they(the higher ups) do? And what steps they going now to stifle the ptogrsm?