WR's

[IrishInOntario]

ND lost 30-3, the better team won but what else should the guy discuss? How it could have been 50-3? Bottom line is early calls in the 1st quarter were overturned and possibly incorrectly which would have altered the trajectory of the game ... didn’t happen, doesn’t mean Clemson would not still have won, and great teams make their own breaks.
As for being mocked by other teams fans, umm ok. Mock all you want I don’t think we are too concerned about it, most of us have enough perspective in life to not define ourselves by an opposing fans view of our football program or if our grasping for answers after a disappointing loss.

They got all the calls right.

1. Clemson clearly caused Book to fumble and there was an immediate recovery.
2. An inch of the ball was clearly out of bounds when Kmet forced the fumble on the kickoff.
3. Aliz'e Mack didn't appear to complete a movement common to the game on the incomplete call.

Those things can obviously influence momentum if they are called differently, but they were called correctly, and that's what matters most.

 

[napy2121]

They got all the calls right.

1. Clemson clearly caused Book to fumble and there was an immediate recovery.
2. An inch of the ball was clearly out of bounds when Kmet forced the fumble on the kickoff.
3. Aliz'e Mack didn't appear to complete a movement common to the game on the incomplete call.

Those things can obviously influence momentum if they are called differently, but they were called correctly, and that's what matters most.

I’m obviously biased but that grainy ass closeup of the ball on the sideline couldn’t clarify anything for me- other than the cone/tip of the ball wasn’t pointed downward and wasn’t touching the ground. Sure as hell wasnt “conclusive” to overturn. Nor was it a better vantage point than the ref standing four feet from the play on the field for that matter.

Clarify this for me on Mack- what is MORE common to the game that turning your shoulders 45 degrees toward the first down marker? He clearly tucked the ball, then clearly got two feet to the ground, then clearly attempted to turn his shoulders toward the marker. What isn’t common football moves about ANY of those things?

 

[twalsh]

Your stubbornness is why other fan bases mock ND fans.

Every fan base is mocked by other fans.

 

[die4irish]

Book can't throw the ball downfield. You're completely useless against an athletic defense if they can smother you within 15 yards of the LOS... He's a legitimately bad downfield passer of the football. Did you see the ropes that Lawrence was throwing, 25 yards down field, in stride?.. He's 2 years younger than Book.

IO hits the nail on the head

 

[Shulkswagen]

They got all the calls right.

1. Clemson clearly caused Book to fumble and there was an immediate recovery.
2. An inch of the ball was clearly out of bounds when Kmet forced the fumble on the kickoff.
3. Aliz'e Mack didn't appear to complete a movement common to the game on the incomplete call.

Those things can obviously influence momentum if they are called differently, but they were called correctly, and that's what matters most.

I was at the game so replays were limited and I certainly ain’t rewatching the game ... read an article that there was absolutely a whistle after the Book fumble and no immediate recovery. In any event I’m not hanging on calls ... the game was 3-3 and we had a 3rd and short inside Clemson 40 and didn’t convert on 2 downs. After than Clemson took over with Love out of the game and made big plays. Their QB was head and shoulders better. And yes I watched Boykin beat press coverage multiple times and Book not deliver the ball ... he did not have a good day, no doubt also because of Clemson pressure.

 

[lyonhawk]

Regarding the three overturned calls, I was in the stadium so only got the replay on the 60 yard big screen, but Book's fumble very obviously didn't have a clear recovery. The only one who could have immediately stood up to celebrate his tackle without the football. On the kickoff, the replay they showed in the stadium looked like the point of the ball was off the ground, don't think that should've been overturned because it was too close. Not sure Claypool could've legally recovered though since he had just come in from out of bounds. Not sure how the Mack play was overturned, that was an obvious catch. He caught it, tucked it, and turned to make a move upfield.

There was also a false start on no one at point when the game was still close that may have cost us a drive.

 

[d1042]

the other part of the KO was that the out of bounds player was said to have touched the ball.
The commentator said that if he did so, the ball is deemed OOBs?

None of these single. plays would have altered the outcome.
CU messed up 2 RZ trips. And CU turned it off early.

 

[lyonhawk]

the other part of the KO was that the out of bounds player was said to have touched the ball.
The commentator said that if he did so, the ball is deemed OOBs?

I mentioned that, but the referee said the ball went out of bounds. Claypool was in bounds when he recovered it, but he had just come back from out of bounds. The discussion in the stands was whether it was illegal touching and the freeze frame they kept using of the ball definitely showed a sliver of green showing under the nose.

 

[stu4don]

Gilman is a leader and will coach someday. He hits harder than anyone on the d. He will clean his coverages up. We will need him to call defenses and help the young LBs. But I do expect changes in the back. Good thing is we won't play too many Lawrences next year.

Boykin and Claypool have trouble getting open. Why? Coaching? Scheme? I disagree that finding a Fuller is hard. Hell, Stepherson was looking like Fuller 2.0.

Ian. Did a great job. Got us to 12-0 but again in this game he missed another down-field throw to Boykin for the score. He needs to figure that out or make room for Phil. Phil's motion is still a little loopy... Ian will get us the wins vs. lesser teams. But can he improve to win in the big games.

O-line was the weakest in 6 years. Too many losses to make up. Just too green. Even Harry would have had a hard time. But I like the talent and the depth going forward. Banks played well on saturday. If Hainsey can transition to center, they will be in place for 2-3 years, and there is NFL talent there. (And despite what some have said, Quinn recruited a stellar class this year.) We will be better.

It is clear that we'll have to go undefeated again to go to the final four. If we lose to Georgia, we're out. No-one will allow us in with that L. So, the stakes are clear.

 

[TOMMY_23]

Our WR's have been bad all year. Don't get me wrong it was not all their fault but Claypool and Boykin really are not good enough. Both are big, slow WR's and probably neither will be drafted. From my view, Will Fuller was the last big time guy we had. He had big time speed and could stretch defenses. Kelly desperately needs to find a guy that has field stretching speed. Hopefully Lenzy or one of the other young guys can step up and be that guy moving forward.

Spring football should be interesting this year with many of our core players both on the Offense and Defense leaving. Who does everyone predict will fill these roles?

The Clemson loss sucks but it is what it is. No use dwelling on it now.

You forgot about Stepherson? He was big time and would’ve helped Saturday.

 

[stu4don]

Kelly needs to change his ways in these big games. Why not, when things were going south, give Wimbush a shot... Wimbush won the game vs. a tough Michigan D. Why not have a few plays where Wimbush comes in, Ian flanks out and W either runs or throws it. Why not bring in one of our young speedsters with five weeks to prepare and let Wimbush launch a few downfield. Our o-line was getting crushed, we needed a backup plan.

No imagination. It is no longer enough to get there, Brian. ND fans are sick of being humiliated on the National Stage. And no, this wasn't all that different from 2012.

And, we have to figure a way to pull in some 5* playmakers. You guys were right about that.

 

[d1042]

If ND fans need the KO play as solace then, not much more to debate.

 

[chitown-irish]

1. No one says gilman stinks, just that's he's not an elite cover safety and can get exposed 1-1 vs good WRs.
2. Boykin does not have excellent body control, just the opposite, he's like a giraffe playing the position, he has no control over his body and falls over all the time instead of actually going after and high pointing the ball
3. When did the coaches throw jump balls in the red zone to claypool who is 6'4 or 5 and a monster vertical? They did not use their size correctly like stanford does. Also, our redzone offense was terrible this year at times
4. No one is saying the players suck. I'm critical of boykin and book big time but they don't suck, they are just above average. Bilal different story, he's bad.

Your a fool. Boykin is by far the best wr on the team. And he's the best wr on the team because of his body control and being able to position his body to make catches over dbs. ND only had 17 1st downs againts Clemson he was responsible for 6. Chase claypool is a great special teams player. But an average wr who is inconsistent. Boykin and finke are fine they just need a deep threat to go along with them. I like to see Chase put on 15 pounds and move to linebacker.

 

[d1042]

“like to see Chase put on 15 pounds and move to linebacker.”

too late, but yep, think Brad Van Pelt.

 

[lyonhawk]

If Claypool is putting on 15 pounds and changing positions, I'd rather see him move to TE. We've recruited LB pretty well the last few cycles, so we don't really need any more bodies there.

 

[mwjourney]

Kelly needs to change his ways in these big games. Why not, when things were going south, give Wimbush a shot... Wimbush won the game vs. a tough Michigan D. Why not have a few plays where Wimbush comes in, Ian flanks out and W either runs or throws it. Why not bring in one of our young speedsters with five weeks to prepare and let Wimbush launch a few downfield. Our o-line was getting crushed, we needed a backup plan.

No imagination. It is no longer enough to get there, Brian. ND fans are sick of being humiliated on the National Stage. And no, this wasn't all that different from 2012.

And, we have to figure a way to pull in some 5* playmakers. You guys were right about that.

Exactly like what Alabama did with Hurts........throw in some specially designed plays and give their defense some different looks.

I'll disagree slightly with the 2012 analogy. ND is in a much better position going into next year with what we have coming back then in 2012

 

[lyonhawk]

Exactly like what Alabama did with Hurts........throw in some specially designed plays and give their defense some different looks.

I'll disagree slightly with the 2012 analogy. ND is in a much better position going into next year with what we have coming back then in 2012

Agreed. We lost A LOT off the 2012 team. That team felt like one of those NCAA basketball teams who are all seniors and put together a tournament run out of nowhere. This team has a ton of returning starters. LB and Julian Love are the only real question marks for me.

 

[chitown-irish]

If Claypool is putting on 15 pounds and changing positions, I'd rather see him move to TE. We've recruited LB pretty well the last few cycles, so we don't really need any more bodies there.

His biggest asset is his pure athletic ability. He has inconsistent hands and concentration problems. I think at likebacker he could make the most of his athletic ability. At 6'4 240 running sidline to sideline would be scary.

 

[lyonhawk]

His biggest asset is his pure athletic ability. He has inconsistent hands and concentration problems. I think at likebacker he could make the most of his athletic ability. At 6'4 240 running sidline to sideline would be scary.

True, but LB isn't a position of need and he's never played it. I just don't think he's a can't miss better player than the guys we've signed at that position and are waiting to take over with Coney and Tranquill gone.

 

[chitown-irish]

True, but LB isn't a position of need and he's never played it. I just don't think he's a can't miss better player than the guys we've signed at that position and are waiting to take over with Coney and Tranquill gone.

I agree with you to some degree. But we don't have an athlete like him and linebacker. Also don't think he will play wr on the NFL so just another way up him uping his stock.

 

[Get Nasty]

He doesn't stink. He just can't run with the elite receivers in college football. He got roasted by Ross on two separate occasions. He's a great enforcer in the box, but he's a liability in deep coverage. Clark Lea will need to fix that in his scheme going forward, or Georgia will isolate Holloman or Hardman on Gilman too... He can't be left in cover 1 situations without safety help on his man when they invert wide receivers to get their fast guy in the slot, or run an exchange at that snap. It's going to happen at times. Every defensive back is going to get beat. Deion Sanders and Champ Bailey got beat. Nobody should be jumping off a cliff because Gilman couldn't run with Justyn Ross, but did you see a single scenario where their much maligned secondary couldn't run with our guys?

I actually did a number of times, but book was zoned in on boykin and wouldn't look off him.

 

[Get Nasty]

They got all the calls right.

1. Clemson clearly caused Book to fumble and there was an immediate recovery.
2. An inch of the ball was clearly out of bounds when Kmet forced the fumble on the kickoff.
3. Aliz'e Mack didn't appear to complete a movement common to the game on the incomplete call.

Those things can obviously influence momentum if they are called differently, but they were called correctly, and that's what matters most.

1. I swear there was a whistle blown dead, exactly why everyone stood around even the clemson defender. He didn't jump on the ball, he just grabbed it after a second or so.
2. An inch of the ball was clearly over the out of bounds, not clearly touching, a football isn't flat
3. Alize's i can see being reversed but it was painful in the reversing after they reversed all the other questionable close calls

 

[Get Nasty]

Your a fool. Boykin is by far the best wr on the team. And he's the best wr on the team because of his body control and being able to position his body to make catches over dbs. ND only had 17 1st downs againts Clemson he was responsible for 6. Chase claypool is a great special teams player. But an average wr who is inconsistent. Boykin and finke are fine they just need a deep threat to go along with them. I like to see Chase put on 15 pounds and move to linebacker.

claypool is our best WR by far, and it will be reflected in the draft in about 16 months. You have a qb that can't get the ball to him. Go back and watch any game, and focus on claypool, and you'll see how much he's open. Book just can't make that throw to the wide side down the field.

 

[chitown-irish]

Most athletically gifted and best are two different things. The only thing that Chase does better then boykin is run after catch. If he is drafted higher it will because he is a great special teams player not wr.

 

[IrishInOntario]

I actually did a number of times, but book was zoned in on boykin and wouldn't look off him.

Our guys weren't running past theirs. There is a difference between having a step on a guy, or getting open via the concept vs the coverage, and flat torching a guy on a Go route or a post route, 1 on 1, because he can't run with you. I agree with you that Book missed a number of open receivers, probably because he was concerned about the pass rush in his face, even when it wasn't there, but ND doesn't possess anybody that runs like Ross, especially not at 6'5... He just took the top off the coverage with ease.

 

[Bumpdaddy]

2. An inch of the ball was clearly over the out of bounds, not clearly touching, a football isn't flat

I agreed with your entire post but I just want to highlight the point above. It amazes me that some ND fans can't understand that pointing out that the fumble reversal was a bad call doesn't mean we don't also realize it wouldn't have changed the outcome of the game and Clemson would have still won. Both things are true. No one is trying to make excuses for the loss. For those saying it was a good call, please provide the conclusive video evidence that shows the ball actually touching out of bounds and not some grainy picture that only shows the tip of the ball hovering over the out of bounds.

For what it's worth, Mike Pereira thought it was a bad reversal too. He knows a little something about officiating:

 

[Get Nasty]

Our guys weren't running past theirs. There is a difference between having a step on a guy, or getting open via the concept vs the coverage, and flat torching a guy on a Go route or a post route, 1 on 1, because he can't run with you. I agree with you that Book missed a number of open receivers, probably because he was concerned about the pass rush in his face, even when it wasn't there, but ND doesn't possess anybody that runs like Ross, especially not at 6'5... He just took the top off the coverage with ease.

Oh i agree here, i'm just saying there was multiple busted coverage's and open WRs, typically on the wide side. I just can't understand how you see clemson stacking the short side of the field yet you still focus that way. Crazy.

 

[Get Nasty]

I agreed with your entire post but I just want to highlight the point above. It amazes me that some ND fans can't understand that pointing out that the fumble reversal was a bad call doesn't mean we don't also realize it wouldn't have changed the outcome of the game and Clemson would have still won. Both things are true. No one is trying to make excuses for the loss. For those saying it was a good call, please provide the conclusive video evidence that shows the ball actually touching out of bounds and not some grainy picture that only shows the tip of the ball hovering over the out of bounds.

For what it's worth, Mike Pereira thought it was a bad reversal too. He knows a little something about officiating:

View embedded media

Yep, and there clearly was a whistle blown before clemson recovered the fumble on book. yes book shouldn't have fumbled, and yes clemson would have recovered, but in football when the whistle blows the play is dead. Mustipher was just standing there. Obviously he has the quickness of a sloth, so no chance he would have got the ball.

 

[SIhoosier26]

QB: Book
RB: Jones/Armstrong
WR: Austin, Claypool, Boykin, Finke
TE: Kmet
LT: Eichenburg
LG: Banks
C: Ruhland
RG: Kraemer
RT: Hainsey

DE: Okwara/Hayes
DT: MTA/Amendola
DE: Kareem/Ade
DT: Hinish

LB: Simon/Bauer/Heath/Bilal

S: Gilman/Elliott
CB: Love/Pride

I don't see a huge drop off on offense, Dexter will be missed. I think Julian comes back, Secondary should be outstanding if so. the LB crew will be the biggest question mark. . Replacing Coney/Tranquil won't be easy. A lot of inexperience here.

That looks like a 9-3 team at best.

 

[SIhoosier26]

And I think both the young safeties should play behind Gilman and Elliott.

Huh? Gillman was great the other night. He's one of our best players.

 

[Get Nasty]

That looks like a 9-3 team at best.

yeah, ruhland, kraemer, hainsey combination is not good, either small and weak or big and slow. Need to shake up the entire right side, and get Liam to improve on LT.

Armstrong really needs to grow and kyren williams needs to be an impact frosh because if Jones is getting PT at RB again, we're in trouble.

 

[d1042]

yeah, ruhland, kraemer, hainsey combination is not good, either small and weak or big and slow. Need to shake up the entire right side, and get Liam to improve on LT.

Armstrong really needs to grow and kyren williams needs to be an impact frosh because if Jones is getting PT at RB again, we're in trouble.

Lugg will makehis mark.

 

[twalsh]

I agreed with your entire post but I just want to highlight the point above. It amazes me that some ND fans can't understand that pointing out that the fumble reversal was a bad call doesn't mean we don't also realize it wouldn't have changed the outcome of the game and Clemson would have still won. Both things are true. No one is trying to make excuses for the loss. For those saying it was a good call, please provide the conclusive video evidence that shows the ball actually touching out of bounds and not some grainy picture that only shows the tip of the ball hovering over the out of bounds.

For what it's worth, Mike Pereira thought it was a bad reversal too. He knows a little something about officiating:

View embedded media

The fumble call was the poster child for disputable. It might have touched out of bounds, it might have just been over the out of bounds line without touching, Very hard to tell from replay. That’s what disputable means.

And bitching about or discussing a call does not imply that you are suggesting that the outcome would have been different if the call had gone the other way.

 

[Get Nasty]

Lugg will makehis mark.

I hope so, he looked solid in the limited time i saw him. I like the potential of liam and banks. At times you see them make great plays so it's improving and cleaning up mistakes. Hainsey, kraemer, Mustipher I didn't really see that much out of them. Hainsey just gets thrown around too much. ON one play early vs clemson you see him getting thrown to the ground. That shouldn't happen to a tackle.

 

[twalsh]

That looks like a 9-3 team at best.

What did the 2018 team look like on 1/1/18?

 

[d1042]

What did the 2018 team look like on 1/1/18?

Schedule 2019 looks friendly after UGA. 11-1 possible 10-2 good target. 9-3 looks like the floor.

 

[Get Nasty]

What did the 2018 team look like on 1/1/18?

Well they just beat a good LSU team. The D looked good and returned almost everyone, the offense was without two of their best players (suspensions). I had huge hopes for 2018 if wimbush improved, he didn't really improve much so he got pulled (in my opinion for a lesser option). I didn't take into account how bad of a play caller long is. He calls 2 or 3 amazing plays each game (not clemson) but the vast majority of his plays are very predictable and don't play to the teams strengths. Our schedule for 2018 looked very tough, our schedule for 2019 looks even more difficult. We got lucky that the best teams on our schedule in 18 had down years, i doubt that happens again, especially Georgia and UM.

ND in 19 SHOULD be better offensively, if Love comes back, they'll probably be slightly better vs the pass than this year on D, but not as good vs the run. If our LBs are Simon, Allen, Bauer we will have the most athletic LBs Nd's had since Lou holtz days. They will be very green, but talented. If Bilal wins the job, we have a huge weakness.

WHAT I WANT IS ND TO IMPROVE THROUGHOUT THE YEAR!!!

That just doesn't happen under kelly. We keep playing worse as the season progresses then are not good in bowl games.

 

[napy2121]

Well they just beat a good LSU team. The D looked good and returned almost everyone, the offense was without two of their best players (suspensions). I had huge hopes for 2018 if wimbush improved, he didn't really improve much so he got pulled (in my opinion for a lesser option). I didn't take into account how bad of a play caller long is. He calls 2 or 3 amazing plays each game (not clemson) but the vast majority of his plays are very predictable and don't play to the teams strengths. Our schedule for 2018 looked very tough, our schedule for 2019 looks even more difficult. We got lucky that the best teams on our schedule in 18 had down years, i doubt that happens again, especially Georgia and UM.

ND in 19 SHOULD be better offensively, if Love comes back, they'll probably be slightly better vs the pass than this year on D, but not as good vs the run. If our LBs are Simon, Allen, Bauer we will have the most athletic LBs Nd's had since Lou holtz days. They will be very green, but talented. If Bilal wins the job, we have a huge weakness.

WHAT I WANT IS ND TO IMPROVE THROUGHOUT THE YEAR!!!

That just doesn't happen under kelly. We keep playing worse as the season progresses then are not good in bowl games.

Honestly take a step back man, Id argue ND improved the most in season this year than any I can remember going back to Holtz.

 

[sharkz77]

yeah, ruhland, kraemer, hainsey combination is not good, either small and weak or big and slow. Need to shake up the entire right side, and get Liam to improve on LT.

Armstrong really needs to grow and kyren williams needs to be an impact frosh because if Jones is getting PT at RB again, we're in trouble.

I hope so, he looked solid in the limited time i saw him. I like the potential of liam and banks. At times you see them make great plays so it's improving and cleaning up mistakes. Hainsey, kraemer, Mustipher I didn't really see that much out of them. Hainsey just gets thrown around too much. ON one play early vs clemson you see him getting thrown to the ground. That shouldn't happen to a tackle.[/QUOTE

So many uneducated opinions. So tired if people with no knowledge and lots of opinions.

 

[Get Nasty]

Honestly take a step back man, Id argue ND improved the most in season this year than any I can remember going back to Holtz.

What game did ND play the best in.

On D - SYracuse no doubt but that was just a brilliantly executed game plan, 2nd best was UM first game of year
On O - Wake? (4th game of the year) Florida state with wimbush, or an early game vs stanford or tech?

When did ND play the worst on O and D (clemson is the answer for both and last game of the year but we'll look at the next worst)
2nd worst on O - Pitt, USC, NW......... 3 of the last 5 games
2nd worst on D - USC, last game of the year


Statistically on Defense ND played their second best game vs UM (cuse was the first against backup qb)
Statistically on Offense we got worse every month by a large margin, especially books play. The only game that was an outlier was Florida State with Wimbush. That game was NDs most efficient offensively.

I think Nd showed good mental toughness late in the year, but their play DID NOT IMPROVE. The bowl game shows that to a T