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VTND

ND Expert
Feb 5, 2012
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Our WR's have been bad all year. Don't get me wrong it was not all their fault but Claypool and Boykin really are not good enough. Both are big, slow WR's and probably neither will be drafted. From my view, Will Fuller was the last big time guy we had. He had big time speed and could stretch defenses. Kelly desperately needs to find a guy that has field stretching speed. Hopefully Lenzy or one of the other young guys can step up and be that guy moving forward.

Spring football should be interesting this year with many of our core players both on the Offense and Defense leaving. Who does everyone predict will fill these roles?

The Clemson loss sucks but it is what it is. No use dwelling on it now.
 
Our WR's have been bad all year. Don't get me wrong it was not all their fault but Claypool and Boykin really are not good enough. Both are big, slow WR's and probably neither will be drafted. From my view, Will Fuller was the last big time guy we had. He had big time speed and could stretch defenses. Kelly desperately needs to find a guy that has field stretching speed. Hopefully Lenzy or one of the other young guys can step up and be that guy moving forward.

Spring football should be interesting this year with many of our core players both on the Offense and Defense leaving. Who does everyone predict will fill these roles?

The Clemson loss sucks but it is what it is. No use dwelling on it now.
QB: Book
RB: Jones/Armstrong
WR: Austin, Claypool, Boykin, Finke
TE: Kmet
LT: Eichenburg
LG: Banks
C: Ruhland
RG: Kraemer
RT: Hainsey

DE: Okwara/Hayes
DT: MTA/Amendola
DE: Kareem/Ade
DT: Hinish

LB: Simon/Bauer/Heath/Bilal

S: Gilman/Elliott
CB: Love/Pride

I don't see a huge drop off on offense, Dexter will be missed. I think Julian comes back, Secondary should be outstanding if so. the LB crew will be the biggest question mark. . Replacing Coney/Tranquil won't be easy. A lot of inexperience here.
 
The depth chart with the highest upside that ND could field next year, is as follows, IMO, but they won't do it and risk losing a couple games while the talented players grow together.

QB: Phil Jurkovec
RB: Jafar Armstrong
WR: Kevin Austin Jr
WR: Braden Lenzy
Slot: Chris Finke
TE: Cole Kmet
LT: Liam Eichenberg
LG: Aaron Banks
C: Robert Hainsey (Get him on some of that Ostarine)
RG: Tommy Kraemer
RT: Josh Lugg

SDE: Khalid Kareem
NG: Myron Tagavailoa-Amosa
DT: Jayson Ademilola
DROP: Julian Okwara
Rover: Derrik Allen
Buck: Shayne Simon
Mike: Bo Bauer
CB: Julian Love
FS: Kyle Hamilton / Jalen Elliot
SS: Houston Griffith / Alohi GIlman
CB: Troy Pride

That team isn't an upgrade on 2018, in 2019, but it has higher potential down the road... That's for certain.
 
The depth chart with the highest upside that ND could field next year, is as follows, IMO, but they won't do it and risk losing a couple games while the talented players grow together.

QB: Phil Jurkovec
RB: Jafar Armstrong
WR: Kevin Austin Jr
WR: Braden Lenzy
Slot: Chris Finke
TE: Cole Kmet
LT: Liam Eichenberg
LG: Aaron Banks
C: Robert Hainsey (Get him on some of that Ostarine)
RG: Tommy Kraemer
RT: Josh Lugg

SDE: Khalid Kareem
NG: Myron Tagavailoa-Amosa
DT: Jayson Ademilola
DROP: Julian Okwara
Rover: Derrik Allen
Buck: Shayne Simon
Mike: Bo Bauer
CB: Julian Love
FS: Kyle Hamilton / Jalen Elliot
SS: Houston Griffith / Alohi GIlman
CB: Troy Pride

That team isn't an upgrade on 2018, in 2019, but it has higher potential down the road... That's for certain.
I think that lineup would be fantastic for the most part. I just can't sign of on two of those: sitting Book and playing Lenzy yet (doubt he's ready).
 
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I think that lineup would be fantastic for the most part. I just can't sign of on two of those: sitting Book and playing Lenzy yet (doubt he's ready).
And I think both the young safeties should play behind Gilman and Elliott.
 
I think that lineup would be fantastic for the most part. I just can't sign of on two of those: sitting Book and playing Lenzy yet (doubt he's ready).

Book can't throw the ball downfield. You're completely useless against an athletic defense if they can smother you within 15 yards of the LOS... He's a legitimately bad downfield passer of the football. Did you see the ropes that Lawrence was throwing, 25 yards down field, in stride?.. He's 2 years younger than Book.
 
And I think both the young safeties should play behind Gilman and Elliott.

Gilman can't run with elite wide receivers, nor can Elliot. They are better players right now, but you can't win a playoff game with them. All the Clemson OC's had to do was run an exchange route, or line Justyn Ross (a true freshman) up in the slot to match him up on Alohi Gilman, and he had no chance. He's a great run filler, but he can't run with quality wide receivers.
 
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I think Book did as good as anybody could have possibly hoped for, especially given the lack of big playmaking ability at the skill positions on this offense.

I think Book is fine when he's able to operate in a 1 score game or with a lead .. i think the problems start when ND needs a more dynamic passing game in a hurry up offense situation.

I still think Ian Book is one of the better players in the program, and will be one of the best QBs in college football in 2019. One bad game doesn't define a career. Book had a very good season and i'm expecting some growth heading into 2019.

He doesn't have as big an arm as Lawrence but i think he has enough tools to be very good at the college level, and his performance up to this point proves it.

ND has way bigger fish to fry than their QB position right now.
 
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Book can't throw the ball downfield. You're completely useless against an athletic defense if they can smother you within 15 yards of the LOS... He's a legitimately bad downfield passer of the football. Did you see the ropes that Lawrence was throwing, 25 yards down field, in stride?.. He's 2 years younger than Book.
Lawrence is also a one of a kind talent.
 
Gilman can't run with elite wide receivers, nor can Elliot. They are better players right now, but you can't win a playoff game with them. All the Clemson OC's had to do was run an exchange route, or line Justyn Ross (a true freshman) up in the slot to match him up on Alohi Gilman, and he had no chance. He's a great run filler, but he can't run with quality wide receivers.
Gilman was beat once because he made the wrong read. He can run with anybody.
 
Book can't throw the ball downfield. You're completely useless against an athletic defense if they can smother you within 15 yards of the LOS... He's a legitimately bad downfield passer of the football. Did you see the ropes that Lawrence was throwing, 25 yards down field, in stride?.. He's 2 years younger than Book.
This coupled with the fact our receivers are very average doesn’t help.
 
I've said it countless times now and i'll say it again. Book does not have the confidence to throw to the wide side of the field. I hyped chase up big time pre season and he didn't have the season i expected, but he also wasn't given the chance. I've gone back and focused on him and he is open a ton of the time, but book always looks short side first and typically never progresses to the wide side. Only time he did was vs NW and look what Chase did. Boykin is slow, terrible body control, and might be the worst high point catcher i've ever seen. Actually he doesn't even attempt to high point the ball. Boykin and Chase are going to play a lot next year but we need talent to keep running WRs in and out, keeping them fresh. Even though CLemson has 2 first round WRs they bring other people in to keep them fresh.

With that said, doesn't matter how good our WRs are if we don't have a qb that can throw downfield or will stay in the pocket. The formula is out on book, it's the easiest game plan against him right now.
 
Our WR's have been bad all year. Don't get me wrong it was not all their fault but Claypool and Boykin really are not good enough. Both are big, slow WR's and probably neither will be drafted. From my view, Will Fuller was the last big time guy we had. He had big time speed and could stretch defenses. Kelly desperately needs to find a guy that has field stretching speed. Hopefully Lenzy or one of the other young guys can step up and be that guy moving forward.

Spring football should be interesting this year with many of our core players both on the Offense and Defense leaving. Who does everyone predict will fill these roles?

The Clemson loss sucks but it is what it is. No use dwelling on it now.

A few posters here over hype commits. Then the fans expectations follow the hype.
Both Claypool and Boykin might be better NFL players than in the college game.
I am not sure ND is ‘in the market’, so to speak for the elite WR’s. ND $ is not competing for them.
 
Our WR's have been bad all year. Don't get me wrong it was not all their fault but Claypool and Boykin really are not good enough. Both are big, slow WR's and probably neither will be drafted. From my view, Will Fuller was the last big time guy we had. He had big time speed and could stretch defenses. Kelly desperately needs to find a guy that has field stretching speed. Hopefully Lenzy or one of the other young guys can step up and be that guy moving forward.

Spring football should be interesting this year with many of our core players both on the Offense and Defense leaving. Who does everyone predict will fill these roles?

The Clemson loss sucks but it is what it is. No use dwelling on it now.
It would be great for a burner like Young to develop to where Boykin and Claypool alternate with each other, you have Finke, one of the fastest players on the team, in the slot, and a burner out wide. That’s a better combo than both big receivers playing outside together.
 
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Gilman was beat once because he made the wrong read. He can run with anybody.

Gilman thought Ross was going to break the route off at the sticks for the first down and allowed himself to take a misstep, but there is no way Alohi Gilman runs in coverage with Justyn Ross. In fact, there was a post route earlier in the game, when Lawrence attacked Gilman. Ross has 2 steps on him in that route 2 and Lawrence tossed a frozen rope. Gilman can run with a lot of players in college football, he can't run with that 6'4 antelope.... He'll face a similar challenge next year when Georgia puts Mecole Hardman in the slot on Gilman. He's even faster than Ross is.
 
Gilman thought Ross was going to break the route off at the sticks for the first down and allowed himself to take a misstep, but there is no way Alohi Gilman runs in coverage with Justyn Ross. In fact, there was a post route earlier in the game, when Lawrence attacked Gilman. Ross has 2 steps on him in that route 2 and Lawrence tossed a frozen rope. Gilman can run with a lot of players in college football, he can't run with that 6'4 antelope.... He'll face a similar challenge next year when Georgia puts Mecole Hardman in the slot on Gilman. He's even faster than Ross is.

U can bicker about the changes IIO propose but remember 2 things -
1 you will be doing exactly what Kelly will do, balk at change
2 Book has to go. He flat out was exposed Happy feet and does not see open recovers and can’t throw long. He is an upgrade only because our QBs have been so bad for so long

ND can’t get s 5 star qb? Or we can’t develop a QB? Both
 
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U can bicker about the changes IIO propose but remember 2 things -
1 you will be doing exactly what Kelly will do, balk at change
2 Book has to go. He flat out was exposed Happy feet and does not see open recovers and can’t throw long. He is an upgrade only because our QBs have been so bad for so long

ND can’t get s 5 star qb? Or we can’t develop a QB? Both

Outside of completion percentage I don't think he's an upgrade on 2015 Deshone Kizer. Deshine was a better runner and could make all the downfield throws. It certainly helped to have Fuller out there to throw to, but 2015 Kizer doesn't put 3 points on the board on Saturday. I firmly believe that.
 
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I posted something in another thread that was wordy but I think it’s more appropriate here especially since IIO’s projection touched on some similar points:

1. Coaches need to ask tough questions on qb. Does book have more upside to reach? Is jurkovic championship caliber eventually? If not why don’t/can’t we get that guy at qb?

2. Oline. Well recruited position. Why did we get dominated? I’ve seen coaching suggested but I’m not sure I buy that after 1 year. I think experience vs 5th year sure fire pros is to explain.

3. WR- we should have developed a speed guy for the late run. No young, no Lenzy, Austin?

4. We need, NEED Derek Allen to move down to play rover next year. He’s exactly the sideline to sideline guy we could use like Clemson had. Tranquill was a very good player but the stark difference between the linebackers Clemson had running around was clear to me.

Sorry this was still too long I know.
 
I don't believe Book played that poorly. From what I saw our Oline was consistently over run and he was in trouble immediately. Stay in the pocket? What pocket? He was running for his life. The game plan sucked against that talent. 5 weeks to prepare
 
I posted something in another thread that was wordy but I think it’s more appropriate here especially since IIO’s projection touched on some similar points:

1. Coaches need to ask tough questions on qb. Does book have more upside to reach? Is jurkovic championship caliber eventually? If not why don’t/can’t we get that guy at qb?

2. Oline. Well recruited position. Why did we get dominated? I’ve seen coaching suggested but I’m not sure I buy that after 1 year. I think experience vs 5th year sure fire pros is to explain.

3. WR- we should have developed a speed guy for the late run. No young, no Lenzy, Austin?

4. We need, NEED Derek Allen to move down to play rover next year. He’s exactly the sideline to sideline guy we could use like Clemson had. Tranquill was a very good player but the stark difference between the linebackers Clemson had running around was clear to me.

Sorry this was still too long I know.

All great points!
 
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I don't believe Book played that poorly. From what I saw our Oline was consistently over run and he was in trouble immediately. Stay in the pocket? What pocket? He was running for his life. The game plan sucked against that talent. 5 weeks to prepare
Yea he played poorly. It was certainly due to not having time but on a number of plays he pulled to run too fast. Sometimes he pulled to run even though they had a spy right in front of him when he should have flattened out and extended the play.

And the key play I’m still harping on in my mind- the play where he DID extend the play and threw it out of bounds but had Armstrong streaming down field 3 steps wide open for a td. It’s too painful to watch again to scout just how bad his play was but that one play still kinda haunts me as the game was still competitive at that point.
 
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It would be great for a burner like Young to develop to where Boykin and Claypool alternate with each other, you have Finke, one of the fastest players on the team, in the slot, and a burner out wide. That’s a better combo than both big receivers playing outside together.
What makes you think young is a burner? He got caught from behind at Wake, and hasn't looked like a burner on kick off. Not saying he's slow, I just don't see burner.
 
I posted something in another thread that was wordy but I think it’s more appropriate here especially since IIO’s projection touched on some similar points:

1. Coaches need to ask tough questions on qb. Does book have more upside to reach? Is jurkovic championship caliber eventually? If not why don’t/can’t we get that guy at qb?

2. Oline. Well recruited position. Why did we get dominated? I’ve seen coaching suggested but I’m not sure I buy that after 1 year. I think experience vs 5th year sure fire pros is to explain.

3. WR- we should have developed a speed guy for the late run. No young, no Lenzy, Austin?

4. We need, NEED Derek Allen to move down to play rover next year. He’s exactly the sideline to sideline guy we could use like Clemson had. Tranquill was a very good player but the stark difference between the linebackers Clemson had running around was clear to me.

Sorry this was still too long I know.
Agree but Tranquil wasn't the problem, Bilal was. Bilal again with 5 weeks of prep had no clue what he was doing. 2nd half they kept running the qb read option right to his side, and every time bilal was clueless. Bilal is just a bad bad bad football player with amazing physical traits. If you are clueless mentally, your physical traits don't matter.
 
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I don't believe Book played that poorly. From what I saw our Oline was consistently over run and he was in trouble immediately. Stay in the pocket? What pocket? He was running for his life. The game plan sucked against that talent. 5 weeks to prepare
He had a solid pocket for 90% of the first half, 2nd half different story where clemson just brought pressure.

If the pocket started to shrink he was gone. If he would have stayed in the pocket and scanned to the wide side he would have found open ND players.
 
Agree but Tranquil wasn't the problem, Bilal was. Bilal again with 5 weeks of prep had no clue what he was doing. 2nd half they kept running the qb read option right to his side, and every time bilal was clueless. Bilal is just a bad bad bad football player with amazing physical traits. If you are clueless mentally, your physical traits don't matter.
bilal finished the season regressing I won’t argue but I think you missed my point. It’s ok I’ve been wordy enough.
 
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Yea he played poorly. It was certainly due to not having time but on a number of plays he pulled to run too fast. Sometimes he pulled to run even though they had a spy right in front of him when he should have flattened out and extended the play.

And the key play I’m still harping on in my mind- the play where he DID extend the play and threw it out of bounds but had Armstrong streaming down field 3 steps wide open for a td. It’s too painful to watch again to scout just how bad his play was but that one play still kinda haunts me as the game was still competitive at that point.
The armstrong play was the difference in the game. I firmly believe if Book was a solid QB ND goes up 10-3 in the 2nd quarter and the game is completely different. Instead we go for it on fourth down the next play, bad pass, and clemson scores a quick TD to start taking the game over.

The play to armstrong was a roll out right, broken play by the Clemson D. All he needed to do was throw it 30 yards while running right. Not a huge ask. The other 3 qbs in the playoffs make that play over and over.

I talked about that play a ton during the game, and how 1 play can make a difference. Our safety makes mistake, ND gets burned, Clemson safety makes mistake, we throw it away out of bounds because that's not where the play was intended to go.

Average at best QB play will hold this team back. Book is far from championship caliber.
 
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This post demonstrates a lot of ignorance ... Gilman gets beat once and now he stinks ... yet we watched all pro Harrison smith regularly get beat in college.
Boykin and Claypool are big physical college receivers - Boykin has incredible body control and great hands.
Coaches need to use them correctly and they did most of the year. They aren’t burners but they are nightmare matchups in the red zone.
Boykin beat press coverage 3 times and Book did not lead him or throw it where only he could catch it.
Shit happens ... it doesn’t mean they suck.
 
What makes you think young is a burner? He got caught from behind at Wake, and hasn't looked like a burner on kick off. Not saying he's slow, I just don't see burner.
Maybe it’s Lenzy. Just someone who DBs have worry about blowing by them.
 
bilal finished the season regressing I won’t argue but I think you missed my point. It’s ok I’ve been wordy enough.
No i agree with your point that clemson lbs went sideline to sideline better than Drue. No question, my point was drue probably still wasn't 100%, he was limping some still, and he was far from the problem. Bilal would be running right when he had contain left, no clue who to check in coverage, awful blitzes, missed tackles, etc. Bilal was a big weakness on D.
 
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This post demonstrates a lot of ignorance ... Gilman gets beat once and now he stinks ... yet we watched all pro Harrison smith regularly get beat in college.
Boykin and Claypool are big physical college receivers - Boykin has incredible body control and great hands.
Coaches need to use them correctly and they did most of the year. They aren’t burners but they are nightmare matchups in the red zone.
Boykin beat press coverage 3 times and Book did not lead him or throw it where only he could catch it.
Shit happens ... it doesn’t mean they suck.
1. No one says gilman stinks, just that's he's not an elite cover safety and can get exposed 1-1 vs good WRs.
2. Boykin does not have excellent body control, just the opposite, he's like a giraffe playing the position, he has no control over his body and falls over all the time instead of actually going after and high pointing the ball
3. When did the coaches throw jump balls in the red zone to claypool who is 6'4 or 5 and a monster vertical? They did not use their size correctly like stanford does. Also, our redzone offense was terrible this year at times
4. No one is saying the players suck. I'm critical of boykin and book big time but they don't suck, they are just above average. Bilal different story, he's bad.
 
Plain straight ahead speed is rarely by itself successful. There is more to it.
Football players like Fuller or Ross are hard to find and that is why they are
coveted by fans.
 
The armstrong play was the difference in the game. I firmly believe if Book was a solid QB ND goes up 10-3 in the 2nd quarter and the game is completely different. Instead we go for it on fourth down the next play, bad pass, and clemson scores a quick TD to start taking the game over.

The play to armstrong was a roll out right, broken play by the Clemson D. All he needed to do was throw it 30 yards while running right. Not a huge ask. The other 3 qbs in the playoffs make that play over and over.

I talked about that play a ton during the game, and how 1 play can make a difference. Our safety makes mistake, ND gets burned, Clemson safety makes mistake, we throw it away out of bounds because that's not where the play was intended to go.

Average at best QB play will hold this team back. Book is far from championship caliber.
honestly that single play... I scoured this board thinking somebody would have talked about it already here, started a post. I could have missed it idk, but it was THE pivotal point for nd in the game imho. That and the bullshit fumble overturn on kickoff.
 
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honestly that single play... I scoured this board thinking somebody would have talked about it already here, started a post. I could have missed it idk, but it was THE pivotal point for nd in the game imho. That and the bullshit fumble overturn on kickoff.

That call on the KO was correct. give up the nonsense. CU was a better overall team andmight just have upped the intensity and a worse blowout might have ensued.
 
That call on the KO was correct. give up the nonsense. CU was a better overall team andmight just have upped the intensity and a worse blowout might have ensued.
why was it correct, do you know the shape of the football isn't flat? If it had been called out i'd agree it stays out, but it was really really close.

Also, pretty sure the whistle blew dead before book's fumble was recovered by clemson.
 
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Your stubbornness is why other fan bases mock ND fans.
 
Your stubbornness is why other fan bases mock ND fans.
ND lost 30-3, the better team won but what else should the guy discuss? How it could have been 50-3? Bottom line is early calls in the 1st quarter were overturned and possibly incorrectly which would have altered the trajectory of the game ... didn’t happen, doesn’t mean Clemson would not still have won, and great teams make their own breaks.
As for being mocked by other teams fans, umm ok. Mock all you want I don’t think we are too concerned about it, most of us have enough perspective in life to not define ourselves by an opposing fans view of our football program or if our grasping for answers after a disappointing loss.
 
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This post demonstrates a lot of ignorance ... Gilman gets beat once and now he stinks ... yet we watched all pro Harrison smith regularly get beat in college.
Boykin and Claypool are big physical college receivers - Boykin has incredible body control and great hands.
Coaches need to use them correctly and they did most of the year. They aren’t burners but they are nightmare matchups in the red zone.
Boykin beat press coverage 3 times and Book did not lead him or throw it where only he could catch it.
Shit happens ... it doesn’t mean they suck.

He doesn't stink. He just can't run with the elite receivers in college football. He got roasted by Ross on two separate occasions. He's a great enforcer in the box, but he's a liability in deep coverage. Clark Lea will need to fix that in his scheme going forward, or Georgia will isolate Holloman or Hardman on Gilman too... He can't be left in cover 1 situations without safety help on his man when they invert wide receivers to get their fast guy in the slot, or run an exchange at that snap. It's going to happen at times. Every defensive back is going to get beat. Deion Sanders and Champ Bailey got beat. Nobody should be jumping off a cliff because Gilman couldn't run with Justyn Ross, but did you see a single scenario where their much maligned secondary couldn't run with our guys?
 
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That call on the KO was correct. give up the nonsense. CU was a better overall team andmight just have upped the intensity and a worse blowout might have ensued.
I don’t believe it was conclusive, the cone of the ball was not touching anything. A score there and a score on that Armstrong play and it’s a different game. I’m not sure we’d have won anyhow and Clemson was better but the game would have unquestionably been different than 30-3. Sorry if it offends your sensibilities so I’ll say it again because this wasn’t my point, yes Clemson was better.
 
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