Well the bs late hit on Book was the difference....

[Patrirish]

You actually think only three guys played those positions last night ? ND substituted liberally all game as they usually do. You should try and pay attention.

I know numbers and I know that if you rush only 3 DLinemen, irrespective of substitutions, they’ll get fatigued more easily than if you rushed 4 or 5 defensive lineman.

The resistance faced by only 3 is numerically greater than the resistance that 4 or 5 face.

Teams play their starters more than their subs, ergo the starters get fatigued quicker.

That’s irrefutable.

 

[Patrirish]

You actually think only three guys played those positions last night ? ND substituted liberally all game as they usually do. You should try and pay attention.

So, according to you, they substituted so liberally that the 2nd and 3rd team DLinemen had more playing time than the starters. ? ? ?

That’s your opinion ?

 

[echowaker]

So, according to you, they substituted so liberally that the 2nd and 3rd team DLinemen had more playing time than the starters. ? ? ?

That’s your opinion ?

They generally play 9-10 d- linemen each week. Fatigue was a non factor. Every high profile college team does and every NFL team does substitute liberally on the d line.

 

[echowaker]

So, according to you, they substituted so liberally that the 2nd and 3rd team DLinemen had more playing time than the starters. ? ? ?

That’s your opinion ?

Check the participation chart. No one said the numbers were spread evenly but you're acting Okwara,Kareem and Hinish played every snap.

 

[Patrirish]

Check the participation chart. No one said the numbers were spread evenly but you're acting Okwara,Kareem and Hinish played every snap.

No I’m not, that’s your convoluted attempt to mongrelize my premise.

So if your starters aren’t playing, would you admit that there’s a diminishment in the quality/talent level between the starters and their replacements ?

Don’t try to avoid answering the question.

Take your time.

Get help if you don’t know the answer.

Second question.

What would cause you to pull your starter and then reinsert him.

1. Fatigue
2. Injury
3. Poor play

 

[W8LNXYR]

I think we definitely received a gift there. We are not a top 10 team. USC got robbed. There were multiple bad calls against them. Watching LSU and Florida and it’s not even close. Michigan game might be a loss.

Michigan is terrible. Come on.

 

[Scots-Irishballa]

I know numbers and I know that if you rush only 3 DLinemen, irrespective of substitutions, they’ll get fatigued more easily than if you rushed 4 or 5 defensive lineman.

The resistance faced by only 3 is numerically greater than the resistance that 4 or 5 face.

Teams play their starters more than their subs, ergo the starters get fatigued quicker.

That’s irrefutable.

Yet more D-lineman to rotate .............................

 

[Shulkswagen]

I think the percentage is about 20 %.

So if a doctor told you that if you drank a certain beverage that there was a 20 % chance of you getting cancer and dying, you’d be okay with drinking that beverage ? ? ?

Much ado about nothing or a serious concern ?

The win % after Book TD went up to 99% ... and we win that at least 99 out of 100 times. The one way to let them back in the game is to rush 5 or 6 and get beat deep for a TD without them using clock or TOs.

 

[Get Nasty]

No I’m not, that’s your convoluted attempt to mongrelize my premise.

So if your starters aren’t playing, would you admit that there’s a diminishment in the quality/talent level between the starters and their replacements ?

Don’t try to avoid answering the question.

Take your time.

Get help if you don’t know the answer.

Second question.

What would cause you to pull your starter and then reinsert him.

1. Fatigue
2. Injury
3. Poor play

None of the 3.... keep them fresh for the entire game is the answer.

 

[Patrirish]

Yet more D-lineman to rotate .............................

When you rotate the talent level diminishes

 

[Scots-Irishballa]

Look, can we talk about the real issue

When you rotate the talent level diminishes

Not when you have the depth we do at
That position.

 

[Patrirish]

Look, can we talk about the real issue



Not when you have the depth we do at
That position.

Then why weren’t they effective ?

 

[d1042]

In 3-4 or 3 down you need to send a LB or S or both!
geez the kid was a true Fr. given all the time in the world to find a WR running free. After that isn’t working, you think an adjustment would be made!

 

[echowaker]

No I’m not, that’s your convoluted attempt to mongrelize my premise.

So if your starters aren’t playing, would you admit that there’s a diminishment in the quality/talent level between the starters and their replacements ?

Don’t try to avoid answering the question.

Take your time.

Get help if you don’t know the answer.

Second question.

What would cause you to pull your starter and then reinsert him.

1. Fatigue
2. Injury
3. Poor play

are you really this stupid ? defensive line is a position group where there are always substitutions throughout the course of a game. do you even watch games ? USC ran 70 plays. i guess you think guys like Kareem and Okwara were on the field for all of them. Jim Carrey and Jeff Daniels looking for a third. you'd steal the show.

 

[echowaker]

Then why weren’t they effective ?

guessing like in everything football related you just don't understand the philosophy of the strategy utilized.

 

[twalsh]

Now the CRYBABIES are bitching when we win.

That's because we aren't losing enough to satisfy them. And especially staying away from bad losses.

 

[Golson5]

are you really this stupid ? defensive line is a position group where there are always substitutions throughout the course of a game. do you even watch games ? USC ran 70 plays. i guess you think guys like Kareem and Okwara were on the field for all of them. Jim Carrey and Jeff Daniels looking for a third. you'd steal the show.

I didn't read anything but yes he is that stupid

 

[tbonesays]

Yes, that’s a 5 yard penalty and a rekick which could have had different results leading to a possible loss.

What the F was he thinking and why weren’t the players told where to position themselves before they even took the field.

The football universe knew that an onside kick was coming

I thought the first flag is just a sideline infraction warning. Also I believe BK can nullify it by calling a timeout. Not sure though

 

[Patrirish]

guessing like in everything football related you just don't understand the philosophy of the strategy utilized.

I understand it far better than you.

I also understand “falloff”, something you seem to ignore.

I understand the primary reason for substituting players ........ fatigue.

I understand that fatigue equals more injuries.

I also understand numerical advantages/disadvantages in offensive and defensive schemes.

Why haven’t you answered the questions I posed to you in other threads ?

For a self proclaimed know it all, you don’t seem to know it all.

 

[Patrirish]

are you really this stupid ? defensive line is a position group where there are always substitutions throughout the course of a game. do you even watch games ? USC ran 70 plays. i guess you think guys like Kareem and Okwara were on the field for all of them. Jim Carrey and Jeff Daniels looking for a third. you'd steal the show.

Once again you’re afraid to answer questions I pose to you.

Let me rephrase the question such that even you can understand it.

Is there a “falloff” in talent when you pull your starter and insert his backup ?

Yes or No

 

[Patrirish]

are you really this stupid ? defensive line is a position group where there are always substitutions throughout the course of a game. do you even watch games ? USC ran 70 plays. i guess you think guys like Kareem and Okwara were on the field for all of them. Jim Carrey and Jeff Daniels looking for a third. you'd steal the show.

Let’s deal with facts, not your arrogant posturing.

Of the 70 plays, how many did each of the three starters play and how many plays did each of their replacements play ?

 

[beachcardinal]

Yes, that’s a 5 yard penalty and a rekick which could have had different results leading to a possible loss.

What the F was he thinking and why weren’t the players told where to position themselves before they even took the field.

The football universe knew that an onside kick was coming

15 yard and a rekick. It an unsportsmanlike conduct call. He isn't a player, where it would be 5.

 

[Shulkswagen]

15 yard and a rekick. It an unsportsmanlike conduct call. He isn't a player, where it would be 5.

Here’s what rulebook has to say ... if no contact is made with official ... dead ball foul no replay of down.


During a kickoff return, the head coach and/or other coaches are outside the coaching box and are in the restricted area or on the field of play near the sideline. No physical interference is made with an official during the play. RULING: Administer as a dead-ball foul.
First infraction: Warning for sideline interference. No yardage penalty. Second and third infractions: Delay of game for sideline interference,
five yards from the succeeding spot.
Fourth and subsequent infractions: Team unsportsmanlike conduct foul for sideline interference. Penalize 15 yards at the succeeding spot.

 

[Patrirish]

15 yard and a rekick. It an unsportsmanlike conduct call. He isn't a player, where it would be 5.

Are you sure ?

That would mean that USC would be kicking from the 50.

Ten yard minimum means a USC recovery would be between the ND 40 and ND 30 with a minute left. 10 to 20 yards and the FG would be from the 10 or 20.

Are you sure about it being 15 and not 5 ?

How could the refs miss Kelly on the field during the onside kick ?

 

[Shulkswagen]

Are you sure ?

That would mean that USC would be kicking from the 50.

Ten yard minimum means a USC recovery would be between the ND 40 and ND 30 with a minute left. 10 to 20 yards and the FG would be from the 10 or 20.

Are you sure about it being 15 and not 5 ?

How could the refs miss Kelly on the field during the onside kick ?

It’s a dead ball foul, penalty assessed after the result of the ply it’s not a re-kick, and the first infraction is a warning.

 

[Patrirish]

It’s a dead ball foul, penalty assessed after the result of the ply it’s not a re-kick, and the first infraction is a warning.

Why is it a dead ball foul when the foul occurred during a play ?

 

[beachcardinal]

It’s a dead ball foul, penalty assessed after the result of the ply it’s not a re-kick, and the first infraction is a warning.

No you are confusing a sideline warning with a coach actually being in the filed of play while the play is going on. That is different from a coach interfering with the ref abilty to move along the sideline. And it isn't dead ball, the foul occurs during the play. It is a rekick

 

[beachcardinal]

Are you sure ?

That would mean that USC would be kicking from the 50.

Ten yard minimum means a USC recovery would be between the ND 40 and ND 30 with a minute left. 10 to 20 yards and the FG would be from the 10 or 20.

Are you sure about it being 15 and not 5 ?

How could the refs miss Kelly on the field during the onside kick ?

Yes it is an unspotsmanlike conduct penalty. They were Pac-12 refs, th worst in the world. They also thought there was a personal foul committed against Book. Haven't seen anyone from either team that agree with that one.

 

[Get Nasty]

Yes it is an unspotsmanlike conduct penalty. They were Pac-12 refs, th worst in the world. They also thought there was a personal foul committed against Book. Haven't seen anyone from either team that agree with that one.

Don’t stop there on the missed pass interference on usc, missed holds on usc, etc. usc just had their least penalized game. Hmmmm

 

[Shulkswagen]

No you are confusing a sideline warning with a coach actually being in the filed of play while the play is going on. That is different from a coach interfering with the ref abilty to move along the sideline. And it isn't dead ball, the foul occurs during the play. It is a rekick

I just read the rule book ... if you are in the field and there is no contact with a player or referee during the play it’s a sideline warning on the first infraction amd a deadly of game on the second. They even give the kickoff return as an example in the rule book. Have you ever seen this called? I haven’t. Maybe I am misinterpreting but doesn’t seem so.

 

[echowaker]

Let’s deal with facts, not your arrogant posturing.

Of the 70 plays, how many did each of the three starters play and how many plays did each of their replacements play ?

check the participation chart for your answer. not the least bit interested in doing research for you.

 

[echowaker]

I understand it far better than you.

I also understand “falloff”, something you seem to ignore.

I understand the primary reason for substituting players ........ fatigue.

I understand that fatigue equals more injuries.

I also understand numerical advantages/disadvantages in offensive and defensive schemes.

Why haven’t you answered the questions I posed to you in other threads ?

For a self proclaimed know it all, you don’t seem to know it all.

my discarded toenail clippings possess far more football knowledge than you'd ever hope to know in your lifetime. just sayin '

 

[echowaker]

Once again you’re afraid to answer questions I pose to you.

Let me rephrase the question such that even you can understand it.

Is there a “falloff” in talent when you pull your starter and insert his backup ?

Yes or No

in some cases perhaps, but again every team liberally rotates personnel at the defensive line positions at the college and NFL level. no one plays every snap. is that what you're advocating ? fatigue along the defensive line was a non issue for ND on Saturday night.

 

[d1042]

in some cases perhaps, but again every team liberally rotates personnel at the defensive line positions at the college and NFL level. no one plays every snap. is that what you're advocating ? fatigue along the defensive line was a non issue for ND on Saturday night.

the players did what was asked (yes, both teams tackled poorly), the problem is they executed a bad plan.

 

[Patrirish]

in some cases perhaps, but again every team liberally rotates personnel at the defensive line positions at the college and NFL level. no one plays every snap. is that what you're advocating ? fatigue along the defensive line was a non issue for ND on Saturday night.

No one, including myself, ever posited that players play every play, that’s your convoluted attempt to divert focus and avoid answering the question.

Fatigue tends to be cumulative over the course of a game and over the course of a season.

To state that fatigue isn’t a factor is to be naive at best.

 

[d1042]

No one, including myself, ever posited that players play every play, that’s your convoluted attempt to divert focus and avoid answering the question.

Fatigue tends to be a cumulative over the course of a game and over the course of a season.

To state that fatigue isn’t a factor is to be naive at best.

Fatigue can also come from failed results. The players can feel fatigue from executing a plan that is not working; the frustration can often be manifested as fatigue. USC does not rotate nor substitute players so they played as much as ND players, or more. But when things are going well, fatigue is replaced by adrenaline boosts.
I think the ND players fatigue was worse because they were unconsciously becoming frustrated with the game plan.

The ND defense was built to be aggressive and to be on the attack, but Sat. nite was an attempt at whole different kind of plan. The free attack aggression was not part of the game plan. ND did not go after SC, it waited for SC to come to them. They were swallowed alive!

 

[Patrirish]

my discarded toenail clippings possess far more football knowledge than you'd ever hope to know in your lifetime. just sayin '

That’s why I spent several hours with an NFL team’s executives on Monday. Who were you meeting with on Monday ?

Oh wait, you know so much more about football than everyone else, including me, that you claimed that Book threw into double coverage on his pass to Claypool. (3:04 on 2nd Q game clock)

Book threw into single coverage with one DB (#8) covering Claypool, the other DB, #21 was covering Kmet and only came off his coverage of Kmet when Book released the pass to Claypool. # 21 never got within 5 yards of Claypool.

I thought you were an expert on football ?
I know that you claim to be an expert, but experts don’t miss the obvious coverage assignments as blatantly as you missed that one.

Yeah, you know so much about football, according to you and only you !

 

[Patrirish]

Fatigue can also come from failed results. The players can feel fatigue from executing a plan that is not working; the frustration can often be manifested as fatigue. USC does not rotate nor substitute players so they played as much as ND players, or more. But when things are going well, fatigue is replaced by adrenaline boosts.
I think the ND players fatigue was worse because they were unconsciously becoming frustrated with the game plan.

The ND defense was built to be aggressive and to be on the attack, but Sat. nite was an attempt at whole different kind of plan. The free attack aggression was not part of the game plan. ND did not go after SC, it waited for SC to come to them. They were swallowed alive!

I talked to some USC people this week and they were surprised that ND didn’t seem to adjust or at least put forth a more varied defense.

Defenses do tend to get more fatigued than offenses.

 

[d1042]

I talked to some USC people this week and they were surprised that ND didn’t seem to adjust or at least put forth a more varied defense.

Defenses do tend to get more fatigued than offenses.

Crazy, but I do not think Kelly was all in on a route of SC! but I think his keep it close plan got out of hand. He had an ‘oh, shit’ moment!

 

[Get Nasty]

I talked to some USC people this week and they were surprised that ND didn’t seem to adjust or at least put forth a more varied defense.

Defenses do tend to get more fatigued than offenses.

But ND won the TOP by 2 minutes vs SC. That should correlate to everyone ripping and roaring on D. It did not, why? Because the offense crapped the bed most of the first and third quarter and the D just didn't play well second half. This allowed SC to stay in the game and continue running or passing the ball.

The biggest issue with the d in my mind were 3 parts

1. Lea didn't mix it up enough, kelly said it as much, but the overall plan was good
2. Tackling - MTA had Stepp stonewalled on 2 big plays and whiffed on both, leading to a 3rd down conversion and a TD, Gillman also tackled very poorly
3. Not fitting coverages properly by safeties - Jalen got burnt in the first half but it was a bad throw because of pressure - Gillman was late and bad angle 2nd half and the TD was caught

ND didn't play well on either side and USC made very good adjustments on the bye after washington because washington played the same D ND did. Still, ND beat their rival, a very talented team.

What if young doesn't randomly fumble ball and goes up 24-3? What if MTA doesn't whiff on the easiest behind the LOS tackles he'll ever have? What if our senior safeties followed game plan and actually covered their responsibilities? What if the offense actually pushed the ball just a little bit to Kmet and Claypool who were dominating their coverages? Again, ND got what they deserved because they didn't play well, a much closer game than necessary.