The Rich Get Richer: When Will Notre Dame Land a Gamebreaking Top 5 Overall Recruit? (#1 overall composite QB Jared Curtis to Georgia)

[ZibbyQuinn]

How could ND be considered "one of the most talented teams in the country" with only the 10th-ranked talent in the 247 Composite and just two players drafted in the first three rounds? It doesn't make sense.

Also, the last 15 years are relevant because the track record has shown over and over that despite the quality of coaching, ND is completely dominated by the tier 1 teams in college football with their present level of talent. Its not an argument about the coaches, its an argument about the talent specifically (and how the results of the football team are capped by the level of their talent). We've seen this level of talent play out, and its not good enough -- not by a long shot, regardless of who is coaching the roster at the time.

Hahahaha! How could they be considered “one of the most talented teams in the country” when they went to a national championship beating the SEC champ and BIG10 runner up on the way. In the most fair/competitive playoff format ever where teams had to earn their way rather than media deciding who were the best 4 teams.

You are a NARP- non athletic regular person. Sit behind your keyboard and running recruiting sites data without ever strapping on a jock.

 

[NDinNJ]

Here are the 85-man roster rankings in the 247 team talent composite rankings by year using the same last 8 year time frame:

2024: 9th
2023: 11th
2022: 10th - MFs first season
AVG: 10th

2021: 12th - BKs last season
2020: 8th
2019: 14th
2018: 10th
AVG: 11th

No movement, all flat.

ND has gone 0-3 vs OSU (the only tier 1 competition they've played over MFs tenure so far) and they've gone 1-4 if you want to include the Georgia win (but it doesnt change the point). All flat in performance as well vs the tier 1.

So outside of Ohio State who else is Tier 1? You named one team out of over 130 teams in the FBS. What other current teams are tier 1? NAME THEM!!

You dismiss Georgia, but Georgia has hauled in way more talent than even Ohio State over the past 5 years:
UGA Recruiting rankings:
2020 #1
2021 #4
2022 #3
2023 #2
2024 #1
2025 #2

Yet ND beat this Tier 1 team by 2 scores in a playoff game.

 

[sjb75]

So outside of Ohio State who else is Tier 1? You named one team out of over 130 teams in the FBS. What other current teams are tier 1? NAME THEM!!

You dismiss Georgia, but Georgia has hauled in way more talent than even Ohio State over the past 5 years:
UGA Recruiting rankings:
2020 #1
2021 #4
2022 #3
2023 #2
2024 #1
2025 #2

Yet ND beat this Tier 1 team by 2 scores in a playoff game.

You stated to me you were done directly responding to chase ball. You are channeling your inner Golson.

 

[NDinNJ]

You stated to me you were done directly responding to chase ball. You are channeling your inner Golson.

I keep forgetting.

 

[sjb75]

I keep forgetting.

I get it.

 

[Get Nasty]

So outside of Ohio State who else is Tier 1? You named one team out of over 130 teams in the FBS. What other current teams are tier 1? NAME THEM!!

You dismiss Georgia, but Georgia has hauled in way more talent than even Ohio State over the past 5 years:
UGA Recruiting rankings:
2020 #1
2021 #4
2022 #3
2023 #2
2024 #1
2025 #2

Yet ND beat this Tier 1 team by 2 scores in a playoff game.

Yeah they lost their starting QB the game before. Their off year is losing in the CFP before making the championship.

Bama, Clemson, Ohio State, Georgia, and I think Texas has entered Tier 1..... Nd is trying to get there as is PSU (two teams trying and are close). On the flip side, Clemson either takes a step forward and remains in Tier 1, or doesn't have the season they expect and could fall out.

 

[NDinNJ]

Yeah they lost their starting QB the game before. Their off year is losing in the CFP before making the championship.

Bama, Clemson, Ohio State, Georgia, and I think Texas has entered Tier 1..... Nd is trying to get there as is PSU (two teams trying and are close). On the flip side, Clemson either takes a step forward and remains in Tier 1, or doesn't have the season they expect and could fall out.

So what? ND had far more injuries to than Georgia. Everyone discounts the injuries ND had to overcome. Injuries are party of the game. Excuses are like assh*les, everyone has one and they all stink.

 

[Golson5]

Yeah they lost their starting QB the game before. Their off year is losing in the CFP before making the championship.

Bama, Clemson, Ohio State, Georgia, and I think Texas has entered Tier 1..... Nd is trying to get there as is PSU (two teams trying and are close). On the flip side, Clemson either takes a step forward and remains in Tier 1, or doesn't have the season they expect and could fall out.

When someone uses injury as an excuse when making an excuse about losing To ND, you just have to laugh and know they are either trolling or clueless.

So Texas has entered Tier 1 now?

Is that based on having 2 good seasons after having 4 subpar seasons in a row? Is it off of them winning the SEC this year, oh they didn't. Is it off of them winning or making a NC game, oh they didnt.

 

[chaseball]

Last year Ohio State was much better than everybody else in a tier of their own at the top. Notre Dame was squarely in the next cut of teams based on their F+.

When I think of tier 1 teams going forward I think of all the juggernaut rosters at the top of the talent rankings like Alabama Georgia Ohio State Texas Oregon

A lot of these programs were down or on the other side of the bracket and the table was perfectly set for Notre Dame to possibly steal a national title last year given all these external circumstances that fell right into their lap and yet they still couldn't seal the deal

Kirby Smart is going to have the bulldogs playing better than they did last year and that new coach at Alabama with that talent is going to do major things in my opinion. Essentially things are going to get a lot more difficult for Notre Dame to end up in the same position they were last year

 

[Golson5]

Last year Ohio State was much better than everybody else in a tier of their own at the top. Notre Dame was squarely in the next cut of teams based on their F+.

When I think of tier 1 teams going forward I think of all the juggernaut rosters at the top of the talent rankings like Alabama Georgia Ohio State Texas Oregon

A lot of these programs were down or on the other side of the bracket and the table was perfectly set for Notre Dame to possibly steal a national title last year given all these external circumstances that fell right into their lap and yet they still couldn't seal the deal

Kirby Smart is going to have the bulldogs playing better than they did last year and that new coach at Alabama with that talent is going to do major things in my opinion. Essentially things are going to get a lot more difficult for Notre Dame to end up in the same position they were last year

Fell right into our Lap 🤣🤣🤣

You mean like losing 3 starting OL, having our best player being injured for the entire playoff, having 4 DL out for the year and another playing on 1 leg, or do you mean having our best defensive player miss more than half of the year. Yeah things really fell into our lap 🤣🤣

There are no great teams again this year. Cfb is becoming more balanced because of the portal. We'll have another good chance to make a run this year because we'll be one of the more talented teams and have one of the best coaching staffs in the country

Oh so now Ga is back into Tier 1, it was just that one year we beat them you don't consider them Tier 1 but now they are back 🤣

 

[chaseball]

Georgia was down last year based on their f Plus but since they're recruiting so damn good and they still got most of what has made that program special intact I expect them to rebound same for Alabama they were down last year but I expect them to rebound after year two of this new coach Texas and Oregon have been on the rise in the NIL era pouring tons of money into their roster OSU is at the top of the sport right now All five of these programs have way more talent than Notre Dame and it's going to take a minor miracle in order to compete with them for national titles going forward

Then you got sleeper programs like LSU under BK and Lane Kiffins Ole Miss that could contend for national title.

I think Notre Dame could finish anywhere from 5 to 15th place in that window of teams going forward The only wrinkle is Marcus Freeman being so raw as a coach it's possible he may still have another gear of upside

 

[Get Nasty]

When someone uses injury as an excuse when making an excuse about losing To ND, you just have to laugh and know they are either trolling or clueless.

So Texas has entered Tier 1 now?

Is that based on having 2 good seasons after having 4 subpar seasons in a row? Is it off of them winning the SEC this year, oh they didn't. Is it off of them winning or making a NC game, oh they didnt.

Everyone has injuries (yes ND had a lot), but not every team loses their starting QB, and especially not the game before. That position by far has the biggest impact.

It's off their play on the field last 2 years, the coaching staff they've put together, and the fact they've actually closed the talent gap and had the number 1 2025 class, #3 in 2024, #3 2023, #5 2022. They are the best positioned team to enter the Tier 1 landscape if they aren't there now. ND/Oregon are next best, then PSU after that. Clemson, then Bama most likely to leave tier 1 if they do.

It's all opinion based, but with some facts to back it up.

 

[chaseball]

We'll really be able to see how the tears break down heading into the preseason/fall when SP+ releases their preseason projections at ESPN

 

[chaseball]

Everyone has injuries (yes ND had a lot), but not every team loses their starting QB, and especially not the game before. That position by far has the biggest impact.

It's off their play on the field last 2 years, the coaching staff they've put together, and the fact they've actually closed the talent gap and had the number 1 2025 class, #3 in 2024, #3 2023, #5 2022. They are the best positioned team to enter the Tier 1 landscape if they aren't there now. ND/Oregon are next best, then PSU after that. Clemson, then Bama most likely to leave tier 1 if they do.

It's all opinion based, but with some facts to back it up.

It's not opinion based though it's very much factual based on the data

When SP plus releases their preseason projections will know exactly how these programs are stacking up and how they fit into buckets/tiers.

Given Notre Dame's relatively hohum recruiting classes that are somewhere in the 10-15th range I know for a fact that they won't be near the first tier

 

[Golson5]

Everyone has injuries (yes ND had a lot), but not every team loses their starting QB, and especially not the game before. That position by far has the biggest impact.

It's off their play on the field last 2 years, the coaching staff they've put together, and the fact they've actually closed the talent gap and had the number 1 2025 class, #3 in 2024, #3 2023, #5 2022. They are the best positioned team to enter the Tier 1 landscape if they aren't there now. ND/Oregon are next best, then PSU after that. Clemson, then Bama most likely to leave tier 1 if they do.

It's all opinion based, but with some facts to back it up.

You're delusional

You have no facts to base it off. NDs 3 year record with MF is better than Texas. Texas has done less yet are tier 1 lol

You realize we have more 4 and 5 stars left on the team from the 23 and 24 class than Texas and any team in the country period?

I just realized you could possibly be Chase. Never put it together before

 

[chaseball]

You're delusional

You have no facts to base it off. NDs 3 year record with MF is better than Texas. Texas has done less yet are tier 1 lol

You realize we have more 4 and 5 stars left on the team from the 23 and 24 class than Texas and any team in the country period?

I just realized you could possibly be Chase. Never put it together before

Yes anybody who thinks critically and independently of the Notre Dame football program and doesn't just blindly buy their bs "could be chase"

 

[Golson5]

Yes anybody who thinks critically and independently of the Notre Dame football program and doesn't just blindly buy their bs "could be chase"

Critically and independently, awesome. Consistently non stop negative and switching points and facts to try to always put ND in a negative light is when it comes obvious.

Texas tier 1 after they lose to GA twice. But Ga isn't tier 1 after we beat them, yet TX is lol.

When we get a low 4 star commit or even a 3 you are all over it. When we get a top 100 commit, crickets

Use F+ incessantly like it's the Bible, but when it shows good for ND you move the goalposts

Use 247 comp like it's all that matters when it fits. Ga was number 2 last year on that, but ND beats them and they were down last year. So does that make the comp not really reliable or relevant?

I could go on and on and on.

 

[Get Nasty]

You're delusional

You have no facts to base it off. NDs 3 year record with MF is better than Texas. Texas has done less yet are tier 1 lol

You realize we have more 4 and 5 stars left on the team from the 23 and 24 class than Texas and any team in the country period?

I just realized you could possibly be Chase. Never put it together before

I said texas might be tier 1, they easily have the talent of tier 1, that's had production, and a really good staff. So yes, i think they are the closest to breaking in to tier 1 or just got in.

We have one 5 star on our roster. Most 4 stars returning yes. Another way to state it, we have the least amount of 5 stars in the top 15, but the most 4 stars. 4 stars get you close, 5 stars are needed to win it all.

 

[Golson5]

I said texas might be tier 1, they easily have the talent of tier 1, that's had production, and a really good staff. So yes, i think they are the closest to breaking in to tier 1 or just got in.

We have one 5 star on our roster. Most 4 stars returning yes. Another way to state it, we have the least amount of 5 stars in the top 15, but the most 4 stars. 4 stars get you close, 5 stars are needed to win it all.

How has that worked out for them the last 5 years? Or 3 years if you want to compare against MF?

How did it manifest against Ga who beat them twice?

When you say we have 1 5 star on the roster that makes me laugh. So CJ Baxter is their RB. He's a 5 star you are using to help your argument. Do you want him or 4 star Jer Love this year? Now I'll do the same with corner, you want L Moore or their top guy?

 

[Get Nasty]

How has that worked out for them the last 5 years? Or 3 years if you want to compare against MF?

How did it manifest against Ga who beat them twice?

When you say we have 1 5 star on the roster that makes me laugh. So CJ Baxter is their RB. He's a 5 star you are using to help your argument. Do you want him or 4 star Jer Love this year? Now I'll do the same with corner, you want L Moore or their top guy?

Come on man, you know the hit rate for success with 5 stars is exponentially higher than 4, which is significantly higher than 3.

Of course there's going to be non rated kids better than 5 stars at times, but if you want the ultimate team success, a championship, you need 5 star players.

Sark just had his 2nd season of high success. I expect Freeman to have his second this year. The difference will still be Texas has increased their talent more so than ND has.

 

[Golson5]

Come on man, you know the hit rate for success with 5 stars is exponentially higher than 4, which is significantly higher than 3.

Of course there's going to be non rated kids better than 5 stars at times, but if you want the ultimate team success, a championship, you need 5 star players.

Sark just had his 2nd season of high success. I expect Freeman to have his second this year. The difference will still be Texas has increased their talent more so than ND has.

Good. We have 5 star players like jer love and l moore. So we got that...

I'll take our head coach, staff, roster and culture over the next 5 years ahead of Texas. We'll see

 

[chaseball]

Good. We have 5 star players like jer love and l moore. So we got that...

I'll take our head coach, staff, roster and culture over the next 5 years ahead of Texas. We'll see

The difference between Notre Dame and, say, Texas right now is this: When Texas lands its underrated prospects-because all coaches at this level are skilled at identifying underrated talent-they add those players, like Leonard Moore and J. Love, to a roster already stacked with high four-star and five-star recruits. So they get those kind of overachievers IN ADDITION TO their top 5 talent haul. In contrast, Notre Dame relies almost entirely on hidden gems for its biggest stars/star power on the 85 man roster. Notre Dame needs to recruit the 5 star & high 4 star guys in enough quantities to match their competitors while still hitting on the underrated gems like Leonard Moore & Benjamin Morrison and Knapp etc. etc. because that's what the best teams in the country are doing now.

 

[Golson5]

The difference between Notre Dame and, say, Texas right now is this: When Texas lands its underrated prospects-because all coaches at this level are skilled at identifying underrated talent-they add those players, like Leonard Moore and J. Love, to a roster already stacked with high four-star and five-star recruits. So they get those kind of overachievers IN ADDITION TO their top 5 talent haul. In contrast, Notre Dame relies almost entirely on hidden gems for its biggest stars/star power on the 85 man roster. Notre Dame needs to recruit the 5 star & high 4 star guys in enough quantities to match their competitors while still hitting on the underrated gems like Leonard Moore & Benjamin Morrison and Knapp etc. etc. because that's what the best teams in the country are doing now.

We have more combined 4 and 5 star players from the 23 and 24 class than Texas so that argument doesn't hold weight

Try again

 

[chaseball]

We have more combined 4 and 5 star players from the 23 and 24 class than Texas so that argument doesn't hold weight

Try again

I used present-day Texas (the team with the No. 1 talent haul in the 2025 class) as an example, but this point applies to any of the top talent-laden teams at the top of the 247Sports 85-man roster talent rankings.

By the way, Texas just signed five five-star recruits, while Notre Dame signed only one

If Texas hits on a couple of their lower-rated players in this class, they still have all the five-star and high four-star prospects on their roster, in addition to those hidden gems or lower-rated players who are performing above expectations. Notre Dame, on the other hand, has to rely almost entirely on those hidden gems for star power; they simply don’t have the same quantity of can’t-miss, high-upside top-100 prospects to pair with talents like J. Love and Leonard Moore

 

[Golson5]

I was using present Texas (the team that had the #1 talent haul in the 2025 class) as an example but it can be any of those top talent laden teams at the top of the 247 85 man roster talent rankings.

BTW Texas just signed five 5-star recruits to Notre Dame's 1

Say Texas hit on a couple of their lower rated guys in their class, they now still have all the 5-star and high 4-star prospects on their roster in addition to the hidden gems/lower rated guys that are playing way above expectations. ND only has those hidden gems to rely on for star power they dont have a lot of can't miss/big upside top 100 prospects -- in the quantities that their competitors do -- to add J Love & Leonard Moore too.

Notre Dame has more 4 and 5 star players from the 23 and 24 class than any team in the country

Try again

 

[chaseball]

Notre Dame has more 4 and 5 star players from the 23 and 24 class than any team in the country

Try again

Notre Dame has a bunch of low to mid 4 star players their competitors are loaded with high 4 star and 5 star players in comparison. That's why their competitors have top 5 recruiting class and 85 man roster rankings (while Notre Dame is largely around 10th-12th in those same rankings) in the 247 databases.

 

[chaseball]

Hahahaha! How could they be considered “one of the most talented teams in the country” when they went to a national championship beating the SEC champ and BIG10 runner up on the way. In the most fair/competitive playoff format ever where teams had to earn their way rather than media deciding who were the best 4 teams.

They had 9th ranked talent that was coached up to 4th place finish in F+ (their F+ rating was still a mile away from the #1 team in F+ (OSU) and a mile away from what the #1 team has produced in F+ over the last 5 years on average)

 

[Golson5]

Notre Dame has a bunch of low to mid 4 star players their competitors are loaded with high 4 star and 5 star players in comparison. That's why their competitors have top 5 recruiting class and 85 man roster rankings (while Notre Dame is largely around 10th-12th in those same rankings) in the 247 databases.

Texas ranks 4th in per player talent. ND ranked 5th.

That was 2024.

ND went 4 and 1 against the top 15 in team talent including beating number 2 Georgia. Georgia beat TX twice

 

[Get Nasty]

Texas ranks 4th in per player talent. ND ranked 5th.

That was 2024.

ND went 4 and 1 against the top 15 in team talent including beating number 2 Georgia. Georgia beat TX twice

2024 College Football Team Talent Composite

In order to create the most comprehensive Team Recruiting Ranking without any notion of bias, 247Sports Team Recruiting Ranking is solely based on the 247Sports Composite Rating.

247sports.com

ND was 9

 

[Golson5]

2024 College Football Team Talent Composite

In order to create the most comprehensive Team Recruiting Ranking without any notion of bias, 247Sports Team Recruiting Ranking is solely based on the 247Sports Composite Rating.

247sports.com

ND was 9

ND was 5th in per player average. Texas was 4th in per player average

 

[chaseball]

ND was 5th in per player average. Texas was 4th in per player average

I already explained the limitations of viewing a class with per player average on multiple occasions but you stubbornly continue to ignore the argument and double down. Per player average is one factor but the overall recruiting ranking using the total recruiting score (which is a weighted formula that factors in the per player average already) is the holistic view to compare teams based on the amount of talent they extracted from the recruiting cycle/how teams compare in the composite team talent rankings.

 

[Golson5]

I already explained the limitations of viewing a class with per player average on multiple occasions but you stubbornly continue to ignore the argument and double down. Per player average is one factor but the overall recruiting ranking using the total recruiting score (which is a weighted formula that factors in the per player average already) is the holistic view to compare teams based on the amount of talent they extracted from the recruiting cycle.

Per player avg is a much better way to judge talent.

The points system is junk because the amount of points they give to 5 stars is just weighted too much. And all down the line. It's even more subjective then rankings how they choose to determine points

Also, I don't care if you have a couple extra players on the bottom of your roster that gives you extra points.

I want to know how each player ranks. Which is subjective but at least a little less subjective than a total points based on their own system.

You could look at both. I do. But I'd rather the per player avg be higher than the total points.

F+ almost got this one right. 4th and 5th

 

[chaseball]

"Maybe someone at the operations office at ND wants to win enough to care and change it for the better at some point? Who knows .. it's only a football organization ranked in the top 5 of all of college football with a enterprise value of $2B. Maybe someone there actually wants to dip into all that cash and actually invest in a national title worthy product/roster for a change and stop getting bullied out of the most relevant talent in the game every recruiting cycle?"

And then again, MAYBE NOT.

In fact, it's HIGHLY UNLIKELY that ND will alter its recruitment strategy based on MESSAGE BOARD CHATTER.

Heres' what you're MISSING if not OUTRIGHT DENYING.

What does the average recruit from average to below average circumstances -- who's not particularly academically gifted or even inclined; not a Catholic; not an ND fan or connected to anyone who is; and who'd rather have the smoothest and most enjoyable path to the NFL -- get from going to ND as opposed to a school that LIP-SERVICES academics?

NOTHING.

More topflight players -- THAN NOT -- don't need or want ND and, in return, they DON'T FIT ND'S PROFILE. So, you MAKE DO with the what you have -- GIVEN THE CIRCUMSTANCES.

In the end, it's about OVERALL FIT. For many of the best football athletes, ND IS BY FAR NOT THE BEST FIT as is true as well for Duke, Stanford, the academies and quite a few other places. ND is selling a different product -- which many DON'T WISH TO BUY.

The guys you want are not CARTIER customers. They "GO TO JARED'S." They don't select on the basis of EDUCATIONAL QUALITY.

PERIOD.

ND deserves CREDIT for what it has achieved given how it chooses to operate. NOT SCORN. Or even well-intentioned FRUSTRATION. And there are NO FOOLS behind ND's approach but rather LEVEL-HEADED PEOPLE executing a PRECISE STRATEGY.

There's more to EDUCATION than football.

I appreciate your thoughts and on more than one occasion you've made points that really helped open my mind to a new perspective that wasn't on my radar so I always value your input. I don't have any strong disagreements with anything you said but I do have strong disagreements with the idea that ND is limited by their academic mission. It's also one of those kinds of debates where there's no hard evidence with either side of this argument so good arguments are mostly intuition based instead of evidence based. Also I've had a similar debate with other posters dating back to the mid teens probably. And from my perspective ND may have some unique challenges because of the role academics plays within the football program, but not to the extent that many of the people that sympathize with your viewpoint on the topic thinks that it does, and that it provide a convenient excuse for the leadership at the institution to pawn off the issues on academics and not take accountability for them and find other creative ways to work around it.

Also, this is one of those issues where you don't have the option to roll over and die/give up on. 100% OF YOUR VIABILITY AT THE HIGHEST LEVELS OF COLLEGE FOOTBALL RELIES ON YOUR ABILITY TO EXTRACT MORE TALENT FROM THE TALENT POOL THAN YOUR COMPETITORS. So if you are going to maintain high level academics/academic mission with the understanding its going to limit the player pool, then what are you doing creatively/financially/strategically to work around this and field a national championship product regardless? We're in the NIL era now. We are in the Transfer era now. There's more levers now to pull on to entice prospects than ever before. If your institution has a recruiting weakness you can leverage other resources and make a compelling offer regardless.

If you want additional dialogue on this topic click through my post history -- the academic mission/standard debates are prominent almost anytime a disagreement about NDs talent/recruiting has been discussed.

Critically and independently, awesome.

Texas tier 1 after they lose to GA twice. But Ga isn't tier 1 after we beat them, yet TX is lol.

Use F+ incessantly like it's the Bible, but when it shows good for ND you move the goalposts

Use 247 comp like it's all that matters when it fits. Ga was number 2 last year on that, but ND beats them and they were down last year. So does that make the comp not really reliable or relevant?

I could go on and on and on.

"Critically and independently awesome" if you thought it was awesome, you wouldn't be calling so many people out of name because they have well-warranted criticism of a football program that hasn't accomplished anything at the highest level in the last 35 years.

I use F+ where it matters, 247 where it matters, fpi and others where they matter, and many other traditional stats/polls where they matter as well. These are just tools/resources in a bag of many that have their strengths and weaknesses in different contexts.

At the end of the day I have one question in mind: how close is ND to realistically competing for a national title trophy? They've been essentially raising a white flag in the national title picture before the season even gets started during the entirety of the post-Weis era with very few exceptions due to the talent disparity between themselves and the teams at the top of the rankings.

 

[chaseball]

Oh yea, also as it relates to Georgia, I didnt think I would need to post the evidence because Georgia having a down year in 2024 seemed pretty intuitively obvious.

Georgia Bulldogs final F+ ranking & rating by season (including what tier their production on the season fell in):
2024: 7th, 1.70 (tier 3) - the year ND beat them.
2023: 3rd, 2.45 (tier 1)
2022: 1st, 2.68 (tier 1)
2021: 1st, 2.79 (tier 1)

In the last 4 years, which one of these seasons does not look like the others?

Georgia had tier 1 talent, but the coaches didn't have it producing to a tier 1 level. And their 2024 F+ rating came with Beck starting 99% of their season. So ND didn't even play vs the version of Georgia that their final F+ rating would indicate.

Georgia still has a head coach with a proven track record and still one of the most talent laden rosters in the country so it would be silly to dismiss them going forward but you can still acknowledge that they weren't playing to their elite standard in 2024 and that it was an off year.

 

[iLOVEtohurdle41]

Oh yea, also as it relates to Georgia, I didnt think I would need to post the evidence because Georgia having a down year in 2024 seemed pretty intuitively obvious.

Georgia Bulldogs final F+ ranking & rating by season (including what tier their production on the season fell in):
2024: 7th, 1.70 (tier 3) - the year ND beat them.
2023: 3rd, 2.45 (tier 1)
2022: 1st, 2.68 "" (tier 1)
2021: 1st, 2.79 "" (tier 1)

In the last 4 years, which one of these seasons does not look like the others?

Georgia had tier 1 talent, but the coaches didn't have it producing to a tier 1 level. And their 2024 F+ rating came with Beck starting 99% of their season. So ND didn't even play vs the version of Georgia that their final F+ rating would indicate. It was a down season for Georgia in 2024 by all accounts and ND played a gimped version of Georgia (the QB position is by far the most important and has the biggest impact on a team when absent in a game)

They have a head coach with a proven track record and still one of the most talent laden rosters in the country so it would be silly to dismiss them going forward but you can still acknowledge that they weren't playing to their elite standard in 2024 and that it was an off year.

Im sure there isn't a single logical soul that's dismissing the bulldogs going forward. With Kirby there, they will always be a force.


Yes, losing Stetson Bennett has had a large impact for them.


That being said, we were able to physically match up and hold our own against them. Which is a huge deal because of how well they recruit at all positions.


They literally beat texas in the SEC championship before they faced us. It's a big deal whether they were down a bit or not. That win was bigger than penn state in my opinion.

 

[Golson5]

I appreciate your thoughts and on more than one occasion you've made points that really helped open my mind to a new perspective that wasn't on my radar so I always value your input. I don't have any strong disagreements with anything you said but I do have strong disagreements with the idea that ND is limited by their academic mission. It's also one of those kinds of debates where there's no hard evidence with either side of this argument so good arguments are mostly intuition based instead of evidence based. Also I've had a similar debate with other posters dating back to the mid teens probably. And from my perspective ND may have some unique challenges because of the role academics plays within the football program, but not to the extent that many of the people that sympathize with your viewpoint on the topic thinks that it does, and that it provide a convenient excuse for the leadership at the institution to pawn off the issues on academics and not take accountability for them and find other creative ways to work around it.

Also, this is one of those issues where you don't have the option to roll over and die/give up on. 100% OF YOUR VIABILITY AT THE HIGHEST LEVELS OF COLLEGE FOOTBALL RELIES ON YOUR ABILITY TO EXTRACT MORE TALENT FROM THE TALENT POOL THAN YOUR COMPETITORS. So if you are going to maintain high level academics/academic mission with the understanding its going to limit the player pool, then what are you doing creatively/financially/strategically to work around this and field a national championship product regardless? We're in the NIL era now. We are in the Transfer era now. There's more levers now to pull on to entice prospects than ever before. If your institution has a recruiting weakness you can leverage other resources and make a compelling offer regardless.

If you want additional dialogue on this topic click through my post history -- the academic mission/standard debates are prominent almost anytime a disagreement about NDs talent/recruiting has been discussed.

"Critically and independently awesome" if you thought it was awesome, you wouldn't be calling so many people out of name because they have well-warranted criticism of a football program that hasn't accomplished anything at the highest level in the last 35 years.

I use F+ where it matters, 247 where it matters, fpi and others where they matter, and many other traditional stats/polls where they matter as well. These are just tools/resources in a bag of many that have their strengths and weaknesses in different contexts.

At the end of the day I have one question in mind: how close is ND to realistically competing for a national title trophy? They've been essentially raising a white flag in the national title picture before the season even gets started during the entirety of the post-Weis era with very few exceptions due to the talent disparity between themselves and the teams at the top of the rankings.

I call out your non stop negativity and is of your analytics when it only fits your narrative

 

[sjb75]

Oh yea, also as it relates to Georgia, I didnt think I would need to post the evidence because Georgia having a down year in 2024 seemed pretty intuitively obvious.

Georgia Bulldogs final F+ ranking & rating by season (including what tier their production on the season fell in):
2024: 7th, 1.70 (tier 3) - the year ND beat them.
2023: 3rd, 2.45 (tier 1)
2022: 1st, 2.68 (tier 1)
2021: 1st, 2.79 (tier 1)

In the last 4 years, which one of these seasons does not look like the others?

Georgia had tier 1 talent, but the coaches didn't have it producing to a tier 1 level. And their 2024 F+ rating came with Beck starting 99% of their season. So ND didn't even play vs the version of Georgia that their final F+ rating would indicate.

Georgia still has a head coach with a proven track record and still one of the most talent laden rosters in the country so it would be silly to dismiss them going forward but you can still acknowledge that they weren't playing to their elite standard in 2024 and that it was an off year.

Im sure there isn't a single logical soul that's dismissing the bulldogs going forward. With Kirby there, they will always be a force.


Yes, losing Stetson Bennett has had a large impact for them.


That being said, we were able to physically match up and hold our own against them. Which is a huge deal because of how well they recruit at all positions.


They literally beat texas in the SEC championship before they faced us. It's a big deal whether they were down a bit or not. That win was bigger than penn state in my opinion.

Same person.

 

[chaseball]

Same person.

No his grammar is clearly better than mine

 

[NIN Irish]

No his grammar is clearly better than mine

How nice of you to notice, and pay a compliment to yourself. 🤦

 

[ZibbyQuinn]

I said texas might be tier 1, they easily have the talent of tier 1, that's had production, and a really good staff. So yes, i think they are the closest to breaking in to tier 1 or just got in.

We have one 5 star on our roster. Most 4 stars returning yes. Another way to state it, we have the least amount of 5 stars in the top 15, but the most 4 stars. 4 stars get you close, 5 stars are needed to win it all.

So Will Black is the 5 star? Very impactful data when he’s used as evidence for talent and J Love is dismissed