The "realists" are out and the trolls are hungry!

[Catholicfan95]

We all know how this song and dance goes. Back and forth arguments with these posters that claim to be atop the mountain of perspective and that we, the loyal optimistic Notre Dame fans are "delusional".
Now, there is a difference between a realists and a troll and it all comes down to what the message of the post is. A realist message (one who is actually a fan of ND) will be a challenge, an example would be us winning big games. This is a valid argument and we all have been discussing it in length this year, so I won't go into detail. However, a realist (one who is a true ND fan) will remain optimistic while challenging the program and also acknowledge accomplishments such as a 10 win season (if you don't think 10 wins is an accomplishment then we are really far apart). The troll on the other hand will discredit accomplishments, bring up ND tradition as a way to dismantle the current state of ND, stay negative, claim themselves as the most loyal of fans and when challenged on that fact they will have no response.

Here are the facts. We won 10 games 3 years in a row for the first time since 91-93. We have had more 10 win seasons under BK than any other coach since Lou. Regardless of those who try to claim NDs schedule and wins are against bad competition, we are 42-17 in a 5 year span, and had a 4-8 season in that same time frame. Is it NDs fault that SC and Stanford are down? Or that nearly every ACC team we have played since signing this deal has been middle of the road or worse? Didn't ND schedule Home and Homes with UGA, UM and OSU in the next 3/4 years? That to me shows that ND is at least trying to schedule top tier teams. Everyone cracks ND for having a bad schedule but will gloss over OSU, Bama and Clemson's. Notre Dame has a cyclical schedule now, some years will be very good and other years will be middle of the road. News flash, it happens and the key is you have to take advantage of those middle of the road years. (example Michigan State making the playoff)

Here's the solution to all of this, winning. No one here is happy losing games, and none of our kids or coaches are. I will say that I saw a high majority of posters here say if we can manage to win 10 they'd be thrilled, then have posted several times complaining since. Either you are with us all the way or your just not one of us, period. I'm thrilled with 10 wins, but I'm also pissed about UM and disappointed with UGA, can those three feelings not co-exist? I'm thrilled to death with BKs 10 years here and I think he's one of the top 5/8 coaches in America, but I also think he fails at times, can those things not co-exist? Does that mean that I have lowered my standards? I think it means that we were one coach away from Nebraska and now we are a top 10-15 program on a yearly basis and that has not been the case in 30 years, so how is that possibly status quo?

Perspective is everything and it is clear that the perspective with most of you "realists" is just down right negative, and guess what no one cares! How can you be negative about what is going on right now?

Cheers, Go Irish!

 

[theskibro]

We all know how this song and dance goes. Back and forth arguments with these posters that claim to be atop the mountain of perspective and that we, the loyal optimistic Notre Dame fans are "delusional".
Now, there is a difference between a realists and a troll and it all come down to what the message of the post is. A realist message (one who is actually a fan of ND) will be a challenge, an example winning big games. This is a valid argument and we all have been discussing it in length this year, so I wouldn't go into detail. However, a realist (one who is a true ND fan) will remain optimistic while challenging the program and also acknowledge accomplishments such as a 10 win season (if you don't think 10 wins is an accomplishment then we are really far apart). The troll on the other hand will discredit accomplishments, bring up ND tradition as a way to dismantle the current state of ND, stay negative, claim themselves as the most loyal of fans and when challenged on that fact they will have no response.

Here are the facts. We won 10 games 3 years in a row for the first time since 91-93. We have had more 10 win seasons under BK than any other coach since Lou. Regardless of those who try to claim NDs schedule and wins, we are 42-17 in a 5 year span, and had a 4-8 season in that span. Is it NDs fault that SC is down, or that nearly every ACC team we have played since signing this deal has been middle of the road or worse? Didn't ND schedule Home and Homes with UGA, UM and OSU in the next 3/4 years? That to me shows that ND is at least trying to schedule top tier teams. Everyone cracks ND for a bad schedule but will gloss over OSU, Bama and Clemson's.

Here's the solution to all of this, winning. No one here is happy losing games, and none of our kids or coaches are. I will say that I saw a high majority of posters here say if we can manage to win 10 they'd be thrilled, then have posted several times complaining since. Either you are with us all the way or your just not one of us, period. I'm thrilled with 10 wins,but I'm also pissed about UM and disappointed with UGA, can those three feelings not co-exist? I'm thrilled to death with BKs 10 years here and I think he's one of the top 5/8 coaches in America, but I also think he fails at times, can those things not co-exist? Does that mean that I have lowered my standards? I think it means that we were one coach away from Nebraska and now we are a top 10-15 program on a yearly basis and that has not been the case in 30 years, so how is that possibly status quo?

Perspective is everything and it is clear that the perspective with most of you "realists" is just down right negative, and guess what no one cares! How can you be negative about what is going on right now?

Cheers, Go Irish!

I line up with you. Maybe more demanding. But Lind up


I know, scary.

 

[Catholicfan95]

I line up with you. Maybe more demanding. But Lind up


I know, scary.

It is okay to be demanding, trust me I get that. At the same time there is a difference in being demanding and just being completely delusional about the state of the program currently.

 

[zonairish]

Usually during bowl season we get opponent trolls. Not seeing it. Looking forward to it

 

[Catholicfan95]

Usually during bowl season we get opponent trolls. Not seeing it. Looking forward to it

It has been full force since Stanford. As a whole this entire year has been a majority of posters saying the same thing "Not good enough" " Cant win in big games" "Its been 30 years" "Kelly has had 10 years and nothing to show". It is very redundant and it can be found on almost every single thread. For most of us on here it has just gotten old that the same people post the same thing every single time, by all means post what you want I get it, but how many times can you say the same thing? I dunno maybe it is just me.

 

[Catholicfan95]

@nemeth#5 Not sure if you have been following the Gerrit Cole sweepstakes but I just saw that the Yankees have offered him $245 million over 7 years. Now, LA and NYY are the only ones that have said they are willing to pay for the right hander so it is an all out bidding war. Coles agent has said that there is a deal out there for Cole that would range from $275-315 million over a 8-10 year span. I doubt it will get to that point but, I would not be shocked if one of these teams cave into the pressure and pays him the 300M.

 

[nemeth#5]

@nemeth#5 Not sure if you have been following the Gerrit Cole sweepstakes but I just saw that the Yankees have offered him $245 million over 7 years. Now, LA and NYY are the only ones that have said they are willing to pay for the right hander so it is an all out bidding war. Coles agent has said that there is a deal out there for Cole that would range from $275-315 million over a 8-10 year span. I doubt it will get to that point but, I would not be shocked if one of these teams cave into the pressure and pays him the 300M.

Ya dude, it is crazy..... It wasn't long ago Cole was falling short of expectations in Pittsburgh.... Houston and their coaching (and all their crazy spin/roataion metrics) turned his career around and he is about to get paid. It also wasn't long ago the MLB off season was a buyers market and teams had a clamp on their wallets... now they are looking to pay up. . . should be some intense winter meetings coming up.

 

[echowaker]

if Oklahoma loses to LSU that will 3 straight losses in the playoff by Lincoln Riley. can you imagine the lynch mob here if Kelly did the same thing ? doubt any Okie fans will be calling for Rileys head if it happens.

 

[Catholicfan95]

if Oklahoma loses to LSU that will 3 straight losses in the playoff by Lincoln Riley. can you imagine the lynch mob here if Kelly did the same thing ? doubt any Okie fans will be calling for Rileys head if it happens.

"Riley cant win big games" thats what it would be....shameful lol.

 

[Catholicfan95]

Ya dude, it is crazy..... It wasn't long ago Cole was falling short of expectations in Pittsburgh.... Houston and their coaching (and all their crazy spin/roataion metrics) turned his career around and he is about to get paid. It also wasn't long ago the MLB off season was a buyers market and teams had a clamp on their wallets... now they are looking to pay up. . . should be some intense winter meetings coming up.

I am a huge Pittsburgh fan, dad is from just south of there and living in WV now its who I follow. Him and our former pitching coach Ray Searage were not getting along. Ray was responsible for revamping AJ Burnett's career and got a lot of attention for that. However, pitchers like Charlie Morton and Gerrit Cole leave the Pirates and are throwing an average 3-5 mph faster than they were in Pittsburgh. Cole wanted out after we could not win in the 3 year span where we were winning 90 plus games a year when the NL Central was very good! I digress though.

In the age of analytics taking over baseball I wonder how many more of these huge contracts we are going to see. Could this be one of the last really big deals for awhile? The Bryce Harper and Manny Machodo deals have fallen so poorly in year one, you gotta think clubs will not risk the doe. Both guys failed to even make the all star rosters.

 

[MikeSinger]

Usually during bowl season we get opponent trolls. Not seeing it. Looking forward to it

Please report posts of users coming on here to troll and I will deal with it

 

[Catholicfan95]

Please report posts of users coming on here to troll and I will deal with it

Your discretion of those who are trolling here is far superior than mine. I am not here to report anyone at all, I feel out of place doing so. The last thing I want to do is discourage people from coming onto the board and having a different opinion than the majority.

 

[nemeth#5]

I am a huge Pittsburgh fan, dad is from just south of there and living in WV now its who I follow. Him and our former pitching coach Ray Searage were not getting along. Ray was responsible for revamping AJ Burnett's career and got a lot of attention for that. However, pitchers like Charlie Morton and Gerrit Cole leave the Pirates and are throwing an average 3-5 mph faster than they were in Pittsburgh. Cole wanted out after we could not win in the 3 year span where we were winning 90 plus games a year when the NL Central was very good! I digress though.

In the age of analytics taking over baseball I wonder how many more of these huge contracts we are going to see. Could this be one of the last really big deals for awhile? The Bryce Harper and Manny Machodo deals have fallen so poorly in year one, you gotta think clubs will not risk the doe. Both guys failed to even make the all star rosters.

I forgot about AJ Burnett catching a nice second wind in Pittsburgh. I lived in St. Louis for a while back when the central was good top to bottom....

The entire 'Big Contract' thing not paying off always confuses me because it is easy to see if a contract pays out or not based on stats but one thing that doesnt get taken into account are things like the extra ticket sales, jerseys, TV deals, etc that happen when your team signs big names. I remember right after the Angels signed Pujols (which based on stats was a horrible deal), the Angels inked like a Billion dollar TV deal....
I have no idea what will happen in the future, but if I had to guess I would say the big markets will continue to sing the big name players and the mid/small markets will have to continue being crafty and having good farm systems. Love watching what the Rays do year in and out to stay very competitive. I think the biggest threat to baseball now is tanking... the Astros have shown that it can pay off and now so many teams are doing it.... seems like there are a few very good teams and a lot of very bad teams.... making the parity very low.

 

[88ND]

It's in the way that you use it,
It comes and it goes....

Eric Clapton eat your heart out.

That sums up Brian Kelly over the years.

Listen my dear friend of the sheen dome....

Nobody is more a realist about things than I. I tell it like it is good or bad. It's black and white. I don't oh and ah over normalcy and I do have some expectations.
Perhaps my expectations are more realistic than others and you get them confused but I will clarify once more.
I've never used number of wins as a benchmark for our success. I've never said title or bust. Never put any pipe dream expectation on the team as a success or failure threshold.
More on this in a moment...

It's Brian Kelly's 10th year and we've seen a rollercoaster ride along the way. Up and down with an upside down loop in there every so often. I'm NOT talking about the wins and losses (for those that love stomping the foot at his last 3 year record) but rather how the team has played over this time.

After the last two coaching failures BK has been extended contacts. He can thank Charlie Weis' bloated contract for not getting fired after the 4-8 season. No way was the university going to keep having egg on face with coach firings, plus paying BK, still paying Charlie Weis and paying a new coach. Not that we can't afford it but we'd have three head coaches on top of the university payroll and only one of them actually employed. That just screams no way in hell on principal.

Having said all the above my issue with the BK situation goes like this....
It's not the number of wins but how we play. The wins will take care of themselves. Titles will take care of themselves. Are we playing at a high level consistently? This is where many fans split ways because it's all in your(any fan) definition of high level.
There are fans that want to celebrate beating teams I feel should be automatic. Maybe those wins are a benchmark to some but to each their own.
I, on the other hand, would like to win some games that have eluded Brian Kelly in his entire tenure. Is that too much to ask? Beating a team in a huge drama filled road game with much at stake. How about just being competitive in a big bowl game with a chance to win. Just a chance mind you. Eventually the wins will happen but we're light years from that because we're not even competitive in that major bowl/playoff. Is it too much to ask to beat a top 5 team? Just one? Is it ok to want to see a coach do just enough to beat a top team instead of doing just enough to lose.?.
Is it ok to wish we're past the occasional blood bath loss against a decent but only above average team. The PRO BK crowd said that stuff was done after the orange bowl Miami game debacle right up until it happened again in Ann Arbor this year.

What I see different with BK versus 4 years ago and prior is he's getting a little bit better material and has a little bit better assistant coaches. But it truly is a small increase. It's enabled us to beat teams we should beat more consistently but that's all.

What hasn't changed over a decade is the little things. Mental mistakes. Weak game plan. Emotionally flat players. Lack of preparation with simple things like the weather.
This would be fine if ND was a destination to learn on the job but word around the campfire is ND is supposed to be one of the upper echelon football destinations. Just what I heard

BK's in no man's land. Good coaches get their edge many different ways. Urban did it by out thinking you on the fly, in game. Saban does it by repetition at practice. (You NEVER see Bama beat themselves)
Dabo does it rah rah and has an amazing D Coordinator.
Lincoln Riley is doing it with scheme.
Newcomer Matt Rhule is trying to do it Joe Paterno fashion and he's way ahead of the curve considering where Baylor was after the Art whorehouse debacle.

BK???? He used to get all wound up but that is gone now. He used to get an advantage at Cinci going hurry up and catching the team off guard. Gone.
What's his signature at present?

Lou Holtz was the greatest big game coach I've ever seen. He had a way to get certain players to do something a little different in certain moments and they worked amazingly well. He could motivate. Etc


There are many ways to get the job done but IMO he's in no mans land. Good at many things but great at none.

At ND mind you.

 

[Catholicfan95]

I forgot about AJ Burnett catching a nice second wind in Pittsburgh. I lived in St. Louis for a while back when the central was good top to bottom....

The entire 'Big Contract' thing not paying off always confuses me because it is easy to see if a contract pays out or not based on stats but one thing that doesnt get taken into account are things like the extra ticket sales, jerseys, TV deals, etc that happen when your team signs big names. I remember right after the Angels signed Pujols (which based on stats was a horrible deal), the Angels inked like a Billion dollar TV deal....
I have no idea what will happen in the future, but if I had to guess I would say the big markets will continue to sing the big name players and the mid/small markets will have to continue being crafty and having good farm systems. Love watching what the Rays do year in and out to stay very competitive. I think the biggest threat to baseball now is tanking... the Astros have shown that it can pay off and now so many teams are doing it.... seems like there are a few very good teams and a lot of very bad teams.... making the parity very low.

Well do not forget that at the same time the Angels signed Albert they also got Josh Hamilton! So they were "poised" for a big year. Both deal were massive and mad no sense at all. They were classic baseball deals, paying players for past performance rather than what they are worth moving forward. The deals with Manny and Bryce are not bad in that aspect both guys are young, however both guys are B to B+ players making A+ money. The only player worth that much is Trout right now, in all honesty he might be the only guy in the past 10 years worth this kinda money. That being said, this is baseball and one great player cannot win you a title, you know this as well as I do.

I find myself rooting for teams like Tampa and Oakland more than ever now. Did you know the cubs had the highest payroll this year by a mile and did not even sniff the playoffs? The Rays paid (cannot remember the number exactly) less than $550,000 per win. The cubs paid $2.3M per win and won 11 less games than the Rays. Talk about mind blowing number man!

 

[Catholicfan95]

It's in the way that you use it,
It comes and it goes....

Eric Clapton eat your heart out.

That sums up Brian Kelly over the years.

Listen my dear friend of the sheen dome....

Nobody is more a realist about things than I. I tell it like it is good or bad. It's black and white. I don't oh and ah over normalcy and I do have some expectations.
Perhaps my expectations are more realistic than others and you get them confused but I will clarify once more.
I've never used number of wins as a benchmark for our success. I've never said title or bust. Never put any pipe dream expectation on the team as a success or failure threshold.
More on this in a moment...

It's Brian Kelly's 10th year and we've seen a rollercoaster ride along the way. Up and down with an upside down loop in there every so often. I'm NOT talking about the wins and losses (for those that love stomping the foot at his last 3 year record) but rather how the team has played over this time.

After the last two coaching failures BK has been extended contacts. He can thank Charlie Weis' bloated contract for not getting fired after the 4-8 season. No way was the university going to keep having egg on face with coach firings, plus paying BK, still paying Charlie Weis and paying a new coach. Not that we can't afford it but we'd have three head coaches on top of the university payroll and only one of them actually employed. That just screams no way in hell on principal.

Having said all the above my issue with the BK situation goes like this....
It's not the number of wins but how we play. The wins will take care of themselves. Titles will take care of themselves. Are we playing at a high level consistently? This is where many fans split ways because it's all in your(any fan) definition of high level.
There are fans that want to celebrate beating teams I feel should be automatic. Maybe those wins are a benchmark to some but to each their own.
I, on the other hand, would like to win some games that have eluded Brian Kelly in his entire tenure. Is that too much to ask? Beating a team in a huge drama filled road game with much at stake. How about just being competitive in a big bowl game with a chance to win. Just a chance mind you. Eventually the wins will happen but we're light years from that because we're not even competitive in that major bowl/playoff. Is it too much to ask to beat a top 5 team? Just one? Is it ok to want to see a coach do just enough to beat a top team instead of doing just enough to lose.?.
Is it ok to wish we're past the occasional blood bath loss against a decent but only above average team. The PRO BK crowd said that stuff was done after the orange bowl Miami game debacle right up until it happened again in Ann Arbor this year.

What I see different with BK versus 4 years ago and prior is he's getting a little bit better material and has a little bit better assistant coaches. But it truly is a small increase. It's enabled us to beat teams we should beat more consistently but that's all.

What hasn't changed over a decade is the little things. Mental mistakes. Weak game plan. Emotionally flat players. Lack of preparation with simple things like the weather.
This would be fine if ND was a destination to learn on the job but word around the campfire is ND is supposed to be one of the upper echelon football destinations. Just what I heard

BK's in no man's land. Good coaches get their edge many different ways. Urban did it by out thinking you on the fly, in game. Saban does it by repetition at practice. (You NEVER see Bama beat themselves)
Dabo does it rah rah and has an amazing D Coordinator.
Lincoln Riley is doing it with scheme.
Newcomer Matt Rhule is trying to do it Joe Paterno fashion and he's way ahead of the curve considering where Baylor was after the Art whorehouse debacle.

BK???? He used to get all wound up but that is gone now. He used to get an advantage at Cinci going hurry up and catching the team off guard. Gone.
What's his signature at present?

Lou Holtz was the greatest big game coach I've ever seen. He had a way to get certain players to do something a little different in certain moments and they worked amazingly well. He could motivate. Etc


There are many ways to get the job done but IMO he's in no mans land. Good at many things but great at none.

At ND mind you.

All great points 88 and you are right about a lot of these points. I think the basis is, regardless of your displeasure or expectation not every single conversation should turn into the "BK bit".

Anyway, what do you mean about Rhule doing it like Joe? Not sure I got that part, elaborate please. Also, I think that people do not give Dabo enough credit, the guy knows his X's and O's. His personality is very appealing to recruits but that is not his only ability.

 

[88ND]

Ya dude, it is crazy..... It wasn't long ago Cole was falling short of expectations in Pittsburgh.... Houston and their coaching (and all their crazy spin/roataion metrics) turned his career around and he is about to get paid. It also wasn't long ago the MLB off season was a buyers market and teams had a clamp on their wallets... now they are looking to pay up. . . should be some intense winter meetings coming up.

He wasn't falling short of expectations in Pittsburgh. The Pirates offered zero support with a double A offensive attack and single A defense.
Bob Nutting is a clown and has no business owning a professional baseball team. Obviously he bought it and can do whatever he wants with it but I'd love to see someone force his books open to truly show his profit/loss margin.

 

[IrishBlessings]

Well do not forget that at the same time the Angels signed Albert they also got Josh Hamilton! So they were "poised" for a big year. Both deal were massive and mad no sense at all. They were classic baseball deals, paying players for past performance rather than what they are worth moving forward. The deals with Manny and Bryce are not bad in that aspect both guys are young, however both guys are B to B+ players making A+ money. The only player worth that much is Trout right now, in all honesty he might be the only guy in the past 10 years worth this kinda money. That being said, this is baseball and one great player cannot win you a title, you know this as well as I do.

I find myself rooting for teams like Tampa and Oakland more than ever now. Did you know the cubs had the highest payroll this year by a mile and did not even sniff the playoffs? The Rays paid (cannot remember the number exactly) less than $550,000 per win. The cubs paid $2.3M per win and won 11 less games than the Rays. Talk about mind blowing number man!

Well stated - solid points and pretty spot on. Original post was not bad though. BK obviously has been better than all other coaches since Holtz -

What’s amazing though is how so
Many ND fans have “settled”’. They feel no coach better than a BK would want or take the ND job.

I was a big BK detractor - The difference now is that I don’t live and die ND football any more - I m just riding out the BK tenure and hope they can hire a new coach even better than BK - who will not only have 10 plus win seasons - but maybe win a big bowl game someday

 

[nemeth#5]

He wasn't falling short of expectations in Pittsburgh. The Pirates offered zero support with a double A offensive attack and single A defense.
Bob Nutting is a clown and has no business owning a professional baseball team. Obviously he bought it and can do whatever he wants with it but I'd love to see someone force his books open to truly show his profit/loss margin.

Compare his stats in Pitt vs Houston.... run support and your opinion of the owner are irrelevant. He became a wayyyy better player with Houston's coaching and their method (worked for Verlander as well) got him paid.

 

[Catholicfan95]

He wasn't falling short of expectations in Pittsburgh. The Pirates offered zero support with a double A offensive attack and single A defense.
Bob Nutting is a clown and has no business owning a professional baseball team. Obviously he bought it and can do whatever he wants with it but I'd love to see someone force his books open to truly show his profit/loss margin.

Nutting is a jackwagon, but the thing that killed the Pirates, speaking as a huge fan, was the 3 year stretch were McCutchen won MVP and we won 90 plus games, we never retained any of those key players. Russel Martin revamped his career and signed a huge deal with toronto that we just could not afford and we were not ready to make a switch behind the plate. We had a solid infield but lacked a very solid 3rd baseman. Pedro Alvarez was not great at the hot corner but could rake (for a 2 year span) again were not ready to replace him. Then Neil Walker wanted paid and we didn't pay him and had no one that could really replace him. (seeing the pattern here). All the while our pitchers could never really live up to expectations. Jeff Locke who had an all star run totally fell of the wagon and Taillion never got healthy enough to join the rotation. Then Charlie Morton leaves and wins a ring with Houston and is throwing harder then before. Ray Searage was proving to be a liability to Cole so he basically threw in the towel. And hes throwing the best of his career.

I am sorry but you are very off base with this conversation.

 

[Catholicfan95]

Well stated - solid points and pretty spot on. Original post was not bad though. BK obviously has been better than all other coaches since Holtz -

What’s amazing though is how so
Many ND fans have “settled”’. They feel no coach better than a BK would want or take the ND job.

I was a big BK detractor - The difference now is that I don’t live and die ND football any more - I m just riding out the BK tenure and hope they can hire a new coach even better than BK - who will not only have 10 plus win seasons - but maybe win a big bowl game someday

It is always better to just be positive about things IMO, life is far to short not to see the upside in things. After all football is fun, people lose sight of that too often.

 

[echowaker]

Well stated - solid points and pretty spot on. Original post was not bad though. BK obviously has been better than all other coaches since Holtz -

What’s amazing though is how so
Many ND fans have “settled”’. They feel no coach better than a BK would want or take the ND job.

I was a big BK detractor - The difference now is that I don’t live and die ND football any more - I m just riding out the BK tenure and hope they can hire a new coach even better than BK - who will not only have 10 plus win seasons - but maybe win a big bowl game someday

other than winning a playoff game winning any other bowl is the same to me. all consolation games. i would feel the same if ND would beat Memphis in the Cotton Bowl or Iowa St in Orlando.

 

[nemeth#5]

Nutting is a jackwagon, but the thing that killed the Pirates, speaking as a huge fan, was the 3 year stretch were McCutchen won MVP and we won 90 plus games, we never retained any of those key players. Russel Martin revamped his career and signed a huge deal with toronto that we just could not afford and we were not ready to make a switch behind the plate. We had a solid infield but lacked a very solid 3rd baseman. Pedro Alvarez was not great at the hot corner but could rake (for a 2 year span) again were not ready to replace him. Then Neil Walker wanted paid and we didn't pay him and had no one that could really replace him. (seeing the pattern here). All the while our pitchers could never really live up to expectations. Jeff Locke who had an all star run totally fell of the wagon and Taillion never got healthy enough to join the rotation. Then Charlie Morton leaves and wins a ring with Houston and is throwing harder then before. Ray Searage was proving to be a liability to Cole so he basically threw in the towel. And hes throwing the best of his career.

I am sorry but you are very off base with this conversation.

Tallion is another guy who I end up drafting almost every year because I just expect him to bust out and win the Cy young some year..... he cant stay healthy long enough to figure it out... but when he is on... his stuff is filthy.

 

[Catholicfan95]

Tallion is another guy who I end up drafting almost every year because I just expect him to bust out and win the Cy young some year..... he cant stay healthy long enough to figure it out... but when he is on... his stuff is filthy.

Not to mention that the Pirates freaking gave away Austin Meadows to Tampa along with Tyler Glasnow for Chris Archer who has been a disappointment to say the least. He is a 3 inning starter at best, lucky to make 5. Is it fair to assume that you are a Cards fan from spending time in St. Louis?

 

[HuddleBurger]

Well stated - solid points and pretty spot on. Original post was not bad though. BK obviously has been better than all other coaches since Holtz -

What’s amazing though is how so
Many ND fans have “settled”’. They feel no coach better than a BK would want or take the ND job.

I was a big BK detractor - The difference now is that I don’t live and die ND football any more - I m just riding out the BK tenure and hope they can hire a new coach even better than BK - who will not only have 10 plus win seasons - but maybe win a big bowl game someday

This is exactly how I feel. There's definitely enough to criticize with BK, but he has made great improvements to the program as well. But I have tempered my ND football fanaticism. I really don't expect the university to actually go all-in and compete with the elite programs of today. But pulling a surprise and actually beating one of those teams would be great. I guess we have Oklahoma in '12.

IMO these are great posts by Catholic and ND88... good insight into the current situation at ND.

 

[nemeth#5]

Not to mention that the Pirates freaking gave away Austin Meadows to Tampa along with Tyler Glasnow for Chris Archer who has been a disappointment to say the least. He is a 3 inning starter at best, lucky to make 5. Is it fair to assume that you are a Cards fan from spending time in St. Louis?

Ya... Archer is another frustrating dude. Gets a lot of K's and loves to yell at someone for watching a HR too long yet he loves to pump his fist for every big K! And I really do like the Cardinals but I basically like most teams if that makes sense. I grew up in Western NE so the options were the Rockies (one of my favorite) or the teams that were on TV all the time.... Cubs, Braves... Yankees. My dad grew up in Eastern PA so he was a big Yankee fans so I rooted for them...... Long story short, I like the Cards, Rockies, and Yankees.... and dont mind all the other teams except I HATE the Red Sox and Cubs.... I play a lot of fantasy baseball as well.

Pirates going to be better this year? I was sad to see Hurlde go, but understand why..... I always liked him... he signed a ball for me when he was with the Rockies and I had no idea who he was.... signed the same ball I got autographed by Todd Helton lol.

 

[d1042]

A realist = a true ND fan

an unrealist = ? the rest of the world? that’s alot of people!

so a true ND fan is a realist = a realist is true ND fan: sounds a-bit unreal to me!

judging others and especially ‘fandom’ is never an exact science.
you need to rethink you hypothesis.

 

[Catholicfan95]

Ya... Archer is another frustrating dude. Gets a lot of K's and loves to yell at someone for watching a HR too long yet he loves to pump his fist for every big K! And I really do like the Cardinals but I basically like most teams if that makes sense. I grew up in Western NE so the options were the Rockies (one of my favorite) or the teams that were on TV all the time.... Cubs, Braves... Yankees. My dad grew up in Eastern PA so he was a big Yankee fans so I rooted for them...... Long story short, I like the Cards, Rockies, and Yankees.... and dont mind all the other teams except I HATE the Red Sox and Cubs.... I play a lot of fantasy baseball as well.

Pirates going to be better this year? I was sad to see Hurlde go, but understand why..... I always liked him... he signed a ball for me when he was with the Rockies and I had no idea who he was.... signed the same ball I got autographed by Todd Helton lol.

Very spread out with the interest I can respect that!

As far as Pittsburgh goes, the short answer is no. However, with some of these young talented players I could see us winning 75-80 games if we can stay healthy. A lot of the problem with us is that we are willing to move on from players which I have no problem with, but we do not seem to have the capability to replace them inside of our organization. I said (sorry to vent again lol) this when David Price went to the Tigers while we were in the playoff push, we should have sold out for him and I think we would have made the series that year. We were up 2-1 on St. Louis and had 2 games at PNC and could not seal the deal, Cole was young and he pitched like it. The point is, the reluctance to sign free agents or ink deals with guys when we cant replace them kills us. I know I keep referring to this but that span from 2013-2016 was good and bad. We revamped a lot of players careers and just refused to cough up any doe to keep them. I am a catcher and I loved Martin, but the deal he signed with Toronto was dumb and I was sad to see him go but I knew better than for us to keep him. Same goes with Eddy Vazques. Basically, we had a rag tag group of vets with 1 to 3 key young players and it worked really really well, but we had and still dont have a vision for the future.

Hurdle should have ditched Ray after Charlie Morton showed what he did in Houston and maybe then he would have gotten a chance at least, but from what I heard Clint was going down with his ship, he is loyal like that. I mean he did a great job with the Rockies in 07, Boston was just much better team.

I alluded to this earlier in our convo and it is something I am sure you and I are close, if not on the same page with. Analytics in baseball has really taken over and now it is a big push for organizations to get guys that align with that thinking, similar to what the Brewers did. I mean for me, yeah you can say analytics works but there are parts of the game that numbers just cannot touch. Stealing, bunting, hitting for average, all these things are gone from the game because the numbers do not justify them. The defensive shift has really thrown a wrench in things as well.

Sorry to derail from the question, but talking baseball gets me a little wound up sometimes lol.

 

[Catholicfan95]

A realist = a true ND fan

an unrealist = ? the rest of the world? that’s alot of people!

so a true ND fan is a realist = a realist is true ND fan: sounds a-bit unreal to me!

judging others and especially ‘fandom’ is never an exact science.
you need to rethink you hypothesis.

I think you need to go back to school and retake reading comprehension because that is no where near, not even in the galaxy of what the message is. But, I know you, you just like to argue.

 

[d1042]

“...However, a realist (one who is a true ND fan)....”

 

[Catholicfan95]

“...However, a realist (one who is a true ND fan)....”

Again, reading comprehension skills extremely low. Do I really need to explain what the message is brick by brick?

What that means is if the poster who claims to be a realist is actually an ND fan then they would do the following. Other wise they are probably a troll.

Sorry that was so hard for you dude.

 

[88ND]

All great points 88 and you are right about a lot of these points. I think the basis is, regardless of your displeasure or expectation not every single conversation should turn into the "BK bit".

Anyway, what do you mean about Rhule doing it like Joe? Not sure I got that part, elaborate please. Also, I think that people do not give Dabo enough credit, the guy knows his X's and O's. His personality is very appealing to recruits but that is not his only ability.

I'm not saying Dabo is a dunsky whatsoever. He's got a player's personality as evidence from the recruits he's getting. His D coordinator is a psycho and I sure wish we could have him....
He knows the in and out of being successful at the highest of stages.

The JoePa reference is this...
Getting all players to collectively play as a team. Don't need star players when the machine is greater than it's parts.
Paterno had a lot of great teams yet only one Heisman winner in Capaletti. He didn't have many finalists either.
Those two facts don't mean everything but considering the success Paterno had you would certainly think he would've had more than 1 winner and many finalists along the way.

His teams never beat themselves and were always outstanding tacklers. The very best tackling team in the land. Always. Fundamentally sound. When you beat Penn State you really had to beat them. They didn't give you the win. His players played extremely hard.

Can you name some of Baylor's players prior to their Big 12 title game? Yet there they were taking OU to the brink and shoulda coulda beat them both times.
He had Tenple playing harder than I can remember. Remember when the Tenple player made a mistake that cost them a big penalty against us...he had that player doing pushups on the sideline during the game.
Some might chuckle at that but the point was WE is greater than YOU and WE need to play TOGETHER and not beat ourselves.

I don't think he's leaving Baylor until he gets a chance at Penn State. I believe that's his dream destination. He's an alumnus of Penn State and I believe really wants to be coaching in happy valley.

 

[nemeth#5]

Very spread out with the interest I can respect that!

As far as Pittsburgh goes, the short answer is no. However, with some of these young talented players I could see us winning 75-80 games if we can stay healthy. A lot of the problem with us is that we are willing to move on from players which I have no problem with, but we do not seem to have the capability to replace them inside of our organization. I said (sorry to vent again lol) this when David Price went to the Tigers while we were in the playoff push, we should have sold out for him and I think we would have made the series that year. We were up 2-1 on St. Louis and had 2 games at PNC and could not seal the deal, Cole was young and he pitched like it. The point is, the reluctance to sign free agents or ink deals with guys when we cant replace them kills us. I know I keep referring to this but that span from 2013-2016 was good and bad. We revamped a lot of players careers and just refused to cough up any doe to keep them. I am a catcher and I loved Martin, but the deal he signed with Toronto was dumb and I was sad to see him go but I knew better than for us to keep him. Same goes with Eddy Vazques. Basically, we had a rag tag group of vets with 1 to 3 key young players and it worked really really well, but we had and still dont have a vision for the future.

Hurdle should have ditched Ray after Charlie Morton showed what he did in Houston and maybe then he would have gotten a chance at least, but from what I heard Clint was going down with his ship, he is loyal like that. I mean he did a great job with the Rockies in 07, Boston was just much better team.

I alluded to this earlier in our convo and it is something I am sure you and I are close, if not on the same page with. Analytics in baseball has really taken over and now it is a big push for organizations to get guys that align with that thinking, similar to what the Brewers did. I mean for me, yeah you can say analytics works but there are parts of the game that numbers just cannot touch. Stealing, bunting, hitting for average, all these things are gone from the game because the numbers do not justify them. The defensive shift has really thrown a wrench in things as well.

Sorry to derail from the question, but talking baseball gets me a little wound up sometimes lol.

Good stuff.... and I am the same way about baseball... I love it and it is by far my favorite sport to watch...... also being in 3 competitive fantasy leagues requires you to pay way too much attention! Wont be long before pitchers and catchers report!

 

[d1042]

Again, reading comprehension skills extremely low. Do I really need to explain what the message is brick by brick?

What that means is if the poster who claims to be a realist is actually an ND fan then they would do the following. Other wise they are probably a troll.

Sorry that was so hard for you dude.

But you type it! Is someone dictating to you? twisting your arm?
You did not state it as a quote or as they were someone else’s words.

And you correct, I saw that sentence and having read it, it struck me immediately that as for the rest of the posts content, I was not interested.

 

[Catholicfan95]

I'm not saying Dabo is a dunsky whatsoever. He's got a player's personality as evidence from the recruits he's getting. His D coordinator is a psycho and I sure wish we could have him....
He knows the in and out of being successful at the highest of stages.

The JoePa reference is this...
Getting all players to collectively play as a team. Don't need star players when the machine is greater than it's parts.
Paterno had a lot of great teams yet only one Heisman winner in Capaletti. He didn't have many finalists either.
Those two facts don't mean everything but considering the success Paterno had you would certainly think he would've had more than 1 winner and many finalists along the way.

His teams never beat themselves and were always outstanding tacklers. The very best tackling team in the land. Always. Fundamentally sound. When you beat Penn State you really had to beat them. They didn't give you the win. His players played extremely hard.

Can you name some of Baylor's players prior to their Big 12 title game? Yet there they were taking OU to the brink and shoulda coulda beat them both times.
He had Tenple playing harder than I can remember. Remember when the Tenple player made a mistake that cost them a big penalty against us...he had that player doing pushups on the sideline during the game.
Some might chuckle at that but the point was WE is greater than YOU and WE need to play TOGETHER and not beat ourselves.

I don't think he's leaving Baylor until he gets a chance at Penn State. I believe that's his dream destination. He's an alumnus of Penn State and I believe really wants to be coaching in happy valley.

Okay, not a bad comparison I can dig it. I am from West Virginia so I am familiar with Baylor and have been high on Matt since his time at Temple, so when he was named the HC at Baylor I knew he would have the ability to do what he has done. In all honesty what he has done in his short time is unprecedented. Baylor was in a dark dark place just 3 years ago, this has been one of the greatest turn around I have ever seen for a program. It is not comparable to PSU because PSU is a blue blood and they were able to recover in large part due to that fact. They are similar due to the facts, but Baylor was tougher to bring back from the ashes. Matt not getting nods at USC, Washington or Ole Miss shocked me. Maybe you are right about his wanting to be at PSU, however I do not see JF leaving anytime soon. Despite his inability to beat OSU or get to the top of the BIG10 he has been a rock for that program and he is a top tier coach. They will make the playoff soon I feel like.

Just to clarify, I was not thinking you were saying Dabo was a boob or anything, I just think a lot of people see him as a rah rah guy more than a coach, I see why but I was just saying he is no slouch.

 

[Catholicfan95]

But you type it! Is someone dictating to you? twisting your arm?
You did not state it as a quote or as they were someone else’s words.

And you correct, I saw that sentence and having read it, it struck me immediately that as for the rest of the posts content, I was not interested.

Low IQ need not apply. Literally making yourself out to be very dim trying to plead your case here. Case closed. Move on.

 

[88ND]

Compare his stats in Pitt vs Houston.... run support and your opinion of the owner are irrelevant. He became a wayyyy better player with Houston's coaching and their method (worked for Verlander as well) got him paid.

Yeah...Verlander was just horrible in Detroit wasn't he.
If you think offensive and defensive support don't mean anything to a pitcher then you just don't understand it very much.

Cole and any other good pitcher get better with age. They get more intelligent.
I'm not saying the Astros coaching didn't help them but the team as a whole were much better than Pittsburgh and where Detroit headed after cleaning house and salary.

It's like this...over the season of say 35 starts...
How many errors over those starts impact the game within the game. The offense can also dictate how aggressively you go after the other hitters. If your offense is non existent and your defense porous then you feel like you must pitch perfectly every single at bat.
With a runner on base and facing the number 3 hitter in inning 6 you are going to be much more careful pitching for a bad team than a great team. Even to a point where you may concede walks to face the next guy. Pitchers don't like that. They want to go after ever hitter.
Pitching defensively all the time sucks as opposed to being able to go after it.

 

[NDIRISH53]

Something positive we can take away from this season and the past 3 is that a 10-2 season is viewed as not a major success and somewhat of a let down. That shows standards are getting higher from the fanbase

 

[Catholicfan95]

Good stuff.... and I am the same way about baseball... I love it and it is by far my favorite sport to watch...... also being in 3 competitive fantasy leagues requires you to pay way too much attention! Wont be long before pitchers and catchers report!

Yeah...Verlander was just horrible in Detroit wasn't he.
If you think offensive and defensive support don't mean anything to a pitcher then you just don't understand it very much.

Cole and any other good pitcher get better with age. They get more intelligent.
I'm not saying the Astros coaching didn't help them but the team as a whole were much better than Pittsburgh and where Detroit headed after cleaning house and salary.

It's like this...over the season of say 35 starts...
How many errors over those starts impact the game within the game. The offense can also dictate how aggressively you go after the other hitters. If your offense is non existent and your defense porous then you feel like you must pitch perfectly every single at bat.
With a runner on base and facing the number 3 hitter in inning 6 you are going to be much more careful pitching for a bad team than a great team. Even to a point where you may concede walks to face the next guy. Pitchers don't like that. They want to go after ever hitter.
Pitching defensively all the time sucks as opposed to being able to go after it.

"Cole and any other good pitcher get better with age. They get more intelligent." It really is not this clean cut man. IQ while it is important pales in comparison to developing a third and forth pitch. There is really far too many variables to just chalk it up to one thing, I think you are extremely off base in claiming @nemeth#5 knows very little about baseball lol. When you say stuff like that you just come off like a tool because we all know well that is not at all true.

Yes offensive production effects a pitchers record but it does not impact his ERA does it? Or how hard he is throwing? Yes errors impact a pitcher pitch count and can impact runs scored but it does not count against his ERA. When you are dissecting a pitcher you are really not looking for numbers that are out of the pitchers control. The schematics of pitching also pales in comparison to teaching pitchers a better release or balance, things related more to delivery, the non tangible things that are not recorded in baseball are more often in not the most important things.

 

[nemeth#5]

Yeah...Verlander was just horrible in Detroit wasn't he.
If you think offensive and defensive support don't mean anything to a pitcher then you just don't understand it very much.

Cole and any other good pitcher get better with age. They get more intelligent.
I'm not saying the Astros coaching didn't help them but the team as a whole were much better than Pittsburgh and where Detroit headed after cleaning house and salary.

It's like this...over the season of say 35 starts...
How many errors over those starts impact the game within the game. The offense can also dictate how aggressively you go after the other hitters. If your offense is non existent and your defense porous then you feel like you must pitch perfectly every single at bat.
With a runner on base and facing the number 3 hitter in inning 6 you are going to be much more careful pitching for a bad team than a great team. Even to a point where you may concede walks to face the next guy. Pitchers don't like that. They want to go after ever hitter.
Pitching defensively all the time sucks as opposed to being able to go after it.

I really do not know what you are arguing here? The only claim I made was the Cole figured it out when he got to Houston.... and I pointed out that Verlander had had quite the resurgence as well..... he has always been great but since getting to Houston his numbers are insane.

I am not the only one who points out that Houston has a certain way of coaching pitching and it results in certain pitchers gaining an edge they may no longer have, or never had (Cole). Other people think maybe they are cheating by using a foreign substance for grip getting them a higher spin rate.

So you dont think the Astros Coaching had anythign to do with it and it is just pitchers 'getting better with age?' Or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing and looking to try and act like an expert in baseball now as well?


https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...or-bauer-astros-spin-rate-cheating/572199002/
https://www.theringer.com/mlb/2019/6/3/18644512/mvp-machine-how-houston-astros-became-great-scouting