Texas, Oklahoma supposedly interested in joining SEC

[Juniper_Run]

I attended the 2012 game in Norman. The OU fans were great. I was treated like a king. As you point out, ND and OU do have a history. The two schools need to schedule another home and home.

This is all going to lead to plenty of home and homes with great schools like OU. All parties involved will carefully weigh their options and realize that conferences do nothing more than create unnecessarily repetitive schedules. Everyone will choose independence and embrace the joys of playing a truly national schedule.

Hey, a guy can dream, right!

 

[Okie70]

I attended the 2012 game in Norman. The OU fans were great. I was treated like a king. As you point out, ND and OU do have a history. The two schools need to schedule another home and home.

Am all in favor. OU fans would probably prefer Nebraska and Irish to any other out of conference teams. Unless Okie State becomes out of conference. Play Huskers the next two years and then in about 7 years. Hope OU gets Irish back on the schedule. At least OU won the last one.

 

[tbonesays]

TBone, Ut has never been the King of the Big 12. One first conf championship in '96 with a 7-4 team in a monumental upset of Nebraska. Won in 2005 (National champions, great team) and 2009 (last second win over Neb.). Nothing for the last 11 years.

I mean political power at the table. I heard the Big12 doesn't have a conference network because UTexas had to have their own channel 657 that no one watches.

This is all going to lead to plenty of home and homes with great schools like OU. All parties involved will carefully weigh their options and realize that conferences do nothing more than create unnecessarily repetitive schedules. Everyone will choose independence and embrace the joys of playing a truly national schedule.

Hey, a guy can dream, right!

IF there will ever be an academic athletic conference, as has been suggested 1 million times, now is the time to do it.

 

[scubastevefl]

So you are saying NDame will come to the Big 12 if OU and Texas stay? Hear! Hear! I am definitely in favor. Then just get BYU (you know, two religious schools) to join and will be the Big 12 again. Can you sell this to Coach Kelly? Hey, you guys did beat us in Norman in 2012. And 1957. And 1962. And 1966. Saw them all.

No, I’m saying go if they leave, guarantee yourself a bye every year. People are underestimating ND never being able to get a first round bye.

 

[BGI User 1596]

I mean political power at the table. I heard the Big12 doesn't have a conference network because UTexas had to have their own channel 657 that no one watches.


IF there will ever be an academic athletic conference, as has been suggested 1 million times, now is the time to do it.

It’s called the Ivey League!

 

[Kelso86]

They would still be independent in that they negotiate their own tv deal for home games.... They would however have to share revenues same as last year. Just as the acc would have to share with nd...

And would actually make more I the deal then they do alone.

"They would still be independent in that they negotiate their own tv deal for home games.... They would however have to share revenues same as last year. Just as the acc would have to share with nd..."

The ACC would have NO part in that -- if there is sharing to be done, ND will then become a full-time member.

 

[northvanole]

A fun recap of all the unsubstantiated rumors:

Feels like 1990 when ND signed the first contract with NBC, which led to the end of the College Football Association (CFA, which was the entity that was doing most of the TV renegotiation). What ND did created the spark that ignited the rush of conference realignment (because ND was the only university that could strike a deal with a major network as a stand alone TV contract). Ironically, ND holds the keys to many of the next moves. ND may want to keep its independence, but if ever there was a time where ND had maximum leverage to create a conference that makes sense for them - or redefines how they handle independence - this is it. Every rumor about what happens next seems to ask, what does this mean to ND, and what do they want? So, today we hear that although Big 12 leadership had a friendly chat with UT and OU last night, it seems to be all systems go that those two universities will officially tell the Big 12 today that they will not renew the GOR and TV contract following the 2024 season. And while there is some certainty that that will happen, it's the "next steps" that are keeping people wondering. Here are the most current rumors (all of which impact ND in some fashion):

1). Strong rumors that Clemson and FSU are talking to the SEC. The SEC wants to "lock up" its region and getting CU and FSU all of a sudden becomes a viable option. The ACC has a strong GOR that ends in 2036. However, the GOR is between the members and the conference; ESPN is not a party to it. If enough ACC members bail if they see CU and FSU leaving, there will be no conference to enforce the GOR. Can ND join the ACC and prevent this from happening? No, that's not enough for ND and rightly so. The SEC will become too powerful with the addition of OU and UT. The ACC, even with ND, is not enough to have an equal voice. Frankly, ND will have a greater voice just staying put. So long as they are independent, the idea that they can join any conference they want to remains a strong asset. There is an additional rumor that the SEC has reached out to OSU and Michigan. I have read the Michigan President's comments during the pandemic; I consider that rumor silly. Would FSU fans want to jump into the SEC? Yes. It is likely that the new SEC will go to a 9 game conference schedule, and that would put the FSU-UF annual game at risk if those two schools stay in separate conferences. So if the SEC wants FSU, it will happen. The fan base will not allow FSU to "think outside the box" again as they did in 1991 when they basically chose the ACC over the SEC.

2). Conversely, the B10 is looking at UNC, UVA, GT and FSU. Yes, FSU is not in the AAU, but the B10 going into that part of the country without getting into Florida would be grounds for negligence. FSU of course would accept that, but it is doubtful that Kevin Warren can pull it off. Who trusts him? I know that the Big Ten just hired Barry Alvarez as special football consultant (translation, they don't trust Kevin Warren either) but they would be starting from scratch and they have to be afraid of rumor #3.

3). Rumor - ND has named its pathway to full football membership in the ACC. They will do it, starting in 2024, if Penn State joins them. You have to know PSU's history to understand this one. Three times - THREE - PSU tried to craft a deal to get into the Big East in the 1980's. On it's own terms. As in Joe Paterno's terms. Joe knew he was the biggest fish in the northeast - mid Atlantic - and he wanted a revenue share to match it. Pitt led the final vote (5-3) to keep PSU out of the Big East. But Joe did really want to be in it. After allowing Paterno a seat at the table with the Big East, the President of PSU went behind his back and struck a deal with the Big Ten. Joe had no input and knowledge of it until it was done. Joe did not want to be in the Big Ten. It put the midwestern schools in his backyard, but PSU by itself couldn't get equal access to the midwest. Can this actually happen? The current President of PSU is Eric Barron, formerly with FSU. He has no interest in athletics and no skill set in handling it. He forced the FSU Board of Trustees to sign the first GOR. I can give more evidence of his lack of leadership skills but I wills stop as he announced his retirement. Are there any real legs to this? On the PSU side..perhaps..PSU would be very interested in being in a conference with ND. But does ND really want this? Only you guys know. I am only putting context into these very interesting rumors, even if unfounded..hahaha. So let's get to #4.

4). Don't Mess with Texas....and don't trust them either. Just because UT is leaving the Big 12 does not mean they automatically go to the SEC. For a brief moment in time, UT will legally be an "independent" school. Hmmm, who does that sound like? Who did the former UT AD want to align with back in 2012? That of course would be ND. (You guys are everywhere in the rumor heat map!). Would UT (and OU) make some alignment with ND that leaves them all independent? For football, that would not that difficult. The issue would be the non football sports. What makes this rumor believable is that the sheer marketing power and financial strength of combining ND and UT makes this possible. But even UT and ND are not immune to the impacts of whatever the other conferences do.

The only rumor that is true is "Everybody is talking". Every conference leader and every school in the Power 5 is looking at the movement of UT and OU as a material event that will change college football. Swarbrick is also (as he said to ESPN). But there are no ground rules. There is no Pete Rozelle to create a unified approach to college football. There are more programs afraid of losing what they have as opposed to programs that can better their position. That is not healthy, and mistakes will be made.

 

[NDSMC78]

3). Rumor - ND has named its pathway to full football membership in the ACC. They will do it, starting in 2024, if Penn State joins them. You have to know PSU's history to understand this one. Three times - THREE - PSU tried to craft a deal to get into the Big East in the 1980's. On it's own terms. As in Joe Paterno's terms. Joe knew he was the biggest fish in the northeast - mid Atlantic - and he wanted a revenue share to match it. Pitt led the final vote (5-3) to keep PSU out of the Big East. But Joe did really want to be in it. After allowing Paterno a seat at the table with the Big East, the President of PSU went behind his back and struck a deal with the Big Ten. Joe had no input and knowledge of it until it was done. Joe did not want to be in the Big Ten. It put the midwestern schools in his backyard, but PSU by itself couldn't get equal access to the midwest. Can this actually happen? The current President of PSU is Eric Barron, formerly with FSU. He has no interest in athletics and no skill set in handling it. He forced the FSU Board of Trustees to sign the first GOR. I can give more evidence of his lack of leadership skills but I wills stop as he announced his retirement. Are there any real legs to this? On the PSU side..perhaps..PSU would be very interested in being in a conference with ND. But does ND really want this? Only you guys know. I am only putting context into these very interesting rumors, even if unfounded..hahaha. So let's get to #4.

While your rumors make for some interesting reading, the idea of ND suggesting that it would join the ACC if Penn St. comes along doesn't make a lot of sense to me. If ND wanted to join the ACC, it could do so. There is no good reason to tie ND joining the ACC to what some other school does.
Beyond that, it is hard to imagine Penn St. leaving the Big 10. The research dollars which Penn St. gains by virtue of its membership in the Big 10 are just too much to walk away from. If, as you say, the current PSU president "has no interest in athletics," this makes the idea of PSU leaving the Big 10 less likely.

I should add that, with the changes which are now coming about in CFB, ND is likely going to be in the position that significant decisions need to be made soon. But if ND is going to join the ACC, I don't think that what PSU does or doesn't do will be a major factor in that decision.

 

[northvanole]

Right now PSU is looking to see if the Big Ten will go west for USC and other schools

 

[Kelso86]

Right now PSU is looking to see if the Big Ten will go west for USC and other schools

Only thing I have heard is that Kansas and Iowa State have reached out to the Big 10. Outside of that, I have not seen anything else (but that is me -- have been able to keep up with ALL the BS going on)

 

[VTND]

I believe the B1G already had talks with both but broke it off mainly because of Texas demands. Everybody is assuming it's a good thing for the SEC but not so sure. Oklahoma is a solid pickup but Texas ? If you travel around some of the SEC boards, many are not happy as they view Texas as a spoiled brat and even labeled a cancer that's destroyed and brought down every league they've been in. The BiG and ACC are both solid financially and probably feel they don't need the Texas headaches.

For some reason TX acting like spoiled brats doesn't surprise me. Seems best if they stay in the Big 12 then.

 

[northvanole]

Talking about a program's personality seems a bit funny to me when the entire OU-TU-SEC combination is all about money and power. The SEC is creating a super conference and its next steps are unknown. It was the SEC that insisted that if the playoffs expand and the conferences wanted a way to give access to conference champions, the playoff spots have to be 12 instead of 8. All of sudden, the SEC having a minimum of 3 teams in the playoffs each year doesn't seem so far fetched. Barring some unforeseen event, the B12 looks like its about to implode. It has no glue to keep it together and individual programs are already looking for a landing spot. The Big Ten has enough money and power to control its destiny but no one knows if they will continue to look east (like when they added Rutgers and Maryland), or go west...like all the way west. The B10 never thought about merging with parts of the PAC 12, but the events of this week have caused a re-calibration. There's a lot of buzz coming from USC. A lot. (And I don't mean South Carolina).

This is a cutthroat business which apparently has no standards of conduct. UT and OU kept its fellow B12 members in the dark and the SEC kept A&M and Missouri in the dark. ESPN was probably aware of what was going on, and kept ACC commish Jim Phillips in the dark. And now there is distrust everywhere.

 

[Ara64]

I had a thought this morning about what ND should do. Why not let the ACC expand it's little heart out; then stay as a part time member. It only strengthens the ACC and gives the ACC what ESPN wants, the ND brand and the bucks it brings to their coffers. ND gets to keep it's independence and the ACC isn't weaken. Just a thought too consider in these changing times.

 

[delcoLion]

A fun recap of all the unsubstantiated rumors:

Feels like 1990 when ND signed the first contract with NBC, which led to the end of the College Football Association (CFA, which was the entity that was doing most of the TV renegotiation). What ND did created the spark that ignited the rush of conference realignment (because ND was the only university that could strike a deal with a major network as a stand alone TV contract). Ironically, ND holds the keys to many of the next moves. ND may want to keep its independence, but if ever there was a time where ND had maximum leverage to create a conference that makes sense for them - or redefines how they handle independence - this is it. Every rumor about what happens next seems to ask, what does this mean to ND, and what do they want? So, today we hear that although Big 12 leadership had a friendly chat with UT and OU last night, it seems to be all systems go that those two universities will officially tell the Big 12 today that they will not renew the GOR and TV contract following the 2024 season. And while there is some certainty that that will happen, it's the "next steps" that are keeping people wondering. Here are the most current rumors (all of which impact ND in some fashion):

1). Strong rumors that Clemson and FSU are talking to the SEC. The SEC wants to "lock up" its region and getting CU and FSU all of a sudden becomes a viable option. The ACC has a strong GOR that ends in 2036. However, the GOR is between the members and the conference; ESPN is not a party to it. If enough ACC members bail if they see CU and FSU leaving, there will be no conference to enforce the GOR. Can ND join the ACC and prevent this from happening? No, that's not enough for ND and rightly so. The SEC will become too powerful with the addition of OU and UT. The ACC, even with ND, is not enough to have an equal voice. Frankly, ND will have a greater voice just staying put. So long as they are independent, the idea that they can join any conference they want to remains a strong asset. There is an additional rumor that the SEC has reached out to OSU and Michigan. I have read the Michigan President's comments during the pandemic; I consider that rumor silly. Would FSU fans want to jump into the SEC? Yes. It is likely that the new SEC will go to a 9 game conference schedule, and that would put the FSU-UF annual game at risk if those two schools stay in separate conferences. So if the SEC wants FSU, it will happen. The fan base will not allow FSU to "think outside the box" again as they did in 1991 when they basically chose the ACC over the SEC.

2). Conversely, the B10 is looking at UNC, UVA, GT and FSU. Yes, FSU is not in the AAU, but the B10 going into that part of the country without getting into Florida would be grounds for negligence. FSU of course would accept that, but it is doubtful that Kevin Warren can pull it off. Who trusts him? I know that the Big Ten just hired Barry Alvarez as special football consultant (translation, they don't trust Kevin Warren either) but they would be starting from scratch and they have to be afraid of rumor #3.

3). Rumor - ND has named its pathway to full football membership in the ACC. They will do it, starting in 2024, if Penn State joins them. You have to know PSU's history to understand this one. Three times - THREE - PSU tried to craft a deal to get into the Big East in the 1980's. On it's own terms. As in Joe Paterno's terms. Joe knew he was the biggest fish in the northeast - mid Atlantic - and he wanted a revenue share to match it. Pitt led the final vote (5-3) to keep PSU out of the Big East. But Joe did really want to be in it. After allowing Paterno a seat at the table with the Big East, the President of PSU went behind his back and struck a deal with the Big Ten. Joe had no input and knowledge of it until it was done. Joe did not want to be in the Big Ten. It put the midwestern schools in his backyard, but PSU by itself couldn't get equal access to the midwest. Can this actually happen? The current President of PSU is Eric Barron, formerly with FSU. He has no interest in athletics and no skill set in handling it. He forced the FSU Board of Trustees to sign the first GOR. I can give more evidence of his lack of leadership skills but I wills stop as he announced his retirement. Are there any real legs to this? On the PSU side..perhaps..PSU would be very interested in being in a conference with ND. But does ND really want this? Only you guys know. I am only putting context into these very interesting rumors, even if unfounded..hahaha. So let's get to #4.

4). Don't Mess with Texas....and don't trust them either. Just because UT is leaving the Big 12 does not mean they automatically go to the SEC. For a brief moment in time, UT will legally be an "independent" school. Hmmm, who does that sound like? Who did the former UT AD want to align with back in 2012? That of course would be ND. (You guys are everywhere in the rumor heat map!). Would UT (and OU) make some alignment with ND that leaves them all independent? For football, that would not that difficult. The issue would be the non football sports. What makes this rumor believable is that the sheer marketing power and financial strength of combining ND and UT makes this possible. But even UT and ND are not immune to the impacts of whatever the other conferences do.

The only rumor that is true is "Everybody is talking". Every conference leader and every school in the Power 5 is looking at the movement of UT and OU as a material event that will change college football. Swarbrick is also (as he said to ESPN). But there are no ground rules. There is no Pete Rozelle to create a unified approach to college football. There are more programs afraid of losing what they have as opposed to programs that can better their position. That is not healthy, and mistakes will be made.

Your understanding of PSU/Big East/Big 10 events are completely incorrect. You got nothing right. And as a guest here, I’m not going take up time on a ND board. You want to discuss, go over to the PSU rivals site.

For the ND people here, I have multiple ND graduates in our family and the family has been rooting for the Irish since before the Depression.

 

[4-4-3]

Agreed. That is where we are. But I also agree that it makes no sense for ND to be "just another member of the ACC". Or any conference for that matter. You don't take decades of building a national reputation and then putting it in a blender of conformity. The current arrangement would be fine by me but the ACC leadership screwed up its negotiations with ESPN and put itself at risk. I do think there is a good football conference in the ACC, but it's hidden in its senseless divisions and parochial interests of Tobacco Road politics. Keep in mind that most FSU fans in 1992 didn't want to join either the SEC or the ACC, when we had an opportunity to choose. But the decision to go to the ACC was driven by the sheer personality and leadership of then ACC Commish Gene Corrigan...who became conference commish in 1987 after spending time as ND AD.

There may be a way to get this done and I agree it has to be on ND's terms. If you read multiple message boards, it seems like the OU-UT movement has put every team and conference in play. Lots of "talk" about FSU and Clemson going to the SEC and UNC and UVA to the Big Ten. Most people assume that FSU wants to go to the SEC. It would be a great business move. But the old guard FSU fans (like me) only want to do that if it's the only way to play SEC teams in football. We would rather play them as an independent. FSU really isn't like a lot of the schools in the SEC.

But now, everyone is at risk. If the playoffs expand and the SEC and ACC go to a 9 game conference schedule there is a risk that FSU will lose its annual game with UF. There is no state law that requires it to be played, and the game is always renewed under a 4 year schedule. On the other hand, Dabo and Mack Brown are proposing that college football go back to an 11 game regular season schedule if the playoffs expand. From an academic standpoint, that is a good idea. But - That would really kill the annual FSU-UF game. This is why the ACC has yet to endorse the playoff expansion. Academics still matter (to a point I guess).

There is no question that the decision of ND to play an ACC conference schedule in 2020 was the factor that forced Kevin Warren to get his head out of his butt and have the Big Ten play football. As Heather Dinich wrote, it was ND that made the 2020 season happen.

Now, ND could be the leader in calming the nonsense caused by the SEC and UT and OU. The collateral effects of disorganized conference realignment may claim many victims.

Sounds like a pretty strong analysis, and I say "sounds" as I'm not as versed as you and others in some of the "inside baseball" aspects of all of this. I don't follow other teams closely or their various interrelations. My angle is more as a business generalist.

With that in mind, I'd say follow the money. There is nothing that can stand up to enhanced cash flow as long as all of these schools accept the proposition that it's okay to continue to bend the educational mission on behalf of greater monetization.

What they're all going for is sustainable cash flow over time. And where the brainwork will come in is not only in the cost/benefit calculation but also in measuring that calculation both long and short term. But in the end, those who make the best MONEY DECISIONS will prevail and dictate the future of the game.

Just what that future turns out to be is to me unimportant. What will be will be. For instance, as Mike Golic observed over the weekend, will anyone care in two years' time that Cleveland was renamed the Guardians? No. Life will go on.

But as a follower of ND's evolution since the 50's, what interests me is a) exactly how much leverage it will be able to bring to bear on this conference realignment issue -- your closing discussion point -- and b) where might it encounter its own set of difficulties.

For instance, while I prefer that ND remain independent, I can't help but feel that as CASH FLOW ISSUES push CFB in an ever more regulated, maximal playoff-friendly direction, ND's interests could diverge. And were that to happen, would it wield -- or even wish to -- the same amount of clout it does now? And in that case, might independence become no more than a bargaining chip in a completely transformed CFB landscape?

CFB could easily adopt a FULL-ON NFL outlook and M.O. Could ND? It remains to be seen. But I doubt ND can do it without compromising certain current non-negotiables. And since it hasn't done so to date, what are the odds that this changes? It may depend in the end just how many $$$ are involved. Again, follow the money. But to get its share, does ND bend or not?

Many may think so, but ND does not control CFB. Nor is it bigger than the game.

 

[TDIrish27]

Agree completely 4-4----CFB becoming more like the NFL every season and I 'm sorry to say I think the trend continues.

We are not far from a group of 4 16-18 team " Super Conferences " and at that point ND will be forced to fish or cut bait regarding it's current Independent status.

Not sure I'll see it in my lifetime but Pay To Play will be a factor in college athletics I have no doubt about that.

 

[tbonesays]

A fun recap of all the unsubstantiated rumors:

Feels like 1990 when ND signed the first contract with NBC, which led to the end of the College Football Association (CFA, which was the entity that was doing most of the TV renegotiation). What ND did created the spark that ignited the rush of conference realignment (because ND was the only university that could strike a deal with a major network as a stand alone TV contract). Ironically, ND holds the keys to many of the next moves. ND may want to keep its independence, but if ever there was a time where ND had maximum leverage to create a conference that makes sense for them - or redefines how they handle independence - this is it. Every rumor about what happens next seems to ask, what does this mean to ND, and what do they want? So, today we hear that although Big 12 leadership had a friendly chat with UT and OU last night, it seems to be all systems go that those two universities will officially tell the Big 12 today that they will not renew the GOR and TV contract following the 2024 season. And while there is some certainty that that will happen, it's the "next steps" that are keeping people wondering. Here are the most current rumors (all of which impact ND in some fashion):

1). Strong rumors that Clemson and FSU are talking to the SEC. The SEC wants to "lock up" its region and getting CU and FSU all of a sudden becomes a viable option. The ACC has a strong GOR that ends in 2036. However, the GOR is between the members and the conference; ESPN is not a party to it. If enough ACC members bail if they see CU and FSU leaving, there will be no conference to enforce the GOR. Can ND join the ACC and prevent this from happening? No, that's not enough for ND and rightly so. The SEC will become too powerful with the addition of OU and UT. The ACC, even with ND, is not enough to have an equal voice. Frankly, ND will have a greater voice just staying put. So long as they are independent, the idea that they can join any conference they want to remains a strong asset. There is an additional rumor that the SEC has reached out to OSU and Michigan. I have read the Michigan President's comments during the pandemic; I consider that rumor silly. Would FSU fans want to jump into the SEC? Yes. It is likely that the new SEC will go to a 9 game conference schedule, and that would put the FSU-UF annual game at risk if those two schools stay in separate conferences. So if the SEC wants FSU, it will happen. The fan base will not allow FSU to "think outside the box" again as they did in 1991 when they basically chose the ACC over the SEC.

2). Conversely, the B10 is looking at UNC, UVA, GT and FSU. Yes, FSU is not in the AAU, but the B10 going into that part of the country without getting into Florida would be grounds for negligence. FSU of course would accept that, but it is doubtful that Kevin Warren can pull it off. Who trusts him? I know that the Big Ten just hired Barry Alvarez as special football consultant (translation, they don't trust Kevin Warren either) but they would be starting from scratch and they have to be afraid of rumor #3.

3). Rumor - ND has named its pathway to full football membership in the ACC. They will do it, starting in 2024, if Penn State joins them. You have to know PSU's history to understand this one. Three times - THREE - PSU tried to craft a deal to get into the Big East in the 1980's. On it's own terms. As in Joe Paterno's terms. Joe knew he was the biggest fish in the northeast - mid Atlantic - and he wanted a revenue share to match it. Pitt led the final vote (5-3) to keep PSU out of the Big East. But Joe did really want to be in it. After allowing Paterno a seat at the table with the Big East, the President of PSU went behind his back and struck a deal with the Big Ten. Joe had no input and knowledge of it until it was done. Joe did not want to be in the Big Ten. It put the midwestern schools in his backyard, but PSU by itself couldn't get equal access to the midwest. Can this actually happen? The current President of PSU is Eric Barron, formerly with FSU. He has no interest in athletics and no skill set in handling it. He forced the FSU Board of Trustees to sign the first GOR. I can give more evidence of his lack of leadership skills but I wills stop as he announced his retirement. Are there any real legs to this? On the PSU side..perhaps..PSU would be very interested in being in a conference with ND. But does ND really want this? Only you guys know. I am only putting context into these very interesting rumors, even if unfounded..hahaha. So let's get to #4.

4). Don't Mess with Texas....and don't trust them either. Just because UT is leaving the Big 12 does not mean they automatically go to the SEC. For a brief moment in time, UT will legally be an "independent" school. Hmmm, who does that sound like? Who did the former UT AD want to align with back in 2012? That of course would be ND. (You guys are everywhere in the rumor heat map!). Would UT (and OU) make some alignment with ND that leaves them all independent? For football, that would not that difficult. The issue would be the non football sports. What makes this rumor believable is that the sheer marketing power and financial strength of combining ND and UT makes this possible. But even UT and ND are not immune to the impacts of whatever the other conferences do.

The only rumor that is true is "Everybody is talking". Every conference leader and every school in the Power 5 is looking at the movement of UT and OU as a material event that will change college football. Swarbrick is also (as he said to ESPN). But there are no ground rules. There is no Pete Rozelle to create a unified approach to college football. There are more programs afraid of losing what they have as opposed to programs that can better their position. That is not healthy, and mistakes will be made.

Your understanding of PSU/Big East/Big 10 events are completely incorrect. You got nothing right. And as a guest here, I’m not going take up time on a ND board. You want to discuss, go over to the PSU rivals site.

For the ND people here, I have multiple ND graduates in our family and the family has been rooting for the Irish since before the Depression.

Not sure what was wrong. The Big East infamously rejected Penn State in the early 90s, the only debate is which school had that bright idea that ultimately would doom the conference. I suspect Pittsburgh.

Otherwise the fan-fiction rumors seem to be a current edition of the
Independent Coalition idea spun by fans of CFB in the 1980s. The idea was that all the independents would work together on some things and be sort of led by the Notre Dame, Penn State, and Miami. It never really got any traction.

It's fun to dream, but as others have said, no school* voluntarily takes a pay cut to make its football conference better. Penn State will likely never change conferences unless the money is good.

*well 1 school did turn down the conference pay check to protect her identity, which is part football.

 

[tbonesays]

Am all in favor. OU fans would probably prefer Nebraska and Irish to any other out of conference teams. Unless Okie State becomes out of conference. Play Huskers the next two years and then in about 7 years. Hope OU gets Irish back on the schedule. At least OU won the last one.

Why does Oklahoma want to finish about 4th in the SEC instead of winning the Big12 for the next 20 years?

 

[Okie70]

Why does Oklahoma want to finish about 4th in the SEC instead of winning the Big12 for the next 20 years?

Good question. Not sure OU would be the fourth best today; clearly not Alabama talent. But guess the gamble worth and extra $30 mil or so.

 

[4-4-3]

Agree completely 4-4----CFB becoming more like the NFL every season and I 'm sorry to say I think the trend continues.

We are not far from a group of 4 16-18 team " Super Conferences " and at that point ND will be forced to fish or cut bait regarding it's current Independent status.

Not sure I'll see it in my lifetime but Pay To Play will be a factor in college athletics I have no doubt about that.

I think you’re right. What’s happening now has been trending this way for years.

If the super-conference alignment occurs, there are, I would think, three possibilities as relates to ND:

• ND retains its “independence” and negotiates a PERMANENT AT LARGE BERTH dependent on it winning, say, at least 10 games a year. In other words, the other 64 teams have to grind it out vs. each other, but ND gets its IMMACULATE EXCEPTION. (And changes its name for “cultural appropriation” reasons from the Fighting Irish to the Fighting Immaculate 65th). Fun is fun, but I can’t see that ever flying as it would be like the Yankees – because they’re the Yankees – automatically qualifying for the playoffs as long as they win 90 games. At some point, ND is either FULLY PART OF THE MONEY NEXUS or it isn’t. Which leads to possibility 2 . . .
• ND joins a conference as it wishes to remain a force in college football. Or, number 3 . . .
• It chooses not to join a conference, thereby disqualifying itself from NC contention but continues playing football below the super conference level.

There’s also a 4th possibility, however remote: ND drops football.

Realistically, when looking at each of these possibilities, which makes the most common sense?

All things being equal, NUMBER 2.

ND joins a conference in order to compete for the NC because this sort of planned and regulated monetization of a sport has no room for exceptions or prima donnas. Plus, ND WANTS THE MONEY.

But there’s still a caveat. And it comes from the NIL/Pay for Play side. Namely, as that entire process evolves, does it at some point create issues that conflict with the primacy of ND’s vaunted “educational mission?”

For instance, is an outright TOTALLY MONETIZED CFB/NFL minor/major league relationship to ND’s liking? Or is it better off just playing football with the teams that didn’t make the super-league cut? Oh, and versus the Ivy League and probably service academies, too? That is, its ACADEMIC PEERS.

Time will tell.

 

[TDIrish27]

Good question. Not sure OU would be the fourth best today; clearly not Alabama talent. But guess the gamble worth and extra $30 mil or so.

Am I the only one who thinks OU to the SEC is not a done deal as of yet ?

If I'm them I would much rather be in the Big Ten for multiple reasons.

1. Much easier path to the expanded Playoff if I'm in the Big Ten West than either SEC Division.

2. Money

3. Easier travel schedule for my non revenue Olympic sports

4. Money

I would be shocked if new Big Ten Commish for football Barry Alvarez is not putting those thoughts in OU AD Joe Castiglione's ear. We'll see what happens.

 

[northvanole]

The situation is out of control as the leadership of too many schools are spending too much time not focusing on their main purpose. I understand how the money tree is shaking the foundation of the sport, and ESPN is all too happy to hide behind the curtain and pull all the strings. We all knew that the 4 team playoff system was an experiment and that any expansion of it would prompt more realignment. I had hoped that the current round of realignment would be done more congenially with conferences working together. But ESPN has no use for that, and the Big Ten and SEC were particularly interested in weaponizing the revenue wars. I don't know where the leadership is to make this stop. After the ACC-ND deal of 2020, it seemed like only the leaders of those institutions could knock some sense into the system. But even a cynical person like me is dumbfounded of the treachery of OU and UT to completely destroy a conference that was created according to their prior whims, and the leaders of 12 SEC schools agreed to block any useful information regarding the addition of UT and OU from the two most recent members that they invited to their precious little club.

Well, OU and UT are not in the SEC yet. But good grief. Who wants them. So, now we have an SEC that promotes treachery and a Big Ten run by a guy who needs to wear a "Trainee" hat so people can understand the nonsense he spews. And they are the most powerful in the land?

Help.

 

[Kelso86]

Am I the only one who thinks OU to the SEC is not a done deal as of yet ?

If I'm them I would much rather be in the Big Ten for multiple reasons.

1. Much easier path to the expanded Playoff if I'm in the Big Ten West than either SEC Division.

2. Money

3. Easier travel schedule for my non revenue Olympic sports

4. Money

I would be shocked if new Big Ten Commish for football Barry Alvarez is not putting those thoughts in OU AD Joe Castiglione's ear. We'll see what happens.

"would be shocked if new Big Ten Commish for football Barry Alvarez is not putting those thoughts in OU AD Joe Castiglione's ear".

I thought Kevin Warren is the BIG 10 Commissioner and Scott Chipman is the Associate Commissioner for Football Operations?

 

[NDSMC78]

"would be shocked if new Big Ten Commish for football Barry Alvarez is not putting those thoughts in OU AD Joe Castiglione's ear".

I thought Kevin Warren is the BIG 10 Commissioner and Scott Chipman is the Associate Commissioner for Football Operations?

You are correct. Barry Alvarez is a "special advisor" to the Big 10.

 

[TDIrish27]

You are correct. Barry Alvarez is a "special advisor" to the Big 10.

My bad on the title but if Kevin Warren ever has an original idea it will die alone.

Who do you think Castiglione is going to listen to Scott Chipman or Barry Alvarez ?

Barry also coached Bob Stoops in college which is another pretty good contact to have in Norman , Oklahoma.

 

[Kelso86]

My bad on the title but if Kevin Warren ever has an original idea it will die alone.

Who do you think Castiglione is going to listen to Scott Chipman or Barry Alvarez ?

Barry also coached Bob Stoops in college which is another pretty good contact to have in Norman , Oklahoma.

"My bad on the title but if Kevin Warren ever has an original idea it will die alone"

Won't argue that point! lol

 

[tbonesays]

The situation is out of control as the leadership of too many schools are spending too much time not focusing on their main purpose. I understand how the money tree is shaking the foundation of the sport, and ESPN is all too happy to hide behind the curtain and pull all the strings. We all knew that the 4 team playoff system was an experiment and that any expansion of it would prompt more realignment. I had hoped that the current round of realignment would be done more congenially with conferences working together. But ESPN has no use for that, and the Big Ten and SEC were particularly interested in weaponizing the revenue wars. I don't know where the leadership is to make this stop. After the ACC-ND deal of 2020, it seemed like only the leaders of those institutions could knock some sense into the system. But even a cynical person like me is dumbfounded of the treachery of OU and UT to completely destroy a conference that was created according to their prior whims, and the leaders of 12 SEC schools agreed to block any useful information regarding the addition of UT and OU from the two most recent members that they invited to their precious little club.

Well, OU and UT are not in the SEC yet. But good grief. Who wants them. So, now we have an SEC that promotes treachery and a Big Ten run by a guy who needs to wear a "Trainee" hat so people can understand the nonsense he spews. And they are the most powerful in the land?

Help.

This is just the Nth reason why the state governments need to start running state universities like any other state division. Imagine if the Division of Motor Vehicles decided to sell out to another state and ignored the legislature and governor's wishes.

I agree that ESPN is masterminding all of this. They can simply not buy the media rights to any conference change that they don't approve of. I don't know how they counted the beans but Disney must have figured that the money they save on the rest of the Big12, no longer a power conference, will pay for the next huge raise given to the SEC.

Notre Dame should make sure that one company never controls all of her media.

 

[4-4-3]

The situation is out of control as the leadership of too many schools are spending too much time not focusing on their main purpose. I understand how the money tree is shaking the foundation of the sport, and ESPN is all too happy to hide behind the curtain and pull all the strings. We all knew that the 4 team playoff system was an experiment and that any expansion of it would prompt more realignment. I had hoped that the current round of realignment would be done more congenially with conferences working together. But ESPN has no use for that, and the Big Ten and SEC were particularly interested in weaponizing the revenue wars. I don't know where the leadership is to make this stop. After the ACC-ND deal of 2020, it seemed like only the leaders of those institutions could knock some sense into the system. But even a cynical person like me is dumbfounded of the treachery of OU and UT to completely destroy a conference that was created according to their prior whims, and the leaders of 12 SEC schools agreed to block any useful information regarding the addition of UT and OU from the two most recent members that they invited to their precious little club.

Well, OU and UT are not in the SEC yet. But good grief. Who wants them. So, now we have an SEC that promotes treachery and a Big Ten run by a guy who needs to wear a "Trainee" hat so people can understand the nonsense he spews. And they are the most powerful in the land?

Help.

I think what is out of control is the OLD SITUATION. What we’re seeing now is the NEW SITUATION or NORMAL. Society has changed in a way whereby it’s NO LONGER OBSCENE to lead with money. It’s printed at random, earned with clicks, and with crypto, digitally measured. We’ve gone from totally COMMERCIALIZED to soon to be totally MONETIZED. Short of war, civil war, an energy/environmental crisis or financial implosion, nothing is likely to stop this.

As for university educators “not focusing on their main purpose,” I’ll say this. When I was in college in the late 60’s – and I went to what was known at the time as a “little Ivy” – our president was a SCHOLAR-TURNED-ADMINSTRATOR. But he still TAUGHT A CLASS OR TWO. After that, while every president of that institution may have had academic credentials of some sort, they were, IN FACT, glorified FUND-RAISERS.

US education became a cartel/racket decades ago and now has the same relationship to society as corporates, Wall Street, big tech, health care and the DOD. They partner with the government and WANT YOUR MONEY. Fine. It’s a commercial world. As long as everyone realizes it. Well, guess what? CFB is now upping ITS BID for your money. And how appropriate that ESPN is leading the charge, if that’s truly what’s happening. One cartel blending into another. Pretty soon, it’s just one – a MONOLITH.

The US’s biggest challenge as I see it, is to prevent its elites from becoming as powerful as the CCP or Putin and his oligarchs. No small order now that the authoritarianism vs. socialism debate is again in full swing.

As for CFB, it must for now feel bullet proof, the assumption being that no matter how it reconfigures leagues, conferences, playoffs or remuneration -- FANS WILL SIMPLY KEEP WATCHING. That may or may not be true but until it INARGUABLY ISN’T, CFB will keep doing what it's doing to MAXIMIZE REVENUES. And by the way, that’s not seen as any kind of EXPLOITATION but, instead, merely doing one’s job. Making your numbers as per EVER HIGHER BUDGETS.

It will be interesting to see how a VALUES-CONSCIOUS place like ND navigates this. Where will – and WON’T – the compromises fall?

 

[Okie70]

Am I the only one who thinks OU to the SEC is not a done deal as of yet ?

If I'm them I would much rather be in the Big Ten for multiple reasons.

1. Much easier path to the expanded Playoff if I'm in the Big Ten West than either SEC Division.

2. Money

3. Easier travel schedule for my non revenue Olympic sports

4. Money

I would be shocked if new Big Ten Commish for football Barry Alvarez is not putting those thoughts in OU AD Joe Castiglione's ear. We'll see what happens.

Am I the only one who thinks OU to the SEC is not a done deal as of yet ?

If I'm them I would much rather be in the Big Ten for multiple reasons.

1. Much easier path to the expanded Playoff if I'm in the Big Ten West than either SEC Division.

2. Money

3. Easier travel schedule for my non revenue Olympic sports

4. Money

I would be shocked if new Big Ten Commish for football Barry Alvarez is not putting those thoughts in OU AD Joe Castiglione's ear. We'll see what happens.

Music to my ears TD. Then OU could pound on Nebraska every year instead of playing Bama and LSU. But you forgot OU not a sacred AAU school. You know the profs in state schools thinking they can get as many grants as the Ivy Leaguers. Heard the Irish aren't either but believe Big 10 will give you guys a waiver. Not likely for the oil drillers.

 

[tbonesays]

US education became a cartel/racket decades ago and now has the same relationship to society as corporates, Wall Street, big tech, health care and the DOD. They partner with the government and WANT YOUR MONEY. Fine. It’s a commercial world. As long as everyone realizes it. Well, guess what? CFB is now upping ITS BID for your money. And how appropriate that ESPN is leading the charge, if that’s truly what’s happening. One cartel blending into another. Pretty soon, it’s just one – a MONOLITH.

Wall St is supposed to be some kind of racket. Education is a ministry and is supposed to be not for profit. These mega-Us back stabbing each other for a bigger paycheck from sports are legally designated non-profits.

 

[beachcardinal]

FWIW here at SC it looks like our AD is in favor of moving to the BIG long with UCLA, Colorado and Oregon,

However, that certainly isn't defining. First UCLA can't make the decisiion in school, it must be approved by the board of regents that governs all UC schools. There is also a thought that UCLA would not move without the Cal Bears. USC would be willing to move without UCLA, so long as we kept the annual game.

Not sure what other Pac schools are thinking, but OSU and ASU are not members of the AAU and that would be an issue for the BIG. All the other PAC schools are AAU members. I doubt Stanford would move, the admin just isnt that keen on sports. I would guess that if the four memntioned leave the Pac would pick up some of the remainiing school after Tex and Okla leave.

That's all I have from sunny Cal.

 

[tbonesays]

FWIW here at SC it looks like our AD is in favor of moving to the BIG long with UCLA, Colorado and Oregon,

However, that certainly isn't defining. First UCLA can't make the decisiion in school, it must be approved by the board of regents that governs all UC schools. There is also a thought that UCLA would not move without the Cal Bears. USC would be willing to move without UCLA, so long as we kept the annual game.

Not sure what other Pac schools are thinking, but OSU and ASU are not members of the AAU and that would be an issue for the BIG. All the other PAC schools are AAU members. I doubt Stanford would move, the admin just isnt that keen on sports. I would guess that if the four memntioned leave the Pac would pick up some of the remainiing school after Tex and Okla leave.

That's all I have from sunny Cal.

I think all of west coast schools to the BUG10 are conjecture at best. Fans and some Trojan big money guys may like the idea, but as you said they cannot make it happen. And some of those left coast governments may not be as powerless as Texas.

 

[mbd11]

This is just one more step towards 4 16-team superconferences, and eventually ND will have to join one of them.

 

[4-4-3]

Wall St is supposed to be some kind of racket. Education is a ministry and is supposed to be not for profit. These mega-Us back stabbing each other for a bigger paycheck from sports are legally designated non-profits.

That’s right, but that’s no longer a distinction with a difference.

Cash flow is cash flow and whoever thinks they can generate it, generates it. What are not-for-profits anyway other than so-called “mission driven” tax shelters? They don’t pay dividends, but they do amass capital and financial clout, and THEY DO TAKE CARE OF THEIR SENIOR PEOPLE.

Oh, and in the CFB arena – THEIR FOOTBALL COACHES.

The racketeering starts via the exorbitant tuition rates on top of – in many instances – extensive government largesse. Then these either over or under educated graduates – and sometimes, they’re both -- walk out into a disappearing job market that’s often incongruent with much of what many of them studied.

It’s a lot like the Catholic Church before the Reformation. And, of course, the Papacy is still this way today. A fact-cat organization amassing huge amounts of wealth from constituents who just keep BLINDLY GIVING.

Why should a PRIVATE university education cost $60,000 to $70,000 a year? Payable to a so-called NOT-FOR-PROFIT. So that we can watch college football which may soon be paying players on a scale similar to what coaches are being paid already? Is that where the money should be going?

And for what? Bread and circuses for “FANS?”

THAT’S what I call a RACKET.

 

[4-4-3]

That’s right, but that’s no longer a distinction with a difference.

Cash flow is cash flow and whoever thinks they can generate it, generates it. What are not-for-profits anyway other than so-called “mission driven” tax shelters? They don’t pay dividends, but they do amass capital and financial clout, and THEY DO TAKE CARE OF THEIR SENIOR PEOPLE.

Oh, and in the CFB arena – THEIR FOOTBALL COACHES.

The racketeering starts via the exorbitant tuition rates on top of – in many instances – extensive government largesse. Then these either over or under educated graduates – and sometimes, they’re both -- walk out into a disappearing job market that’s often incongruent with much of what many of them studied.

It’s a lot like the Catholic Church before the Reformation. And, of course, the Papacy is still this way today. A fact-cat organization amassing huge amounts of wealth from constituents who just keep BLINDLY GIVING.

Why should a PRIVATE university education cost $60,000 to $70,000 a year? Payable to a so-called NOT-FOR-PROFIT. So that we can watch college football which may soon be paying players on a scale similar to what coaches are being paid already? Is that where the money should be going?

And for what? Bread and circuses for “FANS?”

THAT’S what I call a RACKET.

And lest I forget as per my previous post . . .

What about the HONKING DEBT LOADS students leave college saddled with? It’s obscene and one of the EDUCATION RACKET’S CENTRAL FEATURES.

An average executive’s salary in the late 60’s when I was in college was around $40,000 per annum, give or take. My annual tuition at an expensive northeast “little Ivy” was about 10% of that. Given summer work I got and a few scholarships, my parents paid only a fraction of that.

What fraction of an average exec’s salary is annual tuition today? I guarantee you it’s a lot higher. And for those households with NO AVERAGE EXEC IN RESIDENCE, it’s in many cases a MULTIPLE. So, students today MUST BORROW to be educated in a society with a fading job market when in my day, mortgaging one’s future for an undergraduate degree was UNHEARD OF. Plus, management jobs were plentiful.

Tell me how a system that not only encourages but thrives on such a practice is not a RACKET.

 

[tbonesays]

And lest I forget as per my previous post . . .

What about the HONKING DEBT LOADS students leave college saddled with? It’s obscene and one of the EDUCATION RACKET’S CENTRAL FEATURES.

An average executive’s salary in the late 60’s when I was in college was around $40,000 per annum, give or take. My annual tuition at an expensive northeast “little Ivy” was about 10% of that. Given summer work I got and a few scholarships, my parents paid only a fraction of that.

What fraction of an average exec’s salary is annual tuition today? I guarantee you it’s a lot higher. And for those households with NO AVERAGE EXEC IN RESIDENCE, it’s in many cases a MULTIPLE. So, students today MUST BORROW to be educated in a society with a fading job market when in my day, mortgaging one’s future for an undergraduate degree was UNHEARD OF. Plus, management jobs were plentiful.

Tell me how a system that not only encourages but thrives on such a practice is not a RACKET.

The bubble can popped with one pen. Require the Us to co-sign on those student loans.

 

[beachcardinal]

I think all of west coast schools to the BUG10 are conjecture at best. Fans and some Trojan big money guys may like the idea, but as you said they cannot make it happen. And some of those left coast governments may not be as powerless as Texas.

Definatley isn't certain. SC is apperetly for it and, like Stanford, can make its own decision. Appernetly, SC, UCLA, Oregon and Colorado are the teams that have raised the issue with the BIG10.

 

[4-4-3]

The bubble can popped with one pen. Require the Us to co-sign on those student loans.

Good point, but . . .

That would require underwriting as any co-signer fully expects the actual borrower to be able to pay. They’re not co-signing in anticipation of being tapped for repayment but only because the lender requires additional security.

But then, how could the government even begin to underwrite this? On the basis of a student’s projected future earnings? A student who hasn’t even chosen a major or who may not even know the first thing about business or credit?

Even with the most promising students, there would be no way, outside of statistical modeling which can often get things extremely wrong, to establish who was and wasn’t a good risk.

And would our hopelessly debt-ridden government even wish to take on something like this? They shucked outright guarantees in 2010, did they not?

While the Left may want free education for EVERYONE and the Right may not want it for ANYONE, the burden of acquiring a higher education in this nominally LAISSEZ-FAIRE economy of ours should still lie with the individual. PROVIDED, HOWEVER, it’s a burden the average individual can meet. What good are our American ideals if WE CAN’T AFFORD THEM?

A saner solution would be to make state and local universities more affordable, including cutting back on a lot of the useless “country club” stuff they offer students, while at the same time chucking layers of ubiquitous “administrators” who studies have shown are as responsible as anything for driving up college costs.

Again, in my day, college administration wasn’t the often useless cottage industry it has become. There were far fewer of these people, and we all learned pretty quickly without them how to wipe our own backsides. Not having had a professional college nanny left no one, to my recollection, with PTSD.

As for elite schools, only students who can afford and/or garner scholarships to them should attend. When did it become a mandatory article of faith that every bright kid should wind up in the Ivy League or at Stanford or Vanderbilt? Or in some households, at Notre Dame? This is AMERICAN DREAM OVERKILL.

So, no.

Government guarantees – from a broke government – ensuring exorbitant cash flow for NOT-FOR-PROFIT inflation multipliers, so that they can continue to run their cloistered, self-referential FIEFDOMS even as they turn the average student into a DEBT-SLAVE? I don’t think that’s the answer. Make college more affordable for pocketbooks of all sizes while providing a diverse range of economic choices.

If certain jurisdictions wish to go tuition free, such as California and New York City once did, let them – as long as they can balance their books via their taxing powers. But this idea of overcharging and throwing into debt people who at the time they enroll in college are often minors – is PREDATORY.

 

[TDIrish27]

If these kids are so bright why did they go into hock to attend schools they couldn't afford ?

What exact caliber of weapon was held to their heads to make them take out these loans ?

Any young person who goes into debt to get a BA degree in the environment of today is anything but bright IMO.

 

[NDSMC78]

If these kids are so bright why did they go into hock to attend schools they couldn't afford ?

What exact caliber of weapon was held to their heads to make them take out these loans ?

Any young person who goes into debt to get a BA degree in the environment of today is anything but bright IMO.

Could not disagree more. What is wrong with learning for learning's sake? Must everything in life necessarily be directed toward money and nothing else? There are people all over this country getting degrees in history, English, languages, classics, sociology, etc., etc., etc. Some of them even have to take out loans in order to further their education.
For the record, I graduated from ND with a BA degree. I did just fine, thank you very much.