From 1988 to 1993 ND was where Ohio State is now, a top 5 team with talent, depth and coaching capable of winning the NC every year. Oddly enough neither Ohio State nor Alabama were anywhere near that level. Neither was USC though they sustained it for a similar timeframe in early 2000s. Alabama dominance will drop when Saban retires. Ohio State likely will too with coaching change. There was no meeting that occurred where ND decided to not be elite ... it’s just very difficult to stay elite, ask USC, Texas, Miami, FSU ... did they also de-emphasize football? NDs entire football history has been a story of coaches. Personally I love the combination of top academics and top football experience. Go Irish.
Stepp and Kelly and Father Jenkins r why we will always be average
- Thread starter theskibro
- Start date
There's no doubt that there's broad-based cyclicality in college football. And there's only one reason for it: there are only so many good coaches and players to go around.
Today, Bama, Clemson and OSU get the players. They also have the coaches. In the Holtz era, it was, at different times -- in addition to ND -- Miami, UM, Colorado, FSU and USC that dominated.
But that's just part of the story. ND did de-emphasize football. Twice. In the 50's after Leahy -- he'd gotten too powerful -- and in the 90's after Holtz -- who'd also gotten too powerful.
As I previously stated, I think ND has been both clever and reasonably successful in running a program that it WILL NOT ALLOW TO RUN AT FULL THROTTLE the way whoever the current powers of the day -- the ones with the better coaches and players -- are doing it.
Simply put, ND does not wish to DEBASE ITSELF as a university. Because that's EXACTLY what these other schools are doing. They're slimy.
Good on you, ND. No problem.
But for ND's fan base and, at times, its coach to talk about competing for NC's on an annual basis is LUDICROUS. As I've said, that ship has long since SAILED.
As for your love of the combination of top academics and a top football experience, you're probably one of a myriad of poster boys attesting to ND's success in retaining the loyalty of its fans, without any longer being able to claim realistically to be an annual NC contender.
In fact, you and others who feel similarly are irrefutable evidence of ND's having affected a dexterous shift towards lowered expectations from a SOLELY FOOTBALL PERSPECTIVE. You're not getting the same football product of those successful years in the 60's, 70's and 80's, but, then, you're getting a heightened academic experience.
If that suits you, it's a WIN/WIN for you and ND.
Cheer, cheer!
Thanks Bro, good summary, well expressed. Agree with most of what you wrote, I would just disagree that the 60s, 70s and 80s were glory years ... there were pockets of excellence ... 77 was an anomaly and I strongly believe that the QB position in CFB can make up for many other deficiencies ... as we’ve seen with Michael Vick, Vince Young, Jameis Winston, Trevor Lawrence, Kyler Murray, Joe Burrow ... if you have the best QB it makes a big difference and if you don’t good luck.
I agree with your QB argument, and I've a post on that very issue which I'm finishing up and will post over night. It will be on the BK and the QB . . . why thread.
The post discusses how and, to a certain extent, why ND no longer gets THOSE QB'S. And that's the rub as there's no better way to build a great football team than to constellate it around a great QB.
And, again, I see the difficulty here as ND's refusal to go full bore in its approach the way other schools do. The blue chip players want to go where there is the best opportunity and the chance to play with the best players.
That was Holtz's secret. He got all of those great players because he ALSO GOT all of those OTHER GREAT PLAYERS. It was nothing less than an elite unit of winners who saw themselves reflected in one another.
There are NO GREAT TEAMS without stockpiled talent.
Notre Dame still gets enough talent to be a presence in the playoff picture. Look at the two years ND went unbeaten. They made it to the national championship game one year, and they made it to the playoffs in the other year. Now that's not like Clemson or Alabama or Ohio State or even Oklahoma which have made regular appearances in the playoffs. However, the question needs to be asked. Why didn't Notre Dame reap the benefits of those appearances with better results in recruiting? Especially after the last appearance. Why hasn't 33-6 resulted in one, just ONE top 5 recruiting class? Now I understand Notre Dame cannot offer every kid ranked among the top 150 recruits because they probably would not qualify academically. However, they still offer some of those kids and some of those kids are game breakers on offense which this team desperately needs. Why aren't they closing the deal on the kids they can and do offer? They cannot miss on those kids. You have to have the people on your staff who can connect with those kids and close the deal. As a coach, Brian Kelly needs to bring in PROVEN offensive assistant coaches who can set these kids up for success on the field. He has hired a good defensive coordinator. Why not grab a top notch offensive coordinator who also can recruit or have great position coaches who also can recruit and close the deal with the elite talent. He needs an OC who might know more about what works offensively than he does, and that's tough when you're the head coach and offense is supposed to your forte, and I don't care that ND was 13th in scoring last year. They didn't get it done when they needed to against Georgia and Michigan. Kelly is going to get one more go round. If I'm him, I do everything I can, within the rules, to grab that natty. Having Rees calling plays and Quinn coaching O-Line won't get it done. He also needs to surround Buchner with talent that can step on the field and produce on Day One.
A few thoughts.
I don’t think you can get that A-List QB, first, because ND is not his preferred destination. It once was that kind of place but no longer. In fact, other than at OSU, you can’t get that QB anywhere in the upper tier of the country, except perhaps in the Pacific Northwest.
Second, if you don’t have an equally talented – and, I mean, as in across the board – supporting cast, why does that guy come? The last number-one ranked high school QB to come to ND was Clausen, I believe. How did that work out? For him, fine as a junior and senior, but his teams stank.
And given Kelly’s track record with QB’s – as in all of the talented guys – at least, on paper -- who didn’t pan out and/or left, such as Crist, Hendrix, Kiel, Golson, Wimbush and, now, Jurkovec -- doesn’t ND begin to look more like a GRAVEYARD for aspiring college QB’s rather than a place where they can flourish?
And can it be said that any of the 9 QB’s who have won the Heisman since Kelly arrived ever seriously considered ND? It would have been an almost unthinkable choice for any of them, right? They ALL wound up playing and winning the trophy at schools in the SOUTH.
What sort of sales pitch would Kelly and Tommy Rees have to employ to attract the next Trevor Lawrence, for instance? Especially, in view of Kelly’s inability to develop a consistent star at the position?
Personally, I think ND is doing pretty well when it can land QB’s on a level similar to the ones who play for schools, such as PSU, Wisconsin, Iowa, Pitt, MSU or Washington State (from which ND poached Book). Even the non-Clemson part of the ACC recruits QB’s as capable as ND’s.
In Kelly’s remaining time, I don’t see any of what you suggest happening. And who knows what the next coach will bring or what set of standards he will be subjected to? Don’t forget that things don’t have to keep getting better for ND. They could start reverting to what they were pre-Kelly.
Problem is, there’s no room for the football team to BREATHE, and any coach and/or prime set of players who want to take part in the kind of program Holtz produced and ran will not, in my opinion, find that environment at ND. Why after 30 years since the last NC would anything actually change unless it were ND’s ADMIN’S AVOWED, OVER-RIDING GOAL?
Do you actually see them flipping like that?
I honestly don’t.
