Stepp and Kelly and Father Jenkins r why we will always be average

[SIhoosier26]

Yea, I agree. That’s why last nights game bugged the hell out of me while watching, but quickly turned to cause for celebrating the W at game’s end.

Ultimately all that matters is the win, while we didn't play perfect we beat an underrated arch rival who played out of their minds. I knew the game was going to be closer than the 11 point spread. Nobody else on our schedule has the weapons USC has take advantage of our biggest weakness (our secondary).

You'll never see me complaining about a win over USC. No matter how much better one is than the other, those games are always close. Same goes for Michigan.

 

[Ara64]

Since 2017 ND currently stands at 27-5 .844 under BK 2.0. How well he's doing recruiting wise is shone on the field each Saturday of the season. He's efforts looks pretty good to me and getting better. He did Saturday night what fans here has been screaming for 9 years. He placed the game in the hands of the runners AND offensive line and they delivered the WIN. What does many here do? Gripe and complain! GOOD JOB coaches and LADS, you did one heck of a job Saturday Night. GOOD GAME. I appreciate your efforts. There efforts are far above mediocre.

 

[THUNDERSTRUCK111]

No u r wrong. While what you say is true it is only true because football enabled a tiny school in Indiana to grow. There is much to be proud of. Football saved this university. Ie
National recognition. And Navy subsidy during war years. Without that- toast

The truth

 

[SIhoosier26]

The truth

The truth that many want to avoid and I don't really get why.

 

[Zorich 88]

So tired of this garbage

Exhibit 1
Stepp should and countless others should be Irish. It is contrary to core principles of education to cherry pick athletes based on grades. Males mature late. They need an opportunity to grow and achieve. Jenkins denies recruits that opportunity. There must be exceptions for football recruits. If they can’t pass then dismiss them. But give them the chance to learn.
Imagine ND without Zurich, Ricky Waters and countless others who would never be accepted today. It’s bs. it’s wrong. And hypocritical. We are a football school. Anything else -/ and there is a lot of equity —. Has been accomplished on the foundation of football excellence.

Exhibit 2
Kelly will always suck. Our loss to FSU in Orlando Champ bowl, our loss to UGA weeks ago and our performance against usc are all examples of second half plan screwups by Kelly. We should have lost to USC We were that bad on coaching. Helton was better than Kelly. Let that sink in

Calling off the rush n giving a qb time to throw is typical Kelly. Buffoon

Exhibit 3

Father Jenkins is a wuss, a liberal WOKE masquerading as our President. Giving up our W’s from 2012, waffling on the Columbus murals in the Admin building, making it difficult for recruits to get accepted—. All signs of spineless leadership

He is an enabler if mediocrity

Kelly’s responsible for us being 8. A good coach would have us at 3-4

From this post I can tell you know very little about football.

My advice, go cheer for a different team. Go jump on someone else’s bandwagon.

If you cannot be happy with the current state of ND football, then it’s time for you to leave.

 

[Drinking The Green Koolaid]

It helped, but it didn’t make the university what it is which is what the op said. ND is not “a football school.”

If you will indulge the musings of an old guy, I think there is an element of truth to both positions that Notre Dame does/does not have an identity as a "football school." Certainly in the 1930s through the late 1960s, Notre Dame's identity was carved out as a football school. Yes, there were some excellent academic programs, but ND was not considered elite by anyone's measure. Beginning some time in the 1960s, Fr. Hesburgh actively sought to improve Notre Dame's standing in academia. Fr. Malloy and Fr. Jenkins consciously endeavored to continue with what Fr. Hesburgh had begun. I believe the admission of women, beginning in 1972, has gone a long way in making that a reality. When ND was an all-men's school, guys pretty much lived and died with the success of the football team. As guys, many of us with sports backgrounds, that's what we do.

But Notre Dame is a very different place now. It certainly has a much different standing in the academic world. Some of our undergraduate programs (such as business and architecture) are among the finest undergraduate programs in the country. And across the board, academics in other programs have upped their game. I have no doubt that what notredamerises23 says is true, i.e., many of our current student body could not care less about the success of our football team, and indeed many of them may know next to nothing about the team or the game.

I used to be a casual friend of Notre Dame's Director of Admissions. We'd play golf together from time to time. Over cocktails following the round, he would give me the latest statistics on Notre Dame's newest class. I had excellent SAT/ACT scores and a very high ranking in my HS class, but I was often left wondering whether I would ever have been admitted to today's Notre Dame. It certainly now has one of the most rigorous undergraduate programs in the country. While ND is likely never to reach the top tier of academia--Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, etc.--ND is not now and never will be a "football factory." But football plays a unique role in ND's legacy, and I for one hope it always stays that way. I also hope we find a way to admit a Chris Zorich or a Tony Rice from time to time. I don't want to see us admit marginally qualified students who simply see ND as a stepping stone to the NFL, but I hope there is still room under our tent for young student athletes who will be challenged at Notre Dame but go on to become valuable and contributing members of our communities.

 

[irish4life888]

If you will indulge the musings of an old guy, I think there is an element of truth to both positions that Notre Dame does/does not have an identity as a "football school." Certainly in the 1930s through the late 1960s, Notre Dame's identity was carved out as a football school. Yes, there were some excellent academic programs, but ND was not considered elite by anyone's measure. Beginning some time in the 1960s, Fr. Hesburgh actively sought to improve Notre Dame's standing in academia. Fr. Malloy and Fr. Jenkins consciously endeavored to continue with what Fr. Hesburgh had begun. I believe the admission of women, beginning in 1972, has gone a long way in making that a reality. When ND was an all-men's school, guys pretty much lived and died with the success of the football team. As guys, many of us with sports backgrounds, that's what we do.

But Notre Dame is a very different place now. It certainly has a much different standing in the academic world. Some of our undergraduate programs (such as business and architecture) are among the finest undergraduate programs in the country. And across the board, academics in other programs have upped their game. I have no doubt that what notredamerises23 says is true, i.e., many of our current student body could not care less about the success of our football team, and indeed many of them may know next to nothing about the team or the game.

I used to be a casual friend of Notre Dame's Director of Admissions. We'd play golf together from time to time. Over cocktails following the round, he would give me the latest statistics on Notre Dame's newest class. I had excellent SAT/ACT scores and a very high ranking in my HS class, but I was often left wondering whether I would ever have been admitted to today's Notre Dame. It certainly now has one of the most rigorous undergraduate programs in the country. While ND is likely never to reach the top tier of academia--Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, etc.--ND is not now and never will be a "football factory." But football plays a unique role in ND's legacy, and I for one hope it always stays that way. I also hope we find a way to admit a Chris Zorich or a Tony Rice from time to time. I don't want to see us admit marginally qualified students who simply see ND as a stepping stone to the NFL, but I hope there is still room under our tent for young student athletes who will be challenged at Notre Dame but go on to become valuable and contributing members of our communities.

Excellent Post! Thanks for sharing.

 

[notredamerises23]

If you will indulge the musings of an old guy, I think there is an element of truth to both positions that Notre Dame does/does not have an identity as a "football school." Certainly in the 1930s through the late 1960s, Notre Dame's identity was carved out as a football school. Yes, there were some excellent academic programs, but ND was not considered elite by anyone's measure. Beginning some time in the 1960s, Fr. Hesburgh actively sought to improve Notre Dame's standing in academia. Fr. Malloy and Fr. Jenkins consciously endeavored to continue with what Fr. Hesburgh had begun. I believe the admission of women, beginning in 1972, has gone a long way in making that a reality. When ND was an all-men's school, guys pretty much lived and died with the success of the football team. As guys, many of us with sports backgrounds, that's what we do.

Always nice to hear an alum’s views.

I had excellent SAT/ACT scores and a very high ranking in my HS class, but I was often left wondering whether I would ever have been admitted to today's Notre Dame.

I graduated just shy of 10 years ago, and you’re right sbout the admissions standards for the regular student body—they’ve increased exponentially at every elite university and Notre Dame is no different. If you take a look at admissions rates at Vanderbilt, Brown, Northwestern, etc., they’ve dropped by a solid 5%-7% across the board. When I look at my own high school resume, I see an average resume relative to 2019 ND standards compared to at least a 75th+ percentile resumé a decade ago.

 

[Buguit]

LOL

It must really suck being you...

These are the types of posts we've come to expect from this apologist, can't just disagree, has to be a douche about it, what's really ironic is that he is so often wrong trying to preach from his self made pulpit

 

[cj]

Bro, even I said Stepp woulda looked great in Blue an Gold last night......


Y’all acting like he’s Dexter Williams or CJ Procise...

Kids a solid back....

However as bare as they have been at RB , he barely has over 300 yards on his entire career at SC to this point.........

Trojan fan here...I don't post much as you can see from the stats...

Some clarification on Stepp's stats. He was a red shirt last year. His entire career thus far, is the 6 games played this year. He is #3 on our depth chart (to the dismay of almost every Trojan fan) - After 6 games, he has 35 carries for 241 yards....6.9 YPC.

He's a young man that does not get the ball as often as he should, but when he does, he rarely fails to disappoint.

At some point (I hope) - our coaches will realize what we have.

And by the way, congrats to all on this site for winning one helluva exciting game.

 

[Catholicfan95]

So tired of this garbage

Exhibit 1
Stepp should and countless others should be Irish. It is contrary to core principles of education to cherry pick athletes based on grades. Males mature late. They need an opportunity to grow and achieve. Jenkins denies recruits that opportunity. There must be exceptions for football recruits. If they can’t pass then dismiss them. But give them the chance to learn.
Imagine ND without Zurich, Ricky Waters and countless others who would never be accepted today. It’s bs. it’s wrong. And hypocritical. We are a football school. Anything else -/ and there is a lot of equity —. Has been accomplished on the foundation of football excellence.

Exhibit 2
Kelly will always suck. Our loss to FSU in Orlando Champ bowl, our loss to UGA weeks ago and our performance against usc are all examples of second half plan screwups by Kelly. We should have lost to USC We were that bad on coaching. Helton was better than Kelly. Let that sink in

Calling off the rush n giving a qb time to throw is typical Kelly. Buffoon

Exhibit 3

Father Jenkins is a wuss, a liberal WOKE masquerading as our President. Giving up our W’s from 2012, waffling on the Columbus murals in the Admin building, making it difficult for recruits to get accepted—. All signs of spineless leadership

He is an enabler if mediocrity

Kelly’s responsible for us being 8. A good coach would have us at 3-4

This is a bit extreme for my taste, sure there are some things that I would like to see change and grades are one of them. I think there is a way to change the way ND enrolls athletes without compromising its standards, I just think they are reluctant to do so.

It is hard to take you seriously when you post like a angry teenager. My suggestion is to figure out what you want to say and present it in a more rational and logical way. Its just super childish and attention seeking. Also sharpen your football IQ or just do not speak on things if you do not know anything about.

Your threads of negativity are getting exhausting, post/vent somewhere else.

 

[HarlemIrish]

If you will indulge the musings of an old guy, I think there is an element of truth to both positions that Notre Dame does/does not have an identity as a "football school." Certainly in the 1930s through the late 1960s, Notre Dame's identity was carved out as a football school. Yes, there were some excellent academic programs, but ND was not considered elite by anyone's measure. Beginning some time in the 1960s, Fr. Hesburgh actively sought to improve Notre Dame's standing in academia. Fr. Malloy and Fr. Jenkins consciously endeavored to continue with what Fr. Hesburgh had begun. I believe the admission of women, beginning in 1972, has gone a long way in making that a reality. When ND was an all-men's school, guys pretty much lived and died with the success of the football team. As guys, many of us with sports backgrounds, that's what we do.

But Notre Dame is a very different place now. It certainly has a much different standing in the academic world. Some of our undergraduate programs (such as business and architecture) are among the finest undergraduate programs in the country. And across the board, academics in other programs have upped their game. I have no doubt that what notredamerises23 says is true, i.e., many of our current student body could not care less about the success of our football team, and indeed many of them may know next to nothing about the team or the game.

I used to be a casual friend of Notre Dame's Director of Admissions. We'd play golf together from time to time. Over cocktails following the round, he would give me the latest statistics on Notre Dame's newest class. I had excellent SAT/ACT scores and a very high ranking in my HS class, but I was often left wondering whether I would ever have been admitted to today's Notre Dame. It certainly now has one of the most rigorous undergraduate programs in the country. While ND is likely never to reach the top tier of academia--Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, etc.--ND is not now and never will be a "football factory." But football plays a unique role in ND's legacy, and I for one hope it always stays that way. I also hope we find a way to admit a Chris Zorich or a Tony Rice from time to time. I don't want to see us admit marginally qualified students who simply see ND as a stepping stone to the NFL, but I hope there is still room under our tent for young student athletes who will be challenged at Notre Dame but go on to become valuable and contributing members of our communities.

Great read. You sound like my Dr. He graduated in the late 70’s. He doesn’t think he would be admitted today. I tell him that’s not what I want to hear before he treats me.

After those beatings against the top tier, I really woke up. Enjoy the wins & realize we are in a different era of CFB

 

[Drinking The Green Koolaid]

Great read. You sound like my Dr. He graduated in the late 70’s. He doesn’t think he would be admitted today. I tell him that’s not what I want to hear before he treats me.

After those beatings against the top tier, I really woke up. Enjoy the wins & realize we are in a different era of CFB

Thanks for the kind words, Harlem. I attended ND a few years before Dr. He, but know exactly how he feels! Not to worry, though, self deprecation in your treating physician is probably a good thing. You probably don't want him thinking he is God's gift to medicine!

One thing I am happy to say hasn't changed about ND is a certain sense of spirituality I feel every time I set foot on the campus. I can't put my finger on exactly what it is--and I don't want to sound too sappy about it--but there is a special feeling of being connected to something that has a higher purpose. Those of you who have had the privilege to attend ND will know what I speak of. I sense that same feeling when I talk to current students about what they are doing, and what they hope to do with their lives. ND is still a special place, even if the football isn't what it used to be. And you're absolutely right, we have to enjoy the wins when they come. I'm just hoping to see one more Natty before I shuffle off to the Big Golden Dome in the sky!

 

[theskibro]

Have you even stepped foot on ND's campus? You act like you know what's best for ND yet you clearly don't understand what it means to be a Notre Dame man.

Such crap. Of course I’ve been on campus numerous times and accepting mediocrity and losing big games is not what an ND Man is. Get real man. Grow a pair

 

[theskibro]

Oh cry a river.

I forgot more about this place in my left knee than you would ever THINK you know.

When you are successful at something people associate you with what you're successful for. No matter how much that might confuse you....you're just going to have to trust me that's the way it is.

What I find so ridiculously asinine is you actually act like that's a bad thing.

As if you can't be both? As if being revered globally in football makes ND a "cheap university " scholastically or somehow diminishes it's law studies.

The university loves cashing all those football revenue checks so they can have some of the top academic studies in the country via equipment, facilities, faculty et al.

One final note...
In case you didn't know or don't want to believe but for the last 35 years sports have taken to not only main stream but they're the ultimate stream.

Sport is everywhere. It's promoted, bought and sold more globally than any common sense could fathom.

Just remember NBC didn't give Notre Dame a fat check for exclusive home game broadcast rights because they've a real solid mechanical engineering program.

Well said. We have a great University and a good coach. Don’t tell me bs that the school would have achieved its greatness without our football program. Maybe now. But during the years 1917-1975 football paved the way for our reputation and was the seed money for academic greatness

Our coach is one of the best we have had and yet I know he lacks the magic necessary and flat out makes bad decisions in big games

 

[theskibro]

Sorry sir...

But you're the one who's wrong.

Just like your breakdown of QB play...

Yes ND has a great academic rep.... But I promise there are more people in the world that when they hear Notre Dame they think college football.

It's a name synonymous with football worldwide. The New York Yankees
Vince Lombardi
Paul Bear Bryant
Knute Rockne
Pop Warner
Super Bowl
World Series
Stanley Cup

These are all names and people immediately think of the sport they represent.

Notre Dame is no different.

While there are many people who think of it as a fine educational university, and it is, there are many many many more that think football across the globe.

Here's the point. What does it matter?

They aren't IVY league. Not even Partriot league.

They make so much money from their football brand name what's the problem?

Did ND the school look like shit because Chris Zorich was able to attend? Tony Rice?

I don't know about you but the university loves a good Rudy story, no? Yet apparently these days you can only attend if you're part of the south side soc clique because they just aren't accepting
Pony Boy Curtis any longer.

WTFE

Bingo

 

[theskibro]

Most of those responding here have seen the evolution of Ski’s posts over the past few years. Ski has been supportive of Kelly and acknowledged the program improvements on numerous occasions, but his support has waned with each passing butt kicking in games of critical importance. I believe he flipped to viewing Kelly in this somewhat negative light after the Miami deer in the lights butt whipping we took before a large national audience. Yes, the program is on solid footing, and yes we are making huge gains in the quality and depth of our players, and yes we have a great two year record and outstanding home game winning streak. Kelly has brought us to this point where we now expect a top ten ranking, with reasonable expectations for a shot at playing in the NC playoffs. To me, that is success and hardly the stuff of average. However, there’s no denying that we are a step behind the elite programs/ football factories, and the kind of sentiments expressed by FANS like Ski will warrant discussion until we at least win a playoff game and really compete for a championship.

The one guy who gets me AND Gets it

Always money, TelX is

He says it better than I ever can. And so many of you are quick to support the bs that Kelly consistently delivers in big games

He has not ever broken glass. I wish he could but he shoots himself in the foot

He has done sooo much right. And then he does stupid pet tricks in big time prime time

 

[DieHard_Irish]

Oh cry a river.

I forgot more about this place in my left knee than you would ever THINK you know.

When you are successful at something people associate you with what you're successful for. No matter how much that might confuse you....you're just going to have to trust me that's the way it is.

What I find so ridiculously asinine is you actually act like that's a bad thing.

As if you can't be both? As if being revered globally in football makes ND a "cheap university " scholastically or somehow diminishes it's law studies.

The university loves cashing all those football revenue checks so they can have some of the top academic studies in the country via equipment, facilities, faculty et al.

One final note...
In case you didn't know or don't want to believe but for the last 35 years sports have taken to not only main stream but they're the ultimate stream.

Sport is everywhere. It's promoted, bought and sold more globally than any common sense could fathom.

Just remember NBC didn't give Notre Dame a fat check for exclusive home game broadcast rights because they've a real solid mechanical engineering program.

You clearly didn't attend ND, as I did, so you keep on your talk track and continue to display how little you know

 

[theskibro]

You clearly didn't attend ND, as I did, so you keep on your talk track and continue to display how little you know

Yeah. If u attend ND u learn to ignore the head coach’s ineptitude in big games.
This happens between sophomore and junior year

It’s a gift no reasonable person would want

 

[88ND]

You clearly didn't attend ND, as I did, so you keep on your talk track and continue to display how little you know

You've no idea what the hell and who the hell you're talking to or about.

Not even the slightest.

You might want to believe the BS you say but I echo again...

Why do you feel there is some dark cloud that hangs over the university if more people recognize the name Notre Dame through football than studies.

If what you're saying is true and you attended then please tell me where this tunnel vision came from?

Do you feel Duke University is on par with Notre Dame academically?

There are some that might believe it's an even more revered secondary school than ND.

Again when someone hears Duke University I guarantee you more people think college basketball than academic program.

Lastly and repeatedly what exactly is the problem here?

If someone thinks sport before text book regarding that particular university does that somehow diminish said school academically?

Only in YOUR mind... possibly... because believe me when I tell you most people are capable of recognizing being great at football or basketball and great scholastically.

 

[notredamerises23]

You've no idea what the hell and who the hell you're talking to or about.

Not even the slightest.

You might want to believe the BS you say but I echo again...

Why do you feel there is some dark cloud that hangs over the university if more people recognize the name Notre Dame through football than studies.

If what you're saying is true and you attended then please tell me where this tunnel vision came from?

Do you feel Duke University is on par with Notre Dame academically?

There are some that might believe it's an even more revered secondary school than ND.

Again when someone hears Duke University I guarantee you more people think college basketball than academic program.

Lastly and repeatedly what exactly is the problem here?

If someone thinks sport before text book regarding that particular university does that somehow diminish said school academically?

Only in YOUR mind... possibly... because believe me when I tell you most people are capable of recognizing being great at football or basketball and great scholastically.

He said you didn’t attend Notre Dame, and then you go off on this rant.

“You've no idea what the hell and who the hell you're talking to or about.
Not even the slightest.”

So, did you attend Notre Dame or not?

 

[Drinking The Green Koolaid]

You've no idea what the hell and who the hell you're talking to or about.

Not even the slightest.

You might want to believe the BS you say but I echo again...

Why do you feel there is some dark cloud that hangs over the university if more people recognize the name Notre Dame through football than studies.

If what you're saying is true and you attended then please tell me where this tunnel vision came from?

Do you feel Duke University is on par with Notre Dame academically?

There are some that might believe it's an even more revered secondary school than ND.

Again when someone hears Duke University I guarantee you more people think college basketball than academic program.

Lastly and repeatedly what exactly is the problem here?

If someone thinks sport before text book regarding that particular university does that somehow diminish said school academically?

Only in YOUR mind... possibly... because believe me when I tell you most people are capable of recognizing being great at football or basketball and great scholastically.

I don't disagree with you that many people (and maybe most) recognize ND because of football. And I, for one, am OK with that even though, as I expressed in an earlier post on this thread, ND has substantially upgraded the quality and academic standing of its undergraduate programs.

But do you think Duke is still a valid comparison? Yes, Duke has excellent academics. And yes, Duke is probably recognized by most people because of its BB program. The difference I now see between ND and Duke is that Duke has fully embraced the "one and done" model for men's basketball, and by doing so has made a conscious decision to compromise the idea of what it means to be a student athlete at Duke. I am not being judgmental of that decision, because that is how the elite men's basketball programs conduct business these days. But I cannot see ND ever going down that road, in football or basketball. The challenges that academics pose on the football side have been discussed and debated ad nauseum here. On the BB side, I think Brey understands that he will never get any "one and done" guys at ND and has decided his program will be modeled on players who aren't going to be elite NBA players--let's be honest, we will never see a guy like Zion W at ND--but will be at ND for 4 years and maybe he can put a team together of seasoned, smart players who can somehow manage to play together as a unit and get the job done. It almost worked in 2016.

 

[88ND]

I don't disagree with you that many people (and maybe most) recognize ND because of football. And I, for one, am OK with that even though, as I expressed in an earlier post on this thread, ND has substantially upgraded the quality and academic standing of its undergraduate programs.

But do you think Duke is still a valid comparison? Yes, Duke has excellent academics. And yes, Duke is probably recognized by most people because of its BB program. The difference I now see between ND and Duke is that Duke has fully embraced the "one and done" model for men's basketball, and by doing so has made a conscious decision to compromise the idea of what it means to be a student athlete at Duke. I am not being judgmental of that decision, because that is how the elite men's basketball programs conduct business these days. But I cannot see ND ever going down that road, in football or basketball. The challenges that academics pose on the football side have been discussed and debated ad nauseum here. On the BB side, I think Brey understands that he will never get any "one and done" guys at ND and has decided his program will be modeled on players who aren't going to be elite NBA players--let's be honest, we will never see a guy like Zion W at ND--but will be at ND for 4 years and maybe he can put a team together of seasoned, smart players who can somehow manage to play together as a unit and get the job done. It almost worked in 2016.

Don't blame Duke on that one...blame the NBA.

Having said that it's not even the issue.

I merely argued someones point in their implication ND is reputed as an educational university first and foremost and way in the back seat is someone who thinks football when they hear ND.

That's just not true.
As with Duke there are more people who simply think sport... Football in the case of ND.... Than those who get all giddy about the academic prowess.

I echo again WTF does it matter?

Please explain how the hell it diminishes the university academically?

It doesn't. If anything it actually raises the university spotlight.

A kid that has no interest in sport is going to overhear the word Notre Dame or Duke from his peers. How can he not.

You might not in your head but do you think the University uses sport as a spring board for attention, money etc ?

Damn straight they do!

 

[Syd4ND]

So tired of this garbage

Exhibit 1
Stepp should and countless others should be Irish. It is contrary to core principles of education to cherry pick athletes based on grades. Males mature late. They need an opportunity to grow and achieve. Jenkins denies recruits that opportunity. There must be exceptions for football recruits. If they can’t pass then dismiss them. But give them the chance to learn.
Imagine ND without Zurich, Ricky Waters and countless others who would never be accepted today. It’s bs. it’s wrong. And hypocritical. We are a football school. Anything else -/ and there is a lot of equity —. Has been accomplished on the foundation of football excellence.

Exhibit 2
Kelly will always suck. Our loss to FSU in Orlando Champ bowl, our loss to UGA weeks ago and our performance against usc are all examples of second half plan screwups by Kelly. We should have lost to USC We were that bad on coaching. Helton was better than Kelly. Let that sink in

Calling off the rush n giving a qb time to throw is typical Kelly. Buffoon

Exhibit 3

Father Jenkins is a wuss, a liberal WOKE masquerading as our President. Giving up our W’s from 2012, waffling on the Columbus murals in the Admin building, making it difficult for recruits to get accepted—. All signs of spineless leadership

He is an enabler if mediocrity

Kelly’s responsible for us being 8. A good coach would have us at 3-4

Tony Jones is the same guy BTW.

 

[nemeth#5]

I only read the OP..... and could only think of this.

 

[Drinking The Green Koolaid]

Don't blame Duke on that one...blame the NBA.

Having said that it's not even the issue.

I merely argued someones point in their implication ND is reputed as an educational university first and foremost and way in the back seat is someone who thinks football when they hear ND.

That's just not true.
As with Duke there are more people who simply think sport... Football in the case of ND.... Than those who get all giddy about the academic prowess.

I echo again WTF does it matter?

Please explain how the hell it diminishes the university academically?

It doesn't. If anything it actually raises the university spotlight.

A kid that has no interest in sport is going to overhear the word Notre Dame or Duke from his peers. How can he not.

You might not in your head but do you think the University uses sport as a spring board for attention, money etc ?

Damn straight they do!

I don't think it tarnishes ND's academic reputation to be recognized for our football program, though some may feel differently. And there is no doubt that universities use sports programs to attract new students and money (or at least tacitly support the idea), ND included.

I disagree with you that Duke's decision to embrace the "one and done" model is an NBA problem. That is purely a decision that Duke made. Perhaps in this day and age that is a non sequitur for many, but I see it as a distinction with a difference. Not because it allows ND to take a "more holier than thou" position vis-à-vis Duke, but because it shows me that ND has taken a principled stand on whether athletes who attend ND are expected to be students as well.

 

[88ND]

I don't think it tarnishes ND's academic reputation to be recognized for our football program, though some may feel differently. And there is no doubt that universities use sports programs to attract new students and money (or at least tacitly support the idea), ND included.

I disagree with you that Duke's decision to embrace the "one and done" model is an NBA problem. That is purely a decision that Duke made. Perhaps in this day and age that is a non sequitur for many, but I see it as a distinction with a difference. Not because it allows ND to take a "more holier than thou" position vis-à-vis Duke, but because it shows me that ND has taken a principled stand on whether athletes who attend ND are expected to be students as well.

But you can't even compare until the NFL changes it's minimums and then and only then could we see what ND would do.

Duke's decision is their decision... And I'm just spitballing here but if they didn't oblige the one and done they'd be on the outside looking in with many high ability players.

Now only they can weigh the benefits and drawbacks to such....

But we as the football school don't have that problem...

Having said that if you really want to compare the closest thing we have have are juniors leaving for the NFL... In which case we do in fact have several players that sought to forego their last years of eligibility to get a paycheck.

We aren't quite above all this as much as some think.

 

[Drinking The Green Koolaid]

But you can't even compare until the NFL changes it's minimums and then and only then could we see what ND would do.

Duke's decision is their decision... And I'm just spitballing here but if they didn't oblige the one and done they'd be on the outside looking in with many high ability players.

Now only they can weigh the benefits and drawbacks to such....

But we as the football school don't have that problem...

Having said that if you really want to compare the closest thing we have have are juniors leaving for the NFL... In which case we do in fact have several players that sought to forego their last years of eligibility to get a paycheck.

We aren't quite above all this as much as some think.

You're right, Duke's decision is Duke's decision. That is precisely the point I was making (or tried to). You're probably also right that without acceding to the "one and done" rule, Duke wouldn't get any of the top HS players. And so they made their bed and let Coach K roll with it.

I am not privy to what ND's Admin and Fr. Jenkins have told Brey, but I strongly suspect they have told him he isn't going to be allowed to accept one and done recruits, assuming for the moment that he could find a player of that caliber willing to consider ND. (FWIW, Brey has previously said he thinks the "one and done" rule will be gone soon, with HS players who want to enter the NBA going into a "G" League, instead of the charade under the current system of them being admitted to college as student athletes: https://notredame.rivals.com/news/mike-brey-one-and-done-to-be-gone-by-2020)

I don't see the NFL changing their eligibility requirements anytime soon, if for no other reason that a kid one year out of high school isn't physically developed enough to play in the NFL. That is just human physiology.

Yes, ND has had a few FB players leave after their junior years; Jaylon Smith and Josh Adams readily come to mind, but both of them returned to ND to complete their degrees. How many Duke "one and done" BB players do you think have returned to finish their degrees? I have no information on that, but I suspect "very few" or "none" is the answer. While ND admits FB players with the knowledge that they may leave after their junior years (assuming the NFL grants the player's request to enter the draft), the expectation is that they will complete their degree program. That is not the expectation with one and done players. In addition, ND has never had "jock" majors and requires FB players to satisfy the same core curriculum requirements that all freshman must meet. So I stand by my contention that, for better or worse, ND has made a principled decision to adhere to the concept of the student athlete. Duke cannot say that anymore.

 

[Patrirish]

Sorry sir...

But you're the one who's wrong.

Just like your breakdown of QB play...

Yes ND has a great academic rep.... But I promise there are more people in the world that when they hear Notre Dame they think college football.

It's a name synonymous with football worldwide. The New York Yankees
Vince Lombardi
Paul Bear Bryant
Knute Rockne
Pop Warner
Super Bowl
World Series
Stanley Cup

These are all names and people immediately think of the sport they represent.

Notre Dame is no different.

While there are many people who think of it as a fine educational university, and it is, there are many many many more that think football across the globe.

Here's the point. What does it matter?

They aren't IVY league. Not even Partriot league.

They make so much money from their football brand name what's the problem?

Did ND the school look like shit because Chris Zorich was able to attend? Tony Rice?

I don't know about you but the university loves a good Rudy story, no? Yet apparently these days you can only attend if you're part of the south side soc clique because they just aren't accepting
Pony Boy Curtis any longer.

WTFE

U.S. News ranked ND # 15.
Forbes ranked ND # 18

I don’t think you’ll find the Patriot league ranked higher.

As to recognition, it depends upon whether or not you’re a sports fan.
If you are, then football is the lead in.
If you’re not, then academics is the lead in.

You don’t speak for the general population when it comes to assessing perception. Your perception is only your perception.

As to attending, ND’s freshman classes are probably far more diverse today than they were 20, 40 and 60 years ago.

You may want to look at the average test scores of the incoming classes.

 

[88ND]

You're right, Duke's decision is Duke's decision. That is precisely the point I was making (or tried to). You're probably also right that without acceding to the "one and done" rule, Duke wouldn't get any of the top HS players. And so they made their bed and let Coach K roll with it.

I am not privy to what ND's Admin and Fr. Jenkins have told Brey, but I strongly suspect they have told him he isn't going to be allowed to accept one and done recruits, assuming for the moment that he could find a player of that caliber willing to consider ND. (FWIW, Brey has previously said he thinks the "one and done" rule will be gone soon, with HS players who want to enter the NBA going into a "G" League, instead of the charade under the current system of them being admitted to college as student athletes: https://notredame.rivals.com/news/mike-brey-one-and-done-to-be-gone-by-2020)

I don't see the NFL changing their eligibility requirements anytime soon, if for no other reason that a kid one year out of high school isn't physically developed enough to play in the NFL. That is just human physiology.

Yes, ND has had a few FB players leave after their junior years; Jaylon Smith and Josh Adams readily come to mind, but both of them returned to ND to complete their degrees. How many Duke "one and done" BB players do you think have returned to finish their degrees? I have no information on that, but I suspect "very few" or "none" is the answer. While ND admits FB players with the knowledge that they may leave after their junior years (assuming the NFL grants the player's request to enter the draft), the expectation is that they will complete their degree program. That is not the expectation with one and done players. In addition, ND has never had "jock" majors and requires FB players to satisfy the same core curriculum requirements that all freshman must meet. So I stand by my contention that, for better or worse, ND has made a principled decision to adhere to the concept of the student athlete. Duke cannot say that anymore.

Does ND get the one and done BASKETBALL player? I mean when it really comes down to it we aren't in the running for that type of basketnall athlete.

Having said that let's hypothetically say ND did get that type of player. Once in a blue moon type of player.
There is nothing whatsoever the university can do to stop said player. It's not a fortress or a prison.

Now they can go into the recruiting process with the intention of getting a player who w8ll stay more than one year but again they've no control over ultimately what the player chooses to do.

We are not a basketball school so this particular subject wouldn't come up regardless....but we are in fact a football school....

I echo again this is apples and oranges.

The NFL doesn't allow one and done players. They just make that policy because more than half aren't ready to play a physical sport against grown men.

The NFL has no age minimum but it's based on 3 years removed from high school.

When appropriate or receiving bad advice we have football players who leave early looking for the day check.

If the NFL ever went to a one and done in football... You can be thankful they never will due to player saftey.... At that point we'd know what ND would do with such a decision.

We've players leave early now so I'd bet we'd have players that leave early then too. Again, you can't keep them under lock and key. You can't see the future with what said player will want to do if he's eligible to play professionally.

Brey doesn't really have to deal with the one and done because he's not getting that kid anyways.

Let me ask you a question.

If Zion had said to Brey...Mr. Brey I only want to play basketball for Notre Dame. Every school has offered me but I'd like to play for you. I'm not sure if I'll leave early or stay all 4 years.

For the sake of argument let's say he'd have no trouble getting into ND. Would Brey actually say to the kid, I'm sorry, but I think you will leave after 1 season so no thanks.

He can't predict a future unless the future is already decided for him. As in the players interested in ND basketball which is a secondary basketball school wouldn't be one and done talent.

Football on the other hand is already decided by the NFL but even with that decision we still have players leave early for a pay check.

Do most return for a degree? Sure, but that's the nature of it that extends way beyond ND. A lot if players at many upon many schools return at some point for their degree. That's not just a ND thing.

It's a common sense thing because most students by year three have already completed well over 75 percent of their requirement for graduation.

One and done players are still miles from returning for a degree.

I've no idea how many one and done players return for a degree or keep working on it to actually graduate and you don't either.

The main point to all this is the dark cloud this puts on the school or not.

Does Zion place some dark cloud over Duke and really make Duke look like a basketball school or was that cemented in place by Coach K success long before the one and done existed?

Do the football players that leave early present day make ND look like a football school as a whole...or the countless titles and success of yesteryear did that?

Did admitting Chris Zorich and Tony Rice hurt the reputation of ND as a whole?

Bullshit !!!

Actually the school should be kissing their ass because they helped ND get the NBC home game contract that the school dearly enjoys the benefits, no?!?

Without ND what does Chris Zorich do with his life?

That's a tremendous story and we all know ND loves it's hallmark stories.

 

[Drinking The Green Koolaid]

Does ND get the one and done BASKETBALL player? I mean when it really comes down to it we aren't in the running for that type of basketnall athlete.

Having said that let's hypothetically say ND did get that type of player. Once in a blue moon type of player.
There is nothing whatsoever the university can do to stop said player. It's not a fortress or a prison.

Now they can go into the recruiting process with the intention of getting a player who w8ll stay more than one year but again they've no control over ultimately what the player chooses to do.

We are not a basketball school so this particular subject wouldn't come up regardless....but we are in fact a football school....

I echo again this is apples and oranges.

The NFL doesn't allow one and done players. They just make that policy because more than half aren't ready to play a physical sport against grown men.

The NFL has no age minimum but it's based on 3 years removed from high school.

When appropriate or receiving bad advice we have football players who leave early looking for the day check.

If the NFL ever went to a one and done in football... You can be thankful they never will due to player saftey.... At that point we'd know what ND would do with such a decision.

We've players leave early now so I'd bet we'd have players that leave early then too. Again, you can't keep them under lock and key. You can't see the future with what said player will want to do if he's eligible to play professionally.

Brey doesn't really have to deal with the one and done because he's not getting that kid anyways.

Let me ask you a question.

If Zion had said to Brey...Mr. Brey I only want to play basketball for Notre Dame. Every school has offered me but I'd like to play for you. I'm not sure if I'll leave early or stay all 4 years.

For the sake of argument let's say he'd have no trouble getting into ND. Would Brey actually say to the kid, I'm sorry, but I think you will leave after 1 season so no thanks.

He can't predict a future unless the future is already decided for him. As in the players interested in ND basketball which is a secondary basketball school wouldn't be one and done talent.

Football on the other hand is already decided by the NFL but even with that decision we still have players leave early for a pay check.

Do most return for a degree? Sure, but that's the nature of it that extends way beyond ND. A lot if players at many upon many schools return at some point for their degree. That's not just a ND thing.

It's a common sense thing because most students by year three have already completed well over 75 percent of their requirement for graduation.

One and done players are still miles from returning for a degree.

I've no idea how many one and done players return for a degree or keep working on it to actually graduate and you don't either.

The main point to all this is the dark cloud this puts on the school or not.

Does Zion place some dark cloud over Duke and really make Duke look like a basketball school or was that cemented in place by Coach K success long before the one and done existed?

Do the football players that leave early present day make ND look like a football school as a whole...or the countless titles and success of yesteryear did that?

Did admitting Chris Zorich and Tony Rice hurt the reputation of ND as a whole?

Bullshit !!!

Actually the school should be kissing their ass because they helped ND get the NBC home game contract that the school dearly enjoys the benefits, no?!?

Without ND what does Chris Zorich do with his life?

That's a tremendous story and we all know ND loves it's hallmark stories.

Whoa there, 88ND, I don't think I pissed in your cheerios, did I? In fact, I don't disagree with you on many of the points you made earlier. In reply to your current post, of course Zion does not place a "dark cloud" over Duke. I never suggested that he did, so I am not sure about the point you are making. He is a generational talent and by everything I have seen, a really good kid. The hypothetical you advance where Zion tells Brey he wants to play for ND but will only play one year is fanciful. I don't know what Brey would say, if that ever happened. The point I was trying to make is that I believe (although I admittedly don't know for a fact) that Brey has been told by ND's administration is that he isn't permitted to actively recruit one and dones. That's all. If a kid tells Brey that he plans to come to ND for 4 years and then changes his mind and decides to leave early, you're right, ND is not a gulag and there is nothing ND can do about that. In fact, I would hope they would fully support the kid's decision.

I did not and do not suggest that Duke being known as a basketball school is a bad thing. Just as it doesn't bother me in the least that when people hear the name Notre Dame, they think about ND's football tradition. So there is no dark cloud to that, either.

As for your examples of Chris Zorich and Tony Rice being admitted to ND, I am already on record (in this thread or perhaps another one) saying I hope ND's admissions finds a way to admit kids like them from time to time. So of course I don't believe their admission to ND hurt ND's reputation. I'm not advocating that ND make a wholesale change to their admissions requirements and have a different set of rules that apply to football recruits, but I think it is ok to make exceptions from time to time based on the particular circumstances of the kid they are recruiting.

Based on some of your other posts I think it is fair to say you enjoy stirring the pot a little bit, but it seems like you want to pick a fight with me for the sake of picking a fight, and you are making straw man arguments to argue points with me where I don't think we disagree in the first place.

 

[88ND]

Whoa there, 88ND, I don't think I pissed in your cheerios, did I? In fact, I don't disagree with you on many of the points you made earlier. In reply to your current post, of course Zion does not place a "dark cloud" over Duke. I never suggested that he did, so I am not sure about the point you are making. He is a generational talent and by everything I have seen, a really good kid. The hypothetical you advance where Zion tells Brey he wants to play for ND but will only play one year is fanciful. I don't know what Brey would say, if that ever happened. The point I was trying to make is that I believe (although I admittedly don't know for a fact) that Brey has been told by ND's administration is that he isn't permitted to actively recruit one and dones. That's all. If a kid tells Brey that he plans to come to ND for 4 years and then changes his mind and decides to leave early, you're right, ND is not a gulag and there is nothing ND can do about that. In fact, I would hope they would fully support the kid's decision.

I did not and do not suggest that Duke being known as a basketball school is a bad thing. Just as it doesn't bother me in the least that when people hear the name Notre Dame, they think about ND's football tradition. So there is no dark cloud to that, either.

As for your examples of Chris Zorich and Tony Rice being admitted to ND, I am already on record (in this thread or perhaps another one) saying I hope ND's admissions finds a way to admit kids like them from time to time. So of course I don't believe their admission to ND hurt ND's reputation. I'm not advocating that ND make a wholesale change to their admissions requirements and have a different set of rules that apply to football recruits, but I think it is ok to make exceptions from time to time based on the particular circumstances of the kid they are recruiting.

Based on some of your other posts I think it is fair to say you enjoy stirring the pot a little bit, but it seems like you want to pick a fight with me for the sake of picking a fight, and you are making straw man arguments to argue points with me where I don't think we disagree in the first place.

You obviously don't know the tone of text because nobody was picking a fight...with anybody.

A different poster chimed in earlier and clearly stated ND is known across the globe more because of academics than sport.

My response to that was bullshit.

Whether he or she wants to believe that it not its just factual that more people in this world when they hear Notre Dame think of American football before they think Law degree or mechanical engineering.

Sport for the last 40 years is promoted at an insane rate. Why? $$$$$$

NBC didn't offer ND a sweet TV contract because of studies and to act like the football program is in the backseat and means very little is total bullshit.

ND is where they are today thanks to football.

When ND is said more of the masses think football before prestigious studies.

The bigger point to this is a previous poster wants to drive home a point that ND isn't a football factory with implication that stressing on football too much is such a bad thing for the university. As if it drags down the luster of the academic rep.

Again to which I say bullshit.

Nobody hear cited allowing any and all players into the school but this holier than thou and elitist attitude is ridiculous.

 

[Drinking The Green Koolaid]

You obviously don't know the tone of text because nobody was picking a fight...with anybody.

A different poster chimed in earlier and clearly stated ND is known across the globe more because of academics than sport.

My response to that was bullshit.

Whether he or she wants to believe that it not its just factual that more people in this world when they hear Notre Dame think of American football before they think Law degree or mechanical engineering.

Sport for the last 40 years is promoted at an insane rate. Why? $$$$$$

NBC didn't offer ND a sweet TV contract because of studies and to act like the football program is in the backseat and means very little is total bullshit.

ND is where they are today thanks to football.

When ND is said more of the masses think football before prestigious studies.

The bigger point to this is a previous poster wants to drive home a point that ND isn't a football factory with implication that stressing on football too much is such a bad thing for the university. As if it drags down the luster of the academic rep.

Again to which I say bullshit.

Nobody hear cited allowing any and all players into the school but this holier than thou and elitist attitude is ridiculous.

I think calling "bullshit" on someone is a little bit combative, but I guess that is just a generational thing. And when you reply to a post I made by quoting it before your response, I thought it was fair to assume that your comments were directed at me, but now you have explained that it was directed to the discussion generally. Thanks for clarifying. I think we can lay this one to rest.

 

[88ND]

I think calling "bullshit" on someone is a little bit combative, but I guess that is just a generational thing. And when you reply to a post I made by quoting it before your response, I thought it was fair to assume that your comments were directed at me, but now you have explained that it was directed to the discussion generally. Thanks for clarifying. I think we can lay this one to rest.

Funny...
I used to think being thin skinned was a generational thing until some of my older generation defied that with fragile feelings.

I don't sugarcoat anything.

Nothing to do with generation.

 

[W8LNXYR]

The TRUTH is ND is ranked 8th, was in the CFP last year & finished top 5.
ND is 17-2 the last two seasons & currently has the #1 class in 2021.

Thats the truth.

You are butt hurt ND is successful. Truth.

LOL 2021 recruiting. Come on. Nobody has committed yet. ND is #3 on 247 composite with 0 Five star, 7 Four star. That’s not going to hold up.

 

[W8LNXYR]

NDAFArly said: ↑
The TRUTH is ND is ranked 8th, was in the CFP last year & finished top 5.
ND is 17-2 the last two seasons & currently has the #1 class in 2021.

Thats the truth.

You are butt hurt ND is successful. Truth.

LOL 2021 recruiting. Come on. Nobody has committed yet. ND is #3 on 247 composite with 0 Five star, 7 Four star. That’s not going to hold up.

This is not aging well. You still feel good about 2021 recruiting NDAFArly?

 

[Shulkswagen]

Funny...
I used to think being thin skinned was a generational thing until some of my older generation defied that with fragile feelings.

I don't sugarcoat anything.

Nothing to do with generation.

I don’t think he’s thin skinned, he’s just respectful and classy.

 

[Golson5]

NDAFArly said: ↑
The TRUTH is ND is ranked 8th, was in the CFP last year & finished top 5.
ND is 17-2 the last two seasons & currently has the #1 class in 2021.

Thats the truth.

You are butt hurt ND is successful. Truth.




This is not aging well. You still feel good about 2021 recruiting NDAFArly?

Weak attempt. Everyone knows covid changed everything

 

[4-4-3]

So tired of this garbage

Exhibit 1
Stepp should and countless others should be Irish. It is contrary to core principles of education to cherry pick athletes based on grades. Males mature late. They need an opportunity to grow and achieve. Jenkins denies recruits that opportunity. There must be exceptions for football recruits. If they can’t pass then dismiss them. But give them the chance to learn.
Imagine ND without Zurich, Ricky Waters and countless others who would never be accepted today. It’s bs. it’s wrong. And hypocritical. We are a football school. Anything else -/ and there is a lot of equity —. Has been accomplished on the foundation of football excellence.

Exhibit 2
Kelly will always suck. Our loss to FSU in Orlando Champ bowl, our loss to UGA weeks ago and our performance against usc are all examples of second half plan screwups by Kelly. We should have lost to USC We were that bad on coaching. Helton was better than Kelly. Let that sink in

Calling off the rush n giving a qb time to throw is typical Kelly. Buffoon

Exhibit 3

Father Jenkins is a wuss, a liberal WOKE masquerading as our President. Giving up our W’s from 2012, waffling on the Columbus murals in the Admin building, making it difficult for recruits to get accepted—. All signs of spineless leadership

He is an enabler if mediocrity

Kelly’s responsible for us being 8. A good coach would have us at 3-4

They backed away from football excellence after Holtz and aimed instead, for football respectability.

Given how the game was proceeding -- the enticements to recruits, the gifts, the light to nil academic requirements -- they reckoned there was no way to compete, year-on-year, with the SEC, etc.

Frankly, they had to make a choice. They went with academics and and the hoped for capacity to compete occasionally at the highest levels.

Which since Kelly arrived, they've pretty much accomplished. Although when pitted against the very best teams, they've either been not quite up to the task or badly exposed.

But, in no sense, is ND, a football school any longer. It's a LEGACY FOOTBALL school. ND's day as the nation's premier program -- which it was in the 40 years between 1913 and 1953 has simply passed.

In the decade of the 1900's Yale went 100-4-5, i.e. better than Rockne. And they did it with multiple coaches. The Carlisle Indians under Pop Warner were also an early 20th century power.

Fordham was a consistent force in the 20's and, later, in the 30's, under Four Horseman, Jim Crowley. Back in the mists, ND went 0-4 against the University of Chicago. In fact, ND NEVER BEAT Chicago and, of course, never will.

The Parseghian/Devine and Holtz restorations were nice reprises, but as it turned out, UNSUSTAINABLE. Not when the Administration isn't 100% fully committed to football UBER ALLES.

For what ND aspires to be, Kelly -- particularly for a guy like Swarbrick -- is the IDEAL coach. Against the kind of watered down schedule ND now plays, Kelly stands a good chance of getting those 9 to 11 victories and maybe making it to the playoffs every five or six years.

Very respectable, right?

But ND, the annual NC contender? That's just SMOKE and LOST CAUSISM, with boards like this having more in common with defenders of the Confederate battle flag than some kind of realistic football mission.

This notion that ND will somehow RISE AGAIN? Pure hogwash.

Once we boomers die off -- and I'm old enough to remember Leahy -- there won't even be much debate over the question of ND's 2nd-tier status. Because, by then, that status will be so ingrained, ND football will exist in people's minds only as that which it became after Holtz.

But trust me, there was NO WAY this wasn't going to happen. And there's NO WAY it will ever be reversed. ND decided its mission was to compete more with the Harvard Crimson than with the Crimson Tide.

BTW, sorry for the pain this is causing you. If I were you, I'd pick up a backup school to root for. One committed to and capable of winning the way ND used to. Save yourself a lot of grief. I guaranty you no one is gnashing their teeth at ND over the current state of the program.

They're happy merely SIMULATING excellence and, so far, GETTING AWAY WITH IT.

 

[4-4-3]

You should know better than speaking the truth on this message board!

This is the sunshine pumping, establishment propaganda board! Here we celebrate thirty years without a national championship and a Heisman trophy and blame all losses on weather and academics.

Now put your blinders on and stop causing problems by exposing the bill of goods we’ve been served by the corrupt ND establishment.

Essentially, college football raised the ante, and ND folded.

But it had no choice in my view. There was no way a bunch of Ivy-League envying priests and all-too-self-conscious, hyper-conservative Catholics were going to sully themselves by becoming a FOOTBALL FACTORY.

So, they lowered the bar, fumbled around with the wrong coaches for awhile, then finally came up with the Kelly/semi-ACC-affiliation/watered down schedule formula, wherein the team would stand a very good chance of winning -- best case -- 75% of its games.

A 75% standard would have been considered, up until 1953, extremely LACKLUSTER, but after Brennan, Kuharich, Devore and Faust, it could have been massively worse if not for Ara, Devine and Holtz.

What I give ND great credit for is in its having reverse-engineered itself back to RESPECTABILITY. The program simply doesn't have the horses -- the result of post-Holtz decisions -- to be dominant. But for what it seeks to accomplish, I think it's been extremely clever in its approach.

Remember, legitimate competition for an NC on an annual basis is not a SERIOUS GOAL but rather a LOST CAUSE BATTLE CRY in the hope of someday stumbling into Cinderella's slipper. In the meantime, the program is winning enough games to be more than presentable.

To be sure, the fans are getting a watered down product compared to the Ara, Devine and Holtz years. But, then, they're also getting used to it and will become even more used to it over time.